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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Anglesey => Topic started by: Cajondy on Saturday 04 October 08 01:28 BST (UK)
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Hi there
can anyone help me please - before I go totally bonkers (maybe it's too late!!)
I'm trying to find out more about my grt grt grandparents .
Only info I have is as follows
1901 Margaret living Bangor - widow - shows her place of birth as Denbigh Pentrefoelas
15/08/1900 Meshach passed away - son JRW present at time of death
1892 (son's wedding certificate) Bangor
1891 (census) Bangor - shows Meshach's place of birth as Anglesey, Almwch
1881 (census) Bangor
1865 married at parish church of Amlwch 21st June (have marriage certificate which shows father as being HEnry Williams and John Hussey Bugh respectively)
I've found some census records for 1871, 1861, 1851, & 1841 census records for Meshach with parents Henry & Margaret - but not 100% sure it's the right one! Sourced middle name for Meshach of Anwyl on familysearch - with Henry & Margaret as parents and his christening date as being 5th dec 1840 - but again, can't validate 100% same one yet (so many Williams!)...
Have several possible siblings from 1841 - 1871 census records - but really need to validate his parents through birth certificate before assuming it's the right parents - anfd that's where I get very stuck
I found one possible birth certificate, but when I applied to it the records office came back to say they couldn't trace it from the ref I provided!!
Can anyone please help me locate irth certificate details, parents (and their ancestry / roots) and grave - I assume in Bangor - of Meshach and Margaret
With regards Margaret - the only details I can find for her - other than marriage certificate and 1881, 1891, and 1901 census is: 1861 census was dairy maid (aged 17) working for Ellen Roberts a hotel keeper in Market Sq Almwch, Anglesey - shows her as being born in Denbighshire
thanks to anyone who can help
regards
Cajondy
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Hello Cajondy,
firstly you say you have Meshach with parents in 1871- he is with Margaret at RG10; Piece: 5747; Folio: 38; Page: 1.
1861 gives a year of birth as 1841 and he is transcribed as Michael but can be seen as Meshach on census.
1851 born 1840 transcribed as Meseck.
Henry is a carpenter as is Meshach later - does this agree on marriage certificates - if so then I would say you have the right one on censuses.
Family Search has Mesech Anwyl as you say and this is supported by other children from family but not all.
I can't see a birth at all unless he is registered as 'male' ?
I realise I have just reiterated what you already have but I am trying to support the notion that you are not 'bonkers' (yet) !
I think you have the right family with Henry and Margaret.
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just remembered I need to search with Anglesey as county rather than district - is this the birth?
Measac Williams Anglesey vol 27 pg 339
Having trouble with Margaret - there is a Margaret Bouch- father John but also, which is quite interesting there are some births (father Walter) for Hussey DeBurgh on Family Search which may be helpful ???
The Hussey De Burghs seem to be landed gentry from Ireland - you would imagine that somewhere there must be a connection.
What was John's occupation on marriage certificate?
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hi there
thanks so much for helping me confirm I'm not quite bonkers yet - it was a close call!
The occupation for John Hussey Burgh on the marriage certificate is "Merchant"
The occupation for Henry Williams is carpenter
addresses at time of marriage for both Meshach and Margaret is Amlwch (!!) a little more info would have been helpful ???
Witnesses on the certificate are: Hugh Williams and Elizabeth Jones - I'm assuming Hugh Williams was Meshach's elder brother - but no idea at present who Elizabeth Jones is
I've been researching Walter Hussey Burgh / Walter Hussey DeBurgh - but as yet have been unable to find any connections, but I do know that somewhere in my father's ancestry there is an Irish connection - and kind of hoped this might be it - but I seem to have come to a bit of a grinding halt at present......
thanks again for confirming I'm at least not bonkers :)
Cajondy
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When I saw the name I thought immediately of Irish connections for Hussey and of course when I saw the DeBurghs - it makes sense.
However I cannot see, and am sure you have also searched, for a John.
I wonder if the name was 'invented' for a father on the marriage certificate and / or if Margaret was the illegitimate child of a Hussey De Burgh person ???
I feel sure (well as sure as can be) that you are on the right track with the Williams - everything fits.
As for Elizabeth Jones - there are 60 Amlwch in 1861 - fair enough some will be too young but it is a tall order ;)
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I think I've located the ELizabeth Jones.... It might be a bit of a long shot .... also might just be coincidence - but, I'm getting desperate now! ???
1871 census she was living with a family of (get this!) Hussey De Burghs in Llanbeblig - I think both parents had passed away by then, but they appear as a bigger family in the 1861 census - but no Elizabeth Jones visible then
If I could find Margaret's birth certificate I'd feel I'd made progress - but I've just search for all H de Burghs, Huseey De Burghs and Hussey Burghs and can't find her anywhere! MOST frustrating
I'm fast running out of ideas now....
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I would be wary of ELizabeth - just that it is such a common name; she is 23 yrs in 1871 which would make her quite young to be a witness- although I suppose not impossible. I was hoping that she may be old enough to be the mother of Margaret but not that easy :D
The Hussey De Burghs (I just love the name) seemed to have arrived 1841- 1851- they are not there in 1841. It could be that there is a stray John still in Ireland who just happened to be there for a time but where would little Margaret be in 1851?
mmm... ??? ??? ???
For example- just looked at IGI - there is a John Hamilton H de B submission- married 1844 - died 1887 - Ireland - I'm trying not to go bonkers but it could be someone like him who perhaps fathered a child with a servant in Wales.
I have also looked at 1851 for ant Margarets born Pentrefoelas since that seems a definite place -1901 census- why give that if it doesn't mean anything but there is nothing. :(
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Oh dear, I fear I have got you sucked in to this confusino as well.... I'm beginning to think that Margaret and John may have been visiting from another planet, as I keep drawing dead ends :-\
I do appreciate your having checked also - at least it reassures me I'm not going bonkers and that I'm not overlooking something - though I fear when I eventually find Margaret and John I will probably kick myself at having missed it before
Not easy this family ancestry research is it!!
thanks again for having done the checking you have
kind regards
Cajondy
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Hi All
I'm resurrecting this one agaon - loads of time since I last looked at this (had to give up for a while for fear of going truly bonkers) but not managed to get anyway (at least I've recovered my sanity!)
Can anyone please assist me in looking up the birth of Margaret Hussey Burgh, Petrefoilas c 1843. Father John Hussey Burgh - can't trace him in any census records, and can only trace Margaret in one!Any help much appreciated - thank you
Cajondy
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I have just come across Henry and Margaret Williams in researching my family history. My gg grandmother was Elizabeth Williams the sister of Mesach, born in 1846.
Have you been able to trace the family back to earlier generations before Henry and Margaret?
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hi - this sounds interesting
I have Henry (ships carpenter - born holyhead)and Margaret as parents for Messach. And the following siblings for Mesach (in this order or birth):
Mary
Robert
Hannah
Margaret
Ann
Hugh
Messach (my gg grandfather)
John
Henry
Elizabeth (your gg grandmother?)
Jane
Richard
Mary
Ellin
Stange there's two x Mary!!
Have you managed to source any further info?
Cajondy
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Hello again,
I've just driven myself daft once again looking for Margaet and feel that somewhere on rootschat we have explored more but not sure ::)
I think, and always have done, that Margaret would be illegitimate- although quite how you could give a surname belonging to a quite (apparently) distinguished family, I'm not sure - rather than Evans/Williams or any other popular Welsh name.
However- looking at suitable census entries for Margaret there is this for Margaret Jones niece.
1851 HO107; Piece: 2508; Folio: 487; Page: 1
now trying to match this family to an 1841 family is not easy- but going off the occupation of 'shopkeeper' for John Jones- there is this one:
1841 HO107; Piece 1402; Book: 15; Folio: 13; Page: 10
there are a couple of young women in the household who could be the mother of young Margaret.
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With regard to Henry and Margaret Williams I have found the following via Family Search IGI for Amlwch:
Marriage Henry Williams and Margaret Jones 24th May 1831.
I looked for Henry Williams in the same records for Holyhead around 1807 but found nothing.
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thanks all - - this one is indeed proving a challenge - had it now for three years and beginning to feel I may have it considerably longer yet....
If you come across anything please drop me a line - I fear I may go old and grey before I find the answers I seek :-(
regards
Cajondy
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I have just started going into my Mother side family history and her grandmother was a margaret Williams from Llanbedrig she had my grandfather at the Amlwch workhouse is that anything to do with your family?
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Hi there, I'm researching the Eames family history, so can't help with Hussey Burgh, but you may not have seen this 1861 RG09 4367 69 P1 Amlwch Market Square
Marg Hussey Burgh serv. un. 17 dairymaid Denbighshire
Ann Williams visitor m 28 Amlwch Anglesey. Could Ann be a sister to Meshach and found a wife for him. Might be a lead. Good luck
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Some Hussey Burgh`s in North wales.
North Wales Chronicle (Bangor, Wales), Saturday, December 2, 1854;
Walter Hussey de Burgh esq , Trejorworth , and Miss de Burgh donated to the Bodedern Anglesey Patriotic Fund.
North Wales Chronicle (Bangor, Wales), Saturday, October 25, 1862
Death
16th ins at his residence Wellington Terrace Caernarvon, Walter Bussey de Burgh esq aged 61.
I know it`s not much but at least there were some in the area.
Looking at 1861 it seems that Walter has been married before, Some of the children are much too old to be Elizabeths. There is a connection with Anglesey.
1861 RG9; Piece: 4342; Folio: 84; Page: 9
Wellington Terrace Caernarvon.
Walter Hussey De Burgh 59 landed proprieter b Dublin
Elizabeth H De Burgh 27 wife b Llanfachreth
Victoria D De Burgh 20 dau b Ireland
Albert E W De Burgh 19 son b Russia British subject
Fanny H De Burgh 16 dau b Ireland
Hessie E H De Burgh 15 b "
Gertrude F A De Burgh 12 b Caernarvon
Ulysses H De Burgh 10 b Llanbedlig
Gwenellen G De Burgh 8 b "
Alexander A De Burgh 6 b Anglesey Triorworth
Helena L De Burgh 4 b Caernarvon
Ellen Grey 50 servant b Panton Anglesey.
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Hi All, Could there be a family connection between Ulyses Hubert Burgh born 1850 Caernarvon and Ulysses(Baron Downs) Burgh married 1846 St. Geo Han Sq and the Hussey family (descended from Earls) in county Kerry?
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I can`t find a birth registered Margaret 1842 to 1846 in Denbs with a similer name to De Burgh. A blanket search for Margaret can be done, but who knows what her name was.
She could have been illegitimate, most likely given her status as a dairymaid. She could have been registered with her mothers name.
I would be tempted to search Parish Registers for Pentrefoelas , and see what turns up. Of course there`s always the chance that her Mum was Non Conformist.
As a long shot, a bastardy or maintenence order may have been served.
Marriage.
Walter Hussey De Bergh . Elizabeth Hughes
1860 Quarter Oct-Nov-Dec District: Bangor, County: Anglesey, Caernarvonshire
North Wales Chronicle (Bangor, Wales), Friday, November 30, 1860
on 28th inst at the Cathedral Bangor by the Rev E Pughe, Walter Hussey de Burgh Esq to Eliuzabeth daugther of Mr Edward Hughes manufacturer Anglesey.
Trying to locate some of the children.
Gertrude De Burgh 1848 Oct-Nov-Dec Anglesey,
Ulisses Hubert Hussey de Burgh 1850 Apr-May-Jun Anglesey,
Alexander Avirill De Burgh 1854 Quarter Oct-Nov-Dec Anglesey
Death: Jun 1861 - Carnarvon, Anglesey,
Albert Edward Walter De Burgh
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Thanks everyone - really appreciate all everyone has provided so far... Not looking good is it..
I'm hoping to head to Wales next week, so will try a trip to the local churches in Pentrefoelas and see if I can find anything further there... I suspect I may end up against a brick wall somehow (unless there's a miracle that suddenly appears from somewhere!)
thanks again - much appreciate all your efforts
Cajondy
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Good luck and enjoy the trip anyway :)
I hope the weather is kind.
regards
heywood
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I have also come to (near !) the end of my tether with my search for the origins of Margaret Husseyburgh wife of Meshach Williams :'(
An aquaintance of mine , Lyn Williams living in Bangor has asked me to chase up her long lost Husseyburgh family. She must be a relation on yours and I am happy to pass on her contact details to you.
Lyn has some oral history passed down in the family, and it goes like this:-
"This is the story that we were told about my grandmother's family. Count de Burgh left Russia after the assassination. He set up stables in Dublin, and his daughter 'fell' for one of the stable lads. She was sent to school in Switzerland for a year. She came back to Dublin, married her stable lad and was disowned. She left Dublin for Anglesey with only her silver christening presents."
Maddenlingly no names!!! Obviously oral history has its drawbacks, but surely there must be some hints here. I know that there was a large Hussey De Burgh family in Dublin and also in Caernarvon and Bodedern on Anglesey at one time.
I live on Anglesey and am now sucked into this mystery :))
Would like to find Margaret's birth - no sign of her anywhere in Wales or England.
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Hi - thanks for the reply - sounds quite fascinating for sure and I'd love the contact details if you don't mind passing them on
In the 1911 census MAargaret is shown as having been more in Ceirnioge Mawr - interestingly in Pentrefoelas where her only other reference of birth place has been in earl;ier census records (I think it's mispelt from the transcripts) - so, I drove over to the area hoping the local chapel may reveal more information.... I'm doomed never to find out about this woman!! The chapel was converted some 3-4 years ago to a house (ARGH!!)
the owner there (lovely fellow) pointed me in the directino of a nearby chapel in Cefn Brith where he thought the records could have gone to, and if this proved a dead end (no pun intended) he suggested the Aberyswyth records office may have all the old records.
Interestingly, what he did tell me was that in days gone by (the famines, etc) and also in instances where there were perhaps some embarrassing illegitimacies around, the children were often "placed" with wealthy farmers to bring up (usually as servants, but often then encompassed in the family)
Cernioge Mawr is a sizeable farm - so this local information perhaps rings true - so I checked the census records for 1851 (Cernioge shop - not MAwr) and found a John Jones with a niece of 7 called Margaret Jones (am I clutching at straws here)
She was not shown as being with the Griffith family at Cernioge Mawr that year
In 1861 census I couldn't find Pentrefoielas or Cernioge Mawr!
'Does anyone know where the records form the chapel on the main road just outside Pentrefoelas (heading towarss Cefn Brith and away from Pentrefoelas) have been moved to and how I may be able to access them?
regads
CAjondy
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Cernioge Mawr is a sizeable farm - so this local information perhaps rings true - so I checked the census records for 1851 (Cernioge shop - not MAwr) and found a John Jones with a niece of 7 called Margaret Jones (am I clutching at straws here)
She was not shown as being with the Griffith family at Cernioge Mawr that year
regads
CAjondy
Hello,
I thought this sounds familiar - searched for your 'earlier' thread in rootschat- found it - read it and then realised that it was this one ::)
Can I just point you to post 11 in this thread re the Jones. (It's the de Burgh curse ;D - you just go round in circles
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... In the 1911 census MAargaret is shown as having been more in Ceirnioge Mawr - interestingly in Pentrefoelas where her only other reference of birth place has been in earl;ier census records (I think it's mispelt from the transcripts) ...
That is a fascinating -- although interestingly belated -- piece of extra info for mysterious Margaret to offer up in 1911. (Cajondy: Please put us all right if we are wrong to be reading "more" as "born" in your Reply 22!) Was it genuinely a truth that she had always known, but had previously felt reluctant to admit, or was it more new-coined than that -- and potentially mythic, almost a case of "recovered memory syndrome", about which she had convinced herself (and perhaps her family too)? That's a tough call all these years later; but what she now tells us obviously merits close attention. The "new" birthplace has an interesting back story.
Cernioge was a big posting stage on the Holyhead Road in the early to mid 19th c.; in that era its large grazing acreage almost ranked as a sideline when compared with the business of hiring out horses and catering to the needs of weary travellers (many en route for Dublin). The Hussey de Burghs were probably occasionally among them. Cernioge Mawr was sometimes styled the King's Arms Inn, and was also the site of a tollgate. There are many mentions of the place in the North Wales papers accessible via the Gale 19th c. British Newspaper database. Adverts in the N. Wales Chronicle for the sale of Samuel Owen the retiring tenant's coaches, horses, farm stock, wine cellar and furniture in March 1840 give some idea of the scale of the business. My eye was caught by 1,350 sheep, "seventy dozen of fine old port wine" -- and "an organ, with three barrels, by Thight and Robson"!
This is my first contribution to the Hussey de Burgh public thread. But as I was the writer, I hope Cajondy will not mind my now quoting an extract from a PM I sent her on the subject back on 14 December 2009 (with emphasis now added in the light of the new Cernioge information):
I must say that Pentrefoelas, Margaret Hussey Burgh's stated place of birth, does look strangely off the beaten track for the H de Bs of Caernarfon, let alone for any of them still based in Ireland -- unless of course the poor mother had been abandoned by the father, or she had quite deliberately selected (or had imposed upon her) a remote place where she was not well known for her confinement. I suppose one could also hypothesise a premature labour at an inn, triggered by a bumpy coach journey on the Holyhead Road. And as we know, the parish of birth need not be the parish of baptism . . . Not an easy knot to untie!
But despite all the foregoing, there is actually quite a problem with the theory that Margaret was indeed born at an inn (or in a manger just outside an inn!). Her estimated date of birth seems to be ca. 1843. After the old tenant held his big sale in 1840, it is not at all clear that the owner of Cernioge Mawr house ever succeeded in re-letting it again as a proper posting inn. It may well have declined fairly soon afterwards to the status of a tavern or shop, with the tenants mainly reliant once more on what they could earn from farming. Adverts in the press show that Samuel Owen re-established himself fairly promptly as an innkeeper, at St Asaph. But tellingly, it seems, the flow of adverts for auction sales to be held at the Cernioge Inn (and similar references) dried up in the newspapers. Later in the 19th c. it was certainly just a farm again.
The 1841 census perhaps indicates a transition phase. Margaret Jones, 55, shop and innkeeper, born in-county, occupies premises seemingly named "Feather Inn Kernioge", while the next house is called Kernioge Inn and is occupied by Mary Danlly [?sp.], 45, housekeeper, born out-of-county, accompanied by three male servants (one -- significantly -- an ostler) and by three female servants: HO 107 1402/15 fos.12r & 12v (pp.18 & 19).
Hmmm.
Rol
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Ref. this other new info,Lyn has some oral history passed down in the family, and it goes like this:-
"This is the story that we were told about my grandmother's family. Count de Burgh left Russia after the assassination. He set up stables in Dublin, and his daughter 'fell' for one of the stable lads. She ... married her stable lad and was disowned. She left Dublin for Anglesey with only her silver christening presents"
these thoughts come to mind:
1. Is Lyn able to recall whose "the assassination" was said to have been? If in Russia, presumably not as late as Alexander II's in 1881 (let alone his grandson's during the revolution).
2. As the sources available online clearly show, these Husseys and (de) Burghs had been well established in Ireland for many generations. They had no handles to their names, let alone being "counts". They could in no sense have been Russian refugees in Dublin, reduced to being ostlers or to setting up a livery business. But . . .
3. Wilcoxon's Reply 16 above does demonstrate how the seed could have been sown for a story linking Russia to the family branch that came to live in North Wales: ca. 1841-42 Walter Hussey de Burgh's wife -- at the least -- was in Russia, giving birth to her son Albert (per 1861 census). It seems plausible that if those two were in Russia then the whole family would likely have been there too. Intriguingly, this is not far off the time of Margaret's mysterious birth. Could her mother have been (say) a lady's maid who accompanied the household to Russia -- so, despite the Cernioge/Pentrefoelas version, giving birth to Margaret outside the UK? That would neatly explain why the birth record is so elusive. But the idea is rather weakened by the fact that the next Hussey de Burgh child, Victoria, is recorded in the census as born back in Ireland, and only about a year later -- so the dates, insofar as known to us, do not really quite tie in.*
4. It would nevertheless clearly make sense to try and discover what Walter Hussey de Burgh and his family were up to in Russia, and (if possible) to clarify the dates of their stay. Could he have been in the Foreign Office -- or a military attaché? Are any passport records available? London Gazette or other press mentions? Was another family member living over there, perhaps married to a Russian? (Etc, etc . . . )
Much to chew on. I wish I had more time to help with the necessary mastication!
Rol
* Added 19.09.10: However, Victoria's birth is not really much of a litmus test for the family's return from Russia -- especially as she was actually the child born before Albert, and the child after him (Fanny) did not come into the world until three years later (see Wilcoxon's summary of the 1861 census entry in Reply 16). The Irish press (via Gale) provides a much better way of showing that the Hussey de Burghs were probably back in Ireland by early 1843:
15 March 1843 -- Freeman's Journal, Dublin:
Walter Hussey Burgh among those sworn onto the Co Kildare grand jury at Naas on 12 March.
25 Sept. 1843 -- Freeman's Journal, Dublin:
"Mr. W. Hussey Burgh and family" among those reported to be staying at hotels near the Killarney Lakes.
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This one is definitely going to send me to an early grave - most frustrating!
Thanks to you both for your replies
Yes, Rol - it should say "born" - not "more" - that message was typed on my iphone and no spell (or sense!) check available
Loads of things for me now to look in to, sadly, will have to wait for my next "break" from work (not lilkely to be some months!) - but as this has waited this long, I'm sure a few months more won't hurt....
I may pop in to the records office (I'm guessing there's one nearby to Pentrevoilas??) on my way back down to the south on Thursday
thanks once again for all the different directions to look in to.... Will I EVER get to the bottom of this one I ask myself (out loud, obviously!)
Any help - as always - hugely appreciated
Cajondy
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... Yes, Rol - it should say "born" - not "more" ...
Oh good -- thanks for that confirmation, Cajondy. Wasn't in much doubt; but it's all too easy to over-assume in this game, then start building castles on sand!
I may pop in to the records office (I'm guessing there's one nearby to Pentrevoilas??) on my way back down to the south on Thursday ...
'Fraid they're all a fair way off. The best one for "proper" Denbighshire is in the Old Gaol at Ruthin. Conwy County Borough is the unitary local authority actually responsible for Pentrefoelas these days, and their newish but growing RO is at Llandudno. If you want to pursue the H de Bs around Caernarfon, that former county still has its own RO in the town, under the auspices of Gwynedd County Council (which also runs an RO at Dolgellau for records relating to old Merionethshire). All of which info is subject to the caveat that I may be out of date if there have been any very recent reorganisations -- easily checkable online. Then there is the archival goldmine at Aberystwyth . . .
As the sources available online clearly show, these Husseys and (de) Burghs ... had no handles to their names, let alone being "counts". They could in no sense have been Russian refugees in Dublin, reduced to being ostlers ...
That said, there is still some harmless light entertainment to be had googling "Count de Burgh". It seems that there actually was a post-medieval user of the name -- "a tradesman ... who had bought a papal title" and was one of a choice band of Yorkshire eccentrics catalogued by Osbert Sitwell in his wartime autobiography! (See Google Books (http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=6sqzi1rH-ccC&pg=PA226&lpg=PA226&dq=%22Count+de+Burgh%22+-Terrace+-Terr&source=bl&ots=ckTjcn-MV-&sig=Zg0YbHdexE7lp9-10j-wIynb6zg&hl=en&ei=qxJ0TMPABpKTjAe_zoH0CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=27&ved=0CGwQ6AEwGg#v=onepage&q=%22Count%20de%20Burgh%22%20-Terrace%20-Terr&f=true).)
There was also an American organisation founded in 1908 that styled itself "The Grand Priory of America of the Sovereign Order of St.John of Jerusalem". According to an article published on the web by James J. Algrant in 1995, back in 1908 this body claimed that its founding adherents included a number of Russian émigrés residing in New York ... The promoter was William Lamb who pretended to be of Russian origin and a "general" ...
Its "Grand master" from 1966 was apparently one Crolian William Edelen, who styled himself "Count de Burgh, descendant of Frankish kings of Jerusalem, of the emperors of Byzantium, of Charlemagne, etc.etc." an officer of various independent "orders of chivalry". He ... passed on in the early 1990s.
Not much worth pursuing there, I think . . .
Rol
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Now, here is some extra contextual stuff about Cernioge -- set out mostly for fun and "background in depth" (now that the place has been mentioned), rather than for its vital direct relevance to poor Margaret! Please skim and forgive, if not interested . . .
Long before Cernioge became an inn it was part of the Hiraethog grant given by the Welsh princes for use as an upland grange by Aberconway Abbey. The local grandees were the descendants of Marchweithian, who dominated the nearby township of Prys -- and members of that clan tended to monopolise the Hiraethog leases subsequently granted out by the abbots. Because of their monastic ownership, the principal townships within Hiraethog came to be known as Tir yr Abad Ucha and Tir yr Abad Isa ("Upper and Lower Abbotsland"). The upper or eastern part was eventually allocated to the parish of Cerrigydrudion. The lower or western part (into which Cernioge just fell) was attached to the distant church at Llanefydd. Because crossing the moors to that church was so inconvenient, the inhabitants of Tir yr Abad Isa tended to use Ysbyty Ifan's church (originally established -- as its Welsh name indicates -- by the real and original Order of the Knights Hospitaller of St John of Jerusalem), or Cerrigydrudion's, if their houses were nearer there. Only in the 18th c. was a chapel-of-ease of their own built for the inhabitants to use, known as Capel Voelas -- and this was eventually detached formally from the parish of Llanefydd and made into a parish in its own right, named Pentrefoelas.
In 1485 the leader of the Marchweithian tribe in Prys was Rhys Fawr of Plas Iolyn. He came out for Henry Tudor and brought his clansmen to Bosworth in force. Tradition has it that his men were close by the future king at the crisis of the battle and Rhys had to take over Henry's personal standard when its bearer was killed. He was also one of the several who were later claimed to have inflicted the death blow on Richard III -- in reality probably quite a multi-party endeavour. Anyway, the Tudors were certainly grateful, and when Aberconway Abbey was subsequently dissolved at the Reformation, the Plas Iolyn family's leases in Hiraethog were advantageously converted into longer terms of years at low rents, and eventually into freeholds. One of Rhys's descendants whose family took the surname Gethin went on to make his home at Cernioge and built quite a substantial house there. It was only many years after his line ended in heiresses that the building's career as a posting inn began.
W. Bezant Lowe, The Heart of Northern Wales, vol. II (Llanfairfechan, 1927), contains write-ups on a number of old houses in the area and devotes pp. 484-87 to Cernioge Mawr (Cerniogau) -- including a photograph. His account shows that the surviving parts of the Gethins' house were still plain to see before WW 1:
The present house was built out of the remains of a much older building situated to the east-south-east, portions of the old walls still remaining. The cellars are still in existence under the adjacent orchard to the east-south-east, but have been bricked up. ... To the west of the present house is a very extensive long line of buildings, 65 yds. in length ...
Of later times, near the date of Margaret's presumed presence, Bezant Lowe writes:The ancient hostelry of Cerniogau Mawr ... is now a farm-house, [but] ... in former times it was the halting place of the coaches on their way from Shrewsbury to Holyhead; there was stabling for 69 horses.
He goes on to relate an unsourced anecdote about the 1st Duke of Wellington making a wager that the improved inland route to Holyhead was quicker than the journey via the coast road, and then winning the race to Holyhead that resulted: "It is said that he found the best teams [of post horses] at Cerniogau". Further on, the book refers to the future Queen Victoria's Welsh travels with her mother in 1832, and describes the following record at Cernioge of their stop there:
In the sitting-room, over the fire-place, is a brass tablet with the inscription:--
Queen Victoria had tea in this room on her journey from Wynnstay to Beaumaris in the summer of 1832.
Rol
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Part 1
A week or so ago I found myself with more time available, so thought that I would just round off the Cernioge background stuff by posting up what I knew about the place's owners and tenants -- my idea being that this material might come in useful if Margaret Hussey Burgh (MHB) turned out to have close ancestral connections with the inn through her mother; and even if she did not, it could at least be helpful for some future researcher to have a little cache of data about the subject available online (given that Google was not previously serving up much).
But my curiosity then drew me back to the core of the MHB mystery -- so I deferred posting and decided to dig a bit further, this time focusing more on trying to identify her mother. Then, each time I finished drafting an additional post, I found myself thinking "hold on, I might just be able to push this on some more"! That process repeated itself in the course of several evenings bashing the keyboard, with the result that I have now accumulated unsent text for quite a few separate messages.
The final stage yielded what I hope MHB-chasers will agree is a good breakthrough. But I decided not to junk the intervening draft messages, because they do work as a research narrative -- and they have bits and pieces of info in them that could prove useful to future investigators in expanding the envelope of knowledge in new directions.
See what you think. As the story-books say, "Now read on . . . "!
Rol
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Part 2
Some supplementary information about Cernioge Mawr's owners and tenants; then back to MHB herself.
CERNIOGE: OWNERS
Robert Gethin, the last of the family to make Cernioge his main home, died in 1664. His younger brother and heir Maurice, a London merchant, barely survived him by a decade: his will was proved at the PCC in 1673. Maurice's eldest daughter and heiress, Rebecca, had married another London merchant named Richard Kenrick, whose family had been based in Shropshire for many generations. (Confusingly, the bride's widowed father and the groom's widowed mother also married each other.) Richard himself was dead by 1693 and the property then descended to their son Andrew, who was at that time a barrister in the Middle Temple but later appears to have moved to Chester and built a practice there.
In the 18th c. the Kenricks continued to prosper in the marriage market: Andrew's son Andrew jnr. married the heiress of the Thelwalls of Nantclwyd (a little south of Ruthin -- settlement dated 1722). Their son Richard (1724/5-1802) [per Llanelidan MI] was the father of another Richard (Richard Henry or Harry), who in 1796 married one of the co-heiresses of the Kyffins of Maenan in the Conway valley [see St. A. marr. bond]. (In later secondary sources he is sometimes called Richard Hughes Kenrick, though I have seen no contemporary references to support such a variation.)
Then, as the 19th c. arrived, the Kenricks seem to have decided to raise cash and concentrate their resources in Shropshire and elsewhere. In the first decade of the new century Richard Henry heavily mortgaged his Cernioge property to a Uttoxeter attorney called James Blair -- and by 1822 (probably in economic terms as early as 1816) Blair had fully bought him out. (Richard Henry Kenrick died in 1825 [Llanelidan MI], and by the 1840s his successors had also sold Nantclwyd -- to the Leylands, the family who still own it.)
The new owner of the Cernioge estate never put down deep roots. He may have been primarily interested in the shooting and in potential mineral claims. He rapidly entangled himself in complicated lawsuits to challenge the manorial rights exercised by the Wynnes of Voelas over the Hiraethog moors. By the early 1840s he had decided to sell again, and everything was put up for auction on 25 Aug. 1842 -- i.e. very close to the time of Margaret Hussey Burgh's birth. Ironically, the subsequent buyers were the very Wynnes with whom Blair had struggled so lengthily through the courts. (I should add that this auction date is specified in the Voelas estate's papers about the transaction [NLW: vol.2, GB/146], but I have failed to find matching sale notices via the online databases for either the Times or the N. Wales newspapers.) Whatever the usual conveyancing delays, the Voelas estate seems to have acquired beneficial ownership by 28 February 1843, when it sought a new tenant for "Cernioge Mawr farm" through an advertisement in the North Wales Chronicle.
Details about all the foregoing are mainly to be found in the NLW's online schedules of the Cernioge Estate records and of the Voelas papers vol. 2, currently accessible via the library's ISYS Search (http://isys.llgc.org.uk/) screen -- though N.B. that the data are "soon" due to be moved to their Main Catalogue system. (Lloyd's HPF vol. iii and Griffith's PACF p.300 contain Kenrick errors that can be rectified from the IGI [see esp. the entries for Wolverley in Worcs.], the NLW's Cernioge papers and the MIs at Llanelidan [for which see D R Thomas's HDSA ii p.94] .)
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Part 3
CERNIOGE: INNKEEPERS
First sign I have yet spotted of Cernioge Mawr being used as an inn: 18 Nov. 1781, when a nine year lease of the place was granted by the Kenricks to John Edwards of Llangollen and Roger Rous of Conway, both innkeepers. (Not clear whether they were active business partners or one was simply acting as a rent surety for the other.) Rent: £180 p.a. (NLW Cernioge 15).
On 30 May 1811 Richard Harry Kenrick granted a 17 year lease of "the capital inn messuage and lands called Cernioge Mawr" to Job Weaver, innkeeper (who was already in occupation there). Traffic on the Holyhead Road had evidently grown a good deal since 1781, because the rent had risen substantially -- to £300 p.a. (NLW Cernioge 28). The name Weaver may strike a chord with anyone who has had a good look at the censuses; and he will be of increasing interest in this thread.
He is briefly mentioned as the landlord in a traveller's journal of 1816, available on the web via Jstor -- the Diary of Marianne Fortescue, who stayed there on the night of 17-18 January 1816:
Cernioge, Saturday, 17, J. Weaver Inn Keeper. ... we dined [on] chops -- 'tis now nine oclock -- the girls are both gone to bed -- being sleepy ... I have just finish'd three letters ... -- this is a very good inn.
(from Jnl. Co. Louth Arch. & Hist. Soc. vol.24, No. 4 (2000) pp.478-79.)
If anyone has an opportunity to look through the NLW's desk list of 18th and 19th c. journals of tours in Wales, and check them for references to Cernioge, there would no doubt be several more such mentions to be discovered.
When James Blair bought Cernioge, a rent dispute occurred -- though it seems to have mainly involved alleged misconduct by Thomas Jones of Llainwen in Llanfair DC, the land agent: NLW MS. 10071D. (Jones's family origins, by the way, are discussed in Jnl. Hist. Soc. Meth. Ch. in Wales, vol. 1 (1946), pp.17-24, by Rolant Hughes -- who was of the view that Thomas was the elder brother of Edward Jones of Bathafarn, the pioneer of Wesleyanism in N. Wales, from the name of whose home that journal takes its alternative and pithier title. Early articles in "Bathafarn" are now accessible via the NLW's Welsh Periodicals website.)
I am not clear yet about exactly when Weaver gave up the tenancy, but it seems probable that he did so in the mid-thirties. His eventual successor (whether or not immediate) must have been the Samuel Owen whose leaving auction in March 1840 was mentioned in Reply 24. If someone were able to have a look at the tithe apportionment schedule, that might shed some more light on the chronology.
Finally there is the Voelas estate's advert of 1843 (mentioned above), apparently seeking a purely agricultural tenant. That probably signified the end of the house's spell as one of the great posting inns -- as the 1851 census entry appears to confirm. A couple of years on, George Borrow's evidence pointed the same way (Wild Wales, chapter xxvi):
I walked on briskly over a flat uninteresting country, and in about an hour's time came in front of a large stone house. It stood near the road, on the left-hand side, with a pond and pleasant trees before it, and a number of corn-stacks behind. It had something the appearance of an inn, but displayed no sign. As I was standing looking at it, a man with the look of a labourer, and with a dog by his side, came out of the house and advanced towards me.
"What is the name of this place?" said I to him in English as he drew nigh.
"Sir," said the man, "the name of the house is Ceiniog Mawr."
"Is it an inn?" said I.
"Not now, sir; but some years ago it was an inn, and a very large one, at which coaches used to stop; at present it is occupied by an amaethwr - that is a farmer, sir."
* * * * * * * * * * * *
P.S. There is an attractive (presumably late 19th c.) illustration of Cernioge Mawr and the roadway outside to be seen in C G Harper's The Holyhead Road; the Mail-Coach Road to Dublin (1902), which is accessible by visiting this Internet Archive page (http://www.archive.org/details/holyheadroadmail02harpuoft), clicking the Read Online button in the left-hand panel, and then going to page 226.
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Part 4
Back to the central problem.
As a latecomer reading this thread from October 2008 onwards, I am struck by the fact that no contributor seems to have expressly reported undertaking the usual sort of trawl through the PRs (Pentrefoelas + Ysbyty + Cerrigydrudion), so as to extract any possible candidate baptisms within the key couple of years. Following Wilcoxon's wise prompt about the same point, back in February (Reply18), it may well be that these searches have in fact been performed (presumably with a nil result); but if so, it would be very good to know the outcome. (Please correct me, someone, if I have inadvertently missed an explanation covering this.)
I realise that an entry in the name "Margaret Hussey Burgh" has been sought in the online civil registers -- and has duly failed to turn up. But I am wondering about Margarets more generally, especially any with parent(s) whose abodes are stated to be at or near the inn, perhaps accompanied by (more or less blunt) clerical hints about illegitimacy. As both Wilcoxon and Heywood have said, the obvious likelihood is that the child will have been christened under her mother's maiden surname. Margaret herself was evidently happy to assert her paternal ancestry later in life. But we should not be deluded about the likelihood that her maternal family would have felt a good deal more diffident about the matter back at the time of her birth.
The microfilms of the parish registers (plus any surviving nonconformist ones) are probably a better bet than the civil registration records, not just because they are cheaper if the need is to assess the full context and sift through many possible names in the traditional way, but also because of the known non-compliance rate for the civil birth records in the early years. It would not really be too daunting a task, given that the area had so sparse a population.
For those who did not know, early in 2010 a sub-optimal but easier alternative to some at least of the microfilms became available. At some point between the PR lists in their Dec. 2009 and Mar. 2010 journals, the Clwyd FHS published vol. 2 of their Pentrefoelas PR transcription, covering baptisms and burials from 1813 to the end of the century. (The preceding vol. already took marriages beyond 1813, but only to the beginning of civil registration.) At the current UK price of £5.90, the new vol. would set a buyer back encouragingly less than the cost of a single GRO cert. . . . And maybe some reader of this thread has access to a copy already.
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Part 5
Despite the apparent want of that PR search, those of us living distant from the NLW and the N. Wales record offices are not entirely without the means of making progress.
It makes obvious sense to have a good look at the census entries for the households at and near Cernioge. The housekeeper, ostler and other servants living at the main inn in June 1841 do not advance us much, beyond suggesting that custom was lacking, and was probably by then scarcely even being solicited. But, as I noted at the end of Reply 24 (and I was not the first), the preceding house looks more interesting, especially when analysed in conjunction with the same people's entries in 1851.
I believe that the building described as the "Feather[?s] Inn Kernioge" in 1841 is the same place as the one labelled "Cernioge, (Shop)" in 1851 -- and is identical with the place still shown as "Cernioge Feathers" on the modern OS 1:25,000 maps today (three or four hundred yards west of Cernioge Mawr on the other (N) side of the road).
Slicing and dicing the evidence, this is my speculative interpretation (abbreviated census years relied upon are displayed in square brackets, where they have not been explicitly stated):
1. Margaret Jones. In 1841 Head and probably already a widow ['51], running both a shop and a tavern/inn business. Taking a back seat as Housekeeper in 1851. Born Gwytherin, 1784-5 ['51]. At first glance one might conclude that she was the mother of all five of the young Joneses living under the same roof. That seems a reasonable enough working hypothesis in relation to the first three (John, Eliza and Henry). But as to the youngest two (Francis and Sarah), the ground is shakier -- both because Margaret was coming to the end of her plausible span of fertility, and because her eldest known child John was by then just about old enough to father children himself. A question that needs parish register adjudication. A possible candidate name for her late husband is mentioned in the footnote to the para about her son John (next).
2. John Jones. Son. Born Pentrefoelas, ca. 1812-13 ['51]. (Re JJ's birth and parentage, see also the footnote below.) Ran the shop side of the business in 1841. In that year shown surprisingly late in the enumeration sequence, conceivably because the family's two income sources used separate physical entrances and were to a degree "semi-detached" from each other (just a guess). The relationship with his mother is made explicit in 1851. By that date the innkeeping side of the business (active a decade earlier) failed to rate a mention, and there were no guests in the house to match John Richards, the peripatetic Ind[ependent] Min[ister] who had been there in 1841. If John Jones was the (married) father of any of the younger children present in 1841, he was either already a widower or his wife was away from home. By 1851 he certainly had a resident wife (again?) -- Anna Maria, of whom more below (person 7 in the list).
3. Eliza Jones. Probably daughter of Margaret. B. Denbs. 1816-21 ['41]. Absent 1851.
4. Henry Jones. Probably son of Margaret. B. Denbs. 1821-26 ['41]. Absent 1851.
5. Francis Jones. Could be son or grandson of Margaret. B. Denbs. 1828-29 ['41]. Absent 1851.
6. Sarah Jones. More probably a granddaughter of Margaret's than a daughter. B. Denbs. 1832-33 ['41]. Absent 1851.
7. Anna Maria Jones (née Weaver). Absent 1841; wife of John Jones ['51]. B. Ruthin 1800-01 (so an unusual dozen years her husband's senior).
8. Job Weaver. (Ah ... heard of him.) Father to Anna Maria and present in 1851. Absent in 1841. Described as Annuitant -- but already known to readers of this thread as the (now aged) landlord of the inn at Cernioge Mawr in its glory days. (Since his wife gave birth in Ruthin ca. 1800, perhaps he ran an inn there before coming to Cernioge.) B. Clutton, Cheshire, 1768-69 ['51]. N. Wales BMD records his death in 1853; FreeBMD has his name mistranscribed as John, Q4 1853 (correction submitted).
9. Margaret Jones. The house's third and final new-arrival since 1841. Absent in that year, of course, by reason of age: b. Pentrefoelas 1843-44 ['51]. Niece of John Jones, the Head in 1851. So the daughter of a sibling of John's who was then absent -- perhaps a child of one of Persons 3, 4 or 5 above (No. 6 being too young), or perhaps of an unknown sibling absent in 1841 as well as in 1851.
So much for the apparent census "facts" at Cernioge. What about the "editorial", on the implications? Next post.
Footnote: The Clwyd FHS's transcript of the earlier Pentrefoelas PRs (baptism section) ends with 1812. A kind person who has access to a copy has checked for me to see whether John Jones's christening may just have "made the cut" -- and it seems that there is indeed a reasonable candidate entry: [Baptisms, 1812] John, son of John Jones, blacksmith, Kernioge Mawr, and Margaret his wife, 6 September.
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Part 6
Well now, others have already noticed that the inhabitants of the Cernioge Feathers Inn & Shop are of potential interest for the MHB hunt -- as demonstrated by Heywood's post in January this year:
I think, and always have done, that Margaret would be illegitimate ...... - looking at suitable census entries for Margaret there is this for Margaret Jones niece.
1851 HO107; Piece: 2508; Folio: 487; Page: 1
now trying to match this family to an 1841 family is not easy- but going off the occupation of 'shopkeeper' for John Jones- there is this one:
1841 HO107; Piece 1402; Book: 15; Folio: 13; Page: 10
there are a couple of young women in the household who could be the mother of young Margaret.
. . . a point later reinforced by Cajondy after making her 1911 census breakthrough:
... I checked the census records for 1851 (Cernioge shop - not MAwr) and found a John Jones with a niece of 7 called Margaret Jones (am I clutching at straws here)
On the evidence available I think Heywood's instinct was spot on target. I reckon that Margaret the Niece is a prime suspect. Absent a successful search for a baptism in the PR microfilms, I think trying to discover more about the daughters of the house who were present in '41 and gone in '51 might just yield valuable new clues.
So, maybe useful to gnaw further at the problem -- by trying to discover extra info about these people.
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Part 7
SARAH JONES
The usual online sources sort her out fairly easily.
Her absence from the Cernioge shop on 1851 census night is explained by an entry at Well Street, Ruthin (which actually lies within the parish of Llanrhydd). Both Sarah and her brother Francis -- another Cernioge absentee -- were at the house of a grocer called William Williams. An Irish-born music teacher and Francis himself (21, Groom) were classified as lodgers, whilst Sarah appeared as Sarah J. Jones, Visitor, 17, Annuitant. Their birthplaces were both entered as "Denbighshire Cenioge". Finding the two together in this way does marginally strengthen the thought that they were siblings. (Ref. is HO 107 / 2504 fo.253r p.12.) It may also turn out to be relevant that their suspected mother (Anna Maria Jones née Weaver) is recorded as having been born in Ruthin.
In 1858 Sarah married a William Jones at Cerrigydrudion parish church (N. Wales BMD) -- probably in Q3 (Corwen 11b 517), as that is the only "Sarah Jane" entry on FreeBMD for Corwen RD with a matching William Jones (although there is also a "Sarah" with a William in Q4). The presence of that additional name -- not mentioned in the 1841 census -- is a useful pointer, because the 1861 census finds the newly-marrieds installed at No.1 Rhyd y Groes Cottages (NW of Cerrigydrudion village), with William recorded as an ag. lab. (RG 9 / 4310 fo.49r p.5) -- and Sarah appears there with the middle name Jane attributed to her in the GRO index. This of course implies that the entry from the local civil register was mistranscribed into N Wales BMD, given that the GRO's only source for the extra name (as also shown in the 1861 census) must have been the local registrar's return, derived from his original register. (N. Wales BMD notified.)
By 1871 the family had moved into Cerrigydrudion village and were living at No.3 Ty Coch, just near the Queen's Head Inn, and William had set himself up as a stonemason. There were six children. See: RG 10 / 5680 fo.82v p.12.
Sarah's household census entries in 1861 and 1871 are of interest in relation to the Cernioge Joneses more generally, because John Jones and Anna Maria his wife had come to live with her and given up their business. In 1871 John is described as Formerly Shopkeeper, and in 1861 -- more informatively -- as Formerly Linen Draper. The ages attributed to him concur in implying a DoB within 1812-13, so matching the dates suggested by his listing at the shop in 1851.
In 1861 John Jones's relationship to the head of the household (i.e. William) is clearly shown as father-in-law, so seeming to remove any lingering doubt that Sarah might have been a very late child of John's mother Margaret, rather than John's own. The 1871 entry slightly be-fogs that clarity by identifying him as William's father rather than father-in-law, but the odds must be heavily in favour of that being a simple enumerator's error.
Sarah's own ages in the three censuses imply that her year of birth fell into the range 1833-35. As was already clear from the 1841 census, that means that she can be pretty safely eliminated as a possible mother for MHB (b. ca. 1843).
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Part 8
FRANCIS JONES
By reason of age (b. 1828-30) he too is at best a very long-shot candidate to be MHB's parent. His appearance at Ruthin as a groom (of the non-marital kind) in 1851 has already been mentioned in connection with Sarah Jones. He may be the unmarried 51 year old general labourer, b. Pentrevoelas, who was still living at a lodging house in Ruthin in 1881.
HENRY JONES
In contrast, Henry was mature enough in 1843-44 to join the theoretical candidate list to be father of 1851's seven year old "Margaret the Niece". But as we all know, if this Margaret was indeed the child we are seeking, the fact that MHB adopted the name she later did makes it very unlikely that the Jones family provided her father rather than her mother. At any rate, there seems to be nothing in Henry's likely subsequent career to provoke our suspicions.
Although this requires substantiation, it looks probable that in 1851 he was the newly-arrived blacksmith, 27 (b. Pentrefoelas), who was living at Rhydganol, Tre-llech, Llanrhaeadr-yng-Nghinmeirch, with wife Jane, 26 (b. Llanfor), and children John, 3 (b. Cerrigydrudion) and Margaret, 1 (b. Pentrefoelas): ref. HO 107 / 2504 fo.468r p.6.
By 1871 the same household is to be found at Bryn Llwyd, in the northern part of Cerrigydrudion parish. Henry's wife has become "Prysila Jane" and three more children have arrived. Henry usefully narrowed his place of birth to "Tir Abot". (Ref. is RG 10 / 5680 fo.71r p.1.)
By 1891 they had all gone off to Wrexham and two of the sons were working in the collieries; I have not sought to pursue them further.
Next: Miss Prime Suspect . . .
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Part 9
ELIZA JONES
As already observed, the 1841 census for the Feathers Inn at Cernioge lists Eliza's age as 20 (so actually 20-24), implying a birth year range of 1816-21. What next?
Well, if indeed she had once misbehaved with a smart guest at the big inn, she must have overcome (or suppressed) any resulting "reputational damage" remarkably effectively, and/or been especially attractive to men -- because the evidence of the 1851 census suggests that she soon made a very promising marriage. A woman closely matching what we know of Eliza appears that year in the parish of Llansantffraid Glan Conwy as the wife of a 28 year old woollen stuff manufacturer named John Anwyl, a native of the town of Denbigh. She gave 29 as her own age (so born 1819-20 and right in the middle of the range needed to match the 1841 census entry at the Feathers).
The positive identification looks reasonably safe, because she stuck with the rarer form "Eliza" (rather than Elizabeth) and her place of birth was listed as "Cirnioge Maur Denbigh". The couple were living at a place described as "Factory", along with a three year old daughter called Mary Ann (b. Eglwys Fach), a 20 year old yarn spinner, and a 13 year old "Yarn Garding Boy" (not too much trouble from child labour legislation yet then -- but ought he really to have been a Carding Boy?). There was also one general servant. Eliza too was evidently expected to make herself useful: her occupation was shown as "Dress maker". (See HO 107 / 2519 fo.321v p.1.)
Confirmation that the pieces fit together comes courtesy of N. Wales BMD, which shows a John Anwyl marrying an Eliza Jones at Pentrefoelas in the year 1846 (ref. CW20/01/17). FreeBMD's version of the central GRO index narrows the date of the wedding to April-May-June (Llanrwst RD, vol.27, p.357).
The daughter's birth place is explained by John Anwyl's own pre-marital census entry in 1841, which shows his place of residence as "Village of Eglwysfach" and lists him as 18 years of age and apparently the eldest child of Abel Anwyl, "Wool M." (with the M doubtless signifying Manufacturer): HO 107 / 1403 / 8 fo.32r p.3.
The couple's whereabouts in 1861 and 1871 have so far eluded me. But thankfully for this narrative (as will shortly become clear), they re-appear on the radar screen in 1881. Things do not seem to have gone quite as well during the intervening years as the 1851 census seemed to promise. They were living alone at 10, Tanygrisau Terrace in Ffestiniog, with John -- now 58 -- reporting his occupation as Engine Driver, and Eliza still a dressmaker. (See RG 11 / 5551 fo.105r p.67.) Perhaps his health was already failing. At any rate, four years later he was dead: Q1 1885, John Anwyl, 62, Festiniog RD, vol. 11b p.336 (per FreeBMD). Eliza did not long outlast him; and when she made her last curtsey and exit in Q3 1888, aged 66, Festiniog's registrar of BMDs finally converted her from Eliza into Elizabeth Anwyl: vol. 11b p.240.
Now, with little preparatory fanfare, here comes the coup de théâtre. Unlike her husband, she left a will.
Next post . . .
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Part 10
This is what appears under Eliza's name in the PPR's Calendar of Wills and Administrations for 1888:
ANWYL Eliza.
3 October. The Will of Eliza Anwyl late of 3 Glanypwll Rhiwbryfdir in the Parish of Festiniog in the County of Merioneth Widow who died 27 August 1888 at 3 Glanypwll was proved at the Principal Registry by Margaret Williams (Wife of Messach Williams) of 4 Garden-square Bangor in the County of Carnarvon the Daughter one of the Executrixes.
Personal Estate £81 10s.
Q.E.D.! (Seeing that entry for the first time was quite a good moment . . . )
Despite the small quantity of her worldly goods, Eliza had clearly been warned that MHB's illegitimate status would stop her being entitled to a brass farthing -- unless a will was written to overturn the law's "default settings". So despite the expense for someone relatively poor, a will is what she proceeded to write.
The text of the document itself does not really tell us any more than the calendar entry about MHB and her parentage. To want more does seem a bit greedy . . . But the perfect coda to this whole investigation, after all, would have been if Eliza had actually used her last testament to point an identifying finger at our leading candidate to be MHB's progenitor: Walter Hussey de Burgh of Caernarfon's eldest son and heir, John Hamilton Hussey de Burgh* of Dromkeen Co. Limerick and Kinfinnan Castle Co. Cork (1822-87 -- per Burke's IFR 1976, ed. Massingberd). Never mind, I am too pleased about the fish just pulled into the boat to be much downcast about the one that -- for now -- is still at large!
The will does at least prove that MHB's half-sister, the Mary Ann Anwyl who was aged three at the time of the 1851 census, managed to beat the infant mortality statistics and reach adulthood. By the time of their mother's death she had married a man called John Andrew Rosier (who was named as part of his wife's description in the grant, rather than in the will itself). No other children -- or indeed people of any sort -- are mentioned. The two daughters were appointed equal universal legatees and co-executrixes, although only MHB took out the 1888 grant of probate; power was reserved in the usual way to make a like grant to Mary Ann. The document was dated 25 May 1888 and witnessed by David Jones (Wesleyan Minister Blaenau Festiniog) and David Jones [yes, another one] (Quarryman Trefeini Blaenau Festiniog).
Incidentally, Rosier could be an interesting fellow to pursue: in 1871 he was a 19 year old actor ("comedian"), b. London Middlesex, staying at a boarding house in Bolton with two others similarly engaged: RG 10 / 3937 fo.7r p.7. But a quick online check suggests that he and Mary Ann may not prove to be the easiest of quarry.
Rol
* (not John Hammond Hussey de Burgh, as inexplicably first typed) -- Corrected 11.xii.10
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Part 11
WEAVER EPILOGUE -- I
As already noted, the 1851 census suggested that Job Weaver ("Weaver") was born at Clutton in Cheshire, ca. 1768-69. GENUKI states that Clutton was a township within the ancient parish of Farndon, and was only elevated to (civil) parish status in 1866. (PRs not currently accessible via the IGI or the Cheshire PR project.)
His daughter Anna Maria's census entries suggested a search for the Weavers at Ruthin ca. 1800. They do appear there, albeit briefly and rather uninformatively, per the CFHS PR transcripts. The following baptisms are shown for Weaver's children by Anne his wife:
Mary & Sara -- 4 Apr 1798
John -- 13 Mar 1800
Anna -- 1 Dec 1802
Father's occupations and abodes were not recorded.
I have already mentioned the 17 year lease of Cernioge Mawr granted to Weaver in 1811 and the traveller's diary entry that confirms his presence there as innkeeper in 1816. (For both see Reply 31.)
However, there is also some evidence, so far unposted, that shows how and why Weaver's reign at the inn ended -- and it suggests that this was a very unhappy time for all concerned. A back light is shone on the matter by the revelation of why he could not be found in Denbighshire at the time of the 1841 census: he was in a Staffordshire lunatic asylum. (See HO 107 / 995 / 10 fo.39r p.2 -- Job Weaver, 70, Innkeeper, b. out-of-county; in list of patients at Oulton Retreat for the Reception of Lunatics, Stone, Staffs.)
A number of documents relating to Weaver's mental state and its consequences came to rest in the archives of a firm of solicitors called Henry Rumsey Williams (HRW), now held at the NLW. The matter was evidently already serious by 1833 -- this is the NLW's combined description of items 2184-94 in vol. 2 of the its HRW schedule:
1833-34
PAPERS in a dispute concerning the estate and person of Job Weaver of Cernioge, co. Denb., innkeeper, a lunatic. Contains details of J.W.'s profits from his inn, his farm, and from the London - Holyhead Mail Coach (no. 2189) and a list of jurors summoned re the lunacy, including Thomas Gee, printer (no. 2187).
A separate and undated document in HRW vol. 2, No. 1281, very probably relates to the same matter and confirms that the Weavers were obliged to sell their leasehold and other property:
[? early 19c.]
ACCOUNT of sale of the lease of Cernioge and Dinas [p. Pentrefoelas, co. Denb.] and of the household goods and farming stock [not specified] of the two farms.
To make matters even worse, it seems that some of the third parties involved in dealing with the disposal of the assets then went to court against each other. This is the schedule's description of item 2286:
1837, July 31
(i) CLOSE COPY DECLARATION AND PARTICULARS in an action on promises between Rowland Williams and John Pemberton.
(ii) CLOSE COPY REPORT as to the claim of Thomas Overton in appraising and selling the goods, chattels and stock of Job Weaver; with covering letter. [cf. nos. 2184-94]
If anyone with an interest in MHB and her Pentrefoelas connections can invest some time at the NLW, these documents would be well worth a check. Witness statements could reveal much (about the witnesses as well as the subject matter of their testimony), and the papers could also reveal whether Weaver was made a Chancery Lunatic -- which would have generated a whole additional set of records about him at Kew.
However dire the personal and financial consequences of Job Weaver's insanity, it is at least some comfort to know that it did become possible for him to return to Pentrefoelas and end his days at home with his family (as revealed by the 1851 census).
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Part 12
WEAVER EPILOGUE -- II
I have not attempted to trace the fate of Anna Maria Weaver's siblings as disclosed by the above entries in Ruthin PR. But it seems that Mary survived to marry one William Denman of Bangor (Caerns.) at Pentrefoelas on 6 Jan. 1826, with her father and "Anne" Weaver (?her mother or sister) present as witnesses. And there may also be something about the family in the newly published vol. 2 of Pentrefoelas PRs -- to judge by Jill Rose's valuable PR indexing website Names from Clwyd (http://www.namesfromclwyd.org.uk/), which lists references to Weaver baptisms or burials in that volume with the forenames Anne, Charles, Edward, Job, Martha and Sarah. I would guess that the mentions of Job and Sarah are likely to be the burials of family-members known to us already; the others, for now, are terra incognita.
Jill Rose's eye was obviously attracted by one particular entry as she indexed Pentrefoelas vol. 2, and it prompted her to include fuller details (as she sometimes does):
6 Jan 1852 bur/o Job Weaver JONES (illegitimate) aged 17 weeks, Llwynon
Phew! Nobody likes to learn of a death so young. But think of it -- if he had survived and bred, a new RootsChat enquiry could have arrived any day -- and we might all have been launched straight back into a second edition of the MHB merry-go-round. Near the start of this thread, Cajondy and Heywood were worried that MHB was going to drive them both "bonkers"; well, it actually happened to poor Job Weaver. And an MHB-2 might have put us all in the madhouse!
I don't know about you, but I still cannot help wondering who the parents were this time . . .
Rol
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In Part 11 of my bulk posting ten days ago (Reply 39), I wrote this:
... Witness statements could reveal much (about the witnesses as well as the subject matter of their testimony), and the papers could also reveal whether Weaver was made a Chancery Lunatic -- which would have generated a whole additional set of records about him at Kew.
A couple of days ago I came upon the answer to the Chancery point, courtesy of two legal notices in the press, captured via the Gale Newspaper database. They also serve to confirm 1835 as the year when Weaver lost his tenancy of the inn.
North Wales Chronicle, 14 April 1835:
To be Peremptorily Sold,
Pursuant to an Order of the Lord High Chancellor made in the matter of Job Weaver, a person of unsound mind, with the approbation of George Boone Roupell, Esq., one of the Masters of the High Court of Chancery,
ALL that LEASEHOLD MESSUAGE, FARM, LANDS, and PREMISES, the House now used as an Hotel, and called or known by the name of the CERNIOGE HOTEL, situate in the parish of Llanyfydd, in the county of Denbigh; together with the STOCK in TRADE, HOUSEHOLD GOODS and FURNITURE, LIVE and DEAD STOCK, IMPLEMENTS of HUSBANDRY, GROWING CROPS, and HAY and CORN, now in and upon the said Farm and Premises, which will be Sold, on the said Premises, on MONDAY, the 20th day of APRIL, 1835, and following days, subject to certain conditions which will then be ready.
Printed particulars may be had, gratis, at the Chambers of the said Master, in Southampton-buildings, Chancery-lane, London; [ ... of specified solicitors in Bedford Row and Lincoln's Inn ... ]; of Mr. WILLIAM GRIFFITH, Pen-issa'r-dre, Llanrwst, in the county of Denbigh, Solicitor; of Mr. HENRY RUMSEY WILLIAMS, of Penrhos, near Carnarvon, Solicitor; at the place of Sale, and at all the principal Inns in North Wales; and also at the principal Inns at Shrewsbury and Chester.
Once the physical assets had been liquidated at auction, William Griffith of Llanrwst was evidently deputed to collect in Weaver's remaining book and other debts and to settle up with his creditors:
North Wales Chronicle, 16 June 1835:
Notice to Debtors and Creditors.
ALL Persons to whom Mr. JOB WEAVER, late of Cernioge-Mawr in the county of Denbigh, Innkeeper, and now a Lunatic, stands indebted, are requested to furnish me, for the use of the Committees of his Estate, with an account of their respective demands. And all Persons indebted to the Estate of the said Job Weaver, are forthwith requested to pay the amount of their respective Debts to me, for the use of the said Committees.
WILLIAM GRIFFITH
Penissar Dre, Llanrwst, 11th June, 1835.
In my most recent preceding post (Reply 40), I made mention of several PR entries in the name Weaver indexed on the Names from Clwyd website. Jill Rose has now been so kind as to put up full details of these entries, and I hope she will not mind if I summarise them here. The one for Job Weaver himself is no great surprise:
1853 Buried Job Weaver, Cerniogau, aged 86, 10 Nov.
Not so with the other five names. They turn out to concern a couple called Edward and Martha Weaver and the baptism of their three children: Sarah (1818), Anne (1821) and Charles (1823) -- the last of whom did not survive 1824. The family are shown as living at Cernioge Bach, and Edward's occupations are successively recorded as ostler, coachman and horse keeper. It transpires that these christenings are also extracted in the IGI, perhaps via the BTs; the same source shows that by 1827 the family were at Bangor (where a daughter Mary was baptised), and also discloses a possible marriage for the parents in 1815, at St Oswald's Chester, with the bride's maiden name shown as Ackerley.
There must be a fair chance that Edward Weaver was a brother of Job's, given fraternal employment in "the family business" -- when the going was still good.
Rol
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Hi Rol
Thank you for this series of marvellous posts on the history of Cerniog Mawr and Cerniog Feathers. I've just been looking on the OS map and the satellite view of both. It looks like the extremely long barn is still standing ;D
And many thanks also for the link to the most interest book regarding the Holyhead Road.
Heather
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Thanks for that, Heather -- your appreciation is always appreciated! :)
And good to have some company on stage; this thread had turned into a bit of a soliloquy. I was beginning to wonder whether confirmation that poor Margaret Hussey Burgh was a b**t**d (with an uncle married to the daughter of a loonie into the bargain) had driven away all her erstwhile friends and relations, 19th c. style!
I was thinking of giving it a fortnight and then posting some suitably Shakespearian farewell to the unfortunates who lived at Cernioge when everything went wrong. First draft clichés might have been the one about all our yesterdays being
a tale Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, Signifying nothing
or perhaps more appropriately for this thread, that plain old standby
the rest is silence
Your post has helpfully eliminated the pretext for such pseudo-Thespian temptations! ;)
R
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Perhaps there is a logistical cause for this lapse into silence and all will be acknowledged in due course ::)
H
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cajondy - the original poster was last on line Saturday 18 September 10 13:37 BST (UK)
timba - also researching the same family last on line Tuesday 14 September 10 10:34 BST (UK)
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Hello Rol,
I do feel duty bound to acknowledge your efforts in this case, albeit I am but a minor player in these events. ::)
I too get involved sometimes and I know the hours which can be spent just doing online research to help people, nevermind the very detailed report you have made.
I did try to keep up with your findings but confess to frailty of spirit since I have no real interest in any of this and I fell by the wayside somewhere around Cernioge Mawr. ;)
However, suffice it to say, my interest was rekindled when I inferred from your notes that I think you agree with my feeling that she was illegitimate and was the Margaret Jones. This suggestion, I think, I made a long time ago.
During this research I was just intrigued by the name 'Hussey de Burgh' which has such a wonderful ring to it :D and wondered how Margaret could just assume the surname without the consent of the family. That was simply why I got involved. :o
regards
heywood
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Hello All,
Yes, even when the New Post notifications are working (as Wilcoxon to some degree infers), there can still be many wholly understandable reasons for a period of nil reaction on a thread; and I am entirely relaxed about that. I suppose I was just using the opening offered by Hiraeth's kind words to poke some mild fun -- by putting a wryly mischievous spin on how that silence could appear. ;)
Glad North Wales has lured you back, Heywood, and thank you too for the nice comments. You were certainly the first to spot where the maternal part of the solution probably lay, and I was keen to give the full chapter-and-verse reference to what you wrote and when you wrote it (Reply 34 -- deep in the Cernioge Mawr thicket . . . ;)).
On the question of
... I was just intrigued by the name 'Hussey de Burgh' which has such a wonderful ring to it :D and wondered how Margaret could just assume the surname without the consent of the family. That was simply why I got involved. :o ...
In France and similar jurisdictions where naming patterns are often strictly regulated, she might never have been allowed to do so; but in the common law tradition I think that people can mostly pick the ensign they like and just run it up the mast. I suppose the grandly-named Yorkshireman in the the second volume of Osbert Sitwell's autobiography, The Scarlet Tree (1946), is as good an example as any, and right on-topic: he just seems to have decided that "Count de Burgh" would suit him nicely. See my Reply 27 above -- although unfortunately the link there to the Google Books partial view of Paul Fussell's 1990 book about WW2 (where the Sitwell passage about de Burgh was cited) no longer seems to be operative, at least on my machine.
In many ways it is excellent that Margaret did choose to style herself MHB rather than Margaret Jones: it strikes me as a fine act of defiance to the world -- with the added advantage for us a century and a half on that the family tradition about her paternity has beaten the odds and been preserved.
Rol
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Rol, Heywood, Heather
first and foremost - HUGE apologies for the month's silence from me - personal circumstances have prohibited my being able to log on and access Rootschat until now
Next MASSIVE thanks for all this superb information - I've read, re-read and will need to further re-read to ensure I digest it all. Your time (which I know must have been considerable) and efforts are hugely appreciated.
Unfortunately I am only able to get to Wales around about the last summer bank holiday each year - and I only had time to visit Cernioge Mawr area this year (in the hopes the chapel may reveal more information) - sadly, the chapel is now a doestic abode and by the time of day I got there I had no chance of getting to the nearest records office. Top on my list for my trip next August for sure!
I am determined to get to the bottom of the Hussey Burgh challenge - and your help has been very kind and welcomed - thank you.... I will be back on here again soon - hopefully with further progress
the eternal optimist
Cajondy
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Welcome back, Cajondy!
Very glad to hear that "real life" has loosened its grip a bit and given you some time to come and see what has been afoot at Pentrefoelas -- quite a bit to digest at one go. :) As to
... HUGE apologies for the month's silence from me - personal circumstances have prohibited my being able to log on and access Rootschat until now
don't worry in the least; I meant it when I wrote
even when the New Post notifications are working ... , there can still be many wholly understandable reasons for a period of nil reaction on a thread; and I am entirely relaxed about that.
-- and "real life" imposes itself on us all from time to time. ;)
As to
I've read, re-read and will need to further re-read to ensure I digest it all. ... I am determined to get to the bottom of the Hussey Burgh challenge
we'll be interested to hear your additional comments and questions once you have had the opportunity to absorb the latest info more fully. Hope you will agree that the ID of MHB's mother is now reasonably secure, albeit so far without much of a maternal line further back.
On the paternal side, we all know that it may never be possible to prove much, aside from the family tradition; but if you want to keep at it (bravo!), I suppose a reasonable "next move" would be to try and track down John Hamilton* HdB's family papers, on the off-chance that some evidence of support payments or an annuity (or simply tell-tale correspondence) might have survived. Even if not catalogued, they could still be sitting unnoticed in the old family solicitors' dusty cellar. First steps in that direction might be:
(1) a post asking for help on the main R/chat Irish board, setting out John's full details (incl. Burke's IFR 1976 etc), with a cross-ref. link to this thread;
(2) contact the Irish heritage centres local to his two houses;
(3) try to trace and contact his living descendants as disclosed in IFR 1976;
(4) find out whether an entry for a will in his name appears in the printed annual calendars of grants for the Dublin PPR. (If surviving, grant should disclose name of solicitor dealing with the matter -- can then use annual Law Lists to identify current successor firm; or approach Irish Law Society for advice/assistance via their internal practice succession records.)
If a will was made, key Q is, did it get safely preserved at a local registry -- or, more likely, go to the principal registry and get burnt in the Four Courts fire of 1922 (if so, talk to Irish National Archives in case a copy has been discovered and handed in to them, as per NAI's standing appeal to lawyers to try and re-constitute the lost records).
In your shoes I would also want to uncover more about Walter HdB's Russian trip in the early 1840s and Albert's birth there. Did John Hamilton* HdB come too? Could any passport or visa papers mention the names of accompanying servants? . . . et cetera. If you decide to go down that angle of attack too, just let me know; I can probably point you at some possible sources at Kew and Guildhall/LMA.
With luck other contributors may have different/better ideas for you to pursue.
Rol
* (not John Hammond HdeB, as originally typed) -- Corrected 11.xii.10
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Rol
thank you for your continued interest and support in this - it is indeed a puzzle
I'm hoping that "real life" will settle down a little during the next couple of weeks and I'll be able to take the time your previous updates deserves to properly read through and absorb. Times like this I wish I'd won the lottery and could devote my entire time to this research - it's fascinating for sure!
will be in touch again soon
kindest.......
Cajondy
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Hi All, Could there be a family connection between Ulyses Hubert Burgh born 1850 Caernarvon and Ulysses(Baron Downs) Burgh married 1846 St. Geo Han Sq and the Hussey family (descended from Earls) in county Kerry?
Yes they are all "cousins" descended from Rt Rev Ulysses Burgh, of Dromkeen, Bishop of Ardagh (abt 1640-1692). Ignatius Hussey (of Donore, co Kildare-abt 1682-1743) married Elizabeth Burgh (of Oldtown, Naas, Co Kildare -1705-1757)....my 6th great grandparents.
Their son Walter Hussey-Burgh (1742-1783) assumed the name of Burgh upon the death of a maternal uncle, the Rev. Rickard Burgh, whose estates in the County of Limerick (Dromkeen) he inherited.
Wlater married Anne Burgh (his 2nd cousin). Walter's son, the Rev John Hussey-Burgh suceeded at Dromkeen and Walter (subject of this thread) was his eldest son.
Maj. General Sir Ulysses de Burgh and 2nd Lord Downes (1788-1863) married Maria Bagenal on 20 June 1815 (not 1846). They lived at Merville House in Dublin. Ulysses was the son of Thomas Burgh of Bert House and was the cousin of Elizaberth Burgh who married Ignatius Hussey.
rgds
Peter
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Hello Peter, and many thanks for posting that info, which I think usefully sets out -- and broadly matches -- the version published in Burke.
If you have been pursuing these people for some time, and from an Irish angle, I wonder whether your research has already touched on any of the lines of enquiry proposed in my Reply 49 above? It would be great to have some Hibernian expertise focused on the problem of finding the family papers and correspondence of John Hamilton* HdeB -- and their modern-day custodians. You may have some better thoughts about the most potentially fruitful means of reaching that objective.
Rol
* (not John Hammond HdeB, as originally typed) -- Corrected 11.xii.10
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Peter
you can't imagine my delight at reading your update.... Does this mean my long lost John Hussey Burgh - a merchant and father to Margaret (born c 1845) - can now successfully be tied back in to the generations of Hussey de Burghs? Would you know the lineage?
Rol
apologies - real life continues to be ever hectic - there is surely more to life than working 18 hour days in front of my laptop - I PROMISE I will make time soon (just need the next few weeks to pass) to re-read (for the umpteenth time) your massive updates and get back to you...
Kindest regards
Cajondy
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Almost a year later and I've managed to make a trip to Cernioge Mawr where I promptly knocked on the door (cheeky if nothing else!)
The occupants kindly allowed me to take photos - indeed still an inpressive location with stunning views..The long barn is indeed still there, as are the stables over the road and several out buildings (in various states of repair / disrepair)
I then ventured to various other locations in the area - seeking a local sage - and discovered more interesting history about the place... I'm sure you will all probably know this, but in case not, "Cernioge" means "mountain of stones" - and I'm reliably informed that Cernioge Mawr is currently approximately half it's original size...
A large quantity of the stones from the original Cernioge Mawr were used to build Cernioge Bach (nothing of course to do with MHB, but interesting local info nonetheless)
Whilst in the area I spent some time in the Ruthin records office, searching baptism's in Pentrfoelas for five years either side of MHB birth - but to no benefit... Unfortunatey, my trip to Wales had to be cut short (will I ever get time in my life for this exciting project!) so I was uable to check records of baptisms for Margaret Jones, born 1843. I will now have to save that for my annual trip next year!
It's interesting Rol, that through a most scientific proess you have deducted Eliazabeth Jones to be the mother of Margaret. I say interesting because the witness on Margaret's wedding certificate was Elizabeth Jones. I must re-read your many updates to determine if this is pure coincidence, or if Elizabeth had not yet married when MHB got married in 1865.
I have a couple more days before returning to my manic work partern, and will try to do more research... Just thought I'd share what I've discovered since the last update, and thank you all once again for your very impressive and detailed updates. Wish to goodness I had more time to research this, it's driving me to the same place poor Job went (at least my work keeps me sane!)
.
I also wish I had the skills and experience you all seem to have in researching things so thoroughly - though I suspect I'd get no sleep at all, as I'd be completely absorbed in reseaching!
thanks again everyone.... be in touch again soon (I hope!)
Cajondy
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http://freespace.virgin.net/jill.farndon25/J.html
376 Pentrefoelas Vol. 2 Baptisms 1813-1908, Burials 1813-1900
Jill Rose has updated her site with all Margaret Jones bapt Pentrefoelas from this Vol. Unfortunately she is not there.
Cerniogau bach is an abode in a couple of entries.
There was lots of hanky panky going on around Pentrefoelas judging by all the illegitimate children . ;D ;D
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thank you so much for checking - most kind....
I wonder, do you (or anyone else reading this) know, if births in PentreFoelas way back in 1843 would be more likely to have been registered in Llanrwst, Ruthin or Corwen? I'm thinking Im going to have to buy every sinlge record of births from 1843 in the area to locate this dear lady's father for sure... Whilst I know from her marraige certificate his name, I'd somehow feel much more comfotable once I have her birth certificate (gulp, sounds like this could be very expensive!)
thank you all once agin
kind regards
Cajondy
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Hello all,
New arrival to the site, having taken over my mother's genealogy efforts and encountering a few dead ends.
My great grandmother on my father's side was Elizabeth Williams (married Richard Jones) who is the daughter of Meshach Williams and Margaret Hussey Burgh.
Does anyone please know whether it was ever confirmed definitively that Margaret Hussey Burgh's biological parents were Eliza Anwyl (nee Jones) and John Hamilton Hussey de Burgh (son of Walter Hussey de Burgh of Caernarfon)?
Thanks in advance.
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Welcome to roots chat
Still digging, and still not yet confirmed, but for sure - we are connected ☺️
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Thanks Cajondy.