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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Dorset => Topic started by: pettsy on Friday 03 October 08 13:41 BST (UK)
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Does anyone know where the records are for the prison?
I have found my gg grandmothers brother in Jail, on the 1871 census. Alfred McManus, 20, born Chelsea.
And rather sad, I seen to have found his death.
Alfred McManus 1873, 22 years, Weymouth. :-\
I will have to order the certificates, but would love to know if the records for the prison survive.
Pettsy
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Hello Pettsy
I notice there was a pretty comprehensive reply to a similar query on Roots a couple of years ago http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,113703.from1134949587/topicseen.html
hopefully this might still be relevant.
Also there is a small website on the subject
http://www.institutions.org.uk/prisons/England/DOR/portland_convict_prison.htm
which states the records are at Dorset Archives in Dorchester
The Somerset and Dorset Family History Society publish some material on the prison also
Good Luck
Sue
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Hi Sue,
Thank you for the links ;D
I have already contacted Dorset Archives, who do not hold the records.
They said to contact the National Archives. They said they'll charge £60 to search :o I only wanted to know if they held the dates I wanted before I went there.
I also contacted Kensington & Chelsea library to see if they had the local paper from 1871 and before, unfortunately the only papers they have start from 1872.
I can't open the second link :-\
Thank you.
Pettsy
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Hello Pettsy
Sorry to hear you are having a few problems trying to find the records
Have you tried Black Sheep http://blacksheepancestors.com/uk/portland_page.shtml
they seem to have an online search.
The link on the Paul Benyon web site does not work for me either - shame
The Somerset and Dorset FHS Transcriptions maybe useful. I have always found them helpful with information before I purchase anything and I am not a member!
Hope this brings you a bit more luck- fingers crossed
Sue
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Hi Sue,
I did try Black Sheep, but unfortunately the records on there start from 1881, I want 1871 and before.
I will contact the Somerset and Dorset FHS and see if they can help me.
Thank you for all your help.
My fingers are crossed too ;)
Pettsy
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Hi Sue,
I have just heard back from Somerset & Dorset FHS, they said the disc holds the names of all the prisoners from 1851 - 1871 census years.
There was a note on the file to say Ken Saunders (who produced the cd) was unable to get access to the actual prison records.
I will see what the death certificate says. I read that one prisoner died a week in there :o
Best wishes
Pettsy :D
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Hi Pettsy
Your reply was interesting - particularly about not being able to get access to the actual records.
It makes me wonder who has the records and why the information is being with held.
Lets hope the death cert proves interesting-maybe if there is something irregular there will be a newspaper report.
fingers crossed for you
All the best
Sue
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Hi Sue,
I thought that too. I hope they are at Kew for the years I want.
I was reading about the four men who were executed, and a mask was made of their faces :o
I cannot wait to see the death certificate now. To see how he died so young. I will let you know when it arrives.
Thanks for your help.
Pettsy :D
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I have failed to access records for 1901 from Portland prison at Kew. I believe they have them but they are not catalogued and can not yet therefore be accessed! ::) ::) ::)
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I'm interested in records covering 1881; got a "possible" as a prisoner. I've emailed Kew to see if they have the records available; just waiting for a reply.
Will let you know their response.
Nanny Jan
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Have you contacted Kew Northern Rose?
I couldn't see them on their catalogue either.
Nanny Jan I hope you receive the reply we both want.
Pettsy
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Well the response from Kew was not very helpful.
"We may hold records........recommend that you read ....research guide......
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/rdleaflet.asp?sLeafletID=120
Then you can either visit, use their paid service or hire an independent researcher."
A quick look at their guide shows records for Portland:
1853-1865 PCOM 2/368-391
1848-1875 HO 8/98-206
Looks like I'm back to square one but will read the guide. ???
Nanny Jan
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Hi Jan,
Similar response they gave me. ::)
I just want to know if they have it, then I'll go there in person to search for my ancestor. Even though I live in London I don't want to go all they way there and they don't have it.
I'll have to gather some other stuff to look for, and spend the day there.
When I do go, I will PM you and if you give the the info you have I will look for your "possible" ancestor.
Pettsy
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Thanks for the offer Pettsy, I'm going to Kew (with a coach trip organised by my local family history society) in a few weeks. I have a long list of things I want to look up, time will be limited, and was hoping to get a clearer answer from them. >:(
Will read through the guide and see if that makes things any clearer!
Nanny Jan
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That's great ;D
I will wait for you to tell me if they have them and what they hold ;)
Pettsy
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Pettsy, if you are looking for 1871 you might find something in HO 8/98-206 which, according to their guide, covers 1848-1875.
If you'd like to PM all the details for your prisoner I'll add them to my "things to look-up" list.
Nanny Jan
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Thank you Jan ;D
But only if you have time.
I will PM you the details I have.
Pettsy :)
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Time will depend on the coach bringing us from Dorset and the queues in Kew!
Nanny Jan
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Hope the traffic is not too bad for you.
I'd be happy to know they hold them ;D
;)
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Hi Jan,
Mum received the death certificate this morning, so I won't see it until see comes over on Saturday.
She said some of it was very hard to read.
What I know so far...
Alfred McManus.
died 16th Aug 1873, 9.15 pm.
22 years old.
? and in an ? accidental ? (legs?)
Residence of informant (mans name) Portland.
Registered 17th Aug 1873.
I wonder where they buried them?
Did they have a burial ground in or near the prison?
If I can't read the cert, I will scan it on here for help ;)
Pettsy
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Hi pettsy,
The cert should show where he died; it might just say Portland........not a lot of help!
I've never seen a time given before on a death cert.
News flash! Just found his burial on the Portland page at www.opcdorset.com:
21 Aug 1873 Alfred McMaras Portland Prison (St. George's Church)
So still a prisoner, perhaps that is why the time was noted. ???
Nanny Jan
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Hi again Jan,
I forgot to say his occupation was "PRISONER" :(
Thank you for finding his burial, ;D.
He was buried the day after his death was registered.
I haven't seen a time of death on a death cert either, but I presume it was because he was a prisoner.
I am off to look at St George's church now.
Just phone mum she still can't make out the cause of death, but she now says the dates say died 17th Aug and death registered 20th Aug.
Thanks Jan.
Pettsy :)
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Hi Jan
Here is the death cert.
Cause of death.........
Effusion of Serum in the Pericardium and into the cavity of the chest supervening on an accidental fractured leg. :'(
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So he died at the Convict Establishment Portland. You must not post whole certificates on here; just sections..........it's a copyright problem!
I'll try to find out more about the cause........
Nanny Jan
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Opps :-[ That's why I just scanned the middle bit. Thought that would be all right.
Thanks Nanny Jan :D
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Ummm....no! You should only scan sections of the details!
Just had a word with my surgeon son who said that the first bit " effusion of serum........" was probably caused by him falling and hitting his chest on something; probably all to do with the accident that ended with a fractured leg.
Poor chap.
Nanny Jan
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Thank you for asking you son, Nanny Jan.
Ouch, I have broken my leg twice.
I wonder if he fell during hard labour, of course we'll never know. :-\
Pettsy
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Just had a thought; the informant was the coroner so there should be a coroner's report somehwere! Possibly at the Dorset History Centre in Dorchester; might be worth a phone call/email to see if they hold them or if, because it was a prisoner's death, they are elsewhere (Kew?).
Nanny Jan
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Nanny Jan I have already contacted Dorset, to see if they can photo copy me a copy of the burial register.
I will contact them again regarding the coroners report.
Fingers crossed.
Thank you.
Pettsy
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Good luck! Let us know how you get on.
Nanny Jan
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Hi pettsy,
I'm sorry but not much to report; the queues for advice were very long........finally found someone to ask in the middle of the afternoon by which time it was too late to order anything. :(
He could not give much advice but suggested ordering the files that covered the time span and specifying any year/years of interest! Gave me two sets of info sheets (I think the same ones as available on their site) and also suggested searching www.oldbaileyonline.org
The 2 info packs are Tracing 19th & 20th Century Criminals (no. 78) and Sources for Convicts and Prisoners (no.88); 12 & 20 pages!
If you are interested in them I can post them on if you PM me with your address but there seems a huge variety........Female prisoners, Australian items, Criminal Lunacy.........
However, the society are planning more trips to Kew next year so hopefully I will have decided which are the most likely documents to order!
Nanny Jan
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Hi Nanny Jan,
Thank you for looking for me. Don't bother to post the info sheets, I will view them online. I should be able to go to Kew this year, hopefully. I will and try find out what I need to order and order it before I go. Fingers crossed they have something.
Did you manage to find out what you were looking for? I hope so.
I bet it is very busy there now they have closed the FRC and moved it all to Kew.
Thanks again.
Pettsy
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No luck on my prisoner; will try next time. Couldn't find my soldiers.....
Spent time getting lots of census details though!
Reasonably busy in there; as far as I know all the BMD registers from FRC are in store in Christchurch somewhere!
Good luck on your trip.
Nanny Jan
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Hi Pettsy,
Just come across this old thread as I am also researching an ancestor who died whilst at Portland Prison. He died in 1873 too.
Did you manage to find any further information on your ancestor and his time in the prison?
Allie
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Sorry Allie I have just seen your post :-\
I have just found an article on his death in the local newspaper, so at least now I know how he died.
Western Gazette 22 August 1873.
Fatal accident. A convict named Alfred Mc Manus met with an accident on Saturday last in the quarries, a stone that was being hoisted falling on him. He was taken to the Prison Infirmary, but expired from his injuries at nine o'clock on Sunday morning. An inquest was to held this (Tuesday) afternoon before R N Howard Esq.
I live in Devon now so plan to visit his grave next month. Did you find any info on your ancestor?
Karen