RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => London and Middlesex => Topic started by: tomatillo on Thursday 02 October 08 13:23 BST (UK)
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My husband's family have a family story/myth that they have Jewish roots. According to his (now sadly deceased) grandfather either his (my husband's) G or GG grandfather was buried in a Jewish cemetery in Golders Green and had Jewish ancestry. I am tracing the family and there is no hint of Jewish ancestry yet. I am, however, finding it very difficult to trace them prior to the 1871 census. They have a very common name and I don't know London well so I'd be grateful for any tips or help in tracing them and how to investigate the 'Jewish story' further.
The G Grandfather was Francis Henry Taylor born c1876 probably in St Giles in the Fields London. He married Emily Eliza Einchcombe on 10th April 1898 in All Saints Parish Church nr Peckham. I have their marriage certificate and his father was Benjamin Taylor. Francis was a coach japanner (sp?)
I have Benjamin George Taylor and his family in the 1871 and 1881 Census. I'm not sure how to give a folio reference for the census. In 1871 they are in 19a Tower Street, St Giles in the Fields (St Giles North, district 10) and 1881 in 9 Lidgate Road, Camberwell (camberwell, St george, district 11). Benjamin was a carpenter/cabinet maker. He was born c1835 and gives his place of birth as London City or Middlesex, London in the Census. His wife, Emma, is alone in the 1891 Census so presumably he died between 1881-1891. She gives various ages that take the year of birth to 1837-1840 and place of birth as Soho or Clarkenwell. She was a costumier or dressmaker and is listed as deaf in the 1881 and 1901 censuses.
I'd be very grateful for any help. As the name is so common I am finding it difficult to work out which GRO certificates are theirs. I can't find any strong matches in the pre-1871 censuses and to my (untutored) eye none of this looks likely to reveal Jewish roots....
Many thanks
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for the reference - on ancestry there is an option to 'view record'. Go to this and scroll down past the details of family and you will see 'source citation'.
class, piece, folio, page
for 1881 Class RG11/piece 696/folio 93/page 31
for 1871 RG10/352/22/37
You can put these in at the bottom of the search page on ancestry and just bring up the page with your family on.
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1881 RG11/696/93/31
Benjamin Geo Taylor 46 carpenter b City of LOndon
Emma 44 b City of London
Mary 18
Harriet 15
George 13
Benjamin 10
Francis 5
1871
Benjamin G Taylor 36 cabinet maker and fret cutter
Emma 31 b Clerkenwell
Mary C 8 b Clerkenwell
Harriet E 5 b St Giles
George H 2 b St Giles
Benjamin 8mths b St Giles
Have you had one of the children's birth certs for Emma's maiden name?
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This looks like a possible marriage for them
June 1861 Holborn 1b 696
Benjamin George Taylor to (one of the spouses) Emma Penford
(If you click on the district Holborn on freebmd, it will give you the areas covered by it. If you click on the page number gives possible spouses)
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Births (from freebmd )
March 1876 Strand 1b/683 Francis Henry Taylor
Sept 1870 St Giles 1b/520 Benjamin Thomas P Taylor
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Hello Silvery,
Many thanks for kindly looking at this for me. I think I will probably have to order that certificate for Francis Henry. As the name is so common and the location not quite where I thought it would be I was a little reluctant (I've spent far too many £7!).
I also thought that that marriage looked right but when I go back to the 1861 census and before, I can't find an Emma Penford who is a good fit with Emma Taylor's information. Nor can I find a strong match for Benjamin.
Thanks again for taking an interest
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No I can't find them earlier either. It may need the information from the marriage cert to do it.
when you order the certs from GRO you can specify checking points. so for birth of Francis Henry, specify father Benjamin, this will cost you £3 if it is not, and they will refund you £4, and if it is they will send you the cert.
Generally speaking though, just fill in the 'red starred' bits on the order form for the GRO.
The marriage looks right. I was wondering if the name got mangled from Penfold to Penford at the time. (thinking of an accent)
Just a thought though as the image does say Penford.
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According to his (now sadly deceased) grandfather either his (my husband's) G or GG grandfather was buried in a Jewish cemetery in Golders Green and had Jewish ancestry. I am tracing the family and there is no hint of Jewish ancestry yet.
It may help, for elimination purposes at least, to know that the Jewish Cemetery at Golders Green (Hoop Lane) was only established in 1895, with the first burials apparently taking place in 1897.
Anna
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Many thanks for that information avm228. I think the GG grandfather died before 1891 as he is not in the census so it would rule him out. Many thanks.
Thanks also for that information Silvery. I will order them and post here again.
I think I have probably watched too many 'who do you think you are' episodes as as soon as I had problems finding them I thought they must have name changed...
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Tomatilo
You have listed a father and a son with the same forename - Benjamin. This is a very strong Jewish name and it's one that appears time and time again in the Jewish branch of my London family from the 1800s.
Regards
Stewart
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Thankyou Stewart. I did think that Benjamin may be a clue (as one of the tribes of Israel) but wasn't sure. That's very interesting to know. Many thanks. Taylor seems such an ordinary English surname but perhaps it could be a translation at some point.
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I have researched my Jewish roots in great detail, and there is nothing very Jewish that I can see in the generations of your family we've seen so far.
The fact that your gggf, Benjamin George Taylor, named one of his sons Benjamin is a fairly obvious case of Christian naming practice. Jewish children were (are) given the name of deceased relative, never of a living one.
The IGI records the baptism of a Benjamin George Taylor in the Old Church, St. Pancras on 12 Jan 1835 (birth 29 Dec 1834), son of John and Mary.
A Benjamin Taylor married Emma Fooks in the same church on 25 Dec 1859.
You do really need to get some birth/marriage certs to move forwards (or backwards) with any certainty.
Justin
PS My mum's dad's ashes were interred in Golders Green cemetery. He was most definitely not Jewish; maybe someone in your family has jumped to some false conclusions.
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I have researched my Jewish roots in great detail, and there is nothing very Jewish PS My mum's dad's ashes were interred in Golders Green cemetery. He was most definitely not Jewish; maybe someone in your family has jumped to some false conclusions.
Yes, I wondered along those lines. Just opposite the Jewish cemetery in Hoop Lane is the (secular) crematorium, which opened at the turn of the last century. Perhaps that's caused some confusion in the family?
See e.g.:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golders_Green_Crematorium
Anna
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JustinL
You said:
"Jewish children were (are) given the name of deceased relative, never of a living one."
However I have generations of Jewish family members who passed on the names David Benjamin to their sons.
Regards
Stewart
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Many thanks for the answers. I think it's clear that more information is needed so I will order the most likely match for Francis Henry and hope it is right...
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Hi tomatillo,
I hope you get this. I would love to chat about your Taylor ancestors as I think my Mary Maria Taylor is your Benjamin George Taylors brother. Thanks