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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Northumberland => Topic started by: Chrislats on Wednesday 01 October 08 12:46 BST (UK)
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Hi
I'm new to the forum so would welcome advice from you old hands.
I have the birth certificate of my great-grandfather William Cruddace born 1853 in Newcastle. It lists his parents as William Cruddace and Elizabeth Nixon. I cannot find a marriage for William and Elizabeth or any trace of them on 1861, 1851 or 1841 census. I've tried all counties in case they moved about but still drawn a blank. Any suggestions?
Thanks a lot
Chris
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What was the father's occupation?
Could they have skipped over the border to Scotland?
when & where did "great-grandfather William Cruddace" Marry?
is this him in Durham 1861?
http://content.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?htx=view&r=5538&dbid=8767&iid=DURRG9_3720_3725-0136&fn=William&ln=Cruddas&st=d&ssrc=&pid=12423984
Pauline
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According to the birth certificate William's father was a labourer (as was William himself on the 1881 census)
I don't know where or when William's parents married, just their names from the birth certificate - William Cruddace and Elizabeth Nixon. They were living in the St John's district of Newcastle at the time of his birth in 1853. I've tried a census search using every spelling variation I can think of but none of them seem to match up. I didn't try Scotland, although I'm not sure why a labourer would travel that far as there seemed to be plenty of labouring work in Newcastle. Will give it a go though.
Thanks
Chrislats
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Hi
Welcome to rootschat.
I wonder if Dad died and mother remarried. If so, he might be under her new name? Can you give the reference for the 1881 census that you have for your gt grandfather William? There seem to be several that it could be. Who did he marry?
Andrea
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Not sure if this is relevant but in 1871 there is a William Cruddas grandson of Jane Savage in Newcastle RG10 5090 55 22
Jane Savage 78 b Beverley Yorks
James Cruddas 20 gson lab b Carlisle
William Cruddas 18 gson lab b Newcastle
Margaret Cruddas 16 gdau b Newcastle
Worth keeping on the back burner just in case. I cannot find them earlier.
Andrea
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Until I put this search into the IGI I had no idea how many variant spellings there are for the name. Some I would never have thought of. Crewdis/Crowdis/Crewdis etc. It does seem to be predominantly in the north though.
Andrea
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is this him in Durham 1861?
http://content.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?htx=view&r=5538&dbid=8767&iid=DURRG9_3720_3725-0136&fn=William&ln=Cruddas&st=d&ssrc=&pid=12423984
I know this Cruddas family! This William's parents are Thomas Cruddas and Sophia Wilson
I am also a Cruddace searcher so I will see if I can find anything.....
Claire
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All I have found out so far is that he wasn't baptised in St John's in 1853 (he could of course have been baptised after that but the Bishop's Transcripts don't go after 1853)
Will keep looking
Claire
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The trouble is that there do seem to be a few possibles so I would like to see census records so that we are sure it is the right birth certificate! Chrislats - do you have a marriage certificate for gt grandad?
Andrea
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Hi
Thanks everyone for your replies! I'm overwhelmed by the response.
I am pretty certain I have the correct birth certificate for William Cruddace (Sept Q 1853 10b 40). I have traced gr-grandfather William back through the 1901, 1891 and 1881 censuses and all show his birth as 1853 in Newcastle. I know they are the correct censuses as his daughter (my grandmother) appears and I know her details are correct.
I found a marriage for William Cruddes to Isabella Brown in June Q 1875 (10b 292). I know my gr=grandmother was Isabella so am fairly sure this is him. His first child was born in 1876 which ties in date wise. Before that he disappears.
I also found the census for 1871 showing William living with grandmother Jane Savage and thought this must be him but his birth certificate shows his mother as Elizabeth Nixon. I suppose Jane Savage could be Elizabeth Nixon's mother and either Jane remarried a Savage or Elizabeth was originally a Savage and married a Nixon before marrying William Cruddace. (Confused yet?!!! I am!)
I guess William's father could have died and his mother Elizabeth remarried to a Savage, making Jane her mother-in-law. I did find two deaths for a William Cruddas in March Q 1862 and Sept Q 1865
but have not found a marriage for Elizabeth Cruddas after that date.
However, even if one of these deaths is my William's father where is he in 1861? William would have been 8 and I cannot find any census that has a William of that age. The nearest I have found is for a William Darnell Cruddace born 1849 who has parents called William and Elizabeth, but I have tracked him on later censuses when I know where my William was, so have dismissed him.
I have ordered William and Isabella's marriage certificate to see if that throws any more light on it.
Thanks again for your help.
Chrislats
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Not sure if this is relevant but in 1871 there is a William Cruddas grandson of Jane Savage in Newcastle RG10 5090 55 22
Jane Savage 78 b Beverley Yorks
James Cruddas 20 gson lab b Carlisle
William Cruddas 18 gson lab b Newcastle
Margaret Cruddas 16 gdau b Newcastle
Worth keeping on the back burner just in case. I cannot find them earlier.
Andrea
This looks like the same family in 1861, although try as I might I cannot make Savage out of mother in law's name! The page has been damaged, so some birthplaces are not clear.
RG 9/ 3822/ Folio 80/ Page 17b/ Schedule 141
Bankside, Newcastle on Tyne
William Crudace, head, Widr, 29, iron moulder, Yorkshire ?
George do, son, 13, scholar, Cumberland ?
James do, son, 10, scholar, do
William do, son, 8, scholar, Newcastle
Margaret J. do , daur, 6, scholar, do
Jane Charge, mother in law, w, 65, Yorkshire, Beverley.
William senior's age is definitely given as 29, although the transcription gives it as 39.
Jennifer
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That was my own reading of the name as I did not look at the transcription. I could have got it completely wrong. Would not be the first time! I have just looked again and the transcription has Savage too. I cannot find your 1861 entry for some reason.
Andrea
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That was my own reading of the name as I did not look at the transcription. I could have got it completely wrong. Would not be the first time!
Sorry Andrea, I meant that I couldn't make Savage out of the name on the 1861 entry which I found, not the one which you provided
Jennifer
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There is a death for an Elizabeth Cruddace, 4th quarter 1859, Newcastle on Tyne 10b 43.
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Yes, I realised that JenB. Have now found the 1861 entry - not like Savage I agree. Let us know when you get that marriage certificate Chrislats.
Andrea
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Thanks for that. The 1861 entry certainly looks like it could be them. I suppose Charge and Savage said in a strong accent could be misinterpreted as each other to a hard of hearing census taker! I've certainly found other relatives with phonetic spellings that look nothing like the real name.
Still can't work out where Elizabeth Nixon comes into the equation though. Maybe it isn't the right birth certificate, although I couldn't find any others in 1853. I'll certainly report back when the marriage certificate arrives. Let's hope it sheds some light.
Chrislats
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I suppose Charge and Savage said in a strong accent could be misinterpreted as each other to a hard of hearing census taker!
Alternatively they wrote it so badly that 'Charge' was the best the enumerator could make of it.
I suppose that as a cross-check that you have got the right certificate for your William you could get that for his younger sister, Margaret J, aged 6 in 1861.
Margaret Jane Cruddace, 1q 1855, Newcastle on Tyne 10b 56.
Oddly, I can't find birth registrations for the two older siblings, supposedly born in Catlisle.
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Thanks JenB. I'll do that.
I haven't been able to find George or James in Carlisle either. I did find a George Cruddace on 1881 census who is the right age but he was born in Houghton-le-Spring, Durham. I know some of my other relatives have varying birthplaces listed on different census returns. Basically you can't trust any of them can you?!
Chrislats
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Finally received marriage certificate for William Cruddace (spelling now Cruddes) to Isabella Brown. His father is shown as William, a labourer, which matches the birth certificate. However, if the 1871 census is the right one and he is living with grandmother Jane Savage (or Charge on 1861) I had expected his father to have died before 1871. It doesn't say deceased on the marriage certificate in 1875. Would they have always recorded if the father was deceased? I know they do on the later certificates I've got. I suppose father might not have died and William and his siblings were just visiting grandmother in 1871, but that doesn't explain where William senior has disappeared to!
Both witnesses are members of the Brown family so while they give me a lead on Isabella's ancestors it doesn't move me forward very much with William's.
Any suggestions where to look next would be greatfully received.
Thanks a lot
Chrislats
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I had expected his father to have died before 1871. It doesn't say deceased on the marriage certificate in 1875. Would they have always recorded if the father was deceased?
It is definitely not the case that if the father was deceased it was always recorded on the marriage certificate. I have several examples in my own ancestry to prove this point. Quite often, it seems, this fact was entered only if the information was actually offered by the bride or groom, otherwise it was ignored.
So it is quite possible that William was indeed dead by the time of the marriage, or even perhaps by the time of the 1871 census.
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It doesn't say deceased on the marriage certificate in 1875. Would they have always recorded if the father was deceased?
see
http://www.rootschat.com/links/04i1/
and
http://www.rootschat.com/links/04i2/
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Thanks for that. They don't make it easy for us do they?
I did find a couple of deaths for William Cruddas in 1860s, guess I'll have to start ordering death certificates. This could work out quite expensive!
Chrislats
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Write to the office where the deathwas registered and say you only want it if it is husband of x and they usually send your cheque back if it is the not the right one. Unlike the GRO who charge to check for you.
Andrea
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Thanks for that advice. I've only dealt with GRO before.
Chrislats
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I am also new, I found this entry through googling my name
that is to say I am William Cruddace also as was my father who was born February of 1918 however we are Sunderland Cruddaces
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i am looking for Cruddace's in Sutherland, any info you have would be excelent.
i am stuck with a Robert and Catherine Cruddace, who were 30 in the 1841 census..
i am not sure how to trace back any further (i am new to this)
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Hi
Thought I'd give an update to my Cruddas family. I finally found the baptisms of William's older brothers in Carlisle - they were shown as George and James Carruthers! No wonder I couldn't find them. I have read that Cruddas and the various other spellings are all derived from Carruthers, which originates in Dumfries, Scotland.
I have also found the burial record for William's mother Elizabeth Cruddas (nee Nixon) in 1859 in Newcastle, which explains why she's missing from 1861 census. The rest of the family are living in Bankside, Newcastle, as shown in an earlier posting (thanks for that one JenB). I checked all the burial records for William Cruddas after 1861, but none match up with his age on 1861 census.
I also managed to find William's grandmother Jane Savage in 1851, she was a widow and still called Nixon but visiting a Patrick Savage in Carlisle, so I'm guessing they married, hence the name change. She had grandson George age 3 with her, but no sign of his parents William and Elizabeth. I've tried every variation of spelling I can think of, including Carruthers, but can't find them anywhere.
I've really hit a brick wall now, so would be grateful if anyone has any suggestions what to try next.
Thanks a lot
Chris Lats
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Just been reading the Cruddas/ Crewdis/Carruthers posts & empathise with you all but wonder if you have come across that name in the Whitby area in the 1800s?
My Gt grandmother, Elizabeth Cruddas, swore that she was 'blood Scotch', gave her place of birth as Glasgow but lived around Whitby all of her apparently non-married life & is proving a total mystery.
Having read of your non census recorded relatives, I'm wondering if they perhaps travelled to Scotland, had a daughter & returned to England with her.
Just a thought.
Good luck with the search x