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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: cymbeline on Tuesday 30 September 08 19:37 BST (UK)
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Hi all,
i live on the continent and just bought a victorian mourning brooch which i found on a fleamarket which quite intrigues me. Its made of gold and surrounded in pearls with 2 different hair colours. Inscribed on the back is the following: To the affectionate memory of Frederick Silver died Oct. 7th 1864 in his 82nd year. Also of Hannah Silver died Jan. 4th 1867 aged 80.
Enough info. to find them on the census - only i'm not signed up at the mo. so cant access the actual cencus record for more details : -(
Does anybody think there are relatives around today who would be interested in it. Would it be worth the bother of trying to find anyone - what do you think. I've asked for help a couple of times before and have only met lovely people...so i wondered if you would enjoy a mystery. I just wonder how it ended up in the middle of Europe?
Regards
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Middle of Europe? Where did you find it?
meles
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1861 RG9 378 139 19
Has a Frederick Silver with wife Hannah, in Camberwell, Surrey, just off to eat dinner so maybe someone else can post the details
Jane :D
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Good evening Meles,
i found it on a trip to Germany.
Regards
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Hi,
There is also a public members tree on A******y that has him and his wife Hannah Bye listed. I don`t know if you can you access this without membership or not. Last updated on 21st September so it is still current.
Mo
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Here are the details from 1861
2, De Crespigny Park, Camberwell
Frederick Silver, 78, Minister ( Dissenting), Middlesex, London
Hannah, wife 74, London, Black ?
Sara Udall, dau, 51, wife to Fundholder, Islington
Frances Silver, dau, 38, unm, No occupation, Brighton, Sussex
Lydia Smith granddau, 31 unm " " Westminster
Charlotte Albroth(?) 31, Cook, Oxford, Stanton
Emma Shepherd, 29, House Servant, Surrey, Camberwell
Jen
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That is a splendid find. I wonder if it would be possible to trace any descendants. The 1861 census makes it look as though we may not find any direct descendants with the name Silver and Lydia was unmarried age 31 and if she did marry that line might be hard to trace.
However, Mo has seen something that does indicate possible direct descendants.
I see neither of the parents in 1851 but in 1841 Frederick and Hannah are with Frederick, a son presumably, b. 1812. There is also a young Benjamin, 3, perhaps a grandson and a 30 year old Hannah Heydon [a married daughter?].
The trouble is that I do not find that Frederick, the son in later censuses.
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Tombstone inscription from St. Georges, Beckenham:
Hannah widow of Frederick SILVER 4 January 1867 the anniversary of her 80th birthday. Her last words "He is my Salvation and my glory". Frederick Silver 7 October 1864 in his 82nd year. F J Silver 21 June 1865 in 53rd. Francis Grace Silver 20 September 1884 aged 62
So that is the son Frederick born 1812 and we can see that Frances from the 1861 census never married.
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What a fabulous find! I'd be happy to contact the owner of the tree on Ancestry for you, and give them the link to this page so they can get in touch with you if they're interested in it. Let me know if you'd like me to do this. Alternatively someone who's got a sub to Genes Reunited could search on there. I haven't, so I can't do it for you myself.
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Hi,
I have checked on Genes Reunited and there is at least one person who might be interested in your find. I will contact them if you would like me to.
Jen
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Fascinating! I'd like to see the results of this search.
Kathleen
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Genjen,
thanks for those details. Fascinating ! I'm having a research break at the mo and so all my subscriptions have lapsed. May i take you up on your offer to contact the Silver on GR?
Thanks so much
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Thanks Mo for pointing me in the direction of Ancestry. I had a quick look last night, but wasn't successful. I'm off again now to look.
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I will send a GR message tonight Will probably tell him about this thread so that if he is interested, he can have alook and see what's going on. If he wants to make contact directly with you, I will send you a PM with details.
I had a look at the tree on Ancestry. If its the same one as Mo saw, it is a huge tree and includes Royalty!
Jen
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Hi Hackstaple, all very interesting stuff. In the 1841 Census did Benjamin have the Silver surname? He could possible be the son of Frederick jun. who died aged 53. (It seems none of them inherited their parents longevity!) Sweet last words ! Amazing info. thanks.
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Aniseed, could you pls contact the owner of the tree on ancestry if you have your finger on it ? I'm having trouble finding it but i'm off for another look. Thanks.
Jan
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thanks to all for your help and contributons...really. Jan
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1851 HO107/1480/474/3 Mistranscribed on Ancestry as Felver
10 James St, Westminster St Margaret
Frederick Felver 68 (1783), Scotland "Minister? of Gospel"
Hannah Felver 64 (1787), West Indies not if you look at the image
Frances Felver 26 (1825), Beighton, Sussex
Paul
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It is dreadful handwriting on that 1851 page but it plainly doesn't say Felver or West Indies!
Not sure what it does say for Hannah's place of birth and Frederick seems to have changed nationality. He says he was born in London in the 1861 census.
I have contacted two people on GR offering them the chance to have a look at this thread or to be put in touch direct.
Here's hoping for a response.
Jen
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Cymbeline
The 1841 census is not the best possible compilation of data as we all know. In this case the enumerator simply put a lot of ditto lines down under surname. Yet we can be reasonably sure that Benjamin was not a Silver but neither can we say for sure that he was a Heydon [there is a 27 year old Ann whose surname is dittoed beneath Hannah Heydon and then comes Benjamin] although I would start there if I were tracing my own ancestors.
Even the spelling of Heydon is a bit iffy.
The 1871 census shows our Hannah Heydon visiting Elizabeth Syme, owner of a toy Bazaar at Speldhurst Kent. She is accompanied by a 12 year old Catherine Heydon. So I search for her as a daughter of Benjamin - without success.
He looks like the 13 year old, born Warwick, who is a pupil at Mr Rodbard's school in Croydon in 1851. That would make him Benjamin Rookes Frederick Heydon, registered Mar 1838 in Warwick. But that man married in 1854 at the ridiculously young age of 16, Camberwell, Jun 1854!
Anyone else like to take my seat?
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Sarah Udall is in 1861 at RG9/378/139/9 with:
John Udall "Merchant"
Lydia Smith (step Daughter)
Sarah A Smith (step Daughter)
Not sure if it would be possible to trace the girls but Lydia is clearly a direct descendant of Frederick Silver. Sarah Udell (nee Silver) presumably married a Smith before John Udall.
Paul
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The tree on Ancestry shows two marriages for Sarah.
Jen
I just had another look - the first marriage is quite simply entered as Smith - no other details. her marriage to John Udall is entered as 1844.
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Aniseed, could you pls contact the owner of the tree on ancestry if you have your finger on it ? I'm having trouble finding it but i'm off for another look. Thanks.
Jan
Ancestry's just hanging for me tonight, pretending to load but never getting there. I'll keep trying for a while longer. PM me in the meantime if you manage to find it and make contact - don't want to inundate the poor person with messages to look at Roots Chat!
Modified at 22.30h to add: Have just managed to send a message to the owner of the tree on Ancestry.
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I am linked to this family via Frederick and Hannahs son Samuel (a solictor and vicar). The Silvers were involved in a very famous Chancery case Stubbs v Sargon (amongst others).
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Hi all,
i live on the continent and just bought a victorian mourning brooch which i found on a fleamarket which quite intrigues me. Its made of gold and surrounded in pearls with 2 different hair colours. Inscribed on the back is the following: To the affectionate memory of Frederick Silver died Oct. 7th 1864 in his 82nd year. Also of Hannah Silver died Jan. 4th 1867 aged 80.
Enough info. to find them on the census - only i'm not signed up at the mo. so cant access the actual cencus record for more details : -(
Does anybody think there are relatives around today who would be interested in it. Would it be worth the bother of trying to find anyone - what do you think. I've asked for help a couple of times before and have only met lovely people...so i wondered if you would enjoy a mystery. I just wonder how it ended up in the middle of Europe?
Regards
.
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Hi jellybaby,
Welcome to Rootschat. can you tell us any more about them? We are all fascinated by this mourning brooch and the story behind the people.
Jen
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Frederick Silver b 27/1/1782 in Clapham married Hannah Bye (daughter of John and Ann) on 24/8/1804 at the Holy Trinity in Clapham. Their children are Samuel (1805-1856) Joseph (1806 b& d)
John (1808-1884) Ebenezar (1820) and Mary (1825) John was a bit of a trouble maker by the looks of things as he is constantly suing his siblings over money. He never appears to actually ever work although he lists himslef as a clerk which could have meant anything from being a clergyman to being an accountant.
Samuel was a solicitor and then becomes a vicar in Cambridge. he marries twice. Firstly to Caroline Innel and then Mary Bird. They have six children between them (including another Frederick in 1842)
Frederick senior seemed to own property in Symonds Inn,Chancery Lnae and Cheapside and was a member of the board of the European Life Insurance Company in Blackfriars (his son Samuel was too).
Hope all this helps.
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I've just had a message from one of the people on GR, giving me an email address. I have sent a PM with this info to Cymbeline so with a bit of luck, we'll find out some more about the mystery soon.
Jen
Or is that you - jellybaby?
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Welcome jellybaby :)
Can you solve a puzzle for us then. You list the children of Frederick Silver and Hannah up to one born 1825. Yet the 1861 census and the Beckenham memorial show a Frederick born 1812 and Frances born 1822. Who are they then? ???
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Hi Jellybaby, and welcome to Rootschat. Thanks for all that info. I wonder who it was that had the brooch made. Maybe Mary the daughter? I always love filling in details from the very barest of outlines. It's things like this that make the ancestors really come alive.
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yes I am the one from GR who gave Jen? the e mail address.
I will drag out all my paperwork from the Silver's and see if I can answer the questions people are asking. I'll try and get back to you all later this evening.
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yes I am the one from GR who gave Jen? the e mail address.
I will drag out all my paperwork from the Silver's and see if I can answer the questions people are asking. I'll try and get back to you all later this evening.
Yep! That's me.. ;D We're all looking forward to more on this and so glad you responded. :D
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Just bookmarking out of interest.
mab
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Frances Grace Silver was born in 1822 in Brighton (the same place as Ebenezar) and baptised on 27/12/1822. Note on the 1881 census she is living with Sarah Milull aged 71 born Islington who is listed as her sister. Also there is Lydia Smith aged 51 born Westminster.....Frances does not marry.
Got to go sort out a problem with the daughters car so will try and get back to you later
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not having much luck finding my paperwork except I have found the notes I made about the Chancery Case of Silver v Bye in 1837 and this may answer a few of the queries floating about.
Plaintiffs in the case were Samuel Silver and others
Defendants were Thomas Bye, George Bye, Rebecca Olney (aunt to Hannah Bye, Ann Olney married John Bye ie Hannah parents) John Harvey Olney Silver (the trouble maker) George Griffiths, SARAH SMITH (sister to Samuel and at this time a Smith before marrying Udall) Thomas Heydon and wife (Hannah Haydon as found with Frederick and Hannah on the 1841 census. She was a daughter of Fredericks who married Thomas Heydon in 1831 at St Martin in the Fields. Frederick Joseph Silver (the son b1812 named after the father and grandfather) Ann Silver, Eliza Mercy Silver, Ebenezar David Silver, Frances Grace Silver , Mary Silver. Therefore it is most probable that the Ann and Frederick mentioned on the 1841 census are Silvers and are children of Frederick and Hannah, I suspect that the Benjamin everyone was referring to is Benjamin Heydon b1838 in Warwick (son of Thomas and Hannah)
If I remember correctly this case was about Ann Bye nee Olneys will.
As I said before Samuel and siblings were involved in many Chancery cases. Samuel was the exceutor of his mother in law Mary Innells will and was a nephew by marriage of Elizabeth Ives , who's will casued a massive chancery case that led to the changes in the law that allowed women to inherit and own property in their own right even if they were married. An original womens libber!!!
As I mentioned earlier about the 1881 census Sarah Milull (Udall)'s daughter Lydia Smith is 51 by this time so it is highly unlikely that she married and had children.
Hope this answers everyones queries and if I ever find my full notes and find anything else of interest I will get back to you all.
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in case anyone is interested in what happened to Benjamin
Benjamin HEYDEN Head M Male 43 Warwick, Warwick, England Railway Goods Agent (Carman)
Sarah HEYDEN Wife M Female 44 Peckham, Surrey, England Railway Goods Agent Wife
Alice HEYDEN Daur U Female 17 Neyland, Pembroke, Wales Goods Agent Daur
Francis HEYDEN Daur Female 12 Llanelly, Carmarthen, Wales Scholar
Abigael HEYDEN Daur Female 11 Llanelly, Carmarthen, Wales Scholar
Caroline HEYDEN Daur Female 8 Llanelly, Carmarthen, Wales Scholar
Edward HEYDEN Son Male 3 Llanelly, Carmarthen, Wales
Ann JONES Serv U Female 28 Llangunnor, Carmarthen, Wales General Serv Domestic
James CLARKES Visitor M Male 27 Staveley, Derby, England Railway Clark
Catherine CLARKES Visitor M Female 22 Swansea, Glamorgan, Wales Railway Clarks Wife
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Source Information:
Dwelling 12 Brigstocke Ter
Census Place Carmarthen St Ishmael, Carmarthen, Wales
Family History Library Film 1342299
Public Records Office Reference RG11
Piece / Folio 5394 / 101
Page Number 14
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Hi
I've been following this with great interest, what an intriguing thread!
So as another son John has been found, does anyone know if he had any children?
I found these census entries:
1851 Census HO107 piece 1574 folio 53 page 43
Longton Place Terrace or Street, Kennington, Surrey
John Silver Head Mar 47 Clerk out of Employment b Ely Place Holborn
1871 Census RG10 piece 733 folio 11 page 17
17 Nelson Square, Peckham (Camberwell) Surrey
John Silver Head 64 Clerk out of Employ b Holborn
Charlotte Wife 66 b Island of Malta
1881 Census RG11 piece 688 folio 10 page 13
17 Nelson Square, Peckham
John H O Silver Head 73 Gentleman b Middlesex Holborn
Charlotte Wife 78 b Malta Colony
Kind regards
Gaie
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the John you have found is the John Harvey Olney Silver I was talking about and I suspect that he did not have any children as I can never find any with them on the census records and his wife is getting on a bit.
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Thanks for filling in some of the gaps of the Silver family mystery, Jellybaby!
Samuel ... was a nephew by marriage of Elizabeth Ives , who's will casued a massive chancery case that led to the changes in the law that allowed women to inherit and own property in their own right even if they were married. An original womens libber!!!
What a wonderful thing to find in your family history! I think I've heard of that case, although I can't remember the names, so it might have been another one, but certainly something similar was mentioned in a TV programme I saw a few years ago. I've found several wills where the male testator specified that if his wife remarried she would loose her inheritance, presumably because he didn't want his estate to become the property of some other man. The case with Elizabeth Ives must have meant that women could keep their own money and land even when they remarried. We really don't know what people had to go through in order to end up with the basic rights we take for granted now.
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A picture of the brooch for those who are interested and offered help in finding the Silver family. I have been in touch with them and i was thrilled at their positive reaction, as they were to see the brooch. Now i realise that somewhere down the line i will have to part with it - as of course such a thing does belong back in the family, but i'm going to ask for a period of grace so that I can enjoy it for a time, and then we'll see. Thanks again for the help.
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Oh dear,
That must be so hard for you. It is lovely and if I had found it, I'd want to keep it. But if it belonged in my family, I'd be desperate to have it back. What a dilemma!
Thank you for showing us the brooch and enjoy it whilst you can.
Jen
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I just found this thread, and it is fascinating. Good work Rootschatters, and welcome Jellybaby. What a great find for you. I agree I would have a hard time parting with it cymbeline, but remember, what comes around goes around, and hopefully your turn will come. :)
Kath
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Thanks for posting the photo, Cymbeline, it's a beautiful thing. You're right about it belonging with the family, but I can see how hard it would be to let it go. I hope you really enjoy it while you have it, and what a generous thing to do to find the family and maybe reunite them with it. I wonder who sold it in the first place?