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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Sussex Lookup Requests => Sussex => England => Sussex Completed Lookup Requests => Topic started by: omega 1 on Friday 26 September 08 18:53 BST (UK)
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Hi
Hoping someone has access to Penhusrt Parish Records.
Mary Ann was born c1854.Would love to know who Mum & Dad were.
Mary Ann had illigimate son George Nelson Mitchell in 1875,no Dads name.Born in Hastings.
On the 1881 census,Mary Ann is with son & man also George Nelson Mitchell,claiming to to be Wife. Living in Hastings.I have them on 1891 & 1901.
I have searched full Birth Index for her birth,nothing.
I had Hastings Register Office do a search for a marriage,nothing.
I also seached full index for marriage from 1875 to 1901,nothing.
Grateful for any help
Omega
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Hi
When you say her son is illegitimate does that mean you have his birth certificate? Is her name Mitchell then? Or is it Nelson? There are several Nelson Mitchell births in Hastings on FreeBMD.
What do the birth certificates for the later children say? They should give her maiden name. Oh, I see that in 1891 George is shown as George N M Bishop. Still shown as the son of the elder George. Is that her maiden name??
Andrea
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Hi Andrea.
Yes,i do have the Birth Cert.
George Nelson Mitchell, name of son, where a fathers name should be its Blank.Mothers name Mary Ann Bishop.
She never married the father who was also George Nelson Mitchell,they just lived together.
We do have another birth cert,OHs Grandfather 1889.Mary Ann Mitchell,formerly Bishop.But no marriage has ever been found.
Omega
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It is a long shot but could Mary Ann have been married before so the marriage would not be as Bishop? My first thought also was to wonder whether it was Penshurst Kent rather than the Sussex Penhurst.
Andrea
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Just double checked the census i have.All 3 say Penhurst ,Sussex.
I also searched full index for marriage of George Nelson Mitchell & just George Mitchell from 1875 to 1901,nothing.
I have`nt been able to find her on the 1861 or 1871 census.I have looked through all the surrouding parishes.
She`s a complete mystery.
I think a trip to Lewis Archives will hopefully sort her out.
Thank-you for your suggestions
Omega
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Re the 1881 census
There are two other children?
William aged 2 born Hastings
Alice aged 4 born Hastings
Maybe a look at their birth certs may reveal something.
Regards
Sean
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Hi,
If this is the ref for George's birth then he is registrered as BISHOP with the forenames George Nelson M (Mitchell),
George Nelson M BISHOP Sep Q 1875 Hastings 2b 22
whereas it looks like Alice E was registered as MITCHELL,
Alice Elizabeth MITCHELL Sep Q 1877 Hastings 2b 15
Not sure how that helps :-\ but it might narrow down marriage if there was one :)
Regards
Daisy
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Hi Daisy
I have a copy of the origanal Birth Certificate
23rd July 1875,12,Courthouse Street,All Saints,Hastings.
Name of child George Nelson Mitchell,no dads name,mother Mary Ann Bishop,Domestic Servant.
She has had me tearing my hair out for 3 years,but thank-you .
Kind Regards
Omega
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Hi Daisy
Having looked myself there is clearly something not right with the Birth Cert we have.
I will apply for the one you found from GRO on Monday.
Thank-you for pointing out the info.
Kind Regards
Omega
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Just double checked the census i have.All 3 say Penhurst ,Sussex.
One of them certainly says Hastings. Another says Penshurst with an s then has Sussex added in the last column.
If you got the birth certificate from the local office it will not have the same reference numbers but should have the same information as a copy of it will have been sent to the GRO. Can you scan in what you have? You may be wasting £7 sending for another one. The surname of the child only appears as under the column for father - or in this case mother. So "Name if any" has his Christian names - in this case George Nelson Mitchell are all first names and his surname is Bishop - as indicated by his mother's name. Does that make sense?
In 1871 there is a domestic servant in Hastings called Mary A Bishop but her place of birth is Robertsbridge.
Are you anywhere near an LDS centre? Oh, I see you can get to Lewes. The Penhurst registers may well solve the riddle as you suggested.
Andrea
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Hi Andrea
The info Daisy found,George Nelson Mitchell Bishop as far as i can see is right.
I looked on full index under Mitchell.there is no George Nelson.
I have looked on the 1891,George N H Bishop.
I will phone GRO up Monday & explain to them see what they come up with.
The Cert we have was given to us,as no use to the person.
The name George Nelson Mitchell was in 4 generations,the last one dying in 1975.
Lewes is a must.Blooming woman`s giving my night mares :-[
Thank-you
Omega
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Robertsbridge is just under 7 miles from Penhurst. On the 1861 census you then have this entry.
1861 RG9 571 folio 7
Salehurst Robertsbridge Sussex
Samuel Bishop 52 Head Married Ag lab Westfield Sussex
Mary Bishop 49 Wife Married Salehurst Sussex
William Bishop 30 Son Ag lab Salehurst Sussex
James Bishop 16 Son Ag lab Salehurst Sussex
Henry Bishop 14 Son Ag lab Salehurst Sussex
George Bishop 10 Son Ewhurst Sussex
Mary Ann Bishop 8 Daughter Ewhurst Sussex
BISHOP, Mary Anne Christening
Christening Date:26 Sep 1852 Salehurst, Sussex
Father:Samuel BISHOP
Mother:Mary
Some baptisms in Hastings
MITCHELL, Alice Elizabeth
Christening Date:8 Jul 1877 All Saints Hastings, Sussex
Father:George MITCHELL
Mother:Mary
MITCHELL, Florence Mary Ann Christening
Christening Date:12 Aug 1887 St Clement Hastings, Sussex
Father:George Nelson MITCHELL
Mother:Mary Ann
MITCHELL, Mercy Jane
Birth Date:1886
Christening Date:12 Aug 1887 St Clement Hastings, Sussex
Father:George Nelson MITCHELL
Mother:Mary Ann
plus a possible
BISHOPP, Mary Elizabeth
Christening Date:7 Sep 1875 All Saints Hastings, Sussex
Mother:Mary Ann BISHOPP
Births Mar 1874
Bishop Mary Elizabeth Hastings 2b 16
Deaths Sep 1875
BISHOP Mary Elizabeth 1 Hastings 2b 16
If there was an impediment to Mary Ann Bishop and George Nelson Mitchell marrying, it might be worth checking out other possible marriages in Hastings or checking with the local registrar that there isn't a Mitchell/Bishop marriage in case it has been missed off the GRO index.
Regards
Valda
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I had not thought of George being already married. Did you search earlier than 1875 omega? He is unmarried in 1871 and with his parents. If this is Mary Ann in Salehurst, which looks a distinct possibility, then she alters her birth date a bit on the census but we have seen that before!
Andrea
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Hi Valda
Thank -you for your time,i will copy and digest the info.The Hastings Register Office did a 5 year search for a marriage after George Nelson was born.Maybe i could get them to look further.
May i ask where you found the Baptisums
Hi Sillgen
George Nelson is at home on the 1871,with Mum,Dad & siblings.
I have look for marriages between 1871 & 1881,
Kind Regards to you both
Omega
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Hi Omega
The baptisms are from the BVRI - British Vital Records Index, a set of CDs which are supplements to the IGI. The Hastings coverage is probably of BTs (Bishops Transcripts) and not necessarily from the parish registers themselves and so might not have complete coverage of them.
It doesn't cover Penhurst registers.
The Salehurst Mary Ann might be the correct Mary Ann but also might not. There is at least one Mary Ann Bishop(p) marriage in Hastings registration district that might possibly be this Mary Ann or another. Mary Ann Mitchell's age gets younger as the censuses go on, but always younger than her husband. If she was the Mary Ann from Salehurst then she would be older than George and might be adjusting her age in consequence.
Marriages Dec 1876
Bishop Mary Hastings 2b 35
(by the 1881 census in Hastings possibly a woman born Hastings in circa 1855 who married William Kent)
Marriages Jun 1877
BISHOPP Mary Ann Hastings 2b 62
(by the 1881 census in Hastings this might be a Mary A born in circa 1849 in Tunbridge who married James Steward)
Regards
Valda
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Hi Valda
The Mitchell line is OHs .His Grandfather was a younger son of George & Mary Ann.
We have decided to go to the Register Office with birth cert & info on full index of George Nelson M Bishop to see if they can explain why.That will be Tuesday.
I am going to phone up Lewes tomorrow for a time slot to go through the Parish Records.
Its annoying the 1861 Census for Penhurst is missing.
Will let you know the outcome.
Thank-you again
Omega.
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Hi to people who helped with this thread
I am feeling a bit embarrassed with regards to George Nelson Mithcell birth cert.I dont know how i could be SO THICK,cant tell you what i called myself . Of course his surname was Bishop.But he then started using the surname Mitchell.
We have been over to the Records Office.OH looked right through the Penhurst baptiums,they were no Bishops at all.
If i remember rightly,Valda found a Mary Ann on the 1861 born Ewhurst.
I have found a Mary Ann on the 1871 in Hastings,born Robertsbridge,but right age.
I will see if i can get the Registrar to do a longer search for a marriage.
Thank-you
Omega
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Salehurst and Robertsbridge is a civil parish in East Sussex, England. The parish includes the villages of Robertsbridge, Salehurst and Northbridge Street.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salehurst
from sillgen
In 1871 there is a domestic servant in Hastings called Mary A Bishop but her place of birth is Robertsbridge.
from my earlier post
Robertsbridge is just under 7 miles from Penhurst. On the 1861 census you then have this entry.
1861 RG9 571 folio 7
Salehurst Robertsbridge Sussex
Samuel Bishop 52 Head Married Ag lab Westfield Sussex
Mary Bishop 49 Wife Married Salehurst Sussex
William Bishop 30 Son Ag lab Salehurst Sussex
James Bishop 16 Son Ag lab Salehurst Sussex
Henry Bishop 14 Son Ag lab Salehurst Sussex
George Bishop 10 Son Ewhurst Sussex
Mary Ann Bishop 8 Daughter Ewhurst Sussex
BISHOP, Mary Anne Christening
Christening Date:26 Sep 1852 Salehurst, Sussex
Father:Samuel BISHOP
Mother:Mary
Ewhurst is about 5 miles away from Salehurst but much closer 'as the crow flies'.
1871 census RG10 1047 folio 45
Northbridge Street Salehurst
Samuel Bishop 62 Head Married Labourer on turnpike road Westfield Sussex
Mary Bishop 59 Wife Married Salehurst Sussex
1851 census HO107 1636 folio 253
Furnance? Lands? Ewhurst
Samuel Bishop 46 Head Married Agricultural Labourer Sedlecomb Sussex
Mary Bishop 39 Wife Married Salehurst Sussex
Thomas Bishop 15 Son Agricultural labourer Saleshurst Sussex
Sophia Bishop 11 Daughter Salehurst Sussex
Harriot Bishop 8 Daughter Salehurst Sussex
James Bishop 6 Son Salehurst Sussex
Henry Bishop 4 Son Salehurst Sussex
George Bishop 8 Months Son Ewhurst Sussex
1871 census RG10 1031 folio 66
8 Cambridge Terrace Holy Trinity, Hastings Sussex
Mary A Bishop 19 General Servant Robertsbridge, Sussex
Still doesn't prove that it is the correct Mary Ann Bishop who later lived with George Nelson Mitchell.
Have you explored the Hastings church registers e.g. for baptisms like this (a late baptism at roughly the time George Nelson Mitchell Bishop was born) or burials, to see if more information is given in the register which might give further Hastings addresses.
BISHOPP, Mary Elizabeth
Christening Date:7 Sep 1875 All Saints Hastings, Sussex
Mother:Mary Ann BISHOPP
but born 1874, death registered shortly after baptism.
Regards
Valda
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Hi Valda
The Cert i have for George is the correct one but got myself in a muddle.
I have young George Nelson Mitchell on the 1901 census,in the Royal Navy,in port,Bermada.We have his Service records.
We have his Death Cert,28th June 1930,at Barming Heath Hospital,Chatham.He had been a Rigger at the Dock Yards.
Think he was a bit of a Lad after reading cause of Death (yikes)
The only way of solving Mary Ann is hopefully a Marriage can be found.If not will have to give up
Thank-you
Omega
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Depends when she died and if she gives you another shot at her birthplace on the 1911 census.
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/1911census/
Regards
Valda
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From what i have read,hopefully they start releasing 1911 next year
Lets keep everything crossed,we are all waiting
Omega
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Hi All
I now have the 1911 census.
George Nelson Mitchell,stated he was a Widower & been married 37 years.
I still cant find a marraige & even worse cant find a Death for Mary Ann,
using Mitchell or Bishop.
Looking back at the 1901,there is a Brother with them,Harry Campbell,aged 40,from Herstmonceux.
I then looked to see if a could find a marriage between a Bishop & Campbell & drew a blank.
I am now wondering if Mary Ann`s Dad died & Mum remarried.
I am going round in for ever decreasing circles.
Its a nightmare
Omega
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Hello,
Have you solved your Mary Ann Bishop birth record yet? If not, try loooking at Battle Dec 1852 2b 39.
Regards
Flavia
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The Battle birth registration is the candidate already discussed in detail on the first page of this topic.
Mary Anne Bishop
Christening: 26 SEP 1852 Salehurst, Sussex
Father: Samuel Bishop
Mother: Mary
Harry Campbell may very well be a boarder not a brother (the relationship should be to the head of household) and this is a census enumerator's mistake. On the 1891 and 1881 censuses he is in Hastings married to Maria born Warbleton or Whatlington. A slightly younger 'Henry' Campbell born Warbleton is with parents Thomas and Dinah in Sandhurst Kent in 1871.
Mary Ann and George may never have married. Some people just didn't get around to it. It was much more common than people think. There may have been a reason for it such as a previous marriage by either partner that broke down, or once they had begun living together it would have been to problematical in later life to have married and admitted all those years they were not married and the children were actually illegitimate.
Mary Ann's death may not have occurred in Hastings if she died while visiting any of her children or other relatives. Do you know where all the grown up children were between 1901 and 1911? It might then be worth searching for any likely death registrations in those areas.
The most likely Mary Ann Mitchell death registrations (and of course her death could just have been registered as Mary) appear to be the 1905 one in Steyning Sussex and the 1902 in Brentford Middlesex.
Regards
Valda
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Hi Valda
Thank-you for all your suggestions & look ups you have done.
With a marriage for George Nelson & Mary Ann,we were just clutching at straws..
We have discussed at length possible scenarios as to where Mary Ann died IE visiting children.
I think i`ll have to wait until the 1911 is hopefully put on main site.
On the 1901 i found 1 son in the Navy in Bermuda & another one on Holiday curtesy of HM Navel Prison ,Bodmin,Cornwall :D.
So i need to find them .
The Surname Mitchell in Hastings is common,so i have to be careful of getting things right.
King Regards
Omega
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Hello everyone.
UPDATE
Regarding Mary Ann Bishop.To cut a long very story short,she changed her name :-X :-X :-X.
She confessed to a daughter about her name before she died,have Death Cert.Her name,Charity Campbell.
SFHG have just updated the Baptisumns again.
Yesterday I found her Baptisumn in PEASMARSH,could`nt believe my eyes
omega :)