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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Sussex => England => Sussex Lookup Requests => Topic started by: Royalgaz on Friday 26 September 08 14:01 BST (UK)
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Hello
If anyone can help on this mystery I would be very grateful. My rellie Richard Adams Upton was born circa 1818 in Southwick, Sussex. From IGI extracted record it says his parents were John Upton & Virtue. However can not trace any other siblings for these parents, or a marriage record.
I am hoping someone will be to check the original baptism record supposedly 22/02/1818 and verify if these were the correct parents.
His marriage certificate says his father was John Upton (a labourer).
Thank you Gary
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The Sussex Marriage Index does not have a marriage for John Upton to Virtue as far as I can see. The only Southwick one anywhere near in time was in 1828. John Upton to Rhoda Sturt of New Shoreham. However it may be worth noting that there is a marriage in Portslade in 1795 for John Upton to Sarah Adams.
Andrea
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Thanks Andrea, it's very mystifying. Hopefully someone will be able to check the baptism record for me.
Gary
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It may be a long shot, but in Kingston (next to Southwick) in October 1796, you have a Virtue Adams marrying a John Martin of Southwick, and they produced a daughter called Virtue Martin who was bapt Southwick Sept 1798.
Given that a mother's or in this case grandmother's maiden name can often appear as a second christian name, a search for a John Upton appearing on a marriage, bastardy order, or even just connected to a birth to a Virtue Martin circa 1818 could be a line worth following up. Dont forget, not everything is on the IGI.
Roy G
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Post script
Another "coincidence!"
Virtue Martin's only recorded brother was a Richard Martin, bapt Southwick 1800.
Roy G
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That is interesting Roy. Well worth following up.
Andrea
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Going to add a tiny additional snippet, especially if someone can get hold of a Southwick marriage and burial register.
As Andrea found the only Southwick marriage of a John Upton was to Rhoda Sturt of New Shoreham in 1828, what if this was a second marriage? It may therefore be worth having a look to see if that John Upton was a widower and if so, for the death of a Virtue Upton between 1818 and 1828.
If that was not the case, you could try to find out if the couple (John & Virtue) survived long enough to be enumerated in the 1841 & 1851 censuses. Richard Adams Upton, the son who married in 1845, might even be found living with them in 1841, or alternatively with his father and step mother.
I know much of this is still speculation, but when you are stumped, it occasionally helps to think a little bit outside the box
Roy G
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Thank you Roy. I never thought about the fact that the Sarah marriage could possibly be a second marriage and would fit.
Thank you for your suggestions they are very helpful. I have already traced Richard from 1841 census through to his death and sadly he never lives with his parents or any siblings. In 1841 he was a servant, then in 1845 he got married and lives with his wife and children for the rest of the years (no other Adam's or Upton's on the pages, but may check for Martin).
I have taken your suggestion about a Richard Martin bapt 1800, but can not locate him either on the census, unless his birthplace has been noted as somewhere else in Sussex, then there are quite a few sadly.
Fingers crossed someone will be able to access the records for me, as now I am even more intrigued, thanks to your suggestions.
Thanks regards Gary
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Giving you a bit more imfo, but a possible new puzzle to solve.
Info
In 1871, a John Upton, born Southwick c1798 was in the Parish Workhouse in Shoreham.
The age is about right to have been your Virtue's husband.
Puzzle
Southwick baptisms also show a Lucy Adam(s?) Upton, daughter of Henry and Maria, baptised in 1852. In any other circumstances, Adam is a name you would normally associate with a male, so I would suspect there was also a family connection between this other family and yours.
Roy G
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Hello Roy
I have traced that census record you refer to and I think that possibly could be the father too, but that line has become confusing too, as at one stage it looks like he is with a wife called Frances (who someone managed to find a marriage record in 1833 for, and they said the additional information said he was a widow). So if that is my John Upton did he get married three times? Becoming even more of a puzzle! Possibly it is the wrong John and I could be following the wrong line.....
Interesting fact about the Lucy Adam Upton, will see if I can trace anything on that line. Thanks.
Gary
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Hi Gary
I will have a look in the Southwick registers - hopefully on Monday
Jan ;)
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Thank you Jan, that would be great.
This is a very puzzling family, so be interesting to find out what the truth is :)
Thanks Regards Gary
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Hi Gary
I can confirm the extracted baptism entry as correct and add a little extra info
22nd Feb 1818 Richard Adams Upton parents John Upton and Virtue abode Southwick Occupation of father Labourer born Jan 15th 1818
I couldn't see any other baptisms for this couple and no burial for Virtue Upton/Martin 1818-1828. No sign of a John Upton to Virtue marriage. The John Upton to Rhoda marriage states he is a bachelor. The baptism for Virtue Martin gives no extra info.
Jan ;)
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In Southwick in 1841 there is this couple, could be the John and Sarah (Adams) who married in 1795
Green Southwick
John Upton 70 Ag Lab
Sarah Upton 55
Both born in county
HO107/1096/8/6 Pg11
Can't see him again till 1861 when he is a Widow
The only other Upton in Southwick in 1841 is
Henry Upton 30 Labourer born in county
From later censuses he appears to be the one who marries a Maria so I'm guessing he is son to John and Sarah and so possible brother to your John. Your possible John is in New Shoreham in 1841
Church Rd New Shoreham
John Upton 45 Labourer
Frances do 50
Benjamin Latimer 25
Louise do 20
Richard Chambers 6
HO107/1096/6/41 Pg22
Wondering if he is also a son of John and Sarah? Will check registers again tomorrow.
None of this is helping with Virtue :D
Jan ;)
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It is interesting that the Henry Upton who married Maria, were the parents of Lucy Upton. Lucy's middle name at her baptism in Southwick, was ADAM. The name Adam is again being repeated, giving a strong reason to suspect some family tie between Henry & John
Roy G
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Thank you so much Jan, really appreciate your time looking this up. Still very puzzling then about Virtue, wonder if her name was misheard or she gave a wrong name ???
I still have to follow the Lucy Adam line, got a bit side tracked by another side of the family, who proved much easier to locate information for once I received the marriage certificate!
Will try and have a look sometime this week.
Thanks for your help. Regards Gary
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Got the following from FreeBMD
Deaths Mar quarter 1843 MARTIN Virtue
Steyning district (Southwick?) ref 7 346
Therefore Virtue should have been on the 1841 census.
Where was Richard on the 1841 census?
Could your Richard have been the illegitimate child of Virtue Martin and John Upton?
Roy G
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I have traced Henry Upton he was born 1808 in Southwick and in 1841 he appears to be lodging with another family (no other Upton's on page only Upperton family). No trace of his baptism record on IGI. He seems to marry Maria Cripps in 1846, so it doesn't look like Lucy's middle name comes from that mother, so think suggestion is right and there has to be some connection to my John, just what??
I have also received a response from another tree member, who is following the Upton family. She claims that John (father of Richard Adams Upton) was born circa 1778 in Brighton and that he has a brother James born circa 1771 in Brighton (married to Hannah), but she has no parents for them. I am unsure where she has obtained this information from though.
Looks like this may end up being another one of my brick walls.
Regards Gary
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Hi Roy
I have looked and looked but can not see any Virtue on the 1841 census. It's a possibility that he is illegitimate I guess, wouldn't be the first in my family.
Why couldn't they all just show on the 1841 census for me and make my life easier LOL.
Regards Gary
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It may be money down the drain, but what if you purchased a copy of Virtue Martin's death cert? That should tell you where she was in 1843, who reported her death and perhaps even a relative's name. From that you could go back to the 1841 census and try to search for her again. It could be that Virtue wasn't quite as virtuous as her name suggests and as it is now clear she never married, she may still have lived with someone and for the sake of Victorian decency, just used their surname unofficially.
Roy G
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Hi Gary
I've searched every which way for Virtue in 1841 but no luck. Like Roy I was wondering if her death cert might help.
I was also pondering whether Virtue was known under a different first name, there seems to be only one possible lady of right age and in right area - living Barrows Hill Henfield is Sarah Martin 45 Housekeeper born in county with Richard Martin 45 Farmer. Shame the 41 doesn't give relationships but given Sarah's occupation I'm thinking they are more likely to be brother and sister than husband and wife. Or it could just be wishful thinking ;D
Will check for them in 51.
Jan ;)
Was right on one count they were brother and sister but Sarah is still alive in 51 >:( :D
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Another to put into the melting pot.
1841 HO107 F1/6 p 7 Steyning
John Martin 73 ag lab
Virtue Martin 70 both born in county.
Presumably the death certificate is for this Virtue?
Andrea
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Thank you for trying Jan, I was going to order the death cert at next payday (just bought four certs last week and paying for holiday in couple of weeks, so bit expensive at moment).
Have just seen updated post by Andrea, that could be her.
Andrea how did you find them? I tried everything... ???
Regards Gary
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I just put Virtue in - no surname.
Andrea
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I just put Virtue in - no surname.
Andrea
So did I but still no sign ???
The vagaries of search engines ::) :D
Sadly looking like this one is Virtue junior's Mum and Dad :(
Jan ;)
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Hi Jan, I did the same thing and didn't come up with anything, but Andrea has advised me she found her through Find My Past which have better transcriptions sometimes.
I am so confused now as to who is who I will have to draw up another seperate tree of all these relations we think may connect somehow to try and keep track and hopefully one day solve this mystery.
Regards Gary
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Hi Gary
Just a few more bits and pieces which may connect someday :D
I had a look for baptisms after 1795 for children of a John and Sarah - I couldn't see any only children of a Thomas and Sarah, whether this is the same couple and John was known as Thomas I really don't know.
John son of Thomas and Sarah Upton baptised 18th Nov 1798 could be your John. No sign of Henry.
Found these burials which could be relevant
Sarah Upton of Southwick age 54 buried 9th Jan 1829
John Upton of Southwick age 83 buried Sep 1852
Also checked baptism of Virtue Martin's brother
Richard son of John Martin Smuggler and Virtue his wife was baptised 26th Oct 1800
Interesting occupation!
Jan ;)
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Thank you so much Jan, didn't expect you to go to this much bother for me :)
I will defnitely make up a small miscellaneous tree and add on all this extra information, maybe one day I will get all the bits to piece it together (sadly I can trace no one else at the moment researching the Upton family).
What an interesting occupation!! That has got my curiousity heightened!!
Thanks Gary
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No bother - this family have sparked my interest ;D
I'm making up all sorts of stories - maybe John and Virtue didn't marry because John's family wouldn't give permission for him to marry into a smuggler's family? or maybe they went elsewhere and married in secret? who knows ;D And in any case whatever happened to Virtue?? No marriage, no burial ???
Jan ;)
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Okay now have some additional information if anyone can fathom this or has any suggestions, please feel free...................
The person who I contacted with Richard Adams Upton in her tree and had a brother to John Upton (father of said Richard) of James Upton, has come back to me. And she advised the following which I also noticed this, but being silly & confused thought she lived in Norfolk, so can't be aunt and dismissed it.
On the 1861 census Richard Upton is living with his family in Brighton and their is an Aunt called Hannah Upton born in Norfolk living with them.
She traced Hannah Upton back on the 1851 census and sure enough she is living with her husband James Upton born 1771 in Brighton, Sussex. She is widowed in 1861.
Now I have located this marriage certificate on Ancestry which could possibly be them (or is it me clutching at straws :-\):
29 March 1839 Brighton, Sussex James Upton father John Upton & Hannah Websdale father Mark Websdale
So now this possibly could be the brother to my John Upton, so what if my John Upton was born in Brighton and not Southwick as he claims, would it be possible then the marriage would be located somewhere in Brighton, or am I again just trying to clutch at straws? :-\.
What does anyone else think? Does this James look like he is brother to my John? Still no closer in some ways though........
Gary
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As you say, there are so many clutched straws and strands, that you now really need to go back to basics and assemble with supporting evidence,
[1] what you know for certain,
[2] what you strongly suspect
[3] what might be probable
[4] and strands that may give further leads
Roy G
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Hi Gary
Hannah looks like a very important lead even if she turns out not to be related in the way you describe.
What Roy suggests would seem to be your next best step - you've got loads of info now but it does need sorting. Then maybe putting on aside for a while? Particularly the mysterious Virtue! I've often found if you leave things alone something will pop up when you least expect :D
Good luck with your continuing research. If you need anything more looking up in West Sussex just shout.
Jan ;)
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Thank you Roy, you are exactly right and that's what I will go off and do now, so then I now what leads I have followed and not followed through etc, and then hopefully at some point it may merge together if I can find other documents.
Jan, yes you are right my mind has been completely blown by this family, I will take Roy's suggestion and put it all together, then leave it alone for a while. LOL I have another side of the family to research in Sussex, so I may call on your services for a look up in the registers if okay.
Just one more thing before I go that I have just found. Roy mentioned at the begining that there was a girl born to Virtue Adams & John Martin called Virtue Martin (baptised in Southwick) and that the only sibling he could find was a Richard Martin baptised in 1800 (who there were too many to confirm which was possibly him), well I have found a tree on Ancestry which has the same parents John & Virtue and that they had a daughter Martha Martin who married a John Upton in 1832 in Patcham, Sussex. This John was born 1808 in Pyecombe. I will contact this tree member and see if they have any additional information about sibling's, I don't think it's connected to my family but worth enquiring. Just very coincidental that they have Virtue & Adams & Upton which are all key names in my tree!
Thank you both again for all your help, it's good to have someone else to bounce off suggestions and idea's and it's helped me a great deal.
Regards Gary
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Let us know if anything comes of your enquiries.
Jan ;)
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Hi all those who got involved. I reviewed what had been discussed over the last few weeks and tried to make some sense out of it. This is what I came up with
Roy G
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RICHARD ADAMS UPTON
The movements of Richard Adams Upton are known from 1841 (when he was a servant) to his marriage in 1845 and thereafter.
None of the censuses were thought to show him living with other relatives.
It has now been verified that he was born on January 15th 1818 in Southwick, Sussex and baptised there on 22/02/1818. The records add that his parents were John Upton (a labourer) & Virtue. His father’s name and occupation (John Upton a labourer) is repeated on Richard’s marriage certificate.
PARENTS
Father John Upton
The only known John Upton of Southwick of about the right age to be Richard’s father married a Rhoda Sturt of New Shoreham in 1828. The record of that marriage says John Upton was a bachelor so his was not that John’s second marriage.
So was Richard the illegitimate son of John & Virtue, and if so, are there any Bastardy records for Southwick?
Another, or the same John Upton of Southwick is thought to have married a Frances in 1833. Was this John a widower and if so, was there a burial record of his Rhoda Upton between 1828-1833?
In 1871, a John Upton, born Southwick c1798 was in the Parish Workhouse in Shoreham. He was of about the right to have been Virtue's lover and then Rhoda’s and later Frances’ husband, but was he?
Another suggestion that John was born circa 1778 in Brighton has so far been dismissed because he would have been some 20 years adrift from Virtue’s probable age. Similarly, resulting information that he had a brother James born circa 1771 in Brighton (married to a Hannah) also has been put on hold, but this couple does reappear in someone else’s research. (See Supplementary notes)
It is thought that the John Upton, son of Thomas and Sarah Upton baptised Southwick 18th Nov 1798 was probably him. So the following Southwick burials may also be important.
Sarah Upton of Southwick age 54 buried 9th Jan 1829
John Upton of Southwick age 83 buried Sep 1852
Southwick baptisms also show a Lucy Adam(s?) Upton, daughter of Henry and Maria, baptised there in 1852. So we also have to consider whether the John above had a brother or cousin Henry.
The 1841 census of Brighton shows a Henry Upton born in Southwick c1808 who appears to be lodging with an unrelated family. This Henry married Maria Cripps in Brighton on 24 Nov 1846.
Supplementary notes
A person was found who also had Richard Adams Upton in her tree and recorded that John Upton (father of Richard) had a brother James Upton, adding there was a Norfolk connection. She said the 1861 census showed Richard Upton with his family in Brighton with a widowed Aunt called Hannah Upton, born in Norfolk living with them. The 1851 census shows the same Hannah Upton (nee Websdale) living with her husband James Upton who the census stated had been born c1771 in Brighton. Hannah Websdale & James Upton married on 29 March 1839 in Brighton, the groom’s father was given as a John Upton.
Virtue and her possible parents.
There seem to have been two females in Southwick called Virtue.
In October 1796, a Virtue Adams married a John Martin of Southwick who then produced a daughter Virtue Martin who was baptised in Southwick in Sept 1798.
Note This couple also had a son called Richard Martin,
Richard, who is recorded as the son of John Martin Smuggler and Virtue his wife, was baptised in Southwick on 26th Oct 1800
Unfortunately, there are too many Richard Martins on the censuses to be sure which Richard he was in later years.
The 1841 Southwick census (ref HO107 F1/6 p 7 Steyning) shows a John Martin aged 73 ag lab and Virtue Martin age 70 living together.
So a death entry found on FreeBMD (Mar quarter 1843 MARTIN Virtue, Steyning district (Southwick?) ref 7 346) probably refers to the elder of the two Virtue Martins, (nee Adams).
There are no other references to Virtue Martin junior, so was she Richard’s mother and if so, what happened to her?
Suggestions range from her dying elsewhere, marrying another first name, or joining the thousands that went voluntarily or forcibly to Australia or Canada.
Supplementary notes
Ancestry shows that A John & Virtue Martin may also have had a daughter Martha Martin who married a John Upton in 1832 in Patcham, Sussex. This John Upton was born c1808 in Pyecombe, and Patcham, like Southwick, is known to have had smuggling connections
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Gary
If you do deciide to look at the Martins in greater detail, I think you will have your work cut out for their movements are rather complex.
John Martin & Virtue Adams, seem to have left Southwick after the birth of their son Richard and relocated jointly to the parishes of Ringmer in East Sussex and Patcham in West. The baptisms of their children show what I mean.
Virtue Martin bapt Southwick Sept 1798
Richard Adams Martin bapt Southwick 26 Oct 1800
The couple then moved to Patcham/Ringmer and had the following other children.
Sarah bapt 18 Jan 1803 Patcham
Bapt 16 Jan 1803 Ringmer
William Bapt 12 May 1805 Patcham
Bapt 12 May 1804 Ringmer
Hester/Esther bapt 13 Feb 1807 Patcham Married John Dodd 1829
Bapt 15 Feb 1807 Ringmer
Jane bapt 26 Feb 1809 Patcham
Bapt 7 Mar 1808 Ringmer
Martha bapt 9 June 1811 Patcham Married John Upton 1832
Bapt 9 July 1811 Ringmer
Mary bapt 20 Feb 1814 Patcham
Born 8 Dec 1813 bapt 20 Feb 1814 Ringmer
Mark William Martin born 15 June 1816 bapt 10 Aug 1816 Patcham
born 15 June 1816 bapt 10 Aug 1816 Ringmer
(father of Mark recorded in both parishes as William?)
All the above were baptised with parents John Martin & Virtue Adams. It is as though the marriage in Southwick had not been recognised.
If you feel these to be your Richard's mother's parents, you may have to start looking in two parishes to try to find out what happened to their daughter who was also called Virtue.
All I can say is that I dont envy you the task for this couple really moved about a bit, probably with the sole aim of thwarting family historians.
Roy G
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Well Roy what can I say?? I have been putting off trying to piece together the pieces of information I had on this family, as it all looked too daunting (thought would attack over the weekend, when I can spread out over the kitchen table). But you have been a wonderful person and collated all the information together for me...........BIG BIG THANK YOU!! ;D
If my Virtue is related to the Martin family in someway it looks like you could be right and this will be a big challenge to prove, or disprove. It looks like I may need to spend a few months in the records office at this rate LOL.
I will have to re-read over what you have written and then decide the best course of action, but THANK YOU again for your great help.
Regards Gary
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Wow Roy you've been busy - how strange baptising each child twice in two parishes ???
I notice the Ringmer entries are submitted entries on the IGI but as they have exact dates may well be true - would need checking out at the ESRO
I can check the Patcham registers for any extra info when I next go to the WSRO - let me know Gary if you want me to.
Jan ;)
Also noticed submitted baptism entries for Kingston by Sea for Virtue, Sarah, Thomas and Richard Adams children of Richard Adams and Hannah Randal. It would seem likely that this is the Virtue who marries John Martin and her sister Sarah may well be the one who married John Upton in Portslade? I can also check the Kingston by Sea registers - again let me know.
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Hello Jan & Roy
I have had contact back from the persons with the Martin's in their tree and sadly neither of them know anything about or have researched Virtue or Richard Martin. They both have the mother Virtue Martin nee Adams as the one who died in 1845 in Patcham and her husband John died 1845 in Patcham.
Thank you Jan that would be very kind of you to look up those details if you don't mind.
I suspect knowing my luck there will be no more information on the registers :-\
Very curious about the baptisms in two areas. If only we could work out where Virtue died or when then that would probably help greatly. Argh they are frustrating me again...... will go see if there is anything else I can trace on the internet.
Regards Gary
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Hi Gary
Will check out Patcham and Kingston by Sea for you sometime in November.
Happy hunting
Jan ;)
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Although it is not an extracted record, Familysearch has a Virtue Martin marrying a William Morris in Headley,Surrey 18.06.1820. Have you ruled her out?
She is probably nothing to do with your family, but it may be worth checking out.
Lesley
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Thank you Jan appreciate it. :)
Thank you Lesley, have looked at that record and it says she is born in Dorking. Have traced census records for possible William Morris and he appears to be widowed and from Dorking. Will keep it in mind and try to trace the original records, but looks doubtful she is mine.
Interesting story on Wikpedia about a John Upton of Patchworth but nothing else found sadly.
Gary
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Not specifically connected with your ancestry, but still a good read, is the life story of James Rooke of Southwick (1800 - 1890). He tells of a life spent working the fields, dodging the naval press gangs, village life and how the agricultural lands owned by some wealthy farmers stretched from the coast to way inland.
He also records the change from being a rural ag lab working the fields to being a bricklayer building Shoreham Power Station. His descendents migrated to Brighton where they became monumental masons, whilst his great uncle (ironically with the same name) was a Highwayman from Shoreham, hanged and gibbeted at Goldstone bottom.
(Tennysons Rispah records that hanging too)
Roy G
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Hi
I was unable to check the Patcham registers as it is East Sussex - I got confused with Patching. Did check the submitted Kingston by Sea Records which are as follows
Richard Adams baptised 25 Aug 1765 son of Richard Adams and Hannah his wife
Thos Adams baptised 26 Jan 1768 son of Richard Adams and |Hannah his wife
Virtue Adams baptised 11 Oct 1771 daur of Richard Adams and Hannah his wife
Sarah Adams baptised 9 Mar 1775 daur of Richard Adams and Hannah his wife
I was unable to check for a burial for Rhoda Upton 1828-33 in Southwick as the relevant fiche was missing - will do another time.
Jan ;)
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Thank you so much for your time and efforts Jan much appreciated. I will try to get the records at East Sussex looked up and see then if anything ties together.
Regards Gary
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Hi
Couldn't see a burial for Rhoda Upton nor a Southwick marriage to a Frances to John Upton. Did do a double check on the John/Rhoda marriage
John Upton batchelor of this parish to Rhoda Sturt spinster of New Shoreham on 1 Nov 1828 both parties signed. Witnesses James Upton and Elizabeth Allen both made their mark
Is this the James born Brighton and possibly brother to your John? If so it looks like he would need to be a widow when he married Hannah in Brighton as
James Upton married Elizabeth Upperton in Southwick 5 Dec 1826 witnessed by a Samuel Upton - another brother?
Just seen the Brighton marriage was in 1839 when James would have been 78 - possible but not very likely?
Jan ;)
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Thank you for looking Jan. Looks like we are no further ahead then before, just more mysteries. I will have to sit down and go through all this again and see if there are any other possible avenue's, I am sure I saw a tree which had a James & Elizabeth Upperton on it and when I contacted them it turned out to be a completely different family, will have to go check my contacts.
If I ordered the marriage cert for James to Hannah would that really bring us any more forwards?
Hhmm need to review all this I think.
Thanks again for your help. Regards Gary