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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Dumfriesshire => Topic started by: Maggie. on Thursday 25 September 08 00:16 BST (UK)
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Can anybody tell me whether Tinwald Mill is still standing? My gt. x 3 grandfather was farmer and miller there until his death in 1850.
Maggie
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Hi Maggie
I've looked at quite a few maps and checked the postcodes and can't find a current reference. Hopefully, someone local to the area might know more.
I did find a ref to it on G*gle but then it transferred me to a pay to view map site :(
I'll be going over in the next few months and will certainly have a mosey around for you and, if it's there, I can take some photos.
Regards
Gadget
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Hi Gadget,
Thanks for looking so quickly and that's a very kind offer re. photos. I live in hope that I might get up there myself before too long :D
Regards,
Maggie
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Hi Maggie,
I was living by, and driving through there, not so long ago and even went to the church grounds. I don't recall seeing anything looking like a mill.
You may want to get in touch with these folk. I'm sure they'd know.
Tinwald Parks Farm, Tinwald, Dumfries, DG1 4PN
Tel: 0870 850 0879
E-mail: info@gallowayfalconry.co.uk
Web: www.gallowayfalconry.co.uk
J.
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Hi Jamjar,
Many thanks for this. I have just sent them an email to see if they can help. From what I have gleaned in the 1841 census, there were a few other households in the area, inluding one referred to as Tinwald Mill Dwelling House.
I note your ggg-grandmother was Grace Morrison-Jardine. My ggg-grandmother was called Helen Jardine before marriage and she lived at this mill at least until 1850.
Maggie
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Umm, I don't have any Helens in my line, but I do have weavers and shoemakers.
Grace's parents were Thomas and Janet, of St Mungo.
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Mine are all Tinwald and Mouswald. Where's St. Mungo? I've not researched the Jardines yet - Helen married into my Nicholsons in early 1800s.
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It's in Dumfries, too.
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Hi Maggie :)
This map might help:
http://www.scotlandsfamily.com/parish-map-dumfries.htm
St Mungo is a parish to the east of Dumfries, situated beween Dalton and Hoddam (W-E) and Cummertrees and Dryfesdale (S-N)
Regards
Gadget
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Hi Gadget,
Thanks for the map - most useful to a Dumfries novice like me ;). Although I do know Hoddom - OH was almost involved in a work project based at the castle there and I had a trip up there with him once. Most impressive castle. It was many years ago, before I realised I had family interests in that area :-\ :-\
Regards,
Maggie
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Hi Maggie,
You may want to get in touch with these folk. I'm sure they'd know.
Tinwald Parks Farm, Tinwald, Dumfries, DG1 4PN
Hi Jamjar,
I've had a lovely reply back from thes people. They are fairly new to the area but are familiar with the Tinwald estate. They have no recollection of every seeing a mill although they say there are plenty of places that could have housed such a building. However they have given me contact details of the current owner of Timwald House who may be able to help.
Thanks for your help.
Maggie
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You're most welcome,
Maggie
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Hi Maggie
A thought ~
Have you looked at the adjacent families on the 1841. It might help locate the Mill if there are addresses showing :)
Also some useful old maps:
http://www.nls.uk/maps/index.html
I'll have a look later if the rain continues ::)
Connection went down - I'd forgotten what living in rural North of Scotland is like!
Gadget
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Hi Gadget,
Yes - and its quite interesting. There was a little community of about 8 households and one of the surnames I think married into my lot prior to 1841. Amongst the neighbours, there is another family of Nicholsons living at Tinwald Mill Dwelling House but I haven't managed to tie them in yet.
Thanks for the maps, I shall have a browse later - I love maps :D :D.
Regards,
Maggie
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Hi Maggie
I've been looking at FreeCen 1841 - Dumfries.
If the census taker did the houses in order then the mill was next to Tinwald Parks cottage. That's were the falconry place is now.
Also you will find that there was another large family of Nicholson living in Tinwald.
The residence is:Cotland
John
Mary
Thomas
Elizabeth
Ann
Jean
Agnes
Jannet
Margaret
Jamjar
Just looked at the 1851 census and it supports the idea that the mill was next to Parks. Folk in residence at Parks, were Jardine. :)
Looks like the other side of the mill was the manse.
Is this your Helen, at Ringheads - Thorthorwald - in '51?
She's a widow and a farmer of 170 acres, employing 10 labourers
Age is down as 70
She was born at Holywood Dms
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Hi Jamjar,
Thanks so much for your efforts on my behalf, it really is appreciated. It is interesting that it would seem that the milll could be on the site of the present day Falconry.
I have noticed the large family of Nicholsons living at Cotland - my bet is that they are connected but I don't know how yet and my ancestor who lived at the mill does not appear to have any brothers called John.
Also interesting is the Jardine family living at Parks in 1851 - I didn't know that :D.
Yes - I have already found the possible Helen farming Totherwald in 1851 but I am not sure it is her, although from memory the only other Helen thrown up in a census hunt doesn't fit the bill. The husband of my Helen, who was farmer and miller at the mill, died in 1850 and according to his Will he died Intestate, and ''the value of Estate is of the value of one hundred pounds Sterling and under the value of two hundred pounds Sterling''. I think I am correct that in today's terms this is around £8,000. The Will is dated 1853 - 2.5 years after his death. I am not entirely convinced that it is likely that my Helen could within one year of the death of her husband be running a large farm, ......although....... also in the household is Jane Nicholson aged 42, and Helen and her husband Christopher the miller did have a daughter called Jane born 1807 - 2 years earlier than the Jane in the census - and who was baptised in Tinwald (the Jane in the census is born in Mouswald) :-\ :-\
Maggie
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I think it is appropriate to give a bit of an update as I have been ankle deep in my Scottish rellies all day and with some success. Because of Gadget’s own Scottish ancestors I’ve had some good guidance from her – thanks Gadget ;).
Jamjar – it is doubtful that the Righeads, Totherwald Helen Nicholson with the large farm that you found in the 1851 census can be my Helen as the 1841 census for Righeads shows this Helen with (presumably) her husband James, and I know that in 1841 my Helen Nicholson was living at Tinwald Mill with her husband Christopher.
Also we now have a copy of my Helen Nicholson’s death registry entry. She died on 30th October 1860 at Cowshaw Cottage, Tinwald, aged 75 years. Her parents were David Jardine and Jane Jardine maiden name Dinwoodie. I have not been able to find Helen in the 1851 census.
Maggie
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Hi Maggie
I'm about to go through the 558 females resident in Tinwald on the 1851 ::)
It's mad I am ;D
Gadget
added - :( nothing remotely like her. I also had a quick look in England in case she was visiting her son but nothing that stands out :(
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It's good to see you making progress.
Who was the informant on Helen's death cert?
On the '51 census, there is a John at Cowshaw.
Jamjar
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Hi Jamjar :)
It was a William Hall, grandson in law (not present)
Gadget
added -she must be there in the 1851 somewhere - relatives in another parish but nothing yet. There's a Helen in Caerlaverrock, sister but it's not her :( I've used Nellie/Ellen - one and two ls. Nicholson variations and Jardine :-\
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Hi Jamjar - the informant is William Hall, grandson in law, not present.
Gadget - you are a gem ;D......... are you not sick of Nicholsons yet ::) ::)
Maggie - disappearing under lumps of paper
(oops - snap ;D)
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;D ;D ;D
Maggie - I try to look through every family in Dumfries and Kirkcudbright and Wigtown in case I find my missing link :)
I thought you'd gone to bed!
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;D ;D ;D
I thought you'd gone to bed!
No chance with this lot rattling around in my brain ;D
Just been trying to find other son Benjamin in case mum was with him in '51 - no joy. There's one in Birkenhead, England with children of the right names but he is Benjamin C. and my Benjamin wasn't baptised with a middle name. No mother Helen living with him anyway.
That Caelaverock Helen - I pondered her for a bit but she must be a spinster.
added later - Helen is 'Nelly' in some records
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The Caerlaverock one is down as a sister to a ? Nicholson - listed as a 'spinner'. I've not checked the original image - it might be worth you having a look if you think it might just be her - is it worth 6 units :-\
If she was the one with father David Jardine on the IGI, she should be b.Dumfries
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Nope - not the one
This one is an unmarried sister of Robert Nicholson both born in Ruthwell
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Did you notice the Hall family living at the mill on the '51 census?
Shouldn't you be sleeping? :(
Jamjar
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Hi Jamjar,
Yes I should be sleeping :-\
Will check out the Hall family tomorrow - I'm beyond it now.
Thanks for your interest :D
Maggie
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Did you notice the Hall family living at the mill on the '51 census?
Jamjar
Yes I have found them Jamjar, - Robert Hall and family and I am trying to sort out how they fit in with William Hall who was the informant on Helen's death cert. as no William is listed with them. The wife is Jane but her place of birth is Caelaverock so it is unlikely she is Jane, daughter of Christopher and Helen and who was born in Bar, Tinwald. The age is out by 2 years as well.
Maggie
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Is it worth trying to find marriages of any William Halls?
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Just in the middle of trying that but no joy yet :-\
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On the 1861, there are two possibles for him in Dumfriesshire that I can see:
Langholm, a carter, aged 50 with wife Jane (aged 35, b. Canonbie)
Half Morton, aged 61, gamekeeper. Looks like he's a widower :-\
As he was 'not present' at the death he might be anywhere - Kirkcudbrightshire, Lake District, Yorkshire, Lancashire, etc. :(
Gadget
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Probably unlikely, but my "not usually very accurate" transcription of the census has the following
Watchhill Annan Dumfries
Helen Aitchison head 65 seamstress born Annan
Mary do sister 60 seamstress (assistant)
James Dinwoodie lodger 2 born England
The name Dinwoodie caught my eye
could Aitchison = Nicholson? Annan is 15 miles from Tinwald
Trish
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I am pretty sure that Helen was born in Tinwald, although it is interesting that there is a Dinwoodie lodging. Is sister Mary unmarried? Helen's death info. (9 yrs later) describes her as 'Farmer's Widow' not seamstress.
Thanks for your help in this.
Maggie
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Hi Maggie
Unfortunately the transcript I have doesn't give the marital status - you would need SP or freecen perhaps. 2 year old "lodgers" are usually a relative of some description, but it may well be an Aitchison and irrelevant to your family.
Apologies if you have this already - there are siblings to your Helen on the IGI
Janet 1777 and Margaret 1774 mother given as Jean Dinwiddie
baptism Lochmaben, Dumfries
This one is 5 miles from Tinwald
Trish
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Hi Maggie and Trish
The Dumfries 1851 index:
http://www.dumgal.gov.uk/historicalindexes/census.aspx
has the James Dinwoodie as a 'lodger in the house of Helen Aitcheson'
The only Helen Jardine that we've found so far on the IGI was b. Dumfries and father David. They probably moved for some reason.*
*Modified - it was on SP - bpt 25 Oct 1783, Dumfries
Gadget
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Hi Maggie
I hope this will post - RC seems to be on a go slow again :-\
I've just been looking at the 1851 images.
The tinwald mill entry would appear to have the head of household mising/away. It reads
Mary Ann Nicholson, daughter, unm, 41, ag Labourer, b. Tinwald
Janet, daughter, unm, 18, house servant, b. Tinwald.
The Mill apears to be next to the Manse.
Also Cowshaws - there appear to be three addresses: North Cowshaw, South Cowshaw and Cowshaw Cottage.
Cowhaw cottage was occupied by a John Dobie, an unmarried road labourer, aged 28 and Georgina Hogg, an unmarried servant, aged 27.
Gadget
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Tried to post this earlier but slow/stopped Roots and line keeps dropping because of heavy showers in the Highlands:
From SP - Marriage/Banns Lochmaben 5 June 1771
David Jardine and Mary Dinwiddie
Gadget
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Hi Trish,
Thanks for the sibling info. I know the father is David Jardine but my ancient notes have the mother as Mary Dinwiddie but this is not my research so I must check :D
Hi Gadget,
Mary Ann Nicholson is at the Mill in '41 as well, with Jean Nicholson aged 30 and Jannet Nicholson aged 8. I don't know who she is yet. Thanks for the Banns info.
I will now attempt to post a map of the Tinwald Estate dated 1856-56, which covers the time Christopher and Helen were living here - Roots is so slow right now it could take the rest of the day to load ;D >:(
I hope it is clear enough to show that there is a Mill Dam, Mill Head and a sluice, also a collection of buildings which I assume is where the mill was situated. These buildings still show on a present day map and I understand from Jamjar that these buildings are now part of the present day Falconry Centre.
Maggie
(map courtesy of Landmark Information Group)
(added latter - I have corrected my typo to Dinwiddie)
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Hi Maggie,
A small correction here. I actually said that the mill would have been next to the falconry centre, based on the census, if it was taken in order. :)
Dinwoodie and Dinwiddie will be one and the same.
Jamjar
RC seems to be fixed.
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Hi Jamjar,
Thanks for the correction - of course you said it was next to the falconry - my error and I should have read back through the thread shouldn't I :-\ :-\ .
I have corrected my Dinwiddie typo (my notes do say Mary Dinwiddie) - I saw my mistake but couldn't get back into RC yesterday to fix it :( :(
I have a lot to work on now as regards my Nicholsons in Scotland - no doubt I will have further queries but perhaps not in this thread, which was originally concerning whether or not the mill is still standing, therefore I shall lock it.
Many thanks to everyone who has helped me - I never expected the thread to take the direction it did - what a bonus :D :D.
Regards,
Maggie
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Hi.
I was born and raised in Tinwald, and as well as the mill by Tinwald House, can tell you there was a second mill on Cotland Road. Only two houses away from my address, it has long since been converted into a house (although outbuildings remain as wood-workshops).
I wonder if anyone might know much about a library in Tinwald - perhaps a private collection in the mid-1850s? It seems very far-fetched to me, but a fellow from PA USA came asking one day in spring and we had the maps out looking, but to no avail. I in fact was heading to PA only a couple of weeks later to work at a Summer Camp and amongst the many great friends I made was the family of the General Manager of the site. It turned out that his wife's ancestors had lived around and worked on Tinwald Parks Farm in the 1740s! (she was a keen geneaologist herself) Couldn't believe it - perhaps 20 to 40 people living here back then and I went half way around the world to know their descendants. It's enough to affirm one's faith!
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Hi EddyEatWorld,
First of all I must apologise for my delay in replying but I have only found your reply today by accident as the notification system failed to tell me of your post.
How interesting that you know Tinwald so well. I made an assumption (perhaps incorrectly) that the mill where my ancestor lived was positioned by Tinwald House, as on the map I posted earlier here, given that there was a mill dam, sluice, well etc. marked on the map. However it is interesting that you mention a second mill. I have been in contact with the Ewart Library in Dumfries and they sent me a better map dated 1861, that shows Tinwald Mill clearly marked as being much nearer Tinwald village, on Low Road just before it meets another road marked Kirk Brae on the map.
At the end of October last year I made a brief visit to Tinwald with my husband to see what we could find. I think we correctly identified the site of the mill, where a modern bungalow now stands called Mill Burn.......... is this correct? We were given some help in this by local residents, also a contact address of a local historian.
We also visited the churchyard of Tinwald and found a headstone erected to the memory of my gt.x3 grandfather Christopher Nicholson, Tenant of Tinwald Mill, his wife Helen Jardine and son Benjamin.
Thank you so much for making contact, and again I am sorry for this late response.
Maggie :)
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Hi!
You're right, that was the mill - the house I was blabbing on about was in fact the carpenter's. It's all wood anyway! That's great you've tracked everything down. If there's ever anything else you're interested in give me a shout!
Eddy
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Hi Eddy,
So glad you've replied - I was hoping you hadn't disappeared for ever due to my lack of response :o
And welcome to RootsChat :)
Glad we found the correct place for the mill as we took lots of photos and its a long way to go back if we had made a mistake. What a lovely part of Scotland - we had a great time exploring as my family had farms in Mouswald, Cleughbrae and Howthatt as well as Tinwald.
I shall certainly be in touch if and when I need to know more :D.
Maggie
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Hi Jamjar,
Many thanks for this. I have just sent them an email to see if they can help. From what I have gleaned in the 1841 census, there were a few other households in the area, inluding one referred to as Tinwald Mill Dwelling House.
I note your ggg-grandmother was Grace Morrison-Jardine. My ggg-grandmother was called Helen Jardine before marriage and she lived at this mill at least until 1850.
Maggie
Hi there everyone... interesting thread.. Im currently searching the Jardines too, I have a Helen Jardine, mine is Lady Helen Jardine, daughter of Sir William Jardine, 7th baronet of applegarth ... Im trying to find out more about her and wondered... maybe?.... Im also trying to find images of the buildings etc on the Jardine estate? such as the hall and lodge (I already have them of Spedlins tower)...
anyone? anything?
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Hi truebritmega,
That's interesting and thanks for posting. It's some time since I looked at my Nicholson/Jardines so I need to refresh my memory by looking at my files. I know the parents of my Helen Jardine were David Jardine and Jane Dinwiddie, who were both deceased by 1860. I don't think I have any more info. on the Jardines as yet but I will check over the weekend when I should have a bit more time.
Am I correct in thinking Applegarth is Lochmaben ?
Maggie
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well, Im not sure if its clased as Lochmaben now, some places online class it as Lockerbie, its also listed as applegarthtown...
From what I cans ee, the Jardines also owned Millhousebridge and Templand as part of there clan, land? (sorry I dont know the terminology) But My helens father, was one of the Baronetcy of Nova Scotia, passed down to him
If there are pictures of him, and members of his family further back too... surely I should be able to find a photo of my Helen? lol
And with Jardine Hall Estate being as big as it appears to be... surely there would be more photos of it, and its lodges etc?
Jardine Hall, apparently later became Holt School... this is then classed as Lockerbie from the results I have been coming across....
Applegarth(or girth) church even has Jardine vaults, and a "Jardine Aisle" within the church
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Hi, did you manage to locate the Mill? I know where it was.
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https://maps.nls.uk/view/74945998 (https://maps.nls.uk/view/74945998)
just at the end of Low Road near to the Manse it was behind what is now Mill Burn Cottage. Not visible from the road.
copy and paste into google maps
55.116635, -3.566639
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Am I correct in thinking Applegarth is Lochmaben ?
Maggie
Applegarth is just North of Lockerbie, Lochmaben is just south of Lockerbie
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Historically, and for research purposes, Applegarth is a parish in its own right. Lochmaben is a separate parish and I believe that Lockerbie is in the parish of Dryfesdale.
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regarding tinwald mill a number of years ago on rootschat a gentleman from arizona made a posting looking for a gravestone at tinwald church i visit it regulary from glasgow as have family burried there, i had trouble finding the stone for the gentleman but on another visit found it it was a slab stone and had been covered over the years i sent the info from it to him his ancestor was carpenter at tinwald mill. he came over from arizona and i met up with him in dumfries then on to tinwald, we visited the grave stones then on to a meet a gentleman who had restored a building on the mill site to a house. much info was exchanged maps and photos, the gentleman when doing the work to the building also uncovered the old mill wheel when digging out the burn and installing hard standing area for car paking.the gentleman from arizona following day went on to langholm to meet members of clan armstrong and have tour of border reviers trail he also on another day had visit to carlisle, the clan armstrong asked him if he would like to write an article of his visit . this was published in the milnholm cross magazine of the clan armstrong autumn 2010 (have copy) the tinwalds mill is up further from the manse near the very large old oak tree where the road turns off the gent from arizona ancestors were at the mill 1723-1800.
harrywrag
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the tinwalds mill is up further from the manse near the very large old oak tree where the road turns off
harrywrag
Hi Harry, it's on Low Road... I live next door :-)
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There are several photos of Jardine Hall on the RCAHMS Canmore site. Given the extent of the surrounding estate photos of other parts may have their own site entries. I had a look for both Tinwald Mills as well but although i could see photos of the farmhouse I couldn't locate those of the mill building next to Low Road
https://canmore.org.uk/site/256045/jardine-hall (https://canmore.org.uk/site/256045/jardine-hall)
Searching Canmore is sometimes easier by site than by keyword, so if looking for other sites in the vicinity use the open in a larger map option, zoom out a little then from the right hand menu select the top option and then terrestrial (this shows the sites as coloured squares on the map) , tap or click on a square and a pop up window provides a brief description and a link to the site which may have further details and images.
Hope this helps
S_L
well, Im not sure if its clased as Lochmaben now, some places online class it as Lockerbie, its also listed as applegarthtown...
From what I cans ee, the Jardines also owned Millhousebridge and Templand as part of there clan, land? (sorry I dont know the terminology) But My helens father, was one of the Baronetcy of Nova Scotia, passed down to him
If there are pictures of him, and members of his family further back too... surely I should be able to find a photo of my Helen? lol
And with Jardine Hall Estate being as big as it appears to be... surely there would be more photos of it, and its lodges etc?
Jardine Hall, apparently later became Holt School... this is then classed as Lockerbie from the results I have been coming across....
Applegarth(or girth) church even has Jardine vaults, and a "Jardine Aisle" within the church
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I couldn't locate those of the mill building next to Low Road
https://canmore.org.uk/site/256045/jardine-hall (https://canmore.org.uk/site/256045/jardine-hall)
Searching Canmore is sometimes easier by site than by keyword, so if looking for other sites in the vicinity use the open in a larger map option, zoom out a little then from the right hand menu select the top option and then terrestrial (this shows the sites as coloured squares on the map) , tap or click on a square and a pop up window provides a brief description and a link to the site which may have further details and images.
Hope this helps
S_L
https://maps.nls.uk/view/74945998
Box ref 762 on this map shows the mill at the Tinwald end of Low Road
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I meant that I couldn't locate photos of it in Canmore, it is on their map and in the NLS maps. There's the possibility that it was photographed by RCAHMS or other departments whose photos are in their collection. For example from the 70s/80s, they are digitised but a lot of those haven't been catalogued and are currently listed as unidentified.
S_L
I couldn't locate those of the mill building next to Low Road
https://canmore.org.uk/site/256045/jardine-hall (https://canmore.org.uk/site/256045/jardine-hall)
Searching Canmore is sometimes easier by site than by keyword, so if looking for other sites in the vicinity use the open in a larger map option, zoom out a little then from the right hand menu select the top option and then terrestrial (this shows the sites as coloured squares on the map) , tap or click on a square and a pop up window provides a brief description and a link to the site which may have further details and images.
Hope this helps
S_L
https://maps.nls.uk/view/74945998
Box ref 762 on this map shows the mill at the Tinwald end of Low Road
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I meant that I couldn't locate photos of it in Canmore, it is on their map and in the NLS maps. There's the possibility that it was photographed by RCAHMS or other departments whose photos are in their collection. For example from the 70s/80s, they are digitised but a lot of those haven't been catalogued and are currently listed as unidentified.
S_L
I couldn't locate those of the mill building next to Low Road
https://canmore.org.uk/site/256045/jardine-hall (https://canmore.org.uk/site/256045/jardine-hall)
Searching Canmore is sometimes easier by site than by keyword, so if looking for other sites in the vicinity use the open in a larger map option, zoom out a little then from the right hand menu select the top option and then terrestrial (this shows the sites as coloured squares on the map) , tap or click on a square and a pop up window provides a brief description and a link to the site which may have further details and images.
Hope this helps
S_L
https://maps.nls.uk/view/74945998
Box ref 762 on this map shows the mill at the Tinwald end of Low Road
I doubt there would be photographs as it was a ruin on the 1855 Ordinance survey map.