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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Antrim => Topic started by: fred111 on Tuesday 23 September 08 20:15 BST (UK)

Title: Calvins in Ballynure
Post by: fred111 on Tuesday 23 September 08 20:15 BST (UK)
Hi
I am trying to find parents and ancestors of  Roger Calvin (c1796) and Hannah Dempsey (c1800).
They were married in 1821.
I have traced my descent through their daughter Hannah, (ch, 10.11.18220)

By the way, can anyone tell me what Ballynure is /was like?

Thanks
Liz
Title: Re: Calvins in Ballynure
Post by: scarletmill on Tuesday 23 September 08 21:25 BST (UK)
Hi Liz,

Sorry but I can't help you with your Calvin saga but I can give you an idea of Ballynure today. The main line (A8) from Larne to Belfast splits Ballynure in 2 literally.
Left side has a garage (diesel 117.9 pence), a church, a few houses and shops and the best butchers shop for miles (Jacksons). A wee village called Straid is a few miles away on this side.
Right side has the main housing estate of 30-40 houses at most. Another church, primary school and the back road into Ballyclare. The village of Ballyeaston is via this side of the road also.

Happy hunting

June
Title: Re: Calvins in Ballynure
Post by: fred111 on Tuesday 23 September 08 21:40 BST (UK)
Thanks, June, it sounds even smaller than the village where I live.

Does 'Bally' have a meaning?

Helen Dempsey married William Linn from Ballymena. Is that far away?

Liz
Title: Re: Calvins in Ballynure
Post by: scarletmill on Tuesday 23 September 08 22:04 BST (UK)
Hi again Liz,

Blink and you'ed be through Ballynure is not an exaggeration. Bally is used in many villages and towns over here, it is a Gaelic word ( Bailena ) meaning Place of.
Ballymena is only about 15 miles from Ballymena via Ballyclare. Ballymena is a main town in Co.Antrim.
Old Arthur I work with is from Ballynure and his generations are all from there so I'll ask him tomorrow

Hopeful
June
Title: Re: Calvins in Ballynure
Post by: scarletmill on Wednesday 24 September 08 18:30 BST (UK)
Sorry Liz,

Arthur couldn't place any Calvin's but if they were there they would most likely be buried in Raloo cemetery - this old graveyard was the common ground for that area. It is hard to access from the road but is still apparently used.

Best of luck

June
Title: Re: Calvins in Ballynure
Post by: TheWhuttle on Tuesday 30 September 08 23:58 BST (UK)
Liz,

Aye, its a grand wee place!

[To be distinguished from its namesakes in Co. Wicklow, Ireland and Manchester County, Jamaica (home to UK TV's cook Ainsley HARRIOTT's slave-keeping/generating ancestors!).]

----

Some sources for informing you what Ballynure was like are:

1) Ballynure: History and Happenings in the village over the past Four Hundred Years.
2004 Ernie SCOTT

[Ref:  http://www.ollar.utvinternet.com/erniebook.htm
If you are visiting the area, simply buy it from the newsagent in the square in Ballyclare, otherwise drop an EMail to the fine folks at ollar {-- a t } utvinternet.com for details on ordering by post (£6 all up in UK). 
A very condensed version can be seen at
http://www.ballynurepresbyterian.org/history/Ballynure_History.pdf ]


2) ORDNANCE SURVEY MEMOIRS OF IRELAND
PARISHES OF COUNTY ANTRIM XII
1832-3, 1835-40
Ballynure and District
Vol. 32

1995 IIS@QU,Belfast & RIA,Dublin
ISBN 0 85389 552  ppb 141 pp

[Order from QUB or from UHF - who have a sale on just now!]


3) Old Families of Carrickfergus and Ballynure
Rutherford & Clark
2003 UHF

[Includes headstone transcriptions for Old Ballynure Cemetery.]


4) Books offering a perspective on the wider area are listed at http://www.ollar.utvinternet.com/books.htm .

----

I had a methodical read of the OSM for each of the parishes of Ballynure and Raloo.
[The latter gave me a really good laugh - the writers obviously did not take a shine to the area - some of the comments are so modern-day not PC.  Much was made of the over-prevalence of whiskey drinking everywhere!]


Ballynure was a mixed agricultural and industrial area.
Raloo mostly agricultural (and 50 years behind the times!).

Linen production had been totally dominant, with nearly everyone involved in it, but was in very serious decline by the 1830s.
[No more Napoleonic War satchels/matresses/capes required ...]

----

No mention of the CALVIN name in either parish.

No DEMPSEY mentioned in Ballynure.

A Robert DEMPSEY owned a farm in Ballygowan townland in Raloo.
[It had an ancient druid's altar called "Cannorth's Walls" on its land.
 This seems to be known as the "Canders Walls" monument nowadays..
 Ref: OSNI Discoverer Series BALLYMENA, LARNE  1:50000  Sheet 9  D359969
 Just off the B100 road, opposite Thorny Hill.]

----

The Ballygowan townland was the "Irish" enclave of the two parishes.
[Though the folks there were reckoned to originate from Scots who came over with the BRUCEs in the 14thC.]

These people were of an RC religious persuasion, attending the chapel down in the valley, about an Irish mile NW of the druid's altar.
[Your DEMPSEYs may have been of this persuasion - but there were only four RC landholders.]

The population of the area was overwhelmingly (90%) Presbyterian, reflecting waves of immigration in the 1590s, 1610s, 1640s & 1690s. 

The DEMPSEY surname originates from Leinster, but was scattered after the Williamite/Jacobite war.  Of the Ulster counties, Co. Antrim hosts a disproportionate number, suggesting that some are corruptions (synonyms) of another name - most likely DEMPSTER, originally a Scottish baronial official.
[ref: The Book of Ulster Surnames, Robert BELL, The Blackstaff Press 1988]

So, your DEMPSEYs might have been of a Protestant persuasion.

----

If so, then they are likely to have married in Ballynure village.

This village hosted the only church (Christ Church) in the CoI prebendary of the three conjoined parishes of Ballynure, Raloo & Templecorran.
[A chapel of ease was built at Glenoe in Raloo only in 1840.]

It also hosted two Pb Meeting houses (Orthodox & Seceder).
[Two parallel MHs were built near Raloo village only in 1838.]

A neat summary of PRONI-available church records is given at: http://www.vyger.fsnet.co.uk/Parish_records/Antrim/Ballyclare_Doagh/Ballynure/ballynure.html
----

You will note from the above URL

(or from

http://applications.proni.gov.uk/geogindx/parishes/par039.htm )
that Ballynure parish includes two townlands, named "Ballymena Little" and "Little Ballymena".  The Ballymena burn runs along the SW side of Ballynure parish, forming part of the boundary with the adjoining parish of Ballylinny.
[Presumably these townlands are adjacent to it.]

Thus your William LINN may hail from nearer-by than Ballymena town (in Kirkinriola townland, Ahoghill parish).
[The OSM say that people seldom chose partners from outside the area.]

----

Emigration (~8 folks per year) was mainly to New York, though some to Quebec.
[Reasons were invites from previous migrants, and lack of success at home.]

Strangely Raloo folks got in to difficulty because many had availed themselves of an offer of perpetual leases offered by the landlord's agent (DOBBS) in 1780.  This made them feel safe, so they let things slip. By contrast, farmers paying rent worked their farms hard and made (small) profits.

Many of the freeholders had to leave (bankrupt), often handing the farms over to people who had been their servants.

-----

You can hunt for some CALVINs in the 18thC Belfast Newsletter Index.
[ http://www.ucs.louisiana.edu/cgi-bin/belfst/QueryForm1.cgi ]

Else further back in Geneva ... www.calvinus.com !

Capt. Jock


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Title: Re: Calvins in Ballynure
Post by: fred111 on Wednesday 01 October 08 00:35 BST (UK)
Thanks, June, 'Old Arthur' sounds a character.

Wow, Capt Jock! Thank you for such a detailed reply.
I will look into all those sites you have given me.

Thank you so much for all your time and effort. it is much appreciated, believe me.

I want to visit Ireland, and see these places for myself!
Liz
Title: Re: Calvins in Ballynure
Post by: fred111 on Wednesday 01 October 08 00:37 BST (UK)
P.S.
I have read that Calvin could originally be a French name.
Does anyone have any thoughts on that?
Liz
Title: Re: Calvins in Ballynure
Post by: TheWhuttle on Wednesday 01 October 08 00:51 BST (UK)
Liz,

If you are visiting, try to make it coincide with one of the historical walks around Ballynure given by one of the members of historical society - ideally Ernie himself!

John CALVIN, the famous reformer, was born at Noyon just north of Paris.
[N.B. He didn't have any male descendants!]

He ended up in Geneva by accident, was thrown out after a few years (for being too strict), and was then begged to return (to restore order). etc. etc. etc.

Revving Jock
Title: Re: Calvins in Ballynure
Post by: fred111 on Thursday 02 October 08 17:46 BST (UK)
I've now had time to go into all the sites you gave me.
Many thanks for your time - in giving me such a lot of information.
I found the History of Ballynure and district fascinating. It seems a great shame that all 'English' people know of History on the other side of the Irish Sea is the Potato Famine, the Battle of the Boyne, and not much more.
It has certainly awakened a curiosity to know more of Irish History.

My deep gratitude once more.

On the name Calvin, the Ancestry free surname site says it is French - Latin and means BALD!

Liz
Title: Re: Calvins in Ballynure
Post by: stevenson on Saturday 04 October 08 16:08 BST (UK)
Hi Liz

The Robert Dempsey "The Whuttle" mentioned in the Raloo, his family were eventually spread out from Belfast to Larne
Carnmoney,Straid,LittleBallymeana,Whitehead,Magheramourne,Bellahill etc etc and Liverpool.

I have no Calvin I am afraid.

I have been told that some Dempsey's are buried at Ballynure and at Raloo but have no head stones, and I have been around both.....in the hope to find one that might have been missed (me grabbing at straws as usual).

Beware...Dempsey's married in Methodist, R.C , C of I and Presbyterian........just to keep us on our toes

Dempsey's would seem to have had a firm link with this area in the early 1800's...so it would be more probable that the Calvin was a newcomer.

Do not give up Liz...keep plodding on and hopefully something will turn up....honest it will

Steve
Title: Re: Calvins in Ballynure
Post by: helenar on Monday 06 October 08 19:58 BST (UK)
Just in case the headstone had crumbled before Steve got there, Gravestone Book of County Antrim, there are no Dempsey or Calvin gravestones in their either.

There is Agnes Dempster d. March 1870 Templecorran graveyard aged 38 she was the daughter of William McKee and Ellen

Helena
Title: Re: Calvins in Ballynure
Post by: snooza on Monday 06 October 08 20:43 BST (UK)
Hi I just saw someone mention Jackson butcher shop. I'm pretty sure that the Jackson are part of my ancestory but i can't find the Barklies- William or James (about 1870's )I have a feeling they were farmers Does anyone know if they are buried at Ballnure
Title: Re: Calvins in Ballynure
Post by: fred111 on Tuesday 07 October 08 22:16 BST (UK)
Thanks to ALL for you information, support and, maybe a bit extra to Steve for his encouragement!
It does sometimes feel as though I'm getting nowhere, but I'm sure that everyone feels that at some time or another.
I thought, when I began, that all my roots were in the NE of England. I felt proud of my ancestors, who were all working people amd who survived what must have been hard times.
Now, I find I have ancestors from lots of different places, and I'm feeling a new pride in the grit and determination which took them to new places to find work and maybe life partners.
Liz
Title: Re: Calvins in Ballynure
Post by: stevenson on Wednesday 08 October 08 17:42 BST (UK)

""Now, I find I have ancestors from lots of different places, and I'm feeling a new pride in the grit and determination which took them to new places to find work and maybe life partners""

What wonderful words........hear hear

I found a Dempsey with Thomas Stevenson of Carickfergus in Thomasland (now Straid area) in 1690.....I know a good 100 years before where you are looking,,,,but people turn up in strange places all the time.

If the Dempsey's staid then or went back to Scotland I do not know.

A wild thought...Calvin is a French name....did not the French arrive at Carick Castle in the 1780's to invade Ireland (could the Calvins staid ) or have I got the dates wrong.....I am sure someone will pull me up on my history   ;D

Steve
Title: Re: Calvins in Ballynure
Post by: redoak on Sunday 11 January 09 16:59 GMT (UK)
hey June,

am not sure 'Old Arthur' is quite ancient enough but perhaps he may have heard of some Doaks in Ballynure ?
They would have been in the area in the late 1600s and/or early 1700s

best wishes

Ralph Doak

btw, I am already trying to make contact with Ernie Scott
Title: Re: Calvins in Ballynure
Post by: fred111 on Sunday 11 January 09 17:49 GMT (UK)
Hi Ralph, welcome to Rootschat.
 So, we both have ancestors from Ballynure.
I hope you get somewhere with your quest!
Best wishes
 Liz.
Title: Re: Calvins in Ballynure
Post by: redoak on Sunday 11 January 09 18:20 GMT (UK)
not sure if I do have Ballynure ancestors - that's what I'm trying to find out !

Ralph
Title: Re: Calvins in Ballynure
Post by: akanex2 on Monday 12 January 09 01:18 GMT (UK)
Hi Liz

I have Calvins in my family tree from the Macosquin area of Co Londonderry and wondered, if as Steve suggests Roger Calvin was a newcomer to Ballynure, whether your ancestors may have come from that part of the world.  Griffiths Valuation - which gives a complete listing of all ratepayers (i.e. householders) in Ireland in the 1850/60s - records only 18 Calvins in the whole of Ireland, of whom 9 come from Macosquin and one neighbouring parish.  The only Co Antrim Calvin was in Ballymoney, which is much nearer to Macosquin than to Ballynure.

My understanding is that most french immigrants to Ulster were Huguenots - C17th french protestants fleeing religious persecution when the Treaty of Nantes, which had protected their rights, was revoked by the French King.  Around 10,000 came to Ireland, many encouraged by the government to add their textile skills to the growing local linen industry.  Huguenot churches were established in Lisburn in Co Antrim and in Dublin, but most of the descendants of these settlers were absorbed into the Church of Ireland which still retains a Huguenot archive in Dublin.

Hope this helps.
Title: Re: Calvins in Ballynure
Post by: scarletmill on Tuesday 13 January 09 19:38 GMT (UK)
Hi Ralph,

No luck with the Doaks in Ballynure I'm afraid but my husband works with a Doak from Monkstown 5-6  miles up the road.
As for Old Arthur he was very helpful with Ernie Scott - colourful stories is all I'm saying !! Ernie is well into his 70's and lives in Ballyclare now. He did the history of both Ballynure and Straid and had both published a while back. If you need to get in touch directly with him I have his details.

June



Title: Re: Calvins in Ballynure
Post by: fred111 on Tuesday 13 January 09 20:48 GMT (UK)
Akanex2
That's absolutely fascinating.
Thank you so much.
Liz
Title: Re: Calvins in Ballynure
Post by: TheWhuttle on Wednesday 28 January 09 00:34 GMT (UK)
Ralph,

A large family of DOAKs left Ballynure in the "dreadful winter of 1739-40", emigrating to Philadelphia, USA.

All were siblings.
5 brothers - Samuel, John, Nathaniel, Robert and David.
2 sisters - Ann and Thankful.

They took the Great Philadelphia Wagon Road through to Augusta County in the Shenandoah Valley in Virginia.
[This, along with Rockbridge County, is said to be the most Scots-Irish populated region in the present-day USA.]

Samuel married widow Jane MITCHELL, who he knew from back home in Ulster.  They owned land near Staunton, and attended New Providence Pb church.

Their son, also Samuel DOAK (1749-1830) was ordained in 1777, becoming the first resident Pb Minister to witness in East Tennessee, establishing the first school and church West of the Alleghenies in 1778.

At the invitation of the Hugenot colonel John SEVIER, he delivered the famous fiery sermon & prayer to the Overmountain Men at Sycamore Shoals near Elizabethton before the pivotal battle of King's Mountain on 25-SEP-1780, thus becoming the most famous clergyman of the Revolutionary War.

He, and his wife Esther (d. 1807) had four daughters and two sons - John Whitefield DOAK and Samuel Witherspoon DOAK, both of whom became Pb ministers.

The austere CALVIN-ism that DOAK stood for left its mark on the community.
[These folks were, of course, "(King) Billy's Men from the Hills".
Styled in a more relaxed mode nowadays as "Hill Billys" - Yee hah!]


Ref: 
The Scots-Irish Chronicles:

The Scots-Irish in the Hills of Tennessee
Billy KENNEDY
1995 Causeway Press, Ambassador Productions
ISBN 1-898787-46-8
Chapter 16:  How the Scots-Irish shaped religion in Tennessee
pp 131-152, esp. pp 136-142

The Scots-Irish in the Shenadoah Valley
Billy KENNEDY
1996 Causeway Press, Ambassador Productions
ISBN 1-898787-69-7
Chapter 9:  The spirit of CALVINism in the Shenandoah
pp 53-62


There you can read more about the HOUSTONs (of Ballynure), the CROCKETTs (Hugenot CROCKETAGNEs of Castlederg & Donegal, defending Derry in 1688), etc.

I can recommend both as truly great buys/reads!

More on the main theme presently ...

Revving Jock
Title: Re: Calvins in Ballynure
Post by: redoak on Tuesday 31 March 09 01:39 BST (UK)
Hi there, Revving Jock
Many thanks for the comprehensive reply
I'm already aware of Breckenridges, Caldwells, Crocketts, Fin(d)leys, H(o)ustons, Wilsons and other Ulster Scots families associated with the American Doaks - problem remains that we have no real evidence of where the initial Doak emigrants lived in Ulster: Ballynure is just one of the suggested 'home' places in Ulster.
As for the actual composition of the initial emigrant party, that's a whole other minefield - there's six brothers alleged from time to time (add a James to your 5) but we're really only sure of two (Samuel & John) although it's fairly safe to add David as a third brother.
Robert's a real puzzler - there are various reports of him in Virginia in the early years (1740 onwards) but the two main 'sightings' are actually of an entirely different individual called Robert Poage
The known immigrant Robert Doak arrived in Boston on the Elizabeth in 1718 and settled in New Hampshire - some folks like to think he and his wife Margaret were the parents of all the sibling immigrants but that theory is built on extremely implausible and insecure foundations
No sign of any brother James, except perhaps ca 1728 in Pennsylvania, and that James Doke seems more likely to have been a possible father than a sibling.
As for Nathaniel, he's a mythical beast entirely ... immigrant David's son of that name is the first Nathaniel Doak anyone's actually found.
re the sisters, forget Julia: she's another mythical beast (I think it's 2 generations before we get to a knwn Julia Doak).  Most reasonable folk content themselves with three: Ann(e), Elizabeth (the original Thankful Doak, she) and Mary - these respectively married George Breckenridge, John Finley and John Tate, although some still dispute the Tate union in this generation.
The American Doak 'genealogists' have been at this stuff for years, which I suspect explains the mess - and it actually gets worse in some of the later generations - so I was sortakinda hoping there might be some actual trace of Doak occupancy in or around Ballynure.
Doagh (as in Doagh-Ballyclare) was the Ulster home place preferred by my American great-aunt Frances Doak ... and I think some of the Doaks like to claim connection with the Hugh Doak who was Lord Mayor of Belfast in (I think) 1647.  Again, the lack of evidence is profoundly deafening.
However, there's evidence of Doaks, including one called James,  in Co Down in the early 18th century and I've seen a William Doake and sword listed in the Muster Rolls for the Libertyes of Londonderry in the 1630s.
Ah well, maybe we'll turn up something real in the run-in to the tercentenary (2018), by which time maybe we'll have had at least one more Grand Slam to celebrate ? !!

Best wishes from the People's Republic of Cork

Ralph b Manchester
son of Philip b Grand Forks, ND
son of Henry b Guilford Co, NC
son of James W (III) b Guilford Co, NC
son of James W (II) b Guilford Co, NC
son of James W (I) b Lunenberg Co, VA
son of John (brother of Samuel, father of Rev Samuel) b ? Ulster/Scotland ?
re John, there's a notion he was born in 1693 in Galston, Ayrshire but insufficient evidence to connect that individual in any secure way with the John Doak we know of from Virginia in the 1740s and, probably, also in Chester/Lancaster Co, PA, in the 1720s ... or, for that matter, with the John Doak(s), son of Robert and Margaret, who is known to have moved to Donegal, PA, from NH in the 1720s ... hey, I told you it was a mess  >:(

Title: Re: Calvins in Ballynure
Post by: Tyresson2012 on Tuesday 20 September 16 10:04 BST (UK)
Hi

I am looking for information on the Calvin Family from Macosquin.  The wife of my great uncle was Molly (Mary Isabel) Calvin, married to George Coulter and they resided in Cookstown.  Mollys brothers were Samuel, Thomas & John and she had one sister Jeanie.

Any connection?
Title: Re: Calvins in Ballynure
Post by: aghadowey on Wednesday 21 September 16 21:38 BST (UK)
Hi

I am looking for information on the Calvin Family from Macosquin.  The wife of my great uncle was Molly (Mary Isabel) Calvin, married to George Coulter and they resided in Cookstown.  Mollys brothers were Samuel, Thomas & John and she had one sister Jeanie.

Any connection?

Have just posted on separate topic here-
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=756198