RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Staffordshire => Topic started by: Old-Bonez on Monday 22 September 08 08:44 BST (UK)
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I'm new to the site so I hope I'm posting here correctly.
I've been researching my tree for a couple of years now and have come up against a few brick walls. I have several branches now in trouble however if I start with an interesting one it may be easier. All my information has just been obtained from general internet searches without much further "professional" input.
Lets start with TURNER John (yes the potter) 1738 - 1787. Died Brewood Hall Brewood, Staffordshire. Information on the net as well as the Book "Turners of Lane End" indicate that he was born there as well however I don't believe it. I don't believe that the Turners ever owned it but it appears that several generations were raised there. From my research I have found mention of it being leased in the early 1700's to EMERY William (Timber Merchant) whose daughter, Ann married John Turner 15th October 1759. Ann died 1777. I believe both are buried in the local church at Brewood.
The Book states that John was "the son of a Staffordshire lawyer". His parents are still unknown. There are a few pottery sites on the web with information on him and his two sons whom were born in Brewood Hall. Children that I have found are Elizabeth, Sarah, Unknown, William 1762 & John 1766.
I have had correspondence with the Fowke family regarding Brewood Hall and they apparently have no record of either EMERY or TURNER residing there. It is a Fowke crest displayed on the front of the building therefore to my mind they constructed this newer building to replace the old one around 1700.
Any assistance or leads would be gratefully received.
Rob
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Hi Rob
I have a Turner in my tree,and his father George was born in Burslem about 1820 and was also a china manufacturer,his factory was in Hanley.
His son John became a lawyer.
Cheers
Peter
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Hello Peter
We have to look at the time line here. The parents of my John Turner would have been born in the very early 1700's. Remember the 2nd generation was bankrupt in 1806. Burslem is interesting though as their pottery was at Stoke on Trent and John Turner II (son) owned the property "Lightwood". The other son "William" I have nothing on so you could be related through there. I have the name of his property somewhere. Please email me direct.
Thanks for your reply
For those who may be looking be warned there is another potter "Thomas Turner of Caughley" who was the forerunner of the blue willow pattern around the same time. I have never established a link between the two families. I don't believe there is.
Rob
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Rob
I'm not sure if you've seen this site, it might help a little...
http://janfordsworld.blogspot.com/search/label/Brewood%20Hall
and the site owner does respond to e-mail.
Regards
Paul
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Thank you Paul for your input.
It just goes to show that we have to keep looking. I hadn't searched for Brewood Hall for over 12mths. Jan's information and photos were very welcome as I couldn't get a good look at the place.
Encouraged by this I again searched Turner & Emery and came up with the website of the Brewood Church and it's grave information. A wealth of information is now at hand.
I now have both parents of John Turners wife Ann
(D184&5) EMERY Elizabeth 1708 - 1742 wife of EMERY William 1687 - 1767 .. No other information except he was a Brewood Timbermerchant. He must have been successful to have leased Brewood Hall say around the early 1700's.
The Turners have a Box Tomb (Section D 129) containing
TURNER Walter 1732-1766 .. I can only presume this is a brother to my John Turner.
All the others I expected to be there except mention of a Samuel E. MERY wife of Sarah (nee Turner) 1740 - 1804.
I puzzled over this for some time as my records show her as married to a John Glover. It was then I noticed that the Elizabeth Emery headstone (see above) has a difficult to read mention of "Samuel Emery" ... Possibly the person who wrote the information from the headstone could have put a dot in the "EMERY" name making it "E. MERY". I'd be grateful if somebody could take a look for me???
My quest is now to find two things:
1) The parents of John & Walter Turner. Sons of a Staffordshire Lawyer. Any suggestions of where to start?
2) The identity of the person mentioned on the headstone (Area F 63) "To the memory of ANN TURNER of Brewood Cottage who died May 8th 1835" .... I can only imagine that "Brewood Cottage" is an outbuilding of Brewood Hall. Can anybody confirm this?
Any assistance would be greatfully received.
Rob
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I am researching a lady called Mary Ann Turner who was, I believe, the (eldest?) daughter of William Turner (son of John) potter of Lane End. I am not a relative, but am co-authoring a book on 19th century Staffordshire women who had successful careers. It will take the form of a series of single chapter biographies of individual women. None of them are famous. The object is to show just how well many fairly ordinary women managed their lives, and finances, despite all the social and legal obstacles they had to deal with. Mary Ann Turner became matron of Stafford Lunatic Asylum in 1832, at a salary of £75 a year, and remained in post for over twenty years. She died in 1878, aged 77. I wondered whether anyone had any information about her, especially for the period up to 1832?
Pam
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Hi Pam. Thanks for your reply
I have only just started looking at Williams family and have only his Marriage and the fact that he died in Longton. I have knowledge that he had 3 sons of which 2 died in a yachting accident on the Mediterranean. I know nothing of Daughters.
Mary Ann sounds like an interesting woman. She was born c. 1801 & William was bankrupt in 1806 as a result of business losses due to the renewal of the War with France in 1803.
Apparently they lived in one of the poorest areas of Lane End. Since William continued on as a potter he may have earned good money to educate his family. Afterall his sons seemed to have good money and education. Mary Ann would have also have access to the same upbringing... Her father had good contacts which may have benefited her. William was in France at the outbreak of the war and was captured as a Spy. If not for the Marquis of Stafford, who was the Ambassador at the time, William would have been put to death.
Please contact me direct for additional information
Rob
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Not quite sure how to reply 'direct' - is there a facility for that on this site? (I'm a new user, too). William Turner had at least three daughters - Sarah, who married William Palmer, a timber merchant in Hanley and had several children, and Elizabeth and Harriet who died young and presumably unmarried. In her will Mary Ann left £100 to erect a monument to 'my two dead sisters' in Longton parish church. Unfortunately, that church was demolished in 1960 and I am still waiting to hear whether the monument was relocated or not. Mary Ann left most of her money (just under £3000) to Sarah Palmer. I didn't know about the sons who died - does that information come from the Hillier book (in which case I missed it) or elsewhere? When exactly did it happen?
You might find a recent book 'A History of Longton' by JHY Briggs useful - there's quite a lot in it about the Turners. As to them living in a poor part of town - it was certainly a slum area in the mid 20th century but I don't think it was at the beginning of the 19th. They were a highly respectable family - William was an officer in the Yeomanry (which was a sort of Home Guard organisation), not a rank he would have achieved otherwise. And sons from poor families certainly didn't go yachting in the Mediterranean. That is why I am curious about Mary Ann. Respectable young women did not normally work, even in well paid occupations. (And yes, she was quite well educated. Matrons had to write reports and keep meticulous accounts) Admittedly her father had 'gone bankrupt' - though I think that meant something slightly different in 1806 as he still continued to run a business (with another 'bankruptcy sale' in 1812) until 1829. The Mary Ann whose family I am describing is definitely yours (on her death certificate she is described as 'daughter of William Turner potter of Lane End) and I am 99% certain she is the Mary Ann of the Lunatic Asylum (who was certainly born in Lane End). However, I have yet to discover exactly when she was born as there is 5 year discrepancy in the age given on her birth certificate and the age she gave the census enumerators in 1841,1851,1861 and 1871 - though they are obviously the same person because the addresses tally. I am going over to Staffordshire later in the week and if I turn up anything new I will let you know. Meanwhile, I'd be grateful for anything else you can tell me.
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Couple of links about the asylum you might find interesting
http://baxpace.com/stgeorges/index.html
http://www.derelicte.co.uk/stafford-county-lunatic-asylum-st-georges-hospital
Willow x
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Thanks!
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Your welcome! and welcome to Rootschat all of you!
You can send a personal message to anyone on this site by clicking on the little face under their name
Willow x
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I believe that you have been my details as I have been in contacted with the relative of the Turners. I live locally to Longton, Stoke-on-Trent and may be able to give some assistance - even though slightly limited.
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Hello Proud Welshman
This is getting to be better than I could have ever wished for. Could you contact me direct please.
I am sure that Pam would like to ask info on a few of her findings too.
Awaiting your email, Rob
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Hiya Rob
Can you remove your e-mail and PM it Welshman otherwise you might end up with a load of spam (not in tins either!)
Willow x
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I have closed off another posting that ended up running parallel to this one so I'm hoping that both Joy and Crystal will continue and post their findings in here.
Joy.. An update on your findings of Ann Emery's mother. You found from the Brewood register that she was Elizabeth Thrustons? (hard to read). Well I took a look in headstone list in the churchyard and found that there were many Thrustons so I presume that this is the correct name. I logged into "Family search and obtained an IGI on her and then clicked the Pedigree tab .... Whoa... Instantly back through 7 generations to 1540 ..... Thank you very much for the lead Joy!
The tree I received from the USA has proved to be incorrect. Although the same names, birthdates and fathers names (mothers name was different) the one person cant be buried in two places. Not my Turner family.
A PM from Pam reveals that it isn't always easy. Good luck with finding the new parish Pam.
Last but not least. My post for Newport Shropshire has revealed another Turner marriage in Brewood that I can't account for. Maurice has replied saying "You probably have John Turner married Catherine Tagg at St Mary's, Brewood on October 19th 1760". I have searched the Headstones and find none from the "Tagg" family. Also I can't account for this John Turner as this marriage is one year after my potter John Turners marriage.
The puzzle goes on. Could somebody confirm this find in the Brewood register please.
Rob
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Hi Rob and everyone else on here.
I have managed to find the following marriage information and hope its the one you were after:
St Marys & St Chad's, Brewood,
The said John Turner of this parish and Catherine Tagg of this parish were married in this Church by Banns this ninetinth day of October in the year one thoufand seven hundred and sixty by me Thomas (can't read surname) minister. This marriage was folemnized between us John Turner - his mark and Catherine Tagg - her mark. In the prefence of John Simfon (not sure on surname) - signed and John Yates - his mark.
No other details given. I also had time to recheck the burials and found the following for you, both at Brewood:
1788 Jan 2nd , Jno Turner from (looks like 'Lane End' but not sure).
1776 Sep 28, Walter Turner
Also found this baptism, it may be the John and Catherine from the above marriage?:
1776 May 9, John, son of John & Catherine Turner
Hope I have the correct people.
Crystal
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Thank you Crystal.
I've read that a few times now trying to digest just what it means in relation to my Turner family (as I know it) and whether possibly they were related.
At this stage I must say no, purely because they used a mark instead of their signature. My John Turner who married a year earlier was educated and apparently the son of a Brewood Lawyer whose siblings would also be educated. Therefore that John shouldn't be a son of those siblings either.
Walter Turner is mentioned on the Turner Tomb. I have always presumed he was the brother of our "potter John"
The burial date of potter John is interesting as all records have the date as 21st Dec 1787. Your date of burial in Brewood 12 days later makes me think that he didn't die in Brewood but in Lane End where he had his pottery manufactory.
The wording used was "from Lane End" instead of "of Lane End" so I presume it means that he was brought from Lane End to be buried with his wife and not that he was from Lane End and died in Brewood.
I had always thought that in failing health he had returned to Brewood Hall to be nursed by his sister and be close to his wifes grave. Ha!.. another presumption bites the dust.
In Australia there is a well known history of heart problems in the Turner family which may have gone back to this time frame too.
It is good to find that I haven't included their John Turner (9th May 1776) into my Tree.
Rob
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Hi Rob
I must admit I puzzled over the marriage especially after reading all the other info, as you said the family suggests that he should have been able to sign his name - at least you can now cross him off your list as having been checked out.
Re the burial for potter John - the date is obviously why I could not find him before as I had been going by the date you gave me. The fiche was quite difficult to decipher, 3 people each had a go and we all decided that it defiantly looked like 'from Lane End' - End was quite difficult to make out, it was defiantly 3 letters and began with an 'E' and our assumption was End. Hope I have got it right for you but it seems strange that the date does not tally with the one I found? Is it possible that 21 Dec 1787 is the date of death? Some more questions for you I'm afraid.
Crystal
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Hi again Crystal
I'm quite happy to accept the possibility that he actually died in Lane End (Longton) and the 12 day difference is the time it took to organise everything.
Next time you are looking things up could you look for the marriage of potter Johns sister Sarah Turner to Samuel Emery. Family Search has it as "10 JUN 1762 Saint Mary, Stafford" which I have just found this morning.
This search may just reveal where she was from and better still her parents names which is just what I've wanted to find for the past 2 years.
That would be a great start to the new year for me (wishful thinking hehehehe)
Rob
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Hi Rob and Crystal.
Hope you both had a good Christmas and best wishes for the new year.
Rob I'm going into Stafford on Wednesday and hope to spend a couple of hours in the records office. Is there anything in particular you want checking? I'll look at Samuel Emery's marriage for you then look at the registers for Brewood again. Are you interested in the Emery family if I come across them in my search? Whilst I'm there I'll also check where the registers for Longton are held as Stoke on Trent has its own archives.
Joy
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Thanks Joy. Lets all hope that this New Year isn't as bad as it is predicted to be. And I'm closing my business to retire too. Hey it might be timed very well.
A quick refresh of my wish list to get back on track.
1) Identity of Potter Johns Parents which is evasive because I can't find where potter John was from... I don't believe he was from Brewood
2) Confirm the BDM of known ancestors within the Brewood Register
Well today I've received confirmation that the Book "Ancient Brewood" (Mary Wakefield) isn't available in any Australian Library so once again I have to revert to asking for help.
Several sources have made a quote from that book which all are slightly different. I need to know exactly what is written in relation to the father of potter John Turner.
Was he a "Staffordshire Lawyer" OR "Lawyer Turner of Brewood" OR "Lawyer Turner of Brewood Hall"??
The Book "Turners of Lane End" (Bevis Hillier) leaves you with the impression that they owned and lived in Brewood Hall for 3 or 4 generations but my research has found occupation of the Hall only after the 1800's. There is information of Johns father-in-law (wife Ann Emery) father William Emery leasing the Hall from Monkton which I imagine is about 1750. Potter John was born 1738 so if William Emery leased Brewood Hall then logically Lawyer Turner wouldn't be from the Hall. Sure his grandson Henry Turner carried on as a lawyer there until 1853 when Turner occupation of the Hall ceased.
I'll PM you joy with information on how to access my tree so you know just I have.
Rob
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A tiny snippet for you...
From the book 'Brewood' (page 210) by David Horowitz:
"Stone Fleurs-de-lis, about two feet high, which formerly surmounted each of the gate piers, are said to have been the origin of the mark used by John Turner, the famous Staffordshire potter, whose father once lived at the Hall."
Best regards
Paul
(Just down the road from Brewood Hall!)
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Hiya Rob
They have a copy of Ancient Brewood on Amazon
Willow x
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Hi Paul/Willow
Yes Paul I have come across that before but it is not correct. The Turner pottery mark was simply TURNER impressed into the pottery for the bulk of their work. For a while he also used the Prince of Wales feathers when he was appointed his potter and in the latter years "Turners Patent". He also had a few associated potteries where he was a partner.
Gee Willow things change fast. I looked there last night and nothing was available.... As I've already asked Joy to confirm just what was written I think I'll await her reply. If she has no luck then I'll purchase.
Rob
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Hiya Rob
I was on the .co.uk site but they said they can ship internationally
Willow x
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Hi Rob
I followed Crystal's example and wrote the marriage entries down word for word.
This means I looked at John Turner's marriage to Ann again and here's the full entry (I should have done this the first time!!)
St Marys & St Chad's, Brewood,
John Turner of the parish of Stoke in the County of Stafford, Potter and Ann Emery of this parish, spinster were married in this church by License with the consent of her father this fifteenth day of October one thousand seven hundred and fifty nine by me Richard Fenton Vicar. This marriage was solemnized between us John Turner and Ann Emery. In the presence of Richard (can't read surname) and Sam: Emery. They all signed.
Here's Samuel and Sarah's marriage.
St Marys, Stafford
Samuel Emery of the parish of Brewood, and Sarah Turner of this parish, spinster were married in this church by License this tenth day of June one thousand seven hundred and sixty two by me Joseph Dickenson, Rector. This marriage was solemnized between us Samuel Emery and Sarah Turner. In the presence of Henry S Turner and John Hurlbutt. They all signed.
I also found the following marriage at St Marys Stafford which may be of interest to you. I don't know if there's any connection but the name caught my eye.
Henry Turner of the parish of Castle Church in this county, gentleman and Prudence Sutton of this parish, were married in this church by License this twenty second day of December one thousand seven hundred and fifty seven by me Joseph Dickenson, Rector. This marriage was solemnized between us Henry Turner and Prudence Sutton. In the presence of John Hurlbutt and J. (can't read surname). They all signed.
I looked at the baptisms for Brewood from 1759 to 1780. There are no baptisms for John and Ann's children. There are baptisms for both Samuel and Sarah's children and John and Catherine Turner's children.
Here are Samuel and Sarah's children - all the dates are baptism dates.
January 11th 1763 William son of Samuel and Sarah Emery
April 18th 1765 Samuel son of Samuel and Sarah Emery
May 17th 1766 Walter Turner son of Samuel and Sarah Emery
May 25th 1768 Sarah daughter of Samuel and Sarah Emery
June 8th 1769 Ann daughter of Samuel and Sarah Emery
September 24th 1770 John son of Samuel and Sarah Emery
March 7th 1772 Henry son of Samuel and Sarah Emery
June 3rd 1773 Elizabeth daughter of Samuel and Sarah Emery
February 28th 1775 Mary Ann daughter of Samuel and Sarah Emery
April 10th 1776 Prudence daughter of Samuel and Sarah Emery
September 22nd 1777 John son of Samuel and Sarah Emery
January 8th 1779 Fanny daughter of Samuel and Sarah Emery
Hope you find the above infomation useful.
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And Joy states "Hope you find the information useful" .... I'm ecstatic!
John Turners marriage states "In the presence of Richard ? & Sam Emery". I trust they would be what we have now as a Witness and are always a great friend or family member. In Ann's case this "Sam" is probably an unknown brother. In Johns case Richard would be a trusted friend ... if the Last word was Turner I'm sure you would have recognised it.
Sarah Turners marriage reveals she was from that parish so I now know she was living there for a while then. I have another unknown family member as it was witnessed by Henry S Turner who could be another brother.
The marriage of Henry Turner is interesting too as it reveals "Castle Church" and the same witness name of John Hurlbutt has me thinking and asking was he a friend or a professional witness???
The missing Baptisms for John and Ann's children is no surprise as they settled in Lane End and you have disproved my theory that Ann returned to Brewood to have her children in the family home (Brewood Hall)
The dozen children of Sarah and Samuel Emery is great to find as I had none of their children.
Thank you very very much for the great information as it has filled in another sector of the Turner Time line in Brewood.
One question to answer though. Would you please let me know just what years you have looked at so we know those years are researched.
It now appears that I will have to investigate "Castle Church" as a possible place of birth of my John Turner. I will know if I have the right family as it will probably be a family of Walter, Henry, John & Sarah to possibly parents John and Sarah although I'm now starting to think twice about my parents name theory... give me a little time to digest this before delving in head first.
Grinning like a chessire cat
Rob
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Thanx Dozey_Joy
Its people like you that make Rootschat such a brilliant place ;D
Willow x
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Willow
I've enjoyed it and it's been good practice reading the handwriting in the parish registers. It also makes a change from trying to find Jones and Edwards!!
Rob
There's several points to add to my previous post.
1) I think Castle Church refers to the church near Stafford Castle.
2) I've searched the baptisms for Brewood from 1760 to 1780 inclusive. There may be more children for Samuel and Sarah after this date.
3) I've searched the marriages for St Marys, Stafford from 1754 to 1762 inclusive and those two were the only Turner marriages.
4) I forgot to say before but I asked about being married by license. There should be some records concerning the application for the license but these are with the diocese records and are kept at Lichfield. These records may or may not give extra details but it could be worth finding out. Perhaps Crystal can help again?
Joy
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Happy New Year everybody
Pam has been keeping me busy with information on potter Johns sons (William) family as well as his other son Johns family... Everything is after 1760 and rich in detail.
We have proved in here that there is no information in Brewood on potter John Turner prior to his marriage to Ann Emery in 1759. The only spark of information comes from Mary Wakefields 1932 book "Ancient Brewood" which I have already spoken of a couple of weeks back.
Joys information has filled in another gap in the tree and a fresh lead in finding Henry S Turner of Castle Church.
So if he was a brother to Sarah and witness to her marriage than the birth place of their brother "potter John" could be Castle Church
When somebody has some time could they take a look please.
Here are names and dates:
(Remember that parents names are unknown but I believe they will found to be John and Sarah)
ABT 1732 Henry S Turner
ABT 1734 Walter
b. 1738 John
Abt 1740 Sarah I
As always there is no rush.
Rob
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hey rob,
in the book Turners of Lane End,it mentions a Mr David Lea Turner, he's my great,great,great Grandad. i was wondereing if there if this is the same Turner family as yours?
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Hello cousin Zachary
Well we are very distant cousins at least. From these postings you would know I am a descendant of the well known potter John Turner which I guess you are too. I have managed to go back up my line but to come down each branch is difficult.
Pam has done well with her research into Mary Ann Turner and others of "son Williams" line. I am a descentant of "son John" ... without studying things I'm guessing that you are a decedent of "son Johns son", lawyer Henry Turner of Brewood & Wolverhampton. My line comes from "son Thomas" who together with his other brother (John Entwhistle) came to Australia
As for David Lea Turner I haven't found him yet to place into my tree. Perhaps we can work together on it.
Rob
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Hey,
Well i have a turner family bible which has birth and death entries,which dates back to about 1845, and i can try and put a list together this week of all the names and dates.
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All we will need to do then is link your data to the potter John Turner and everything should fit.
I will send you a PM with access info to my tree... You may already know how the link is made when you see this.
Cousin Rob...lol
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Thank you Paul so very much for your PM relating to Mary Wakefield's book "Ancient Brewood"
It is interesting that she says "John Turner's father was Lawyer Turner of Brewood Hall".
One would think that since there are so many surviving leagal documents of his great grandson (lawyer Henry) there would be some sort of mention somewhere of an earlier Brewood Lawyer.
It has also got me thinking of the possibility that the Hall was leased to William Emery after John's fathers death. Did the Turner children continue to live there with the Emerys or since they were now almost adult did they simply live elsewhere as there was no longer a bread winner in the family. Possibly this is why John Turner took up a potting apprentership with Daniel Bird which is a trade I think is most unlike the son of a lawyer would want.
Enough of this thinking out loud but it does show just what a little information does to my thinking pattern.
Thank you so very much Paul for clarifying that snippet of information.
Rob
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Thanks Zac for your PM and your tree as you know it which goes back to a George Turner.
I have a George in the tree that I have absolutely nothing on. He was the 2nd youngest son of John Turner & Mary Hyde and a full brother to John Entwhistle & Thomas Turner who came to Australia.
All we have to do now is prove that your George is my George which will again take a little research. Yes they are about the same timeframe.
Let me research Family Search a little to see just what comes up on George Turner b. 1814 & Christened 12th Feb 1815 St. John's Lane End.
What is the chance Joy/Crystal that you could look in the Brewood register for a Marriage which I can really find nothing of in Family Search.
George would have been brought up living in Brewood Hall & with luck he may have married there. If we find he married a "Mary" then we have a fair link.
What is the chance that you can post a census look up Zac as people must be getting sick of my requests for help. He is your ancestor too!
Rob
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Oh... I also know that George was an Army surgeon and saw active service in India in 1840s.
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Joy or Crystal. When you are next in a records office could you please take a look at this entry in the Brewood Registry.
"02 Feb 1713 Johannes Turner & Sara Nichols mar."
I came across it out of pure frustration whilst searching any John & Sarah marriages in Staffordshire. Since potter John was born in 1738 and I was presuming his parents married in 1730 then 1713 is a little early by my reckoning but it is in Brewood where they were supposed to have lived.
I have found no children in Brewood that are of that marriage
Like always there is no rush
Rob
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Hi Rob, Joy and everyone else here
Rob - so sorry but it took longer to recover from my stomach thingy than I anticipated and this last week I've been laid up with the flu thats going round and which OH kindly donated to me but am feeling better today so thought I'd better update you with what I've found.
I managed a bit of time at the Records Office before the flu got me but didn't check the thread before I went so will ask about the marriage licences when I go next time which hopefully should be this Saturday - I'm hoping I'll back on my feet by then as I also need to check something out on one of my lines which has just come to light.
For your records, I have checked the records for Castle Church, Stafford between 1735- 1755 inclusive - this includes baptisms, burials and marriages as they are all on one fiche. I did find lots of baptisms for Emery's but none for any Turners! Let me know if you want the details of the Emery baptisms as I made a note of them just in case - they are for the children of Thomas & Margaret Emery and one for Thomas and Sarah Emery, also have the marriage for Thomas and Margaret. Didn't want to post them and confuse things as they may not be relevant.
I did however find the following marriages but don't know if they are relevant-
Feb 13, 1733 Richard Blakemore & Mary Turner,married
Mar 18 1733 Walter Turner & Mary Phipps, married
Apr 6 1733 Thomas Turner & Sarah Spender, married (this one was in Latin and luckily the Archivist knew Latin)
Sept 16 1735 John Turner & Mary Ward, married
Unfortunately that is all the information given in registers of that era which is not alot of use to us when trying to untangle the family webs.
Let me know what you think of the above and if you need anything else checking on Saturday.
Crystal
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Hi Rob, Crystal and everyone else.
Crystal - I hope you're feeling better. I bet your OH is not very popular at the moment!
Rob - I'm hoping to go to the records office next Tuesday. I'll check back here before I go and see if Crystal was able to find anything and then decide what to do next. Are we trying to find a link between you and Zac?
Joy
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Hi Rob, Joy and everyone else.
Well, what a day I had in the Records Office yesterday ;D ;) I think it must have been one of my most productive days - if I was feeling really wicked I could leave it there and come back later with the information ::) but as I'm not, I'll tell you now -
I asked about the Licence applications for the marriages Joy had found and was able to view all 3 of them! I must say as I have not had anything to do with this type of record before I was unsure what to expect but must say I was very impressed, especially as you are actually looking at the original documents completed by your ancestors and with their signatures as well - Rob, even though this is not my 'own' family, I felt very emotional looking at them yesterday. What you actually get is the Licence and then a separate page/letter completed by the 'clerk surrogate' which states the oath sworn by the bridegroom. I have not transcribed the Licences as they were abit too hard going and time was short but I have transcribed the main details from the sworn statements - as there is quite a lot of info and I was insure how many times I would have to post to send it all, I decided to send the transcripts to you by email Rob and then you can forward them on to anyone else. Joy, if you PM me your email I will send you a copy as I think you will find it interesting especially after the work already done. I got really excited at some of the info on them and am hoping this is what you needed Rob and will find it as exciting as I did. I was unable to obtain photocopies yesterday as resources are limited on a Saturday morning but will go in again for copies if you would like Rob, I must admit, if it was me, copies would be a must- let me know.
I also found the following marriages for you at Brewood, I checked the years between 1826 -1848 :-
'Richard (Farnell/Tarnell) of this parish widower and Hannah Turner of this parish spinster were married by Banns this twenty seventh day of December in the year one thoufand and eight hundred and twenty six by C Jayson, curate. Both made their Mark but could not make out the witness names.'
'Edward Onion of this parish bachelor and Jane Turner of this parish spinster were married in this Church by Banns this twenty sixth day of April in the year one thoufand eight hundred and twenty nine by me M Kemsey, officiating minister. Edward signed and Jane by her Mark,witnesses were Thomas Upton & Zacharias Bayden'
'William Turner of this parish, bachelor and Maria Jones, of this parish, spinster were married in this church by Banns this twenty second day of January in the year one thoufand eight hundred and thirty five. Both made their Mark and witness was George Croft.'
'Richard Radford of this parish and Sarah Turner of this parish were married by Banns this fourth day of April in the year one thoufand an eight hundred thirty six by me, James Carter, curate. Richard signed and Sarah by her Mark, witnesses were Henry Radford & (?) Layton'
'May 31 1841
George Turner, of full age, bachelor, Labourer and resident at Aspley, Father - Thomas Turner, Labourer and
Mary Talbot, of full age, spinster, resident at Aspley, Father - Thomas Talbot, Labourer.
Married after Banns, both made their Mark and witnesses were Elizabeth Richards & George Richards.'
'7 May 1845
William Henry Smith, of full age, bachelor, Esquire and resident at Barlaston. Father - John Smith, Esquire and
Ann Turner, of full age, spinster and resident at Brewood. Father - John Turner, Esquire.
Married by Licence, both signed and witnesses were Harry Turner, (Harriet) Turner,(Frederick)Smith and (?) Turner.'
The last marriage looked very interesting, what do you think, also is the 1841 marriage for George the one you wanted? I have posted details of the others just in case any thing rings a bell or ties in any where although I don't think some of the marriages are 'yours'.
That was all I had time for although I did check the fiche for Johannes Turner and Sara Nichols, 2 Feb 1713 but the fiche was very unreadable - Joy, I noted that a transcript is available for this on the open shelves at Stafford so could you possibly have a look at that? Lichfield don't have a transcript for it.
Well, thats all for now - let me know what you think Rob and hope the information is what you needed.
Crystal ;D
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Hey ... great work Crystal and thanks for the effort.
I'm off the net for at least another week yet so I'll study it all as soon as I get the chance.
I'll reply then
Regards, Rob
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Hi everybody
My proper connection is still not up and working yet but I'm at a friends place which has allowed me some time to really look at this information.
At first glance the Castle Church information doesn't look as if it is where my Turners originated from. It is such a pity as it is the first new lead I've had. Thanks for the effort Crystal.... I'll . data just in case something else leads me there.
When Crystal gets moving she really gets going... The 1841 marriage of George Turner & Mary Talbot in Brewood looked very promising. If it is our George then he would have been 27 which fits in so very well.
Now for what I think doesn't fit in. As I've said before, the Turners were all educated and hence would have been able to read and write. Our George would have been at this time quite wealthy as his mother had just passed away a year earlier. Even though there were 7 surviving children the inheritance would have been substantial. This George was a laborer as was his father "Thomas". The father of our George was John so I must say that we have another miss in this search.
Again, they must be part of the other Turner family in Brewood
Finally in 1845 you have found Ann Turner. Daughter of John Turner esquire. My tree has a Ann Turner but this would have made her 42 at the time of marriage. My tree also says she died 1835. I will have to look further into this as I feel it is of the next generation.
More data to store for possible later use
Thanks again Crystal for your effort here.
Regards, Rob
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Hi everyone
I went to Stafford last Tuesday but didn't have much success. I certainly didn't do as well as Crystal did. It sounds as though she had quite a day.
I tried to find the marriage between Johannes Turner and Sara Nichols in 1713. As Crystal said the fiche is unreadable but I did look at the transcript. Unfortunately the marriage wasn't in the transcript. I resorted to sitting with the transcript, looking at the fiche and trying to make sense of it all. However I failed and couldn't see the marriage at all. Rob are you sure the marriage was at Brewood? Where did you get the information from?
I also checked Brewood for baptisms which would tie in with Johannes and Sara's marriage but there were none. However I did find what could be William Emery's baptism.
"Baptized was William the son of Samuel Emery Feb 12 Anno Dom 1707/8".
Joy
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Hi Joy
Sorry for the run around that I have put you through relating to "Johannes & Sarah" ... I have only just realised I must have the wrong parish.
I have been researching the Turners and Brewood for so long now that I can no longer remember just where I obtain things from. Over some time I have collected the odd parish record translations wherever I find them and browsing through them recently I had found "Johannes & Mary" within a PDF simply named St Chad's Stafford. I had this written down on a pad of things I have to look into and in error I had asked in my posting for it to be looked up before checking that I had the correct St Chads. I now realise that this St Chads is in Stafford and not Staffordshire area.
Sorry... my error.
Rob
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Hi Rob
That's alright. At least I know I wasn't missing something obvious. When I get chance I'll check the register for St Chads Stafford but I don't know when I'll get to the records office again.
Joy
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Thanks for the offer to still look it up Joy however it is in the wrong parish and the wrong timeframe. It was only the names that seemed to fit which is why I wrote it down.
If only I could find a list of Lawyers of that time frame in Staffordshire I might just bump into potter Johns fathers true identity.
Rob
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Thank you Crystal for your PM and the transcriptions of the marriage licenses for our known 3 marriages in Brewood.
John Turners marriage license simply confirms what we already knew however the marriage of Henry is a totally different story because I presumed he was a brother... obviously he is not.
Henry Turner-Transcription of The Oath Made By Henry Turner
20 December 1757
On this day appeared personally before me Henry Turner of the Parish of Castle Church in the County of Stafford Gentleman aged forty years and a widower and intends to marry Prudence Sutton of the Parish of St Mary Stafford aged thirty years and a widow
Signed Henry Turner before Joseph Dickenson’’
This reveals firstly that he was older than I expected. 40 meaning a birthdate abt 1717. It also reveals he was a widower and Prudence a widow.
5 years later he is a witness to Johns sisters wedding. Apparently this usually indicates a father or brother.
Lets do some math. If he was indeed the father to John & Sarah than John would have been born when Henry was 19 and Sarah would have been when he was 21.
One catch... who is Walter who is 4 years older than John that is mentioned on the Turner Tomb... I had always presumed him to be Johns brother? Lets leave him out for the time being.
Lets go back to Castle Church. Crystal has searched 1735 - 1755 and came up blank... we now have a date to go on. There may be a christening date for Henry Turner in 1717.
If Henry is their father then we have a possible wedding date based on the oldest child's birth. John was born 1738 and if Walter is a full brother he was born 1734.
If Henry is the father it also answers a few other things.
Regards, Rob
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Rob
Just to clear up a point. Of the three marriages you mention only one took place in Brewood - that of John and Ann. The other two took place at St Mary's in Stafford. It gets confusing when all the churches have the same name!
It looks like the Turners may have a connection to Stafford and it's probably also worth trying to find out more about Henry.
Joy
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Hi Joy
Yes that used to throw me. Almost every time I had to look up the church website to get the proper name. The Brewood Church is "St Mary & St Chad"
Sometimes I find it referred to as simply "St Marys" other times the full name and then to confuse things further it is also referred to as "St Chads" which is where I got it wrong when asking for that wrong information.
To answer your question.. Yes all three were married in the same church. Brewood!
Henry's second wife "Prudence Sutton" has me intrigued. I've been searching for information on her but can't find a Sutton family in Brewood at that time. The book "Turners of Lane End speaks of an unknown Mrs Turner who ran a Ladies School in Meir House (Longton). Her identity is unknown and could just be Prudence who would have been 70 when the advertisement was in the Staffordshire Advertiser newspaper.
Did you receive my PM with the details of how to enter the family tree to double check information on the Turners? I find myself there constantly trying to keep my head right. So please don't think it isn't confusing.
There is a lot of information I have received that isn't correct. So many sources have obtained the incorrect data and repeated it.
Rob
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Joy... Again I must apologise to you.
After replying to your question last night I slept on it and have been checking the facts this morning.
On looking at things I find that the site Family Search was the first to report happenings in Brewood as "St Marys. Stafford".
Not knowing Staffordshire or English protocol where so many things are abbreviated I had accepted that this was simply an accepted abbreviation for "St Mary & St Chad. Staffordshire". The fact that Stafford actually had a church called St Mary and another called St Chad never occurred to me until recently when I sent you on that wrong search.
On re reading your post I now realise that both Sarah Turner and Henry Turner were married in St Marys in Stafford and not Brewood as I had read it.
Thank you Joy for highlighting my error. Stupid errors like this can make such a difference when trying to find the full story. :-[
Rob
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Hi Joy and Rob
Just posting the results of my search last Saturday - apologies for delay but it has been a bad week. Anyway, I wasn't sure where to start so I checked the baptisms for Brewood that was mentioned to Joy from 1801 - 1831 and nothing that relates to your Turner family as I could see, so we can rule that one out. There are other Turner families there and plenty of baptisms form them but I could not see a link with yours. However, Rob, do you want me to email those to you as 'not related', you then have all the info if a link with them appears at a later date and it will save us going back again - I won't post them on here to avoid confusion. I have found this useful with my research - I copy all the names down down as I'm looking even if they don't appear to have any relevance at this stage and they come in useful for cross checking later on - especially if someone gives you a name and date with no other info, you can then rule it out?
Castle Church and St Chad's, Stafford both had a book of transcriptions on the shelf which I checked and came up with the following (not sure if you have these already):
Castle Church:
1656/7 4 Apr, Mary daughter of John & Mary turner - baptism
St Chads, Stafford:
1713 2 Feb, Johannes Turner & Sara Nichols - marriage
1796 6 Jan, Mary daughter of Thomas & Elizabeth Turner - born & baptised
1796 8 Jan, Mary daughter of Thomas & Elizabeth Turner (above) - infant burial
1797 26 Aug, Elizabeth daughter of Thomas & Elizabeth Turner - baptism (born 12 Aug 1797)
1800 1 Jan, Rebecca daughter of Thomas & Elizabeth Turner - baptism
1802 14 Jan, Ann daughter of Thomas & Elizabeth - baptism
As no other info is given I'm not sure if they 'belong' to you or not but copied the details just in case - hope I'm not adding to the confusion!! I did not have time to check all of the transcriptions but could not see baptisms for William b 1762 or Henry b 1717.
Sadly that was all I managed in the few hours that were available but I have my list for next time! Rob, let me know if you want the 'not connected names' emailing and I'll send them over.
I also arranged for the Marriage Licence applications to be photocopied and they are now in the 'photocopying queue' and I will be contacted when they are ready for collection. Rob - can you email me your address so I can then post them out to you?
Sorry nothing positive this time but at least eliminated some areas.
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Thanks Crystal for your weekend search. Even though it hasn't revealed any thing new it has certainly ruled out other things.
It appears that nothing else can be extracted from Brewood and your search of Castle Church has revealed a Turner which is about 3 generations earlier than my current earliest found Turner so I can't prove them to be related as there is nothing in between. Good for my general unknown list though.
St Chads has revealed the Johannes & Sarah 1713 that I sent Joy on the wrong trail for. I still feel I have plenty of egg on face for confusing the three churches ... Unfortunately the Thomas and Elizabeth information is all around 1800 which is too late in time to be brothers or parents of potter John. Again they will be stored in a "not related" list just in case they should pop up as cousins or similar.
The only other place left to search is St Mary's Stafford where both Henry and Sarah were married. It is the only obvious place left to look for the baptisms of John & Sarah .... possibly Walter could also be there (1731 - 1741 plus some more in case they were late)
Henry was born 1717 & as a widower married Prudence Sutton in 1757 in the church. He was from Castle Church parish and Crystals search of that parish revealed no baptisms so possibly no more children or they simply settled elsewhere. It also failed to find Henry's own Baptism.
If Henry is indeed potter Johns father then the only other place to search for Henry & Prudence after their marriage is in the Stoke on Trent area. They may have followed John after his success in potting and Prudence could be the unknown Mrs Turner of Meir house who ran the ladies school which would have made her 70 at the time. Pam found many baptisms of both sons children in St. John`s Church Lane End (Longton). It could be a fine place to start to look for children of Henry & Prudence as well as their deaths.
This leave me almost out of hunches or places to possibly look. If nothing more is found I feel that we might as well wind this search down and take a well earned rest.... Ahhhhhhh!
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Thanks for the PM Joy & yes I also find this Turner family intriguing especially since they are my ancestors.
I agree that obtaining both Henry's and his wifes wills will probably solve this but I don't know how to arrange it from here in Sydney especially since I don't have dates of passing. Sure I'd pick up the tab if it could be arranged.
Well a few weeks have passed and I've been quietly mulling things over. I was looking at Sarah Turners children and noticed that all the earlier ones were names of known family members and then "Mary Ann" struck me as a name of a family member that was unknown to me ... could this be her mothers name I'm thinking (sure the last born children have new names).
Potter Johns son William also has a daughter named Mary Ann (Pam was talking about her in an earlier message in this discussion).
So the question now being put is do we agree that there is a strong chance that Mary Ann is the name of Henrys first wife and mother to potter John and Sarah?
So with this I went searching in "Family Search" and came up almost blank when looking for a Henry Turner born abt 1717. I came up totally blank when searching for a marriage of Henry and Ann in a time frame that would fit. Everything was suggesting Henry was born 1707
So now I have to slip in another "if" ... From the turner tomb there is mention of Walter Turner which I had presumed was a brother but for this to be (according to his wedding licence) Henry would have only just been 17 if not 16 when he fathered Walter. I'm thinking not very likely.... Now here is the if ... what if Henry really was 50 and so he could marry he had to say 40 to not to upset the brides family. Now Walter fits in and now I can research what "Family search" has found.
The only thing relating to Stafford that might fit in is possible parents to Henry. We have a Marriage of John Turner to Sarah Taylor 18th Nov 1703 Wombourn, Stafford ... we have to look for their children & one called Henry in the Wombourn parish records .. A good indicator is if the marriage was by licence.
I'll post a look up request for the others that showed up in the respective places of Roots Chat.
Thanks for reading my rambling but it goes to show I'm really clutching at straws.
Rob
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It's amazing just what you think of when you get a little spare time.
The Baptisms of John Turners children were found in St Johns, Longton... All except the first born William. Apparently this was before St. Johns Church was finished but it also coincides with when potter John first set up in Lane End (Longton)
Reading up my info on potter John I find he "was established by 1756 in a partnership with R. Banks, making white stoneware, in a factory on the site of what is now Copeland-Spode, in Stoke upon Trent. He moved to Lane End in 1759. (1762 according to Jewitt)"
Since William was born in 1762 it is possible he was christened in a church close to what is now the Copeland Spode factory in Stoke. A quick look up reveals this factory to be in Church Street.
In fact the church could be the same as where Josia Spode himself is buried .... St. Peter Ad Vincula, Stoke.
Could somebody take a look for the birth/christening of William which I have as abt. 1762. (Parents John & Ann Turner)
I don't know of any other Turners that may be mentioned in any Stoke registers in this timeframe.
As always... no rush!
Thanks, Rob
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Hi Rob and Joy
Hope you are both well.
I managed to get an hour at the records office yesterday and found a few Turner's but not sure if they are the ones you want Rob, so I will post them and you can ponder over them.
Wombourn, Stafford - marriage
John Turner & Sarah Taylor - 18 Nov 1703
Unfortunately it did not mention by licence or anything else for that matter! I checked the baptisms for Wombourn from 1701 to 1714 but have to admit defeat on these as they were very illegible and Lichfield does not have any transcriptions for them - don't know if Stafford have any?
I also checked the baptisms for St. Peters, Stoke from 1759 - 1770 and found the following:
1761 6 Dec, John son of John & Marg't Turner, Lane End.
1762 3 Mar, W'm son of John & Mary Turner, Stoke.
1764 22 Nov, Walter son of John & Mary Turner, Stoke.
Those were the only Turners within that time frame. I am also wondering if 'Marg't has been entered instead of 'Mary' or could be I am reading it wrong (the fiches were quite hard going and faint in places) - Joy, maybe you could have a look at that one and see what you think of it? A second pair of eyes is often the answer.
That was all I had time to check - let me know what you think
Best wishes
Crystal
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Hi Rob and Crystal
I managed another visit to Stafford last week.
With regards to the baptism at St Peters, Stoke in 1761 I agree with Crystal and it is Marg't. The transcript of the register agreed with us as well.
I asked about wills and at that time wills were proved by the church courts so any wills for Staffordshire should be at Lichfield as that's the diocese Staffordshire comes under. I was also told that as Henry described himself as a gentleman there is a good chance he left a will. As I said the wills themselves are at Lichfield although they do have a copy of the index at Stafford. I didn't have time to look at that.
I did look at the registers for St Marys, Stafford to see if I could find what happened to Henry and Prudence after their marriage and I found the following.
Baptisms
January 1759 Prudence daughter of Henry and Prudence Turner born 11 baptized 12
February 1760 Henry son of Henry and Prudence Turner born 8 baptized 9
April 1761 John son of Henry and Prudence Turner born 9 baptized 10
November 1762 Sarah daughter of Henry and Prudence Turner born 5 baptized 7
Burials
December 1762 Sarah daughter of Henry and Prudence Turner buried 19
August 1771 Henry Turner buried 13
So it looks as though they stayed in Stafford and that's where Henry died.
It also looks like Prudence remarried on the 15th April 1773 as there was a marriage for Prudence Turner,widow to a James Lander of Sandon. Also the daughter Prudence married a John Webb in 1775 and there's also a thomas Turner marrying a Sarah Sowker in 1771. All three marriages were by license. If you want the exact details from the register for the marriages let me know as I have got them.
I'm not sure where we go from here but I will let you know if I come up with any ideas.
Best Wishes
Joy
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Joy
Well those finds are very very interesting.
I've spent the last month working on another branch breakthrough and received Pam Inders chapter she has written on Mary Ann Turner. Admittedly I had put aside this particular line of research and I'm very appreciative of your efforts here on keeping it going.
I've spent an hour re-reading everything to simply get my head back into it. At first I was very excited because all the family names were appearing but looking into them the dates all appear to be one generation out.
If potter John Turner had a older brother named Henry then these could logically be his children but then again as his widower father Henry married the widow Prudence Sutton (which was found in St Marys Stafford 1757) then these would be the children of that marriage and potter Johns half brothers & sisters which appears to me the most likely situation. I'm just a little perplexed as to why the father Henry would name the children of his second wife the same names of his first wifes children.
Enough of this .... let me mull it over for a week or so to get it back in my head.
Rob
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Crystal
Having the chance now to look at it with a fresh mind I have noticed something. Your baptism find of 1762 & 1764 for William and Walter I had just realised that they were for John & Mary and not Ann. My head screams Ughhhhh!
The William fits into my family perfectly and there is a timeframe slot for the Walter whose name is also a family name listed on the Turner Tomb (not the same person though).
You had trouble on the 1761 find thinking it was Margaret but then agreeing that it wasn't. Could it be something like "MaryAnn" or a listing of both names with a symbol between meaning birth name?? (Sorry for the wild guess that needs to be asked of an expert).
hehehe... We are starting to get more puzzle pieces than are falling into place
Rob
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Hi Crystal & Joy
After 2 years of searching and having finally found the family of the potter John Turner I'm re visiting my old posts to see what else can be linked in.
Just for clarification his parents were Walter Turner (abt1717 Newport) & Mary Phipps (abt1706) Married Castle Church, Stafford 1734. Grandparents were John Turner (1681) & Sarah Taylor. That line is now pretty clear. see http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,340410.0.html
Joy ... you were looking at the family of widower Henry S Turner who married widow Prudence Sutton. I cannot relate him into my tree however he was a witness at potter Johns sisters wedding (Sarah)so he must be family and I'm guessing she lived with him after her own mothers death in 1756 (Walter & Mary).
You listed children and deaths from the church register as well as marriages of the children. You also came across a " Thomas Turner marrying a Sarah Sowker in 1771" ... Apparently he is not a son to Prudence Sutton so he must be of Henry's first unknown wife. Would you still have your information on him??
Crystal ... Your find of "John Turner & Sarah Taylor - 18 Nov 1703" was spot on and the Grandparents of the potter John. You also produced an interesting find that I'll have to look into because it is a great fit but to the wrong mother. You wrote "1762 3 Mar, W'm son of John & Mary Turner, Stoke" .... Note this!! all records show that potter John Turner and his wife Ann Emery gave birth to William 3 Mar 1762 Stoke. He was their 1st born son after marrying in Oct 1759.
If your information is correct then everybody has the wrong birth date for our William. Unless of course she was known as Mary ... nahh!
Then again you had:
1656/7 4 Apr, Mary daughter of John & Mary turner - baptism Castle Church ... where Henry S Turner was from
Castle Church & St Marys Stafford as well as Stoke & Lane End/Longton ... They have to be family!!
I'd appreciate if either of you could take a fresh look at this to see if I have missed anything obvious that would link these Turners
Rob
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Hi Rob
You must be pleased to have finally solved the problem of John's parents. It just shows that answers turn up when you least expect.
I'll have a look and see if I've still got my notes and next time I get to the Records Office in Stafford I'll have another look through the parish records and see if I can tie it all together. I don't know when I'll get chance to go - I broke my ankle earlier in the year and I'm just getting back to normal now.
Having read your other post on the Shropshire board it's all starting to make sense. Newport is only just in Shropshire and just a few miles away from Weston Park and Ivetsey Bank. Brewood is then just a few miles further east. Rickerscote is now an area of Stafford which explains the family's connection with Stafford. It's on the southern edge of Stafford but I guess at the time we are talking about it would have been considered a separate place.
Anyway I'll see what I can find.
Joy
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I am interested in the Turner family as they relate to Thomas Whieldon, perhaps the most eminent Staffordshire Potter of the mid 18th century. I agree that there is no way John Turner was born at Brewood. I would like to suggest he may be related to a London family.
Sarah Turner was Thomas Whieldon's 3rd wife and they married in 1776. The marriage bond in Lichfield archives gives lots of good information. Thomas Whieldon's dates are 1719-1795 Sarah's dates are 1749- 1828. I think it too great a co-incidence that John Turner the potter was noted in the marriage agreement and the oldest son was called John Turner Whieldon - for there not to be a family connection - but I am still struggling to find it.
Sarah Turner lived with her father, John Turner of Cumberland Street in the parish of St. Mary le Bone Co Middlesex. The marriage at Stoke-upon-Trent was by marriage license. Thomas stood as his own bondsman and was not referred to as a potter but as Thomas Whieldon Esq. (note John Turner the potter was associated with a pottery sales business in London - was this inherited from his father?)
Thomas and Sarah Whieldon had 6 children and by their marriage agreement the real estate was to be entailed upon the eldest son of the marriage and an additional ₤5,000 was to be settled amongst any other children. This secured the Turner family money about ₤10,000 brought into the marriage by Sarah. One of the signatories to the marriage settlement was James Christie of Pall Mall, parish of St. James Westminster, Auctioneer; and one of the executors nominated in the subsequent will was John Turner, potter of Lane End Staffordshire.
Their first son was John Turner Whieldon - I think he was disabled/disadvantaged in some way as a younger brother - George always acted for him - he was a lawyer in London.
I have a little more if anyone is interested.
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Hello Queensware
The Turner family this discussion was about is the potter John Turner and his sons William and John. The period of the various potbanks of interest is say before 1762 to 1806. The book "The Turners of Lane End" by Bevis Hillier would be a good starting point to read up. (1965 Corey, Adams & Mackay)
Like yourself, I've often been confused by the name similarities when researching my Turners. The earlier mentioned names, dates & places are indeed correct for this particular family.
A recent article by Rodney Hampson of the Northern Ceramics Society titled "Turner Origions" (I think) reveals his birth and family going back a further 2 generations)
In the past I have briefly looked at the Sarah Turner who was the 2nd or 3rd wife of your Thomas Wheildon only to come to the conclusion that the London based Turners were of no apparent connection to my Shropshire & Staffordshire Turners.
My John Turner had a display room in London which I presume was run by his elder brother Walter. Death information reveals he was a Merchant of Sackville St London d.1776. I have no information if he ever married however your Sarah Turner was earlier than this date so this is no possible lead.
I'm happy to provide you with this families information ... simply send me your email in a PM.
Regards, Rob