RootsChat.Com
General => The Common Room => Topic started by: Maggie. on Wednesday 17 September 08 17:35 BST (UK)
-
Can anybody read what I assume is the occupation of John Nicholson on 2nd line down of this baptism record?
I get - Smith tie*****
Many thanks,
Maggie
-
Well... that didn't work!!!!!!!
How do I get rid of all that black?? Can somebody sort me out please?
Maggie
(original image now removed by me!!)
-
Here it is Maggie:
think he might be a Smith and followed by where he lived or Smith tinman :-\
-
Thanks Gadget - it does look like tin something doesn't it?
-
It was the nearest I could get when enlarged.
What parish was this in? Just in case it was a place name
-
Totherwald, Dumfries
-
I don't see any places/houses on a quick look around the parish. However, there does seem to have been a bit of tin around there so I think I'll go for tinman.
-
Doesn't look like Totherwald but Tinman is definitely a possibility Maggie and Gadget.
I think I've heard of a Smith Tinman before
Kerry
-
Thanks for your help Kerry & Gadget - I am happy to go with Smith Tinman.
Maggie
-
Itinerant??
-
Now there's a thought Adrian - it does look a bit like Itinerant.
However I have checked on the original and there doesn't seem to be a 't' at the end of the word - the word finishes exactly as reproduced above - Smith itineran ???
In fact if it is Itineran(t), what does that make the Smit(h) ?
Maggie
-
There's no i before the tin either - it's just the down stroke of the h :)
-
Same thought Gadget - you posted whilst I was modifying to say the same thing ;D
-
Are there any upper case 'T's on the rest of the page? I'm not convinced by tinman. I think it's more likely to be a place; is it perhaps usual on the page to have the occupation followed by the place?
It might start with 'N' or 'K' - or even 'R'.
I'm leaning towards Roucan, which is a farm in Torthorwald.
Many many people of various occupations there in 1841.
And a Google finds deaths/wills of NICHOLSONs there in the 1700s.
JAP
-
There's an upper case T on the next line JAP - Thos Wilson
I first of all thought it might be Ken something but decided it was tin......
Gadget
Addded - Maggie , do you have any other baptisms/ marriages of this couple where more info might be obtained.
-
I can't make out the word in question...but I don't think it starts with a 't'.
My initial instinct on seeing this was that the occupation was 'smith' and the next word was a place-name.
Is it possible to post a slightly larger view of the register or of a different part of the same page to compare letters?
Jennifer
-
I'll try and enlarge the one that I put up for Maggie
-
Yes, of course there is; I'd even checked out Barbara WILSON, daughter of Thomas in order to find the
year (1787). And had found that, unfortunately, it's one of those online females-only IGI batches.
That upper case 'T' in the WILSON line is, to my eyes, nothing like the first letter of the word
after Smith in the NICHOLSON line.
The more I look at it, the more convinced I am that it is Roucan - but of course I could be wrong.
Maggie, there's a Will for a John NICHOLSON in Roucan, Dumfries Commissary Court, 1815 - might be
worth checking out? (On SP it's listed as Roncan and as Dumfries Sheriff Court).
JAP
-
I had already scanned this before I read Jen's request for a larger view, perhaps it will help - if not I will re-scan a larger bit. It is from a different part of the register, showing the place name of ROUCAN and also an upper case 'T' as JAP requested.
The register mentions place names and occupations but with no consistency. It is also apparent that many of the fathers have two occupations listed.
-
Adjusted :
-
And here's what looks like John's brother in 1789 :)
-
Maggie, there's a Will for a John NICHOLSON in Roucan, Dumfries Commissary Court, 1815 - might be worth checking out?
JAP
Thanks for this info. JAP - good to have. The research I have already done on my Nicholsons seem to indicate that they were in Tinwald and/or Totherwald. The trouble is there seems to be more than one family and I am by no means sure I have them sorted out correctly yet. However I am pretty certain that my gt.x3 grandfather was a Christopher Nicholson of Tinwald who married Helen Jardine of Totherwald.
I feel a trip to Dumfries coming on ;)
-
Maggie
If you're going to the Ewart, I've got a few things that need checking on as well :D
Gadget
-
Given the other evidence to hand 'Roucan' is looking quite good.....
-
Hi All
Coming in a little late in this discussion but the word definitely begins with an 'R' as it matches the 'R' in Richardson the surname a couple of rows below the line in question.
Su
-
I shall bear it in mind Gadget ;D ;D ;D
Thanks for John's brother - I'm not sure I have the right lot of Nicholsons here though.
Here is a scan of what MAY be gt. x 3 grandfather Christopher, which is 1781 register for Mouswald. Where do they live......Cloughbrawborn ??
-
There are some strange place names over there, Maggie ;D
I'll see if I can enhance it and also will have a look at my OS maps :)
is is braid rather than braw?
-
Think it's Cleughbrae followed by born June 19th
Cleughbrae is just north of Mousewald
-
Cleughbrae born................ - I can see it :D.... I am bewildered by place names :-\ :-\ :-\
Is it near Tinwald?
I have to go out now so I will be silent for a bit.
Thanks for all the help - really appreciated :D :-*
-
TRY OOPS
COULD IT BE
LICENCIE
-
Cleughbrae born................ - I can see it :D.... I am bewildered by place names :-\ :-\ :-\
Is it near Tinwald?
I have to go out now so I will be silent for a bit.
Thanks for all the help - really appreciated :D :-*
Here's the location of Cleughbrae, Maggie:
Click for Map (http://www.streetmap.co.uk/newmap.srf?x=304560&y=574960&z=5&sv=304560,574960&st=4&ar=Y&mapp=newmap.srf&searchp=newsearch.srf)
and here's Roucan
Click for Roucan (http://www.streetmap.co.uk/newmap.srf?x=302415&y=577665&z=3&sv=302415,577665&st=4&ar=Y&mapp=newmap.srf&searchp=newsearch.srf)
-
Hi Maggie,
From the Gazetteer for Scotland at:
http://www.geo.ed.ac.uk/scotgaz/towns/townfirst5269.html
Cleughbrae
Dumfries and Galloway
A location in Nithsdale, Dumfries and Galloway, Cleughbrae lies on the A75 road
between Mouswald and Collin, 6 miles (10 km) southeast of Dumfries.
A map site such as streetmap uk at:
http://www.streetmap.co.uk
will show all the places and their relationship to each other (including Roucan).
The Genuki Dumfriesshire Parish map at:
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/sct/DFS/parish_map.html
shows the positions of the parishes of Tinwald (41), Torthorwald (38) and Mouswald (33).
Regards,
JAP
PS: Just to confuse us further, it looks as though there's more than one place called Cleughbrae or similar ...
-
Hey Guys.
Im so lost in here, can someone please tell me how to start a new topic, I want to post a Durham Look up, I managed to post new earlier, but cannot find how to do it again...
Im sooo new to Roots ...lol
Thanks
Ria
-
Hi Ria
No prob :)
Go to :
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/board,12.0.html
and click on New Topic on the top right of the board. Also there's a notice in red on the Index page:
Rootschat FaQs, etc. Click on that and have a read of the links :)
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,207046.0.html
Gadget
-
Hi
Thankyou so much, i;ll get there lol.
Ria
-
:)
Back to Maggie's Nicholson queries ~
Maggie, if you're not sure whether you're descended fom Christopher, why not put a posting up on the Dumfriesshire board with info about who you know that you are descended from. There are a lot of us there with local resources and some of the Dumfries chatters might not see this thread.
Gadget
-
Hi again Maggie,
I guess Christopher of Cleughbrae, Mouswald (son of a Smith or of a mother named SMITH?) might be an older brother of John and William of Roucan, Torthorwald (sons of a Smith).
But, as you say, they might be two quite different families.
And there are certainly pointers in favour of this conclusion.
I see that the Mouswald IGI batch is also (like the Torthorwald one) one of those infuriating batches where only the females have been extracted into the online IGI!
Added to which it is anything but clear whether "Smith" in the Mouswald entry is the occupation of the father John NICHOLSON (Smith) or (as transcribed) the surname (SMITH) of his spouse Mary Ann? It would be good to see some more of the OPR baptism entries.
Children (girls only online) of John NICHOLSON (Smith?) and Mary Ann (SMITH?) in Mouswald are:
Agnes NICKOLSON 1785
Janet NICKOLSON 1787
Mary Ann NICHOLSON 1791
which tends to lead one to the conclusion that this is a different family from the Roucan, Torthorwald one (John in Roucan, Torthorwald being 1787, and Janet in Cleughbrae, Mouswald also being 1787).
Some more OPR entries, and some Wills and MIs might help ...
JAP
PS: If you post on the Dumfries board, it would be a good idea to provide a link to this thread.
-
Mousewald Kirk Sessions index :
http://www.dumgal.gov.uk/HistoricalIndexes/mwlkirksession.aspx
It might well ahve some of yours on it. Ifound quite a lot of useful info from the Dumfries one for my ancestors.
It makes a good read anyway :)
Gadget
-
Sorry for the delay - only just returned to the PC.
Many thanks everybody - there is a lot to consider and read here, but very quickly - good idea Gadget and I will post on the Dumfries board.
But right now I am befuddled with Nicholsons and I haven't had my lunch yet :-\ :-\
Maggie - signing out :)
-
oops here
-
Thanks for the map Oops - now I can visualise where Tinwald is ;D
-
Hi Maggie,
The map which maidmarianoops has copied is the link I gave you earlier as follows:
...
The Genuki Dumfriesshire Parish map at:
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/sct/DFS/parish_map.html
shows the positions of the parishes of Tinwald (41), Torthorwald (38) and Mouswald (33). ...
I am posting the link again in case the Copyright Editor should happen to have any concerns with reproduction of the actual map ;)
Regards,
JAP
-
Hi again Maggie,
You wrote re the Torthorwald page:
...
The register mentions place names and occupations but with no consistency. It is also apparent that many of the fathers have two occupations listed.
Just to satisfy my own curiosity, I had a look at the Torthorwald page.
I actually can't see anywhere where a father has two occupations listed ??? Are you sure of this? The practice seems to be to list occupation and place OR just place.
Also, just to satisfy my own curiosity, I had a look at the Mouswald page where Christopher is recorded. The practice there seems to be entirely consistent i.e. the full names of father and mother are recorded. So it seems almost certain that the parents are John NICHOLSON & Mary Ann SMITH i.e. Smith is a name not an occupation.
Hope this helps!
Cheers,
JAP
-
Hi Jap,
Thank you for your interest.
I have re-examined the Totherwald page and I now agree that I was wrong in thinking some fathers had 2 occupations listed. My concentration is a bit hampered at the moment with a very heavy cold and this, coupled with the unfamiliarity of the place names and indistinct writing, is making reading these registers a bit of a challenge.
I would agree that from the search results I have printed off, it seems common practice to list the mother's name in full, making the mother of Christopher born 1781 Mary Ann Smith. Regarding whether he is the correct Christopher Nicholson is another matter and perhaps a matter for the Dumfries board rather than here.
It is not easy to sort them all out as I am searching 'pay as you go' and can only be selective in whom I look at :-\. Yesterday I found and bought the Will of the Christopher who I am fairly certain is my gt.x 3 grandfather - good to have but it is all too easy to spend the pennies ;)
Maggie
-
Perhaps the occurence of the mother's maiden name on the IGI is because a woman in Scotland NEVER loses her maiden name and can be found recorded twice.
.
It is convenient when researching a surname to find the mother's maiden name if the child is recorded with the father's surname.
Coming late to this thread I would say that the the word after Smith is Roucan? as the pen seems to have given out when the top part of the R was being written.
-
Maggie, I know only too well how very easy it is to spend heaps more than one intends on SP!
Perhaps (on the Dumfriesshire board as you suggest - with a link to this thread) if - once your cold has cleared up - you post all you know about your ancestor Christopher and your links to him (including the main points of the Will you've just downloaded?), someone might have some ideas which will help with your puzzle. I tend to be attracted to deciphering (including old handwriting) threads and I like puzzles so will certainly be looking for this one. If I don't post on any such new thread, it won't mean that I haven't tried - it will be because I've tried but believe that I don't have anything useful to contribute. :'( Best of luck!
Gatacre, The mother's maiden name is not in the online IGI for Christopher NICHOLSON, 1781, Mouswald for one reason and one reason only - because this is one of those infuriating online IGI batches where only the girls were entered so Christopher isn't there at all. If the boys had also been included in the online IGI for Mouswald, his mother's name (her full name - given name & maiden surname) would have been shown simply because it was recorded in the Mouswald OPR.
John NICHOLSON, 1787, also doesn't show in the online Torthorwald IGI. Again because it too is a girls-only batch. But, IF the boys had also been shown in the online IGI, the mother's name wouldn't be there - simply because the mother was not recorded at all (not even her given name) in the Torthorwald OPR.
But you are, of course, entirely right about the persistence of women's maiden names in Scotland (luckily for genealogists) - often women who are obviously married (though relationships weren't shown in 1841) are recorded only by maiden name in the 1841 census, and quite often in later censuses women seem to revert to their maiden name after death of a husband ...
Incidentally, Roucan was identified on the first page of this thread (by moi) and subsequently confirmed; there's really no remaining doubt :)
Regards to all,
JAP
-
Hi JAP and Gatacre,
Thank you again for your interest. Having spent most of yesterday on the IGI looking for Nicholsons, I must next try to make some sort of sense of what I have found!! However, I am biding my time for now whilst I wait for a cousin to get back to me. She did the original reseach on this family many many years ago, before the advent of the internet made it possible to find out such a lot from the comfort of home. She spend many an hour in Dumfries library pouring through the parish records, and visiting graveyards. This was some time before I became interested in family research and at the moment all I have from her is a pedigree tree, which she now tells me is quite possibly incorrect. She has promised me she will consult her files and notes and get back to me, but until then I will hold my fire.
When I have sorted out what info. I have I will certainly post on the Dumfries board.
Thank you for the explanation of the inner workings of the IGI in Scotland and the lack of info. on male children in Mousewald and Totherwald, and thanks to all who have help to sort out the illegible words in those parish records :-\
Regards,
Maggie
-
Dear Maggie,
It's going to be real fun if there are some clues to be found in your puzzles :)
It really is unexpected, isn't it, to find the lack of boys in certain IGI batches. I must say that I was surprised when I found this quirk - but well worth knowing it!!
Anyway, we shall see what you shall see, eh! And hope to be able to help.
All the very very best,
JAP
-
We learn something new everydayand I was not aware of the 'girls only' names on the IGI or the missing boys names. RootsChat is a wondeful source of information.
However the best of luck, Maggie, for your future searching.