RootsChat.Com
Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Free Photo Restoration & Date Old Photographs => Topic started by: Lass on Wednesday 17 September 08 00:13 BST (UK)
-
Hi everyone ;D
I've been fascinated by this section of the forum, you all do such fantastic work and so many of the photo restorations are amazing.
It's likely that I'll be hanging out here for a wee while, if you don't mind, after being presented with 2 old photo albums that my father's had tucked away since my grandmother died. It's just like Christmas for me right now, only better! Unfortunately very few of the photos have names recorded (I know you've all been there!) so I'm trying to suss out who's who.
I have a potential on census showing up as a policeman, then found this pic in the appropriate album - can anyone confirm that I'm right, or is this an army uniform? Thanks in advance! :D
-
a clean from me
Irene
-
Hi Lass
Here's a couple from me. Again, this pic really needs to be rescanned at 300 ppi to retain quality and provide you with a lasting restore and quality print.
Cheers
Caz
-
I'm not an expert in uniforms, but this doesn't look like a policeman's uniform to me - more like a train, tram or bus conductor.
Cheers
Prue
-
So lovely to see him all cleaned up, thank you all! ;D
I have read various posts about scanning on a better resolution, but my old Lexmark doesn't seem to give me an option, I'll try to play with them later tonight again and see if I can figure it out, apologies for any difficulty the present resolution poses.
I've been trying to suss out what his says on his cap, which, I realise now, would suggest that he's not police, but perhaps railway - thanks Prue for that suggestion. It looks to me like it says Kingsway or perhaps Kingsman? Re-scanning at a better resolution might allow you to help me on this further, I wish I was home doing it now, too impatient!
Lass x
-
Hi,
I think this is a railway uniform. Could the location on the bottom of the photo stand for Kirkcaldy, Northern Railway?
mim
-
Hi mim
I believe it says Kirkcaldy, NB, which I assumed was North Britain..... maybe I'm wrong though!
Lass x
-
He could still have been a policeman ..... all of the Railway companies had their own private police forces which later merged and along with the Dock police became British Transport Police.
-
here's a link to a police tunic ... think they always had lots of buttons and a belt
http://www.qcmilitaria.com/polmeds.htm
Haven't looked at yours in close-up yet but are those leather cuffs ?
OK looked now ;D
I'd say the cuffs are leather and it's definitely NR (not NB) on the mount
Rachel
-
Hi,
I think this is a railway uniform. Could the location on the bottom of the photo stand for Kirkcaldy, Northern Railway?
mim
or Northern Region ?
Just found this pic .... (Midland Railway uniform)
No pockets on the jackets but the cap on the right looks similar
http://ingenious.org.uk/See/Transport/Railways/?pageNo=10&s=S1&viewby=images&
Rachel
-
Hi Rachel ;D
Yes, I'm beginning to convince myself it's a Railway uniform of some kind, he has number 22 on his collar - I'm desperate to get home and rescan to see if we can figure out what it says on his cap, because I guess that would probably be very helpful..... and you are indeed correct, leather cuffs! I was very taken with that point too! I have to say that I am fairly convinced that the letters after Kirkcaldy are NB - if you look at the R of KIRKCALDY - the leg of the R kicks out whereas the last letter is rounded at the bottom. I'll double check the original tonight to see if it's maybe just wear/dirt.
I really appreciate everyone's input, thank you so much for your continuing interest :D
Lass x
-
Hi Rachel ;D
I am fairly convinced that the letters after Kirkcaldy are NB - if you look at the R of KIRKCALDY - the leg of the R kicks out whereas the last letter is rounded at the bottom. I'll double check the original tonight to see if it's maybe just wear/dirt.
Lass x
Ooooooo YES .... you're right .... it's not the same as the 'R'
Go home IMMEDIATELY !!!! ;D ;D ;D and tell us what else you can find :D
-
Found some info about the photographer RG Rettie
Robert Gibson Rettie ... trained in Inverness and later Fraserburgh and Stirling ... died in 1925
In May 1884 he bought the photographic studio in Kirkcaldy from John Patrick and by 1894 he had moved to 1, Townsend Place, Kirkcaldy
Googled ... RG Rettie + photographer ;D :D
I was hoping to find out what NB might be :-\
Found a photo with a coloured mount (by googling Robert Gibson Rettie) and that 'B' is quite clear
-
LMAO ;D I wish I could have ran home there and then! Don't worry, couple of hours time and I'll be away, and provided I can sort out the scanning at the right resolution, perhaps I'll have something we can play with!
Thanks for googling the photographer, it's one of those things I meant to do and didn't (smacked hand) so your help is appreciated Rachel!
In the meantime, google has had it's hands full today - I've been looking up all sorts - I started to wonder about the reason for the leather cuffs and can't figure why they might be, any thoughts? I did find an article relating to the Northamptonshire County Constabulary (unlikely but not impossible I guess) which suggested that the uniform would be similar:
"Early 1900s - early 1950s
Tunics still high necked with numbers on collar, but now have two breast pockets. No belt and only five buttons. The double peaked caps continued in use until the end of the Great War, but after that helmets became the only headgear for Constables and Sergeants, although a different style of helmet, similar to the one in use today, wad adopted. The small badge previously on the front of the caps, however, is retained for the helmet. Inspectors and above wear flat caps similar to today, but still had different tunics."
I need to check, but I suspect this might be a bit late for this picture?
Come on time, pass, I want to go home!!
Lass x
-
Hi,
I think you are right about the N B and as you say probably stands for North Britain.
I found something about the North British Railway at:
http://www.answers.com/North%20British%20Railway
mim
-
Good Evening!
I haven't done a rescan yet, but in the meantime we've taken a very bright light and a magnifying glass to the picture - I am 99.9% certain that the wording on his cap reads 'Motorman'....... doesn't help me much, but might mean something to somebody else??
Hope to be back soon with rescanned pic.
Lass x
-
Evening all ;D
Finally got time to sit down and rescan all the pics from this particular album. So here's my chap in high quality 300dpi.
Thanks for all your help and thoughts so far.
Lass x
-
Hi
Could he have Been a Railway Worker ? ie Engine Driver Ect
Hope this Helps
Regards
Iria
-
Hi Iria
I've just found the time to google the 'Motorman' that I believe is on his cap, dictionary definition coming up as:
an operator of a motor-driven vehicle (as a streetcar or subway train)
also this article:
If the farm laborer is comparing his nominal rate of money wages with the similar rate of the motorman or conductor of the electric railway who lives in the city, he must take into consideration the less costly living that he gets on the farm
These seem like American sources, but it would appear to be a tram-like vehicle?
Lass x
-
I apologise, I have a habit of posting before I find everything I'm looking for!
National Library of Scotland have records pertaining to: CARTERS: Dep.174. records of Scottish Commercial Motormen's Union and predecessor bodies (Scottish Carters' Association and Scottish Horse and Motormen's Association), 1890-1966.
Interesting stuff, I'll pop in to occupations to pursue this further, thanks for everyone's thoughts.
Lass x
-
Hi Lass
Its Quite Possible he was a Tram Driver ..My Husbands Gt Grandfather Used to be one in approx 1905-1910 ..in Liverpool ...Sadly i have No photo's of Him in His Uniform
Regards
Iria
-
Hi again Iria ;D
Unfortunately I don't know precisely who this chap is, but as he's been found in an album of my great, great grandparents and their children, I am presuming he is one of the boys. I'm having a hassle tracking them down on the census which would help me tie up where he might have been - I have no idea whether Kirkcaldy was his place of residence at the time, or if he was visiting etc when the photo was taken. I've posted on the Occupations forum, but I have suggested that I think the photo might be 1900 or slightly later, what do you think?
Lass x
-
Hi Lass
I would date the Photo Between 1898 to Approx 1910 .. this give's a few years here and there ..Hope you Find out about the Pic
Regards
Iria
-
Hi folks.
Although the jacket (tunic) is similar in many respects to a police one, the leather cuffs and absence of epaulettes strongly suggest it is NOT police. The buttons also look to be blank, and the "whistle" chain would seem to be far too long to be such - doubtless a watchchain, and maybe the ornament in the centre of it is a Union token of some description.
The hat too is of a non-police style. All in all, someone with authority (possibly rail but more likely tram) but not a "bobby". Tram staff would interact more with the public, I can certainly recall bus drivers and clippies (conductresses) wearing similar uniform - albeit not high-collar - in the 1960's.
KIrkcaldy appears to have had tram cars - google "kirkcaldy tram"
N.B. (North Britain) was the preferred alternative in those days to "Scotland", especially so far as photgraphers were concerned. It also need less space, thereby the town name could be larger!
Hope this helps
Dave
-
He must have been a motorman for the NBR (North British Railway) in Kirkcaldy.
The North British Railway operated the Kirkcaldy & District Railway Co. out of Kirkcaldy around 1883-1895. It was formerly the Seafield Dock and Railway Co. and was later taken over by the London North Eastern Railway Co. in 1923. A. Dick and James Smith were porters for the NBR out of Kirkcaldy in 1908 and 1900 respectively.
Found this article on the btp.police.uk/History site which describes the NBR policeman's uniform. There is a photo on the site of an NBR policeman - the uniform he wears is similar in button and collar style but his hat is different than your guy and he doesn't have the leather cuffs. Hope this helps a bit.
Karen
a. NORTH BRITISH
Accompanying Butcher's articles in the BTP Journal in the 1970s is a photograph of a North British Railway Police officer. The image would appear to relate to the period around the turn of the century although the precise date and identity of the officer is unknown.
The officer is wearing a uniform which is virtually identical to 'home office' police of the time - a high-neck tunic with 6 buttons and two breast pockets. The button design is not discernible but an educated guess suggests it comprises the entwined script initials NBR.
The epaulettes are devoid of any insignia, probably because the force would not have been entitled to wear a Crown there. The lack of numerals there is because the officer's identity number appears on the high-collar. The 'collar dog' is of the key-hole design, once much favoured by police in Scotland's central belt.
Normally this was of white metal construction, with metal letters (the force initials) soldered into the pointed part, and the officer's numerals soldered in the circular portion. The NBR police appear to have taken ideas from many different forces in designing their collar insignia. The 'collar dog' is embroidered, and the force initials, NBR, are also embroidered, and seem to be of a different thread.
Interestingly the initials are not block capitals but fancy script, although they appear clearly one after the other and not entwined one on the other as done by Fife, Inverness-shire and many other Forces of the time. Perhaps the need for clarity and ease of identification was the reason. Aberdeen City Police had a similar device, although in metal, again probably due to the fact that three rather than two letters were being used. The numeral, 9, does however look as though it might be of metal rather than bullion thread.
The officer is wearing a tshako cap, a felt-covered cardboard-strengthened pill-box hat with a peak, of a style popular at the time due to its use by the British Army in Africa. The cap band is woven black with presumably a fancy pattern, of a similar style to that recently used by the Scottish SPCA.
This style of hat came into use around the turn of the century, at a time when Scottish forces were seeking a (cheap) replacement for the fancy helmets worn in the reign of Victoria. Her death meant that the ornate helmet badges, usually incorporating the Victorian Crown, had to be replaced and the expense and hassle of getting new badges with the Tudor (King's) Crown was reason for a selection of different hats and caps being taken into service around Scotland.
The joy of the tshako was that it called for only a small badge, and many forces simply put the collar insignia on it as a badge, and it looked the part superbly (and cheaply!!)
The NBR seemed to have copied the trend, and the script initials (again apparently embroidered) appear on the officer's cap. This cap device appears identical to that in the collar badge. A contemporary photograph in the author's possession, of a group of rail staff (along with an Inverness-shire Constabulary officer) at a North British Station, shows rail staff wearing exactly the same NBR hat badge as the policeman in the BTP Journal.
The station staff photograph - suggested as being Mallaig - comprises four NBR staff, two other gentlemen in civilian clothing, and the Inverness-shire Constable. Of the four obvious railwaymen, the two men seated in the front wear tshako-type caps but much smaller than the police style - which the County Policeman happens to be wearing, which is very convenient for purposes of comparison.
Both these men have the script NBR as hat badges, but none of the rail staff have high-neck tunics. Of the 'managers' (standing) one wears a flattened form of tshako with what appears to be the letters NBR (but in block capitals) in a laurel wreath and no other obvious insignia. The other has a form of tshako - but more akin to the Japanese army jungle cap - with lettering (possibly 'Foreman') thereon.
Of interest is that he wears a collar and tie, and a jacket with script NBR on the lapels. Obviously the script NBR was standard issue, but high-neck collars appear to have been solely for police. It would appear therefore that standard police uniform and standard rail insignia were merged when it came to the NBR police.
-
David thanks so much for your comments, it certainly helps clarify that our chap isn't a policeman - and now with the help of Karen, it looks pretty certain that he was a railway man and quite possible that he did indeed work/live around Kirkcaldy, thanks Karen for your help! Now all I have to do is put a name to his face!
Much appreciated folks, I'll be bugging you all in this forum for a wee while with the 24 pics I scanned from this album, so please forgive my enthusiasm and - most likely - many posts for dating and restoration ;D
Lass x
-
I do not think the NBR (North British Railway) operated trams. They were usually run by a separate company, either the Town/City Council or a private company. In the case of Kirkcaldy, the Kirkcaldy Corporation Tramways seems to have been authorised by the passing of a Bill which went through Parliament in 1899.
see: http://www.fifetoday.co.uk/CustomPages/CustomPage.aspx?PageID=17694 for details of the opening (fascinating)
Kirkcaldy Corporation Tramways: opened 28 Feb 1903 closed 15 May 1931
http://www.lrta.org/hh/hhlist11.html
The large size of the undertaking explains why the man in the photo had an ID number of his uniform.
Hope this helps
Dave (from Fife stock)
-
Hi Dave of Fife stock ;D
Thanks for that information, it certainly does help, and what a fascinating link on the trams!
Lass x