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Research in Other Countries => Europe => Topic started by: anner on Monday 15 September 08 21:16 BST (UK)
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I wonder if anyone can point me in a direction that could be of use. I am rying to find a site that deals with bmd in Russia, I am trying to find birth certs for Hyman Joseph ostrofsky and his wife Millie Gralnick. Both these people were Jewish and were sneaked out and to England sometime after their births, 1901 and 1905ish. There is a family story that they had been smuggled out and as Millie was very young her mother was told to keep her very quiet or she would give them away.
Hyman and Millie married in Hendon in 1926, and their surname changed to Osterley during the 2WW. Unfortunately their is no one to ask anymore about what happened.
What I wanted to know is if there are any sites that I could get their birth certificates from, or to look up siblings etc.
many thanks in advance.
Anne
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Hi Try.
http://www.familysearch.org/
go to advanced search then just put in the surname,there is a ancestral file on there,click on and go to submitters,the name and address is usa,they might not be there now but worth a try.
Joyce
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hi Put in Hyman Ostrofsky in the search engine,came up woth Ostrofsky Genealogy forum,interesting reading,seems on the surface to tie in with the IGI records,said Maurice had a older brother called Hyman.
Joyce
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Hi Joyce,
I had looked at that too, the only problem being that Maurice would have to be the older brother Hyman was born in 1901ish. I think that Hyman had a brother samuel and a sister Annie (from what I was told) and I have found an Annie born in England so I am ordering her certificate. These Ostrofsky's lived in Hendon in London.
Hyman went by the name Joseph and he was quite big in the Jews in London and I have googled him under this name and it make intersting reading, from when Churchill was Prime Minister.
Many thanks for your ideas though all help is appreciated. p.s. I was just told about Anne and Samuel.
Anne
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http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/ shows the index of Hyman's naturalisation information from 1927. A copy of this record should give you quite a lot of information about him.
It is also worth getting the marriage certificate, to see the names of their fathers and any witnesses, you might be able to find their family members in the UK also. freebmd.rootsweb.com shows other possible members of these families in London.
http://www.jeffreymaynard.com/LSyn31LR.htm - meanwhile this shows a J. Ostrofsky as an official at Old Castle Street Synagogue in 1931.
http://www.gazettes-online.co.uk/ - has a mention of Hyman at the time of his naturalisation - his occupation is 'Secretary of Registered Friendly and Approved Society'
The Times, Thursday, Oct 26, 1933; pg. 4; Issue 46585; col E
- Osterley, Hyman Joseph, passed the bar examination at Gray's Inn (Criminal Law and Procedure)
The Times, Tuesday, Nov 19, 1935; pg. 5; Issue 47225; col G
- list of those called to the bar, includes H. J. Osterley, LLB, University of London (Gray's Inn)
So it seems he changed his name a bit earlier than WWII - possibly when he entered law school.
ETA: Have you tried having a look at the Jewish Chronicle archives?
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Hi Jorose, What a star you are. Yes that is Hyman. I have just spoken to his grand daughter and she said he was eventually quite a big man in the synagogue and held the key for many years. The only thing I think strange is on the NA Naturalisation it states Liverpool. I know that he married in 1923 in Mile end old town, London. Still people did move about. Unfortunately his Nationalisation is closed for 100 years, so I wont be able to download it.
I am going to order his marraige certificate as well, and as you say it will give his fathers name as well as Millies father as well.
Thank you so much for your help.
Anne
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Sorry I meant to say that he changed his surname to Osterley about the time of WW2, not his forename. His son was born Allan Ostrofsky, and it too was changed to Osterley as well.
Anne
Also can I be really thick and ask how you get into the Times as I cant seem to find anything.
Anne
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i,m afraid i,m tired and cant get the url right but two useful sites,one is a database similar to igi,put in traceing jewish roots in the search engine and you will find them.very informative.
lots in Free bmd from 1800,s but none on census,s?
lastly
Norah ostrofsky born 1898 died Brighton 1986,vol 18.page442/reg 386 if you dont know her and send for death cert,i obtained my picture here of my dad aged two,from a cousin by seeing who registered it and contacted them.
Joyce
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Hello Anne,
As practising Jews, Hyman and Millie would have sought a marriage authorisation from the Chief Rabbi. This document in English and Hebrew should state both their places of birth. The one I have from 1880 certainly does, although earlier ones do not.
Contact the United Synagogue (www.theus.org.uk), they should have a copy in their archives.
Regarding Hyman's naturalization papers I would recommend that you email or phone the NA explain the situation and ask for access - they can only say no.
Once you have established the birth places then the fun really starts. How's your Russian? I believe that a large number of records have survived form that era, but you'll need some expert advice. There must be near to a 100 people researching Ostrofsky from Russia, Ukraine, Belraus or Poland via JewishGen. Gralnick or variants throws up a similar number of researchers.
I'm quite excited.
Justin
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Hi Joyce,
I have put in tracing jewish roots and a lot of sites come up. Have had a bit of a trawl through but have to go out in a bit. If you could post the link it would be really helpful as i cant find any bmd. Again thankyou for your help. You are very kind.
regards
Anne.
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Hi Justin,
Thanks for your input. I am going to contact the United Synagogue today. I am new to researching this side of things and get a bit lost on what to do. But I will certainly try that.
As for my Russian, non existant. I am also going to get in contact with the NA and as you say they can only say no, nothing lost nothing gained.
I joined the JewishGen yesteryday, and still get lost on there, but will have another go when I get back.
I know that Hymen is Russian, so at least that is a start, but where in Russia I have no idea.
This is turning out to be a real mission now.
Regards
Anne.
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Anne,
Another JewishGen database contains the following:
Hyman Joseph Osterley died on 20 Oct 1975. He is buried in plot S3-107 in the Kinson cemetery (near Bournemouth).
Millie died on 10 Nov 1976. She is buried next to him in plot S3-106.
There appears to be Reform Jewish section.
:o
Justin
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Anne,
Jews in the Russian Empire were only permitted to settle in the Pale of Settlement.
See this link:
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/pale.html
Justin
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Hi Justin,
Where do you find info like that, it was amazing to see what the pale was.
I do have the info about Hyman and Millies deaths and from what I have been told, Millie couldnt live without Hyman and basically died from a broken heart. True romance. I also now have Hymans parents, Hilleil and Esther. (not sure if thats the right way to spell Hilleil), so off to look for them. Again from what I have been told Hymans parents then went on to Isreal with their other son and daughter. So now going to try to find out about them as well.
Millies father was Abraham, and I am going to look for his death in England as they came over as a family.
Anne.
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Anne,
You've set off down a fascinating road of discovery.
Hyman's father's name is most often translierated as Hileyl. It is a biblical name from Judges 12:13
Justin
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Hi Justin,
i have just found out that Hyman was born in Krivarog Russia and Millie was born in Odessa. Just waiting now for another call with more info.
Your right this is so fascinating. I never realised how fascinating this would be and always dreaded it. Now I am totally hooked.
Anne
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How ever did you manage to find that out so quickly?
Krivoy Rog ?
One in Russia at 52 deg 43' N 35 deg 20' E
Two in the Ukraine (formerly part of Russian empire):
46 deg 25' N 34 deg 15' E
and 47 deg 55' N 33 deg 21' E (aka Kryvyy Rih in Ukrainian, c200km NE of Odessa)
The last one had a large Jewish population!
Justin
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Hi Justin,
it was with a stroke of luck to find that last bit of info. I spoke to Hymans grand daughter and she had a look though her things that she had been left, lo and behold she found Hymans naturalisation documents and it stated where he was born.
Now I have just to break into the next generation. Going to be really hard I can tell. :(.
Regards
Anne
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hello Anne
I too am looking for my family roots, my name is Paul Osterley. Getting in touch with you because my grand parents were called Hyman Joseph Ostrofsky(a judge) and Millie Gralnick. My fathers name was Harold he had a brother Allan, both born in Stepney. Is there a connection or are my wires crossed?? I also had two sisters, Anne and Joanna who I've lost contact with for the last 30 years and am now trying to find
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Hi Convent.
Yes its one and the same family, I will send you a private message.
Regards
Anne.
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Anne and Paul,
Are the Ostrofksy families in Mile End in the 1911 census in any way related to your family?
Could the 48-year-old Esther Ostrofsky be Hyman's mother?
Justin
Any luck with Jewishgen yet, Anne?
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Hi Anne ...WoW
Thankyou.
Paul/convent
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Hi JustinL,
Yes Esther is certainly is Hymens mother, i looked them up as soon as the 1911 came online.
Paul, Tami is over the moon that she is in touch.
Regards
Anne
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Have you found the father's death registration then?
Justin
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I just received today the death certificate for my great-grandfather, Marks (Mordechai) Spielman. The informant is listed as one (L?) Gralnick - son-in-law. Marks had 2 daughters (as well as a bunch of sons including my grandfather, Pincus). The daughters were Annie and Sophie. Sophie, probably married a Lewis Israel in 1911 so the wife of Gralnick was probably Annie, unless it was a second marriage for Sophie. I came across this Gralnick chat when I googled 'gralnick' to see what would pop up. Is this the same family do you think?
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Hello Gloria,
It's possible of course.
Can you tell us more about this Spielman family - dates and places?
Justin
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Sure. Marks and Leah Spielman were born in Russia - Poland. They had 7 living children (3 that died). My grandfather Pincus, b 1894, Sophie, Harry,Myer, and Jack. There are 2 Annie's listed on the 1911 census as daughters a 25 year old and a 13 year old. Also a two year old Ikey. It's possible that Ikey belonged to the older Annie who may have been a daughter in law or other relative and not a daughter. My grandfather was born in Ostroleka, Poland (Russia). My grandmother, his wife, was Fanny Fishman. I received some certificates today, including what I believe is probably the marriage cert for Sophie who married a Louis Israel in 1911 in Est London Synagogue. The Gralnick (Possibly first name beg. with the letter L - writing not clear) was listed on Marks death certiificate as a son in law. The family all lived in the East End of London.
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Hello Gloria,
Thanks for that.
It does look likely that Millie and L? were related.
Do you by any chance have a subscription for The Jewish Chronicle (I don't)? A search in their archives throws up the name Lewis Gralnick several times. The only other Gralnick is Mille. Without a subscription, it is not possible to read the full entry.
I assume that you already knew that Marks and Leah are buried in the Edmonton cemetery.
Justin
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Wow ... I looked again and I'm sure the initial is L, so maybe it is Lewis.
No, I don't have a subscription to the JC but I'll see what I can come up with. I'm planning a visit to Edmonton Cemetry when I come to England next month.
Will keep you posted.
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I think I know someone who has a subscription. Fingers crossed.
Justin
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Crossing fingers! Thank you very much indeed. I did try entering "Lewis Gralnick" into the JC archive but nothing came up .... odd
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Sorry - that's what happens when you're rushing. I entered the info into the JC search not the archives. As you said there seem to be several entries for 'Lewish Gralnick'. I think this is the family I"m looking for ...
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Hi Gloria I am just waiting on a phone call to be able to confirm Annie and Millie being related, but i think they are and will have to find the notes I made.
Justin, I am still waiting to hear if anyone has the fathers death registration but will certainly let you know when I hear.
Regards
Anner
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Hi Anne,
Just tried to send you a personal message, hope you got it.
Paul (convent)
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Anner,
Whose father do you mean? Hyman J Osterley's?
What Gloria really needs is the marriage registration for Lewis Gralnick and Annie Spielman. I assume it was between 1911 (census) and early 1916 (daughter born in Q4).
Justin
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Something else to follow up is the GURALNICK family also of London, headed by Israel. Although his daughter, Milly, was born in London in 1900, I cannot find them in the 1901 census.
I wonder, did they too come from Odesa?
Justin
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The JC reported the death of Sophie Gralnick, wife of Lewis, on 22 Sep 1972. Lewis died on 10 May 1974. Children and grandchildren were mentioned.
I wasn't expecting that. Maybe Sophie had been widowed and Lewis G. was her second husband.
Or maybe Louis Israel and Lewis Gralnick are the same person.
Gloria - do you have the marriage cert for Sophie S. from 1911?
Justin
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Annie - thanks. I'll wait for the results of the phone call.
Justin - yes, I got the marriage cert for Sophie yesterday!
24 Dec. 1911
Husband - Louis\Lewis Israel - age 24 - address: 4 Lewis (lots of lewis's here!)Buildings, Adelina Grove - father (deceased) Israel Israel
Sophie - age 20 - same address listed as above, father Mordecai Spielman (I knew my ggrandfather was called Marks so Mordecai could well have been his heb name. occupation: musician. Marks is listed on the census as a violin player. Wedding took place at East London synagogue.
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Hi, I see this is quite an old post, but I have just started researching and I am wondering if this is the same Lewis and Sophie who were my great grandparents - had 2 daughters Hetty and Gertrude. Did you find out any more information about them?
Thanks
Adam
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Hi Adam,
Sounds interesting. I don't have any more information about Lewis and Sophie's offspring but I'd like to talk to you. I did track down a descendant of another brother since this post and have some other info about that branch.
Might be easier to communicate via email. I had to resubscribe under a different email to write to you. gspiel@netvision.net.il
Looking forward to hearing from you.
Gloria
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don't think this was mentioned earlier
while waiting for naturalization docus for relatives who came over before WW1 ask at local govt office. if they had an alien registration document
these sometimes have a photo
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Thank You Brigidmac. I didn't know that. Interesting. Not sure what you mean by local govt. office. Perhaps the national archives would have them?
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I meant the records office my great grandad was a travelling sales man but as he was in 1911 census in Wales I requested info from South Glamorgan the certificate we got was dated 1918 very detailed date place of birth from Russia and photo
And it lists all his address changes during war
We learnt that He was actually arrested in 1916 for being an alien without the necessary papers
The newspape report said he had identity papers but couldn't convince police that place of birth Courland was in Russia
Poor man ! That's probably why he went and obtained a better one .