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Research in Other Countries => Europe => Topic started by: auntie mandy on Sunday 14 September 08 21:24 BST (UK)
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Help - I' ve hit a brick wall and have no idea where to start.
My G grandfather, Frederick Young was born in Chanbattia, East India in 1881 - (IGI and census records)
I have a copy of his brother's birth certificate, Henry William Francis Young born in Cardiff on the 28th May 1886, the parents are listed as Philip Young and Mary Hoffeld.
From the census records both Philip and Mary were born in Germany. (C1901 Philip was an army pensioner).
Philip Young born 1836 in Rothselburg, Germany
Mary Hoffeld born 1846 in Vulernaison, Germany
I do know that the name Young was adapted to 'sound more british' and could possibly have been Jung.
I have found a record of the birth of Philip Jung 12th January 1836 - Rothselberg, Pfalz, Bayen (IGI).
Does anyone out there know how to go about looking and purchasing birth certificates for German ancestors and German's born in India ?
also
Why did German people emigrate to India at that time ?
Any help would be most welcome.
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Hello,
I cannot offer any help on the India side of things.
Are the birthplaces you cited for Philip and Mary from the 1901 census? Was Philip a naturalized British subject?
Rothselberg is probably Philip's birthplace, but Vulernaison does not exist. Can you post that part of the image to this forum?
There was no civil registration in Germany in the 1830s or 40s. You will need to locate the parish records (Kirchenbuecher). To do that you will need to know the exact parish in the town as well as the denomination. Not easy!
It would seem very likely that the surname was changed fom Jung to Young - a straightforward translation. However, do you have any concrete evidence for this?
Justin
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Hi Justin
I have attached the 1891 census which gives Philip and Mary's birth place.
My mother told the story that the family originally came from Germany and changed the name to sound more English. India came as a total surprise.
Sorry do not know if Philip became a british citizen.
Thank you for your help
Regards
Mandy
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Hi Justin (again)
I have just copied and pasted the 1891 transciption of the census page from ancestry.
This lists Philip as being born in Rothselbury, Germany,
and Mary as bring born in Vulernaison, Germany.
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???
Mandy
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Hello Mandy,
I might have guessed, it was a poor transcription. However, Mary's birth place is not obvious to me either.
It appears to end -marsow. The -ow ending on place names is not uncommon in north-eastern Germany. It could also have been -marsau, but the census enumerator did not know how to spell it.
The English V sound is equivalent to the German W. Maybe the place started Wohl?
Wohlmersow - Wohlmarsau ????
Maybe Berlin Bob can enlist the help of the folks at Ahnen und Wappen.
I checked the 1901 census and notice that Philip and Mary gave their birth places as 'Germany BS', i.e. British subjects born in Germany. There have been a couple of other recent posts on this theme. I did not follow them through to their conclusion. You should perhaps.
Rothselburg must be Rothselburg about 20km NW of the west German city of Kaiserslautern in Rheinland-Pfalz. Looks like our friends the Mormons microfilmed the Lutheran (protestant) records film no. 0597010.
Justin
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Hi Justin
I just googled Wohlmersow and Wohlmarsau and the response it gave was "did you mean Walmart" :D (it did make me chuckle).
Thanks for your help, all of my research to date has been in England and Wales, so this is completely new to me. (I didn't know BS meant British Subject ).
Mandy
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I have been on The National Archives site, ( :o all evening :o ) i've searched naturalisation records, army service records for Jung and Young.
I've also been on the British Library records of births (India Office) and searched for each of the childrens names.
??? (I have found absolutely nothing ) ???
I think I should go to bed now and try again tomorrow - perhaps it's me and I'm tired and not doing it properly. :-\
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I have been given the information that Philip was in the 40th Regiment ??? ???
Unfortunately I don't know anything esle :'( :'(
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Hello Mandy,
That might be something like 40th Regiment of Foot.
You might like to start a parallel topic on the armed forces board.
Often when someone has become a British Subject through naturalization the acronym NBS will appear in the census records.
Philip and Mary appear to have been British by birth. I'm sure there was a similar topic on this board recently.
Justin
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just a thought
if he was in the army he may have been in the Indian army records of which you will find at the British Library in London
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Hi everyone
I have just booked a place on a trip to the national archives, I hope to find Philip's military record whilst I am there.
Thank you all for your help and advice, it has been invaluable.
Mandy
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if he was born overbroad but was a Birtish Subject then you can search the Brtions Abroad BMD index
if he became a British Subject then possibly he was naturalised but maybe not, my grandfather was not naturalised because of the cost
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Hi Mandy,
as to the place name of "Vulneraison". There is no "i" in the word, the dot is bleeding through from the back. I read this quite accurate handwriting as "Vulcmarsen", which may correspond to D-34471 VOLKMARSEN.
Most Hoffelds live in and around MERZIG, some also in Westphalia and other scattered locaations. You can check that by entering Hoffeld in the website telefonbuch.de
best regards and goog success! Let me know if this turns out to be correct.
frifra
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Hi Frifra
"Vulneraison" has proved to be a big problem.
Thank you for your help, I will keep you updated.
regards
Mandy
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Hi everyone
I have just received the birth certificate for my Great Grandfather Frederick Young.
His father is listed as Philip Young, Bandsman of the 40th Regiment of Foot.
I would like to thank everyone for the help and suggestions, which were all most appreciated.
Regards
Squeaky
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Hi,
It may be interesting to have a closer look at your Jung ancestor's profession - especially in India, and before he went there. In his generation, many young men did not see any future in their traditional agricultural occupation- too many children in the families, not enough land - and turned to music-making, formed brass bands and travelled the world („Wandermusikanten“). Especially people from the Western Palatinate, hundreds of young men from Rothselberg, Jettenbach and Essweiler earned good money as travelling musicians; many went to England or Scotland for the season and returned home for the winter. Others made it to Australia, China, India, Russia, the US and South America. The finest homes in these villages at the end of the 19th century were those of musicians. A considerable number of them never returned home, but stayed in foreign countries, - not always as musicians, but also worked there in other kinds of trades. There is a musicians’ museum within the castle of Lichtenberg near Kusel which displays a collection of the names of all those Palatine musicians who asked for a seasonal passport to travel abroad.
Good luck in your further search
Friedrich Hüttenberger
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Hi,
in the book of Rothselberg families, which I have currently at home - loaned from a library - there are 4 further generations of your Jung male line ancestors. Interested in these data? If so, please tell me.
best regards
frifra
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Hi Frifra
I would be very interested in the data.
Sorry for the delay in contacting you.
best wishes
Mandy
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Have just come across frifra's post above which I find very interesting.
My great-grandfather left the Palatine region c1884 when he was about 15 years to play the clarinet in a band along with several cousins and other boys from his village. They travelled to America and played all summer and into the autumn. In exchange for playing the boys were given room and board and also money which was to be sent back home to their families. At the end of the season the man in charge took off and they later discovered no money had ever been sent back home. Fortunately my great-grandfather's oldest brother was already in America and able to help him find a job to earn some money.
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Hi Everyone
I would like to thank you for taking the time to read my story, and for all the help and advice which have proved invaluable.
Just to let you know what I have found - last week I visited the National Archives in Kew - I was lucky and found My GG GF Philip Young's army records.
He enlisted in the British Army, 96th Regiment on the 19/02/1859, in Warwick, England, he listed his place of birth as Chippin Norton, Oxfordshire, England - under distinctive marks was written "none - speaks broken english". !!!! He was 23 years old, 5 feet 6 and a quarter inch tall, with dark brown hair, hazel eyes and a sallow complexion.
He married Anne Maria Hoffield (Hoffeld) on the 10th May 1865, in Grahams Town, South Africa, where he was stationed between 1863 and 1865.
He landed in India on 01/01/1866, he transferred to 40th of Foot Regiment on 01/09/1873, where he was stationed until 1883. When he then returned to england and was discharged on 13/02/1883.
So far I have found a possible nine children - 7 born in India and 2 born in Cardiff, Wales.
It looks like he never became a british subject legally - as he lied on his enlistment.
My only question now is his wife - ANNE MARIA HOFFELD (Hoffield) - was she actually German and living in South Africa or was she South African?
Thanks again for all of you help.
Mandy
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Hi Mandy,
your GGGF did not lie about his age: in Feb 1859 he had just turned 23 (born 12.1.1839), he had lied about his origin/nationality in order to be able to enlist.
The question is, why he stayed in England in wintertime(!!). Usually travelling musicians returned home in autumn to practise new tunes in winter for the coming season.
But he stayed in England and looked for a job with a regular income. Why? Did he already know his future wife ? The note "Volkmarsen" in the census hints at her German origin, - which would be a natural choice for a young man who speaks but broken English.
Unfortunately I had to give the Rothselberg book back before I read your message, but here are some notes I took:
Philipp Jung was the youngest of 7 children, three of whom survived:
1. Johannes Jung *1820 Rothselberg
2. Catharina Jung *1828 R., married in Jettenbach in 1857
3. Philipp Jung *12.1.1836 R.
his parents:
Johannes Jung (*2.7.1786) and Elisabeth Mohr from Kreimbach on the Lauter
grandparents:
Nikolaus Jung (*30.2.1756) and Maria Magdalena Jung(*3.2.1761)
Adam Mohr and Catharina Cassel from Niedereisenbach
greatgrandparents Jung:
Nicolaus Jung(*1714 calculated) and Anna Catharina Rech from Erzenhausen
(Nic's second marriage in 1752, - his first had been in 1736)
GGGfather: Wilhelm Jung
Regards
Frifra