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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Fife => Topic started by: grada on Saturday 13 September 08 14:12 BST (UK)
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Hi All
Can anyone help with birth details for Elizabeth Henderson?daughter of John Henderson and Janet Allan. I know she married Alexander Davie 18/11/1846 in Auchterderran Fife, and died not long after giving birth to her youngest son in 1871 in Dalgety Fife. I think her parents married in Kinfauns Perth.
Any help would be welcome
Grada
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hi grada
i see scotlandspeople death details has a birth year c1827
ev
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Hi Grada and Ev
Elizabeth Henderson is showing Auchterderran as her birth place in 1861/71. Can't see anything for her birth in the OPRs unfortunately. This looks like Elizabeth and family in 1841 - everyone showing as born in the County apart from John Snr.:
John Henderson 47, coal miner, b. Scotland
Janet Henderson 37
Elizabeth Henderson 15
Henry Henderson 12
James Henderson 10
Catherine Henderson 8
John Henderson 6
Janet Henderson 4
Philip Henderson 1
John Paton 40
Address: Easter Sough, Abbotshall
Monica :)
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Hi grada, ev and Monica
I'm not sure which Elizabeth Henderson is the right one ???
1851 Census for Elizabeth & husband Alexander shows her birthplace as Auchterderran:
Parish: Burntisland; ED: 1B; Page: 6; Line: 8; Roll: 674
Address: Stanhouse, Burntisland, Fife
Alexander Davie, Head 25 (c1826) Ag Lab, born Aberdour
Elizabeth Wife 26 (c1825) born Auchterderran
George, Son, 4 (c1847) born Aberdour
Alexr, Son 1 (c1850) born Auchertool
Mary Watson 11 servant born Ireland
There's an Elizabeth born c1827 in Abbotshall, married to a Robert Davie and showing in the 1871/81 censuses, who may be the same as the one you posted, Monica. (Just to annoy us!!!)
The 1851 census for father John and wife Janet has sons John & Philip still at home, but for some reason Janet is listed on Ancestry as Janet Ramsay - I can't see the image to check!
I'll post the details....
Gaie
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1851 Census
Parish: Kinglassie; ED: 1; Page: 9; HS: 33; Line: 2
Cluny Bridge, Kinlassie, Fife
John Henderson Head 57 (c1794) Coal Miner born Ducketland, Perth (can't find that on the map!)
Janet Ramsay Wife 47 (c1804) Coal Miner Wife, born Markinch, Fife
James Son 20 (c1831) Coal Miner born Auchterderran, Fife
John Son 16 (c1835) Coal Miner, born Auchterderran, Fife
Philip Son 11 (c1840) Scholar, born Auchterderran, Fife
Well, that's more helpful in that the brothers are shown as being born in Auchterderran as well :) :)
Perhaps someone can look at the image to see why Janet is transcribed as "Ramsay"?
Kind regards
Gaie
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I'm confused too Gaie :P
The only OPR entry showing for that 1851 entry you posted DOES show the mother Janet as Ramsey:
JAMES HENDERSON Birth: 05 OCT 1830 Auchterderran, Fife, Scotland
Parents: JOHN HENDERSON and JANET RAMSAY
There is also a submitted entry for an Elizabeth Henderson b. 1826 in Abbotshall to these parents (strikes me someone has possibly taken this from the 1841 census family I posted). There are other submitted entries for some of the other children with mother as Ramsay.
Might be worthwhile Grada you looking at the 1855 birth cert for Janet born 08 APR 1855 Kinghorn. The first year of official reg in Scotland and certs ran over two pages of the register with a wealth of extra info. For birth certs, it should include where and when parents married and where they were born and their ages. Also details of the number of children they'd had to then, alive or deceased.
Monica
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There are two deaths showing, one for a Janet Allan Henderson (1874) and also Janet Ramsay Henderson (1882).
The husbands, John, occupations: Coal miner (husband of Janet Ramsay) and Boot maker (husband of Janet Allan).
Grada, with Elizabeth's early death in 1871, what was the occupation of her father John and did he and mother Janet show as alive or deceased?
Elizabeth's DC clearly says Allan for mother, just trying to work forward before going back to try and find her family. Her birth certainly doesn't show unfortunately, regardless of what we have discussed regarding mother Allan/Ramsay.
Monica
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There are extracted marriage entries for a John HENDERSON & a Janet ALLAN in the IGI - 8 Mar 1812 Kinnoul Perth and 20 Mar 1812 Kinfauns Perth. But are these the parents of Elizabeth (HENDERSON) DAVIE?
I don't see a marriage in the IGI for an Alexander DAVIE & an Elizabeth HENDERSON ca 1846. But there are the following children in Fife to a couple of those names:
George 1846 Aberdour
Andrew 1853 Kinghorn
Janet 1855 Kinghorn
William 1858 Burntisland
James 1864 Dalgety
Female 1866 Burntisland
Betsey 1868 Burntisland
Charles 1871 Dalgety
If George is the first son, then this might suggest that Alexander DAVIE could be the Alexander, son of George DAVIE and Janet KINNELL who married 1822 in Aberdour ...
George & Janet had:
James 1823
Alexander 1825
George 1827
William 1829
Janet 1831
Mary 1834
Christian Elder 1836
Helen 1839
Charles 1841
Andrew Wilkie 1843
John 1846
Sorry if all this is well-known already :) - but at least it sorts it out in my mind.
Cheers,
JAP
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And George & Janet in the 1841 on FreeCEN at Cullets Woods, Aberdour are the following DAVIEs, all b Fife - George 40 Ag Lab, Janet 35, William 10, Janet 8, Mary 6, Christian 4, Helen 2
JAP
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Hi All,
On the birth certificate of Elizabeth's youngest son Charles, it has her marriage to Alexander Davie being on the 11th or 18th of Nov 1846 at Auchterderran. On her death certificate she died aged 44, 4 weeks after giving birth. Her father is John Henderson outdoor labourer deceased and it has her mother as Janet Allan deceased.
Alexander remarried Jane Wallace in 1872 at Aberdour Fife.
You are right Jap, Alexander Davie was the son of George Davie and Janet Kinnell, I have a lot of information on the Kinnell and Davie lines but Janet is my stumbling block.
I'll have to keep trying,
Thanks everyone for your help
Grada
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This looks like a better fit in 1841 for Elizabeth Henderson with her family. Everyone showing as born in the county apart from mother Janet:
John Henderson 55, agri. lab.
Janet Henderson 55, b. Scotland
Betsy Henderson 16
Livinia Henderson 12
Robert Aitken 3
Address: Craig-end, Auchterderran
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Mother Janet and Lavinia daughter in 1851:
Janet Allan 64, b. Kinnoul Perth
Levinia Red Henderson 22 agri. lab., b. Auchterderran
Robert Aitken 13, grandson, b. Auchterderran
Address: West Strathore Cottage, Dysart Fife
A likely marriage for Levinia to a David Dick on 17 NOV 1856 Cramond, Midlothian (their marriage cert. will let you confirm parents and whether they were alive/ deceased, although likely father John had died by 1851). Also the birth of a daughter, Janet DICK, on 1 SEP 1857 in Auchtertool.
Monica
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Hi Monica,
Thank you for all your effort, its looks like you may have found them for me. I forgot to mention that Elizabeth was known as Betsy. I will check marriage for Livinia as you suggest and see what I find.
Thanks again
Regards Grada
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I have checked the marriage certificate for Livinia Henderson and David Dick,as suggested, and it has her parents as John Henderson and Janet Allan both deceased, the same as Elizabeth's. I then checked the details for the child Robert Aitken who was mentioned in the 1841 census,and it has his parents as Margaret Henderson and Alexander Aitken, Margaret was a daughter of John Henderson and Janet Allan also. Then went on the lds igi index and found the birth details of six siblings to Margaret Henderson,they where all born in Denny Stirling Scotland. I have still not found the birth of Elizabeth and Livinia even though I tried Scotlandspeople, no luck there. I now believe that Elizabeth was the daughter of John Henderson and Janet Allan who married in Denny Stirling on 1st April 1803, and that she was the sister of Margaret.
After about two years of trying, with help from people on here I think I've finally cracked it(hopefully). A big thank you
Grada
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That's great Grada, I'm pleased you found confirmation. Good luck with everything :)
Monica
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Good news, Grada!
I'd noted down those Denny STI people but decided not to post them :'( as the names are not uncommon ...
And there's still a need for further confirmation that John HENDERSON & Janet ALLAN who m in Denny STI in 1803 are the right parents rather than John HENDERSON & Janet ALLAN who have marriage entries in Kinnoul and Kinfauns PER in 1812 ... (especially as your Janet has birthplace as Kinnoul in the 1851; and as births for Lavinia and Elizabeth haven't been found).
Just in case it helps anyone (especially Monica who always finds things!) here's what I noted down but didn't post.
John HENDERSON (father John HENDERSON) m Janet ALLAN 1 Apr 1803, Denny STI (there's also an LDS submission giving the place as Falkirk).
Probable children of the Denny couple from the IGI:?
John bap 19 Feb 1804 Denny STI
Janet bap 22 Sep 1805 Denny STI
Margaret bap 14 Aug 1807 Denny STI (d 1857 a/c an LDS submission)
Agnes bap 5 Jun 1811 Denny STI (m John BENNIE a/c an LDS submission)
Christian bap 23 May 1813 Denny STI
Robert bap 3 Sep 1815 Denny STI
James b 15 May 1821 Denny STI
Thomas b 12 Mar 1823 Kilsyth STI (or might he belong to the next couple?)
Probable children of John HENDERSON & Janet ALLAN (who have 1812 marriage entries in Kinnoul/Kinfauns) from the IGI:?
Janet Forrester bap 26 Feb 1813, Forteviot PER
John b 14, bap 21 Aug 1814 Forteviot PER
Alexander b 26 Jun 1816 Rhynd PER
It would be good to find out Margaret (HENDERSON) AITKEN's age; that should be a good indicator ...
From FreeCEN, we find in the 1841 in Cramond Midlothian the following at Dowies Mill:
AITKEN Alex'r 28 Paper Maker
AITKEN Thomas 25 Paper Maker
AITKEN Marg't 26
AITKEN Alison 1
All b Midlothian.
{IGI has, for Alexander AITKEN & Margaret HENDERSON, children Alison bap Oct 1839, Thomas bap May 1843, Elizabeth bap Dec 1845, and Robert bap Sep 1848 - all Cramond, MDL}
So this would give a birth year for Margaret (HENDERSON) AITKEN of 1815 - which suggests she might be a child of the Perthshire, rather than the Stirlingshire, couple? And thus that Elizabeth (Betsey) too is a child of the Perthshire couple ...
More work to be done?
JAP
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And something else I looked up yesterday was Janet's 1855 birth - not a lot of help.
Janet DAVIE b 1855 Kinghorn; father Alexander DAVIE Farm Servant 27 b Calaloe, Aberdour; mother Betsey DAVIE ms HENDERSON, her 5th child, 28 b Woodend, Auchterderran; married 1845 Pitcairn, Aberdour; 3 boys living, 1 boy dead.
Might be worth searching the pre-1855 Fife deaths CD ...
JAP
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Just to tie things up ...
It looks as though Margaret HENDERSON, daughter of the Denny couple, married a Matthew WATSON and died in Denny STI in 1857 ...
{IGI has for this couple extracted entries for children Janet b 1831 Barony LKS: Isabella bap 1834, Margaret bap 1838, Jean Gardner bap 1841, John bap 1843 all Denny STI - there are also some LDS submissions for marriage and children}
So we're sort of back to scratch in trying to find out more about the couple who were the parents of Betsey HENDERSON who m Alexander DAVIE, and of Margaret HENDERSON who m Alexander AITKEN, and of Lavinia HENDERSON ...
JAP
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JAP, I agree with you. I think Elizabeth's parents were v. likely to be the couple who married in Kinnoul and Kinfauns PER in 1812 (likely banns with the Kinnoul entry relating to where Janet Allan was from?).
I'm not so sure that the Robert Aitken, age 3, who shows as living with Janet Allan in 1841 was the son of the Alexander Aitken and Margaret Henderson who show in Cramond Midlothian in 1841. They married in Crammond in 1838 and first born is looking like the daughter Alison in 1839. Margaret Aitken, wife, doesn't show in 1851 and may have died. Alexander and three of the children who show for them on IGI are still living in Cramond in 1851.
Just checked IGI, there is a birth of a Margaret Henderson in 1815 Cramond to a Robert H and an Alison Smith which seems a strong possibility for this Margaret.
Can't easily see a birth entry for young Robert Aitken, to see name of mother though.
Grada, as JAP suggested, might be worthwhile you posting on the thread for pre 1855 deaths here on RootsChat www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,309872.0.html to see whether anything shows for John Henderson and Janet Allan.
Monica
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Hi Monica,
I knew you'd come up with the goods!!
Unfortunately I don't have the appropriate sub to get census info.
I guess we'll get there eventually ;D
Cheers,
JAP
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Figured out who Robert Aitken, grandson, was :D
Son of a Robert Aitken, mason, and Janet Henderson (both deceased by the time of his marriage). He married a Catherine Bisset in 1858 in Kinghorn Fife.
Children showing to them:
1. ROBERT AITKEN Birth: 31 OCT 1859 Kinglassie
2. MARGARET AITKEN Birth: 16 MAR 1863 Kirkcaldy
3. THOMAS BISSET AITKEN Birth: 16 NOV 1865 Kirkcaldy
4. JANET HENDERSON AITKEN Birth: 19 FEB 1868 Kirkcaldy
5. CATHERINE KINNELL AITKEN Birth: 20 OCT 1871 Kirkcaldy
6. ELLEN KINNELL AITKEN Birth: 20 OCT 1873 Kirkcaldy
Robert and new wife Catherine are living in Kirkcaldy in 1861. Robert a railway carter, b. Auchterderran
Monica
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Robert A and Janet Henderson show as married on 10 FEB 1838 in Auchterderran. I wonder if they died that soon after their marriage and birth of son Robert :'(
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Sort of interesting that before the Craig End, Auchterderran HENDERSON household in 1841 are 3 households at Woodend. And after it is a household at Craig End of an Andrew HENDERSON, age 60, Ag Lab, b Fife.
JAP
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Fife CD:
Robert Aitken kinglassie
d.9/2/1851 bur/12/2/1851 age 82
Mason Palsy OPR440-4
who else are you seeking?
Diddy
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I'm glad you picked this up Diddy :)
Grada is looking at death details if there are any for a John Henderson and wife Janet Allan. This is the only entry we have for John, from 1841:
John Henderson 55, agri. lab.
Janet Henderson 55, b. Scotland
Betsy Henderson 16
Livinia Henderson 12
Robert Aitken 3
Address: Craig-end, Auchterderran
Wife Janet Allan looks to have died 1851-5 - we have her and younger daughter then:
Janet Allan 64, b. Kinnoul Perth
Levinia Red Henderson 22 agri. lab., b. Auchterderran
Robert Aitken 13, grandson, b. Auchterderran
Address: West Strathore Cottage, Dysart Fife
Many thanks.
Monica :)
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JAP
The Andrew Henderson, age 60, in Craigend Auchterderran 1841, can't see him in 1851. There are a handful of Andrews in his age range but going by occupations, can't connect to that entry in 1841 unfortunately :-\
Monica
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sorry,posted this earlier then it froze!!
loads of John hendersons but no obvious matches re dates / names. try this:
john henderson d/28/8/1850 age 70 Abbottshall. OPR 399-7
also:
Janet Allan Dysart bur 8/7/1855 d. of benjamin Allan (seaman)
DystDLR CH2-390
or:
Janet Allan bur.27/11/1858 Dysart, St Clairtown DystDLR CH2 -390
Diddy
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Thanks Diddy :) Can't see a death on SP in Dysart (or in fact anywhere in Scotland) for a Janet Allan in 1855 - and that's with wildcards :-\ Given that Dysart was where Janet Allan Henderson showed as living in 1851, I wonder if there is a connection.
Monica :)
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Hi All,
I'm thinking that Robert AITKEN who d Kinglassie, aged 80, in Feb 1851 might be Robert b 1769 in Kinglassie, son of George. Unfortunately, the 1841 Kinglassie census was lost en route to Edinburgh ...
Children b Kinglassie with father Robert AITKEN were George 1793, Janet 1795, Margaret 1801, Robert 1807, Isabel 1810, and John 1813.
So Robert AITKEN who m Janet HENDERSON in 1838 in Auchterderran might be the Robert b 1807 in Kinglassie... Which would make sense for them naming their first son Robert ...
But all these names are such common names that it's impossible to know ... Grada, you can probably knock out some of these people by a process of elimination but it could be expensive ::)
It's an interesting puzzle.
JAP
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hi everyone to gada the bivri discs show the following children born to john henderson and janet allan
john b. feb 3 1804 chr. feb 19 1804
janet b sept 3 1805 chr sept 22 1805
margaret b july 25 1807 chr aug. 14 1807
agnes b apr 4 1811 chr june 6 1811
christian b apr 3 1813 chr may 23 1813
robert b aug 17 1815 chr sept 3 1815
james b apr 2 1821 chr may 15 1821
all of the above children born and christened in denny stirlingshire
thomas b march 12 1823 in kilsyth stirlingshire
are these part of the family you are researching? the dates fit with your john and janets marriage however there are some large gaps between some of the children. beans
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Hello beans,
We've been down a few dead-ends on this thread!
Unfortunately, the Denny Stirlingshire family was one of those dead-ends ...
grada is looking for the John HENDERSON & Janet ALLAN who were the parents of Elizabeth/Betsey (HENDERSON) DAVIE.
Betsey was born ca 1825 (no birth/baptism record in the IGI - other sources indicate year and also place as Woodend, Auchterderran), married Alexander DAVIE (no record in the IGI - bc of their 5th child Janet in 1855 says marr 1845 Pitcairn, Aberdour and of their last child Charles says marr 1846 Auchterderran), and died 1871 Dalgety.
Current thinking is that they are the John HENDERSON & Janet ALLAN who have IGI marriage entries in 1812 in Kinnoul PER and Kinfauns PER. Janet's age and birthplace from 1851 census indicates that she was born 1787 Kinnoul.
Some possible early children of this John HENDERSON & Janet ALLAN are in the IGI (see reply #15). And Monica posted 1841 and 1851 census entries at replies #10 and #11 which mention Betsy b ca 1825 and another daughter Livinia/Levinia b ca 1829 Auchterderran. Also another possible daughter is mentioned at reply #21 - Janet jnr, mother of Janet snr's grandson Robert AITKEN; Janet jnr married Robert AITKEN in 1838 so might be the Janet Forrester HENDERSON bap 1813 Forteviot PER ...
JAP
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Hi All,
I have requested a look up of pre-1855 Fife deaths as suggested,fingers crossed. I found Woodend Rd, in Auchterderran at the weekend. Will be going back for another look soon.
Grada
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I did reply to this request on this thread -post 26. i have also noted this reply on the Fife CD thread.
No point repeating ourselves!!
Diddy
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Sorry Diddy, seemed to have missed your post the first time.
Thanks Grada