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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Worcestershire => England => Worcestershire Lookup Requests => Topic started by: Firehorse on Saturday 13 September 08 03:28 BST (UK)
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Hello,
I've found a marriage on FreeBMD for Susannah PITT in 1840 in Upton Upon Severn....trouble is, I can't determine the correct spouse (either from the IGI or census details/clues after the year of marriage) :-X. Would anyone have available parish records for Upton upon Severn and kindly do a look up to help decide which of the following men married my Susannah Pitt:
James HARNETT :-\
William WALKER :-[
Henry WALL ???
Any help with this would be great and appreciated!
Best wishes,
Jilly ;D
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Just to make life more complicated the registration district Upton upon Severn covers a large area - not just Upton on Severn. Do you have any clues as to where Susannah was born as she may have married at her local church.
netti
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Hi Netti,
This really throws things off as Susannah was born in Pembridge, Herefordshire in 1820. The family moved to Upton before 1828.
All I know for sure is that the family had moved to Upton and were living centrally in Old Street (the high street of Upton) around 1837. By 1841, Susannah had flown the nest and most likely married (if the marriage record for Upton Upon Severn is hers), but I can't seem to locate her married on the censuses with either of the possible spouses listed. :-\
Thanks for responding to my message, Netti,
Best wishes,
Jilly
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Upton on Severn marriages are on the IGI and although Pitts were married there, no sign of Susannah.
So the marriage you found was elsewhere. You could get the certificate but if you're like me you save those purchases for the important ones!
Have you tried "matching up" the other couples on the freebmd list to at least narrow it down a bit?
netti
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Hi Netti,
No I haven't tried that yet, but it may come to that.
As you say, it's too hit and miss to order the certificate. It's hard to say where she went once she flew the nest. I did find a Susannah Pitt in 1841 at HO107 425 9 Page 3 in Ledbury, Herefordshire, aged 20, a female servant, and born in the county. Hard to say if she went back to Herefordshire and if this is even her.
I'm sure she'll 'turn up' sooner or later....somehow!!
Thanks for your help! ;D
Jilly
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Hello, I'm not sure if you are local, but Ledbury to Upton is only a few miles over the Worcs- Herefordshire border. It is quite possible for your Pitt to have moved between the two.
I am from the family of Upton Pitts, but I have no Susannah in my tree yet. How does he fit in? Do you know who her parents were?
Neil
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I am having the same sort of trouble with my family, the trouble is that the area is close to Gloucestershire, Herefordshire and Worcestershire and the boundries have changed many times.
You need to take a look at the surrounding areas.
A worth while place to start is here.
Parish Register Transcripts
Deerhurst, Forthampton & Eldersfield.)
(for some reason I cannot show the link.
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I am very interested in the Pitt family in Old St Upton-on severn. In the 1901 census Ann hemming was living in Old St with her nephew James Pitt. Ann hemming's father was William Pitt and she married William hemming. By 1901 she was 67 and widowed and working as a seamstress according to the kelly's directory. My interest in her is that my mother's mother was called Annie Hemming, gave birth to her in 1905 in Old St Upton but was obviously not the Ann Hemming I've been able to trace. My mother was then adopted by Blanche Fowler- also of Old St and her natural mother disappeared. I am wondering if there is a Pitt/hemming link or indeed if anyone else knows anything about Upton hemmings particularly Annie.
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Hello and thanks for replying to my post. My computer was freezing and crashing :'(for a while and so I wasn't able to reply to your posts at all, but now I have a new computer and am trying to catch up with everything. I will reply in due course about the Pitts of Upton upon Severn.
Sorry for the big delay, but watch this space!
Jilly
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Hi Jilly
Re Susannah Pitt
I am researching , from England, a family in Australia.
There is a Elizabeth Mirriam Walker who married a John Koetsveld in Daylesford Victoria in October 1863. On the marriage cert, I am told, she gives her father as William Walker, a carpenter, and her mother as Susan Pitt. Elizabeth said she was born in Welland Worcestershire which is in the Upton on Severn registration district. I am also told that she died in 1927 aged 88 which would put her birth around 1839.
I have in the last few days sent for the marriage cert. for the Susannah Pitt you mentioned in 1840, this being the only thing on free BMD which has the William Walker and a Susannah Pitt on the same page. I haven't been able to find any trace of the couple in the 1841 or 1851 censuses, so I'm not sure that they are a "couple". I will let you know what happens. The GRO haven't come back and said that the two names are not a "couple" so far. Expecting the cert , might be Saturday or early next week.
Have you found anything more on Susanna Pitt since 2008?
Eric
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Hello Eric, Thanks for your message regarding Susannah Pitt. I must admit I haven't got any further on Susannah and the Pitt family since my computer crashed a while back and then life took over as it does when you try to family tree. :-\ I'm still very interested, though, to follow the line, though I hit several brick walls with the Pitts and thought that if I stopped looking for a bit with a view to coming back to it, things might emerge when I look again with fresher eyes.
I'm very interested in what you have found regarding the Australian line! The Susannah/Walker marriage sounds very promising and I'm glad that you have sent for the marriage certificate. It would be great if this is the correct Susannah especially if they emigrated to Australia.
I don't think that I mentioned in my previous posts about my Susannah Pitt's parents. They were Henry Pitt b. 1782 d. Jul. 31 1837 (shopkeeper) (not sure whether he was born Worcestershire, Herefordshire or even Leicestershire, though I have tried to look for records of his birth which are inconclusive.) He married Grace Woodcock 27 June 1806 in Gilmorton, Leicestershire. Grace was born 1786 Gilmorton, Leics and died 1859 in Upton.
Henry Pitt's and Grace Woodcock's children were as follows:
Sarah Pitt b. 1807 Gilmorton Leics.
Mary Ann Pitt b. 1808 Gilmorton, Leics.
William Woodcock Pitt b. 1813 All Saints, Hereford, Hereford
Elizabeth Pitt b. 1818 " " " "
Susannah Pitt b. 1820 Pembridge, Herefordshire **I'm working off the assumption (if) she married around 1840-ish and if she did who was it to??**
Emma Pitt b. 1822 " "
Sophia Matilda Pitt b. 1824 " "
Henry Pitt b.c. 1827 Upton Upon Severn, Worcs. **(my Gx2 Grandfather)
Harriet Maria Pitt b. 1829 Upton Upon Severn, Worcs.
As you can see, the family migrated between these three counties.
Anyway, thanks again for contacting me and it would be great to hear back from you pending the results of the marriage certificate.
Kind regards, ;D
Jilly
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Hi Jilly
Just to say that we have a post strike so I haven't got the marriage cert. yet. Will let you have details as soon as I get them.
A bit of a wild shot, but do you have anyone named Olrenshaw, in the family?
Message from Australia suggests that an old family story!!! has Elizabeth Mirriam Walker living with an aunt named Olrenshaw in Coventry as a child!!!!
You know what family stories can be!!!!!
regards
Eric
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Hi Jilly
The marriage cert. has arrived!!!!!!
Good news I think!!
August 24th 1840 Parish Church of Powick in the county of Worcester.
William Walker of age bach carpenter residence Blockhouse Worcester
father Charles Walker cabinet maker
Susannah Pitt of age spin residence Worcester St Martins
father Henry Pitt (no occupation given)
witnesses Esther Barritt & Grace Pitt
certainly appears to be the right lady for you and the right marriage for me!!"!!!!!!!! Would you like a photocopy?
an elated Eric
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Hello Jilly
Just to tell you I have today found William & Susannah Walker in the 1841 census. They were living as lodgers in a house in Union Place Tewkesbury, Gloucestershire. Presumably William was working there as a carpenter.
HO 107 380 5 5
But there was no Elizabeth Mirriam with them, so perhaps she was not quite as old as she said in her marriage cert. in Australia.
regards
Eric
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Hello Jilly
I have been searching for the Elizabeth Miriam Walker who claimed her parents were William Walker and Susannah Pitt for a long while and I thought you would be interested in this.
I sent you details of a marriage between William Walker and Susan Pitt in 1841.
IThe web site I use for census data has now uploaded the 1851 census for Worcestershire and I find this:--
Susan Feild head age 31 seamstress born Pembridge Herefordshire
Elizabeth Pitt daughter aged 8 born Worcestershire.
Feild spelling as on census return!
The Susannah Pitt, daughter of Henry and Grace was born in 1820 in Pembridge, so this appears to be the same lady who married William Walker!!!!!
There is a birth registration on the GRO and a baptism on Family search for Elizabeth Pitt daughter of Susannah Pitt.
Haven't sorted this out properly but it looks as though William Walker either died or disappeared and Susannah reverted to her maiden name and then marrried someone named Field, but he wasn't at home on census night.
There is a Michael Field working as an ostler in a coaching inn in Worcester in 1851.
If I make any more progress I'll let you know.
regards
Eric
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Hello Eric, That's brilliant! ;D Well done for finding that and thanks for letting me know! I checked on my census website and they had Elizabeth's last name down as 'Pett' and not 'Pitt'. Spelling of Susan's name was 'Feild'.
I looked for a marriage and found a Michael Henley Field on the same page as Susan Pitt for 1850 December Quarter, Worcestershire Vol. 18. So this could very well be the Michael Field that you had noted elsewhere in the 1851.
So, as you say, it looks like William Walker perhaps died or left and Susan reverted back to 'Pitt'.
I'm going to take a look to see if there's more I can find.
Thanks again!
Jill
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Hi again Eric, Did Susan Pitt go over to Australia or did Elizabeth Miriam Walker go alone? Is there a possibility Susan died before Elizabeth emigrated? I can't pinpoint a death for Susan. - Jilly
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Eric,
I've just checked on the 1861 Census to try to find Elizabeth Pitt and found this entry:
RG9, Piece 2014, Folio 22, Page 1
Walsall, Staffordshire
Ann WALKER, Head, Wid., 62, Seamstress, Cheshire, Macclesfield
Louisa Osbourne, Lodger, Unmar., 20, Staffordshire, Walsall
Elizabeth PITT, Lodger, Unmar., 23, Dressmaker, Worcester, Worcestershire
I can't be certain it is the correct Elizabeth, but the age seems to match and, of course, the location of birth. Another thing to note is that Elizabeth's mother was a seamstress and it notes Elizabeth as being a dressmaker. I wonder if Ann Walker could be a relative of William Walker???
Let me know what you think, or am I barking up the wrong 'tree'?!
Jilly
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Hi Jilly
Its all very difficult as there was at least one other Elizabeth Pitt born in Worcestershire. She is with grandparents name Bennett in 1841 &1851 and was born in 1838/9. I had thought this was the Elizabeth we were looking for at one stage. This could be the one you found. I think the Elizabeth we want could have been in or on her way to Australia in 1861. She married Jan van Koetsveld in October 1863 but had had a son earlier that year.
Just to confuse things even more she said on his birth cert that his father was William Walker!!! and she was Elizabeth Pitt!!!!! and the child was born in Victoria. The child was killed when about 13 years old in an accident with a cart, but on his death cert he is named Koetsveld, so Jan must have accepted him into the family.
I still haven't found any record of her entry into Australia. I am wondering if she added a few years to her age, to enable her to get to Australia perhaps as an assisted immigrant. So I don't know whether her mother went with her. There doesn't seem to be any mention of her mother in the family stories from Australia. She might have gone as a servant with another family, possibly under their name?????
I have sent for the possible certificate for the Field/Pitt marriage and for the birth cert for the Elizabeth Pitt in 1845, and will let you have details as soon as I get them. (probably about 7 - days)
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Hi Eric, I will look forward to hearing about the results of the two certificates. Hopefully the marriage entry shows that Susannah Pitt and Michael Field are a couple - fingers crossed! - and that the Elizabeth Pitt birth in 1845 is also correct.
Thanks for the additional details, though they are very complicated with all the name changes. I'm not sure why William Walker was named as the father of the son who tragically died. Elizabeth is definitely a mystery woman and it makes me want to find out more. There doesn't seem to be any way to really determine if the 1861 census is in fact the Elizabeth in question and of course the birth of that particular Elizabeth would have her born about 1838. Maybe it is purely coincidence that she is residing with a 'Walker'. Hard to say, unless of course we can link William Walker to Macclesfield, Cheshire or Staffordshire and as a relative to this Ann Walker!
I also checked for any possible details on the passenger lists to Australia, but her name wasn't coming up, although on one database there was an entry for an Elizabeth Pitt (no age mentioned) going over there on the 'Light of the Age' vessel in 1855, arriving at Sydney and/or Newcastle which was listed on the NSW Gvt. State Records site. This entry was under the assisted immigrant section. I should go back and see if there was a Susannah/Susan Pitt/Field/Walker mentioned.....
I also did a quick check of the newspapers archives website to see if there were any names mentioned or clues, but wasn't successful. There was a lot of mention about Albert Edward Koetsveld, a police inspector. He was her son, wasn't he?
Anyway, I'll look forward to any more findings you might have and thanks again!
Jilly
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Hi Jilly,
I have now received the copy of the marriage cert. that I sent for. This shows that a Michael Henley Field, bachelor, groom (horse) married Susan Pitt on 14 November 1850 in the CATHOLIC chapel! in the district of Worcester. Susan's father's name is given as Henry Pitt. This together with the details in the 1851 census, of her age and place of birth, make it reasonably certain that she is the same lady!!! that married William Walker in 1840.
The only discrepancy I could see was that in this latest marriage she gave her father's occupation as "farmer", but many small farmers had a second string to their bow. In neither certs does she add "deceased"
The birth cert I sent for, for the daughter Elizabeth Pitt shown in the 1851 census, was not the right Elizabeth Pitt.
No wonder Elizabeth Miriam was confused about her name etc!!!!!!!! Her supposed mother seems to have set a good example!!!!! I need to look further for the birth cert of the right Elizabeth, but we still have her baptism.
Why did Susan revert to her maiden name? Presumably William Walker died, sometime between 1840 and 1850, probably before 1846 when Elizabeth Pitt was baptised. There was no divorce at that time for ordinary people, it had to be by an act of Parliament.
The other possibility is that William and Susan had separated. In such cases it was not that unusual for one or both of the couple to marry again, and live bigamously.
Elizabeth may have been born a year or two before her baptism in 1846. Baptism was usually done within a month or two of birth but there are occasions when it was delayed for several years.
I had another look at the immigrant ships arriving in Victoria around 1860. I found one with an Elizabeth Platt, but there is no way of knowing whether this was a transcription error. One thing struck me was that this boat, the Shackamanon had some 350 passengers, of which over 300 were females and most of the ones I looked at were in their early 20s and had assisted passages, presumably an attempt to boost the female population of Australia. I am guessing here but I would think that there would be a lower age limit to get assisted passage, and perhaps Elizabeth added a few years to her age to get a passage.
Yes, Albert Edward was quite a senior police officer in Melbourne.
regards
Eric
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Hi Eric, Thank you for letting me know the details of the marriage certificate of Michael Henley Field and Susan Pitt. Susan's father, Henry Pitt, would have definitely been dead at the time of their marriage in 1850, though I guess they could have left the 'deceased' part out. Incidentally, I have his death details as follows (not sure if I have given these to you):
1837: District of Upton upon Severn, County of Worcester
July 31st in the Old Street, Henry Pitt, 55 years, Shopkeeper, Constipation of the bowel, Grace Pitt wife of deceased living or residing in Old Street Upton. Reg. August 3, 1837.
According to Pigot's 1828/29 Trade Directory Henry Pitt was the innkeeper of the Red Cow in Old Street. So adding the profession of farmer to shopkeepr and innkeeper isn't such a stretch I suppose.
It is a shame that Elizabeth Pitt's birth certificate didn't match up. Which Elizabeth Pitt certificate did you order, so that I can eliminate that one. It's a shame that with a middle name such as Miriam, it doesn't readily show up on the list of births! There is also a marriage record for her marriage to John which states the middle name as Marian, isn't there?
I've looked around to find more information and even Michael Henley Field's details don't come up, so another mystery there. Looking for a death for a Susan/Susannah Field shows inconclusive results.
The Elizabeth Pitt I found who was an assisted passage I later found out to be someone totally unrelated with a different family.
For the son that Elizabeth Pitt/Walker had who died young and was taken under the name/wing of Elizabeth's husband, John Korsveld, can you tell me what year/month he was born exactly and how long before their marriage in Oct 1863.
Elizabeth and Susannah are definitely mystery women! I'm going to keep searching though.
Thanks again for the details!
Best wishes,
Jilly
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A genealogy bulletin board for Upton upon Severn is on the Genealogy menu at http://www.upton.uk.net.
A direct link is http://www.upton.uk.net/phpbb3/index.php and if you search on 'Pitt', quite a few people are researching the name.
Jackie
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Is anyone able to find a marriage between William Hill and Ann (surname unknown) in Upton Upon Severn about 1810-1812. Their first child, Richard, was born in Upton Upon Severn in 1812.
Helen
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Hi There
I have taken the body of my posting away as it was typed in error - I mistook Upton on Sever for Severn Stoke SORRY it was a senior moment
All the very best
Phil :-X
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Hi Phil,
Oh dear! Got my hopes up there for a few minutes. Never mind, maybe somene else will reply.
Helen