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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Monmouthshire => Topic started by: Malcolm173 on Thursday 11 September 08 15:49 BST (UK)
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Hi
I’m trying to find more information about an Alfred Pope who married Kate Dunstan (my mother’s great aunt) in Pillgwenlly on 18 July 1877. The marriage certificate gives his age as 30 (so birth year around 1847) and his occupation was a clerk. It states that he was a widower. His father’s name was John, who was a clerk in the civil service.
The only other records I have are the censuses for 1881 and 1901, which give Alfred’s birth place as Bermuda. In 1881 Alfred was living with Kate and their two children, Leonora and Alfred, in Cardiff. His occupation was shipbroker. In 1901 (can’t find them in 1891) the family were still in Cardiff (now with a third child, Caroline) and Alfred’s occupation was Foreign Traveller, Coals.
I would be grateful for any more information about Alfred, including his previous marriage and his parents.
Many thanks if you can help
Malcolm
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Hi
I don't know if you have found your Alfred Pope but I came across the following. Is it a coincidence? His age seems to be out but maybe it was given by someone else. His mother was fairly old when he was born.
1871 census for 61 St John's Street, Bridgewater Somerset
Alfred Pope 29 Linen Draper b W I Bermuda
Martha J Pope 30 Wife b Portsmouth Hants
Alfred Pope 2 years 6 months b Bridgewater Somerset
Ernest Pope 1 year 2 months b Bridgewater Somerset
Elizabeth Pope 74 Mother Widow Annuitant b Portsmouth Hants
Hannah Ballan 13 Servant
RG10; Piece: 2388; Folio: 5; Page: 1
Couldn't find him in Enland 1881 census.
This could be the marriage but she is not Martha J
Marriages Mar 1863
GOOD Martha Emma Portsea 2b 471
POPE Alfred Portsea 2B 471
PURDUE Eleanor Portsea 2b 471
SLIGHT Augustus Portsea 2b 471
Wendy
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Hi Wendy
This is very interesting but I don't know quite what to make of it because some facts fit and others don't! There could be two Alfred Popes who were born in Bermuda around the same time but that does seem to be too much of a coincidence. Your one would have been born around 1842 and a very helpful lady in Bermuda sent me an extract from a book listing church registrations there which has this:
Pope, Alfred – father: John – mother: Elizabeth – baptism: 1841 Aug 15- age 4 weeks old – St. George’s Parish
So that fits your one. Ours should have been born around 1847.
Our Alfred Pope married in 1877 and was a widower, so it is possible that he was the one who was married to Martha previously. However the children don't match because in the 1881 census our Alfred had two children - Leonora aged 2 and Alfred aged 1. Also his occupations were completely different to linen draper!
I will have to study all this more closely. Thank you very much for looking into it for me, it's certainly given me something to think about!
Malcolm
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Hi Malcolm
Yes, I did wonder what happened to the children. So I checked the 1881 and found the following at 10 Hambrook Street Portsea
Martha J. Pope Head Marr 40
Amy M. Pope 17 Pupil Teacher
Alfred T. Pope 12
Ernest J. Pope 11
Frank Pope 9
Sophia Good 38 Sister
RG11; Piece: 1158; Folio: 36; Page: 22 & 23
Her sister is unmarried so that ties in with the marriage I found. No sign of Alfred and Martha is the Head. So he wasn't yours.
Wendy
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Hi Wendy
Yes you're right, and Martha was obviously still alive then anyway!
Never mind, it was certainly worth checking and many thanks for taking the trouble to have a look.
Malcolm
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I’ve been looking at the records for Alfred Pope once again, after a gap of twelve years since I first posted the above messages, and I’m wondering now whether the Alfred Pope who married my great, great aunt Kate Dunstan in 1877 could be the same person as the one Wendy posted information about, who married Martha Good in 1863.
I’ve collated the two sets of records to compare the timelines (attached), expecting to find clashes, but it seems possible that they could be the same person, even though some details don’t match - like his apparent year of birth and his occupation.
It would be a bit of a scandal if they were the same person, so it’s probably best if the things they have in common (name, born in Bermuda, father’s name) are just coincidences! I’d be grateful for any suggestions as to how to prove or disprove it either way.
If it helps to see the records I’ve used to compare the two, I've included a link at the bottom of the table I've attached.
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Hi Malcolm
Yes, I did wonder what happened to the children. So I checked the 1881 and found the following at 10 Hambrook Street Portsea
Martha J. Pope Head Marr 40
Amy M. Pope 17 Pupil Teacher
Alfred T. Pope 12
Ernest J. Pope 11
Frank Pope 9
Sophia Good 38 Sister
RG11; Piece: 1158; Folio: 36; Page: 22 & 23
Her sister is unmarried so that ties in with the marriage I found. No sign of Alfred and Martha is the Head. So he wasn't yours.
Wendy
Saturday, Mar. 21, 1863
Publication: Hampshire/Portsmouth Telegraph (Leeds, England)Issue: 3311
POPE-GOOD-On the 10th instant, at Milton Church, by the Rev W. H. Redknapp, Mr. Alfred Pope, of Southsea, to Miss Martha, second daughter of Mr. T. Good, 3, Commercial-road, Landport
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There are a few items about Alfred Pope, mostly adverts or reports of theft,,he is always a draper.
This is interesting though.😉
Text doesn't copy well.
PORTSMOUTH POLICE
Date: Saturday, Apr. 4, 1868
Publication: Hampshire/Portsmouth Telegraph (Leeds, England)Issue: 371
Alfred Pope, a linendraper, carrying business in Commercial-road, was- summoned to show cause why he should not contribute towards the support the illegitimate child of Susan Ford, of which he Was the putative father.-The defendant did not appeal l ot wvas represented by Mr. Harvey.-Mr. Champ appeared for the applicant.-The applicant stated that she gave birth to a child on the 21st of December. The defendant was the father of the child. She was in his employ as .domestic servant, and when she became pregnant he sent her away to Hiighhridge, in Somersahire, and gave her five guineas. She had since received other sums from him, amountting in all to 101. lOs.-The paternity was not . denied, but Mr. Harvey objected to an application made by Mr. Champ for costs.-M~r. Garrington said the magistrates did not feel inclined to shield the defendant in anyway, and he would have to pay 2s. 6d. per week towards the support of the child, for for the midwife, 11. is. for l the attorney, and the costs of the court.
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1861
Name:Alfd Pope Age:21 Estimated Birth Year:1840
Relation:Visitor
Where Born:S George, Bermuda
Civil Parish:Westminster St Margaret
Ecclesiastical parish:St MargaretCounty/Island:Middlesex
Occupation: assistant Draper
Condition as to marriage: unm
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Yes, this is all really interesting - especially the 1868 police report, thank you! It's great that you found the 1861 census as well.
He's not really a role model is he? It makes it seem more likely that he's also the Alfred Pope who married Kate Dunstan....
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The below is on findmypast, wonder who Amy names as her father and his occupation.
Pope
Amy Martha
1864
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1892
Hampshire, Portsmouth Marriages
Southsea, St Bartholomew, Hampshire, England
John
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parish entry is on Findmypast , and father is named as Alfred Pope, draper.
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Thanks osprey
John
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Amy married James Pearce.
If you have the marriage certificate to Kate, are there any clues as to why they were in Wales. Place of abode and wittnesses names.
Another thought is getting the marriage certificate to Martha and comparing his signature, he must have been literate.
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Wonder what happened with this daughter.
POPE, KATE RUDOLPHINA mother's maiden name DUNSTAN
GRO Reference: 1883 J Quarter in OF CARDIFF Volume 11A Page 252
John
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That's a good idea Wilcoxon about the marriage certificates but I'm not sure the one with Kate helps much because it looks as though the same person wrote all of it. I've attached a copy (I've had to do a screenshot to keep within the size of the file you can upload).
Kate probably moved from Cornwall to Wales because her parents and some of her siblings moved there. Her parents (John & Caroline Dunstan) and most of the family were in Penpol in Cornwall in 1871 census but had moved to Swansea by the 1881 census. I found any clues yet as to why Alfred Pope moved there.
I'll order the marriage certificate of Albert Whitehouse and Martha Pope and see what that tells us about her status. I expect it will say she was a widow though.
I can’t answer John’s question at the moment!
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Yes, that is a copy , you would need the original. At least it was in a Church , perhaps they are online somewhere but Wales was a bit reluctant in letting their registers be recorded at one time.
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Pope
Kate Rudolphina
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—
1881-85
British Armed Forces And Overseas Deaths And Burials
Bilbao, Spain
A possibility, but I cant read the image or transcript on FindMyPast
John
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the parish entry for the 1863 marriage is on Findmypast so you could check the signature on that. Martha J Good is Martha Jemima, so Emma could be a mistranscription.
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I've taken the signatures of Alfred Pope from the 1863 parish record and the 1911 census and put them together on the attached. They're not the same but there are some similarities. What do you think?
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It was 48 years later so he could have changed the style, he is consistent with the entry of his son.
The marriage you have is a copy so written by a clerk at the time you ordered it.
It doesn`t seem to be online. I suppose you could contact the Gwent Records Office and ask if they can get a copy of the original entry. There will be a charge, but you have all the details so won`t be a long search.
Worth a shot .
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There are reports of bankruptcy in various papers
Alfred Pope late of Bridgwater draper Dec 31 1869 Exeter
Bankruptcy .—At the Castle of Exeter yesterday , ' the case of Alfred Pope, draper, of Bridgewater, came before Mr. Registrar Daw. The bankrupt, it appeared, was lodged in Taunton gaol at the suit of a creditor, and the registrar of the Taunton Court, on visiting the gaol adjudicated Mr. Pope a bankrupt, and the debts being above £300 the proceedings were transferred to the Exeter District Court of Bankruptcy. Bankrupt failed to surrender there at the time appointed, and his affairs were transferred to the County Court. A petition to annull which was supported by Mr Rogers was now presented, and there being no opposition, the court annulled the bankruptcy.
Exeter Court of Bankruptcy
Date: Friday, Jan. 7, 1870 Publication: Exeter and Plymouth Gazette
Re Alfred Pope, late of Bridgewater, draper. Meeting for choice. Bankrupt owes £690, and has no assets, the furniture and stock having been sold under a deed of assignment. No assignee was chosen.
By March 1870 the case was annulled
In April 1870 there was an audit of Alfred Pope of Bridgewater, grocer and a later entry of a bankruptcy engagement. Nothing more found after this for sure. Could he have had decided to try another trade.
I looked for another Alfred Pope in Bridgewater in 1871 but only found the draper.
Could his wife got a bit fed of him ?
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Thanks for this. Yes, he certainly had enough motive to leave that life and his wife would have definitely had more than enough justification to send him on his way!
I've emailed the Gwent office to ask if I can buy a copy of the original 1877 marriage certificate and explained that it needs to have the original signatures. I've also ordered a copy of Martha Pope's and Albert Whitehouse's marriage certificate to confirm her status at that time.
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Pope
Kate Rudolphina
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—
1881-85
British Armed Forces And Overseas Deaths And Burials
Bilbao, Spain
A possibility, but I cant read the image or transcript on FindMyPast
John
Had to renew membership with FindMyPast and looked at image for Kate. With such a very unusual name, I wonder that if after her birth (1883) the family travelled abroad for a period of time. This might explain why we cannot find them in the 1891 census. They certainly were not at the 1881/1901 addresses. Alfred states his occupation as Foreign Traveller (Coals) on the 1901 census.
John
Added 15.18, the 1911 census records that daughter Caroline was a teacher in foreign languages, learnt from being abroad?
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Son Alfred John is in 1911 a Traveller in Coals and is backwards and forwards to Vigo in Spain.
John
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https://newspapers.library.wales/view/3740598/3740604/117/
https://newspapers.library.wales/view/3747362/3747366/53/
Caroline was taught French in school.
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Yes, all three children did well, even if we find out that their father had a secret past.
Caroline Pope became a language teacher and taught for about 30 years at Halifax Technical College. Leonora Pope married Thomas David John in 1910, who was a colliery agent at the time of the 1911 census.
Alfred John Pope was a successful businessman and became the owner of the Seabank Hydro Hotel in Porthcawl. There was a bit of a scandal about his marriage. He was 54 while his wife, Veronica Clara Jones, was 26 at the time of their wedding. She was the daughter of Sir Thomas George Jones and Lady Mary Louisa Jones. An article in the Western Mail and South Western News of 28th July 1934 says that they kept their engagement and marriage secret and only Veronica’s parents attended the wedding, which took place at the Roman Catholic Church of Our Lady Star of the Sea in Porthcawl, on 23rd July 1934.
There was another bit of a scandal over AJ's & Veronica's daughter's marriage, which made the front of the Daily Mirror (12 September 1955 and available in FindMyPast).
But the reason I looked at the Alfred Pope records again last week was after watching an episode of "Who do you think you are" in which Warwick Davis found that one of his ancestors had abandoned one family and started another. The researcher was explaining that it wasn't as rare as you'd think because divorce was only for the rich.....
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I had some time to spare and did a bit of browsing.
This might be worth checking out.
FindMyPast, marriage of Charles Hill to Emma (Elizabeth) Pope , 1859 St Jude`s Southsea Portsmouth.
In 1861 living in Portsea Charles 24 and Emma 24 b Bermuda have her mother Emma Pope 65 with them, she was born c 1796 Portsea . Charles is a linen draper !
In 1871 the family are in St Paul London, Emma E born Bermuda. Mother isn`t with them .
By 1880 they are in Chicago, Emma Hill born England .
1900 Los Angeles . Emma E Hill born Bermuda
1910 Los Angeles Emma Hill widow born Bermuda. She is an inmate at what looks like Hollenbeck Home, Los Angeles
Emma E Hill death 15 December 1915 Los Angeles.
Of course I know this doesn`t really help with your Alfred, but I`ve had a nice trip to the USA ;)
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That's brilliant, thank you for looking all this up! I knew Alfred had a sister because she was baptised at the same time as he was. This is the extract from the record:
Pope, Emma – father: John – mother: Elizabeth – baptism: 1841 Aug 15- comment: 5 years old – St. George’s Parish
Pope, Alfred – father: John – mother: Elizabeth – baptism: 1841 Aug 15- age 4 weeks old – St. George’s Parish
So she was born about 1836 and they hadn't quite got around to baptising her before. I was just thinking today that I should follow this up, but my subscriptions are only for the UK and Ireland so I couldn't have traced them to the US anyway!
It can't be a coincidence that Charles and Alfred were both drapers. Perhaps Alfred was working with Charles while he was learning the trade - you did find he was a visitor in London in 1861.
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1861 Middlesex
Rd Down 33 carpenter b Devon
Mary Down 30 b Cornwall
Mary H Pomsey relative 12 b Cornwall
Alfd Pope visitor 21 assistant draper b Bermuda St George
Wm Brice lodger 25 “ ” b London
As Alfred is a visitor this suggests he knew the family.
1861 Portsea Hampshire
Charles Hill 24 linen draper b Widley
Emma Hill (Pope) 25 b Bermuda
Infant Hill 0 (1 Day female) b Portsea
Emma Pope wife`s mother widow 65 b Portsea
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1880 US census All born England
Franklin St Chicgao
Charles Hill 43 Self (Head) ladies suit cutter
Emma Hill 42 Wife
Emma Hill 18 Daughter clerk.
Rose Hill 17 Daughter
Charles Hill 13 Son
Arthur Hill 11 Son
1900 US census
25th Street Los Angeles
Arthur S Hill 31 Head surgical instrument ??
Edna W Hill 23 Wife b Illinois
Stanley R Hill 1 Son b California
Emma E Hill 64 Mother b Bermuda
1910 US census
Hollenbeck Home / House Boyle Ave, Los Angeles Assembly District 69, Los Angeles, California, USA
Emma Hill Age 74 Birthplace: Bermuda
Immigration Year: 1871 Inmate Widowed
No one here under 62 so probably an old people`s home.
Possibly her death
Emma E Hill Birth Year: abt 1836 Death Date: 18 Dec 1915
Age at Death: 79 Death Place: Los Angeles, California, USA
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It's interesting to see all this, many thanks.
I've just searched the public trees on Ancestry and Emma is on the tree of a lady who says that Charles Hill disappeared - so even this side of the family has it's issues! She says this:
"My uncle Donald A. Hill told me today that his grandfather told him that his father just disappeared one day in Chicago. He told my uncle that possibly his father went to Australia because he had talked about it. Meanwhile, his wife is listed in 1900 as a "widow" living with her youngest son and family. In 1910 she is in the Hollenbeck Home in Los Angeles. An interesting mystery should anyone want to try to solve it."
Hollenbeck Palms in Boyle Avenue in LA is still a retirement home.
This lady doesn't have Alfred in her tree.
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I have a "gut" feeling this is John Pope but perhaps he is a bit old. Could he have been married before.
None of the family are found in 1851 .
On Ancestry.
England & Wales, Prerogative Court of Canterbury Wills, 1384-1858
John Pope. 1854 He is of Landport, Portsea. Has a wife Elizabeth and unamed heirs
The original burial register entry has no occupation on it.
John Pope Age 70 abode Landport.
Burial Date 22 Nov 1854
Death or Burial Place St Marys Portsea, Hampshire, England
Birth Year (Estimated)1784
It's a shame the children's baptisms don't have a mothers maiden name.
It's getting to be guesswork now.
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Those do look possible but it would make him rather old, as you say.
In Findmypast there's a parish record of a John Pope, widower, who married Elizabeth Watson, spinster, on 29th January 1832 at Alverstoke, which is across the water from Portsea.
There’s a baptism record for an Elizabeth Watson on 3rd August 1796 in Portsea. Parents David and Elizabeth.
There seem to be a lot of Popes in that area though!
The Gwent office says it has a copy of the parish registration of Alfred & Kate's marriage so I've ordered that and we can see if that helps at all (£12.25, so not too bad).
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I've received the copy of the 1877 parish register with the marriage of Alfred Pope to Kate Dunstan. I've taken a copy of Alfred's signature and added it to the other two on the attached document.
We may need a graphologist to give an opinion!
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Try the Handwriting Recognition page.
There are some experts on there 🙂
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OK, many thanks. I've posted it on there, so it will be good to see what they think!
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Well, there’s a unanimous verdict from the handwriting experts that it wasn’t the same person who signed the two marriage certificates, so it looks as though the coincidences regarding the two Alfred Popes were no more than that.
I’m very grateful to everyone who helped look into this and particularly to wilcoxon for your suggestions as to how best to check this out and for the research you did on the second Alfred.
Malcolm