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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Derry (Londonderry) => Topic started by: cbrad on Saturday 06 September 08 18:02 BST (UK)
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Has anyone access to the 1901 census for Waterside area of Londonderry. I am trying to get details of John (b 1863 )and Matilda Adair (b 1858) both dates calculated from death certificates. They had a large family, Ebrington Rd, Limavady Rd and Ebrington Presbyterian Church all connected. Daughter Annie b 1885 + I believe eight others. Any help appreciated.
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Ebrington Presbyterian Church is on the Limavady Road, Waterside, Londonderry:
www.presbyterianireland.org/congregations/ebrington.html
The church actually opened Oct.1897.
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Thank you, I had found that site before but missed the fact that it opened in 1897. Any idea where presbyterians in the area might have married before this, round about 1883? The church record might help me to find John and Matilda Adair. My grandmother was married in Ebrington Rd Church but in 1912.
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There are quite a few Presbyterian Churches in Londonderry itself and the area. Marriages usually but not always took place in the bride's church. Londonderry Registry Office is certainly also a possibility. Can't see a marriage for John Adair to a Matilda in Co. Derry (although the index I'm using may not be complete) so Co. Donegal is also some place to consider.
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Thanks for trying. I get the feeling that my G Grandma was a staunch Presbyterian so I think she would have married in a church if it was possible. I have almost no information on her apart from her name and that she was supposed to be Scottish but this may just mean by descent? I have an address of Clifton Rd, Waterside for my grandma in 1912 but whether her parents lived there then or before, I have no idea! That's why I hoped to find a copy of their address in 1901 if the census remains?
I just have to hope that someone recognises the family, there was an Annie, Jenny/Jeanne, Tilly, John (died WW1 R In Fusliliers), Billy who emigrated to USA and then was repatriated in the depresssion, and Eleanor the youngest(known as Nell) and more I think. John and Matilda came to England between the wars and lived with Annie who was a war widow by then. Eleanor came to England with her husband who survived both W Wars as a soldier.
If anyone has any ideas, PLEASE post. thank you.
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Being a staunch Presbyterian would not have prevented her from having a Registry Office wedding. Among the reasons for doing so were:
1. bride preganant
2. recent death in family
3. either bride or groom previously married
4. own minister was away/church had no minister at the time
5. family disapproval
6. minister was not authorised to perform marriages. My Reformed Presbyterian relatives (very, very strict) all had Registry Office marriages as well as church marriages and when the notice appeared in the paper it gave the church as place of marriage.
The 1901 census does exist but it's not yet indexed (coming eventually along with 1911 on National Archives, Dublin website)
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Looks like son John?:
Corporal J. Adair, number 15264, 10th Bn. Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers, died 4 Oct.1916, son of Mr. W. Adair 32 Governor Road Londonderry.
If so, more details: assosiated with Christ Church (Church of Ireland), Londonderry. Son of William (d.7 Mar.1946?) & Matilda Jane?
"Corporal Adair's father received intimation from the Reverend Alexander Spence that his son was instantaneously killed by a trench mortar shell while in the trenches. The Reverend J. G. Paton, Presbyterian chaplain and Corporal Adair's major, also wrote, in a sympathetic letter: 'I do not know a braver soldier in our battalion. He had played a heroic part a few nights before in the enemy's trenches, when we captured a machine gun. He was specially commended by the officer in charge.'
John Adair won an Ulster Division Certificate for conspicuous gallantry on July 1, 1916, in the Thiepval sector. Whilst in charge of a bombing attack, on that day, he bombed many dugouts and took many prisoners. His name was read out during a memorial service held, on Sunday, November 4, 1917, for the members of the congregation of Christ Church (Church of Ireland), Londonderry, who had given their lives in battle during the previous year.
William and Matilda J. Adair, 32, Governor Road, both signed the Ulster Solemn League and Covenant (September 1912) pledging opposition to Home Rule for Ireland. William Adair, same address, worked as a Fitter in the Londonderry Shipyard in the early 1920s, and belonged to the Derry branch of the Ulster Unionist Labour Association in the same period."
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This is so kind of you but it is not the correct son. I too thought I had this correctly until we found the commerative plaque which my grandmother had kept and it clearly gave his rank as private. With the mother called Matilda, I assumed that the father was William John (but known as John) but unless the plaque was wrong, it could not be him. Later on searching, I found the mention of a Private John Adair, Killed Ypes 1st July, 1916, RSF 11th Bat. You don't have any more information on him do you - that would be fantastic.
Thank you for the other information. That is very helpful.
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Later on searching, I found the mention of a Private John Adair, Killed Ypes 1st July, 1916, RSF 11th Bat. You don't have any more information on him do you - that would be fantastic.
Do you mean Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers instead of RSF? If so, the only one I could find is:
Pve. John Adair #14849 commemorated on Thiepval Memorial.
The John Adair #15264 (information posted previously) is the only one on Londonderry War Memorial with the surname ADAIR. During WWI it was common for ranks to go up, and down, so wouldn't rule out him just yet. Does the address 32 Governor Road ring any bells? William and Matilda (parents) both signed Covenant in 1912 (signatures can be viewed on PRONI site).
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Yes, Sorry I did mean Inniskillin not RSf (wrong soldier). I do have the Governor Rd address but it does not mean anything. I did make a link with the ancestors of the family but they did not seem to recognise my family so I tended to discount it. The second soldier (private) you mention I have assumed to be my relative.
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Think that you need either church records or census (1901 or 1911) to sort this out. Census records will eventually be online at National Archives, Dublin site.
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Just had a thought- checked 1910 Ulster Directory and found:
William Adair, Duke St., Waterside listed under Agricultural Implement Agents, Boot & Shoe Makers, emigration Agents, Seed & Manure Merchants.
William Adair, Waterside (may be same as above) listed under Leather & Hide Merchants.
William Adair & Son, Bishop St.: Posting Establishments, Herse Proprietors.
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Thank you,
I will make a note of those but I get the feeling that these would have been men who were reasonably comfortably off with their own business. My grandmother grew up on a farm, was taken out of school after one year and sent to work to help the family income. We know she spent her very early years on a farm and was so hungry that she ate raw eggs!. I would imagine that her parents would be very poor agricultural workers for at least the early part of their married years, after that I am not sure. The waterside address of Clifton Rd I have from her marriage cert., was where my grandmother lived in 1912 so it could have been lodgings. I know she worked in a shirt factory before she was married in 1912.
Do you know approximately when the Dublin Archives for the census will be avilable?
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National Archives, Dublin is putting Antrim, Down & Kerry online in October 2008 but Co. Londonderry is further down the line:
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/about/futureplans.html
However, Co. Donegal is next in the list after the above 3 and it might be worth checking that one when available since Londonderry is so close to Co. Donegal.
What is John Adair's occupation? If the family lived in the Waterside a farmer/farm lab. is less likely but perhaps the farm was at an earlier time. If so, the church records you need might not be Waterside area. Where was your grandmother born?
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I have been trying to trace my grandmother's birth with no success. I always understood that she was born in Londonderry but I understand that sometimes people did not bother to register the births then . How I regret not prompting her for more information but she was not very talkative about her past as she had had a very hard life! I think the census is my best chance of finding anything by recognising the family. I do have the year of birth(+-1) of the G grandparents as I have burial details. My grandmother was born 25.05.1885.
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By 1885 most births would have been registered. Could she have been born outside Co. Londonderry?
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Not to my knowledge and there is no one I can ask who thinks differently. My grandmother was always so proud of 'coming from Derry'! I was shown an Annie Adair born 1875 -Derry Geneology Centre - and wondered if a mistake could have been made with a seven for an eight. Are such things possible?
Otherwise I think you must be correct and the G grandparents married elsewhere. I am guessing the marriage would be about 1883/4 as I believe my grandmother was the eldest child.
Thanks again for all your help. If I keep trying they have got to turn up somewhere!
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There's an Ann Jane Adair born 1885 in Co. Derry- could that be a possibility? (only have an index and no other details given)
There's also an Annie Adair m.1912 Co. Derry to William John Myers.
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Yes the marriage is my grandma, I have the certificate and her sister and brother in law, who I knew, were witnesses. I never heard her called anything but Annie and there is only Annie on her marriage cert.
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Some success at last. I looked up Matilda Adair on the covernent (declaration) using the Governor Rd Address and there below was Matilda Adair of 4 Clifton St, Waterside, Londonderry. This must be my G grandmother as someone signed for her - she had a cross which makes sense that she probably could not write. However, try as I may, I could not find an entry for John Adair at the same address. It did occur to me that this Matilda could be my grandmother's sister who lodged with her? I tried a search with just the address but could get nothing.
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PRONI site is down again- getting 'service unavailable' message now. Perhaps John was dead by 1912 or just didn't sign the Covenant.
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He was definitely alive. I have his burial papers for many years later in England and my mother remembered him living with her mother in old age. I cannot believe he did not sign it unless he was ill at the time? The web site was very erratic and I could not find my Matilda using her name or address with many tries so he may be there lurking somewhere. I will try again at some point.
Thank you for your mention of this document. I would not have known anything about it.
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Cbrad
I think the Governor Rd Adair's are a different family. This was quite a comfortable off area, not like the background you describle.Also its on the Cityside off the Strand Rd not the Waterside.
There was a William Adair still at 32 in the late 1920's.
John Adair who was killed was the son of William. He had a brother William too.
Both John [aged 17] and William [aged 37] were members of Derry City Ulster Volunteer Force in 1914 with an address of 32 Govenor Rd.
As detailed in the information provided by Aghadowey in post 7, which i believe, was taken from the work of Trevor Temple for the Diamond War memorial project [Londonderry] web-site.
John is remembered in the C of I Church, yet your family appear to be Presbyterians.
Interestingly there was a John Adair of the 11th Inniskillings killed [as mentioned above] who was born in Omagh but lived in Londonderry, so may not have qualified to go on the City war memorial.
There is also a William who served and survived who served with the 10th Inniskillings. He came from the Strabane Old Road Waterside.
Rob
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Just been checking. Clearly a different family as i see it.
The Governor Road Adairs' did not move from this address as can be seen from the Covenant, UVF muster list and street directories.
The Waterside Adairs' moved around a bit and by chance there are two families here.
During the First War one was from Ebrington Terrace and the other from Florence Street.
Both had sons William who served, with one having a John and the other a James who also served.
William and John were from 23 Ebrington Terrace and are both listed on Ebrington Presbyterian Church Roll of Honour, with John shown as being killed with the Inniskillings and William as being in the Royal Field Artillary.
By coincidence James was in the Artillary too with his brothe William being in the Inniskillings.
Rob
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Thank you so much for your efforts and sorry for the delay in replying as I have only just returned from holiday.
This gets more and more interesting!
Now the Ebrington Rd family sounds a possibility assuming that the family later moved to 4 Clifton St, Waterside (the address given when they signed the declaration and the address on my grandmother's wedding certificate). There was definitely a John who was killed in WW1 serving in the Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers )believed - pvt.14849. 11th bat, died 1st July, 1916. We are pretty sure this is the correct one (we have the memorial plaque) but although there was a brother William (Billy) he was known to have emigrated to USA and I don't know if he served in the War or not. I found details of a William Adair who emigrated at the age of 21 in 1909 to New York from Londonderry and thought this must be him (he actually ended up in Chigago). We know he was deported during the depression as an 'economic alien' and that he had worked for the postal service in USA. He came to join the majority of his family by that time in England during the thirties, with an American wife and a small son. He died in his late fifties during WW2 of a heart attack as a civilian in London. The dates did seem to roughly fit. I am sure there were more siblings but I only knew the names of those two boys with a Matilda/Tilly, Jeannie/Jinny and Eleanor/Nell as girls. Both Annie and Eleanor married british soldiers from the Royal Scots Fusiliers who were stationed at Ebrington Barracks.
I don't suppose there could have been another family Adair. The first names seem very common for the time?
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Can't see a William Adair age 21 in 1909 Londonderry to N.Y.
There is William Adair arr. NY 6 JUne 1909 but born Belfast.
1920 U.S. Census found in Chicago, Cook, Illinois a Wm. Adair age 36, born Ireland, to US 1906 chauffeur with wife Ida 29 born Illinois and daughter Florence age 9 months born Illinois. But this William is possibly son of William + Jane Adair (1910- Biggsville, Henderson, Ill.).
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Wow you are quick! How do you get your information so fast?
The details I have are William J Adair, age 21 years. Sailed 29th May, 1909. Londonderry to New York on the ship 'Columbia' - Anchor line. Official number 115682, master FH Wadsworth. 170 passengers on voyage.
My elderly aunt (the wife of a son of Eleanor Adair) told me that he had been a USA postal worker (probably a postman). She was positive that he had lived in Chicago.
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William Adair arr. "Columbia" 6 June 1909 age 24 was born in Belfast and going to friend J. McLaughlan in Paterson, N.J. He was a coach painter and his father was William J. Adair of 31 Memel St. Belfast.
Think you can rule this one out.
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Thank you for that information.' Find my Past' website must have his age wrong! If I can rule him out as being the family member who emigrated then it looks as though the Ebrington Terrace family could indeed be the correct one. This William was supposed to have died age 50 during WW2. Do you have any access to the census for 1901 because if I could recognise the family unit definitely, I will have more chance of following the trail and finding the marriage of the parents and the birth of mt grandma Annie. Also it means that if the brother William (Billy) served and survived WW1 there may be a record of his service which may give some clues though many of these records have been destroyed - worth a try though?
I can't thank you enough for your help. I had really reached a brick wall before.
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Sorry but I don't have 1901 census for Londonderry. Eventually it will be online at National Archives, Dublin website after they finish putting on the 1911 census. If you are in Northern Ireland there are several places you can view 1901 census (PRONI and Ballymena Library to name two). Otherwise, you can order 1901 census from your local LDS library but you need to know where they lived to get the correct reel (see online catalogue at www.familysearch.org).
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Thanks again. No I live in the S of England hence my ignorance of places in NI. I will have to wait for the details to come on line.
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I am also looking for information about Adair from Londonderry.
I am trying to get the marriage information for Letitia Ann Adair b 30 July 1870 Glendermot (parish/district).
Letitia was the daughter of William Adair and Ann Evans. She married William Manwaring (AKA Mainwaring) on July 22 1907 in Londonderry. I am trying to get more information on William Manwaring such as date and place of birth.
If you want you can get more information on the Adair in my wife's family from http://www.bomersfamily.com and enter Adair in the last name.
Ted
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Ted,
Welcome to roots chat. Letitia married William Mainwaring in Glendermott Second Presbyterian Church. I cannot find the Mainwaring name in Londonderry at that time but the IGI has what could be a Grandfather in Dublin about 1850
Regards
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According to your family tree William Mainwaring was a naval petty officer so he could have been born anywhere and met Letitia Ann when stationed in Londonderry. Hopefully, the 1911 census will shed some light on his place and date of birth if nothing else is found in the meantime.
P.S. I see 5 children of William Adair and Ann Evans listed in IGI but think they have a different date of birth for Elizabeth (5 Mar.1874).
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Thanks for confirming the marriage being in Glendermot Presbeterian Church. What is the best way to get a transcript of the marriage certificate? through my research the original church was replaced and don't know where I should get the information from.
We live in Canada so I will need a mailing address.
Thanks
Ted
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The information about William Mainwaring that I currently have came from my father-in law's birth certificate. I was able to obtain that from Scotland. It says that he was a naval officer and also that they were married July 22 1907 in Londonderry Ireland. I would like to get more information about the potential link to the Mainwaring from Dublin. What is IGI? I am not familiar with that abbreviation. Where can I search/write to for information in Ireland since we live in Canada.
Thanks
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IGI (International Genealogical Index) is part of LDS site (free): www.familysearch.org
To get a copy of the 1907 marriage certificate:
www.groireland.ie/apply_for_a_cert.htm
Other than the 1907 marriage I could see no sign of Mainwaring/Manwarig in Co.Londonderry. The marriage certificate will list the residences of the bride and groom at the time of the marriage which may or may not be where they were born or where their families lived.
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Thanks for the information but I am still a little concerned because of my previous a experience. I wrote to Registrar General, Oxford House in Belfast to request a marriage certificate and they returned my request for 2 reasons:
1. Marriage registers dating from 1 April 1845 for non-Roman catholic marriages should be obtained from the District Registrar's offices.
2. I indicated Glendermot Presbyterian Church in Altnagilvin, Londonderry and the district Glendermot as the place of the marriage but they indicated that this was not correct and returned my application with the money order. The money £ 5.5 order is still sitting here.
I don't mind paying for a service but would like to have some success. My question is:
Is the Civil Registration Office in Roscommon Ireland the right place? Reason I am asking is that is the General Register Office for the Republic of Ireland is in Roscommon and I think I need to go to Ulster Northern Ireland. Would you know the address of the District Registry Office for Londonderry?
Sorry to be so picky but I hope you understand my frustration with my efforts so far.
Ted
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GRO, Dublin (Roscommon) has certificates for all Ireland up to 1922. This is the link I gave you earlier. Until 1922 Ireland was all one country and registration was centralised in Dublin.
This is the link for GRONI, Belfast:
www.groni.gov.uk
There is a link on the page for 'District Registrar Offices' at the top of page and Derry is listed there.
Not sure what the problem was with trying order certificates previously but sometimes the more details you give the less chance of getting a certificate is all given details don't match their records.
Are you sure of the church?- there was a seatholder named John Adair in 1866 in 2nd Glendermott Presbyterian Church. See here for picture of church:
www.gilfillanfamily.com/cag5.htm
First Glendermott Presbyterian Church is here:
www.glendermottpc.org
From the information posted above it looks like the Adair/Mainwaring marriage took place in 2nd Glendermott and you perhaps gave GRONI Glendermott as the church.
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I'll give it a try. Thanks for your help.
Ted
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After a long gap I have managed to glean some more information relating my previous postings at the start of this topic, about the Adairs of Waterside, (Ebrington Terrace, Clifton St and Chapel Rd), Londonderry and would be so grateful for any more help. I have now found that contrary to my belief, the children were all born in Co.Tyrone. I am now hoping to find a marriage between Matilda (could be Jenkins) and John Adair possibly in the Omagh or Strathane area, Co Tyrone in approx 1881. I have a 30 year marriage stated on the 1911 census and one son William -stated on military records -that he was from Donedheady (Nr Strathane) and the other John who died in WW1 is recorded as being from Omagh. The father John was born in Derry approx 1860 but Matilda, his wife was, according to the census, born in Co. Tyrone approx 1855.
I am now guessing that John snr moved out into the Co Tyrone countryside for farm labouring work and met his wife there, later returning to Londonderry. I am trying to find a marriage for the parents and of course details of their parents, the wife's maiden name and birth details for all the children Annie, 1885, Ellen/Eleanor b1892 and Tilly/Matilda b abt 1895. If anyone can help or point me in the right direction it will be much appreciated.
Thanks,
cbrad
PS I need to confirm the dob for both boys too (William and John)
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Am a bit puzzled by your latest information. I can't find a birth for Matilda c1895, Ellen/Eleanor Adair c1892, etc. in civil index. Where exactly did you get the new information?
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Thank you for so quick a response. I am using the census of 1911- 47 Chapel Rd, Londonderry, which gives the ages of Tilly as 15, Ellen as 18, Annie as 25, John as 51 and Matilda as 56. It is possible that the children may be born one years difference to stated as other than Annie, I do not know the birthday months. I had forgotten that there is also a Jeannie/Jinny as well, probably born between 1881 and 1888. All the girls (minus Jeannie) and mother, were stated born in Co Tyrone. The records of William and John were military records from Ancestry and showed William's enlistment in the reserves (RIF) and then his regiment a short while later (Royal Field Artillery)- and the record for John (RIF)was from an army memorial.
It is of course possible that this family moved around a lot because the records for the William would have been when he was 17/18 and as for John - the memorial just says 'from Omagh'. This is all I have to go on at present.
CB
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Hi,
The Londonderry Diamond War Memorial project www.diamondwarmemorial.com only lists one Adair from Londonderry who was killed in WW1. This was Corp John Adair of the Royal Inniskillen Fusiliers. It suggests that he was the son of William Adair and possibly Matilda Jane Adair. I have found this family on the 1911 census and it shows that John was the brother of William and the brother-in-law of Matilda. They lived in Governor Road.
Regards
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Details of John Adair killed WWI were already posted (see replies 6-8 on page 1 of this thread).
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Hi,
My apologies. The War Memorial bit was a precis of your earlier posting, the relevant part is that William and Matilda were probably not his parents but his brother and sister-in-law.
Regards
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Re the Adairs of Governor Road.
I do not think they are linked. I have a contact who has a link to these people and I think they were in a slightly higher social class than my relatives - at least I have not been able to make a link unless it is further back in generations. It is tempting to link them as family names of men are similar.
I have found via a geneology connection, a John Adair b1834 in Londonderry, son of John/James Adair from Dublin (farmer and miller)and brother of William Adair b 1836 (farmer and miller) John possibly had a daughter Jeannie Adair b around 1860 (she was I think, present as a witness to some legal papers). This lady could be a sister to John Adair b 1860 (there were actually twins in the family as Ellen Adair his daughter b 1892, was a surviving twin though her brother who died may not have ever been registered).
I am still hopeful that someone will recognise something here!
Thanks everyone.
CB
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No need to apologise, Kingskerswell, the problem seems to be that there's too much posted that doesn't quite add up here.
Have spent quite a while going back to the start of the thread checking details. Here's a basic family tree according to what Cbrad has posted-
John ADAIR born 1863/c1869 Co.Londonderry married c1881 Strabane/Omagh district to Matilda (possibly Jenkins?) who was born 1858/c1855 Co.Tyrone. 1911 - 47 Chapel Rd, 1912 (Matilda) 4 Clifton St., Waterside; moved to England. The family were Presbyterian. Children (not in order)-
1. Annie born 25 May 1885 Co. Tyrone [m.1912 William John Myers]
2. Jenny/Jeanne born 1881-1888
3. Tilly/Matilda b.1895 Co.Tyrone
4. Eleanor/Nell born 1892 Co.Tyrone
5. John killed WWI Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers, born Omagh
6. William/Billy moved to US then to England, from Donedheady nr. Strabane
It all sounds logical and there certainly are ways to verify at least some of the information.
1) birth certificates for any of the children will list not only exact date and place of birth but also mother's maiden name which should then enable the correct marriage certificate to be found
2) church records would hopefully lists baptisms of these children (and possibly others who didn't survive/are as yet unknown)- may also give mother's maiden name and residence at the time
WWI soldiers who died are usually much easier to trace than those that survived. So, concentrating on John Adair-
1) most likely soldier found so far is John Adair #14849 died 1 July 1916 Ypres
2) does not seem to be listed on Londonderry War Memorial (not uncommon for this to happen) but is not listed on any Presbyterian Roll of Honour (http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~econnolly/rohpci.html) for any churches in Omagh or Strabane Presbyteries. You can check further but I stopped at those 2 Presbyteries.
Added- only Adair mention found was Urney & Sion (Strabane Presbytery) for 3 Adairs from Church Square
3) it's possible that John's dead would be listed in local newspaper but as there were so many killed 1st July the paper might have just printed lists of names from those killed or missing without family details.
The 1911 census entry (http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Londonderry/Londonderry_No__5_Urban/Chapel_Road/606029/) for the family is very interesting. John is listed as having 8 children (6 living) while Matilda says 6/6- perhaps just a mistake but keep in mind John might have been married previously (John and Matilda's marriage certificate should say wether he was widowed or single). Ellen is listed as Ellen J. and sister is Tillie. The census also confirms that the family were Presbyterian.
More to follow...
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Marriage certificate for John Adair and Matilda ? should find her maiden name and since marriage usually take place in bride's church it might also lead to further relatives of Matilda's being found. However, details of children's births from the civil index would also help locate where in Co. Tyrone they were from.
1) searched for Adair births in Co, Tyrone 1880-1899 and only one that might match the 6 children we have is for a William Adair birth Jan./Mar.1893 Strabane registration district.
2) searched for Ellen Adair birth 1890-1899 (all Ireland)- nothing near Tyrone or Derry for those dates.
3) searched for Matilda Adair born 1890-1899 (again all Ireland)- nothing for 1895 Co. Tyrone but there was a Matilda Adair birth July/Sept.1891 Londonderry registration district.
4) searched Annie Adair born 1880-1889 Tyrone or Derry and only 1 possible result- Ann Jane birth Jan./Mar.1885 Londonderry registration district. Note: if Annie was born 25 May 1885 this couldn't be her.
5) searched for John Adair born Co.Tyrone- only 4 results- 1851, 1909, 1877 Cookstown district, 1879 Armagh district.
6) searched for marriage of John Adair- nothing for approx. date given in 1911 census
It's very strange (and unusual) that so many births, and the marriage can't be found in the civil index.
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Hi,
The John Adair who died on 1 July 1916 was born in Omagh but resident in Belfast. I think that this means he enlisted in Belfast. He was a private in the 11 Bn of the Royal Inniskillen Fusiliers, number 14849. No other information is given in CWGC site or in the Military section of Ancestry.
Regards
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None of the John Adairs or William Adairs in 1911 Irish census listed their birthplace as Co. Tyrone.
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Well thank you again for your efforts and I am trying to piece everything together that I have, compared to what you have found. I have trawled through all and found the following-
I think there could be mistakes on the census or else death documents recorded ages wrongly. Firstly I went back and checked and John Adair is recorded on his burial papers as being 63 and he died in 1932 (buried April). This would make his birth 1869 and not 1860 as the census suggests - one of them is wrong! However, Annie Myers, my grandmother is recorded as being 88 years when she died in 1973 and her birth date of 25th May 1885 is also printed on her death certificate. This date agrees with the 1911 census age of 25 as it was taken in April before her 26th birthday in May.
I have the British Army Pension record for son William Adair which estimates his birth as 1891 and he joined the army age 17 with a birth parish of Donedheady, Tyrone. I believe you confirmed this one. His brother John died 01.07 1916 in Ypres pvt 14849 RIF. Details correct as we have original details and plaque from WW1. Ireland Memorial records 'Casualties of War' list him as born in Omagh. I do not know his exact birth year but assumed he was older than William who was born abt 1891 so I am working on 1888/89.
The daughter Eleanor/Ellen Jenkins Adair married Leonard Froude in December 1912. She died, according to her burial cert, age 68 in 1962 - making a range of 1892-4 as a possible birth year depending on months of census etc.
I never heard that my grandmother Annie had a second name
so Anne Jane is not the one.
One last thing, my grandmother spent the early years of her life on a farm, until she was at least six or seven years old.
I think the family might have moved around a lot and I only guessed at Jeannie's birth year.
Regards, CB
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A little more!
William Adair, found in Strathbane area 1893 is possibly the correct one because I know that the husband of Eleanor Adair joined the army at 14 years old - he lied about his age so it is possible that William Adair did the same and joined up at fifteen. Also Tilly Adair signed the Declaration in 1912? Should she have been 21 in order to sign? If so she lied about her age too.
CB
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Do you mean Strabane? I know of quite a few teenagers who signed the Covenant/Declaration in 1912 so Tillie might easily have done so.
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Yes, sorry for the mis spelling.
So it was a question of getting as many signatures as possible then? Assuming the boys were in the army, I still cannot work out where Jeannie was unless she married? I could not find her signature on the Declaration.
CB
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Aghadowey,
As stated in a previous post, John is listed on Ebrington [Londonderry] Presbyterian Memorial Roll, along with his brother William.
John died on the Somme [France] and is listed on the Thiepval Memorial there. Not Ypres which is in Belgium.
He is not on Londonderry City memorial as he wasn't born in the City and they were very strict in their requirements.
There are other instances of two brothers killed and only one listed because of place of birth.
CB - When the Covenant was Signed the boys were not in the army, you need to look in Londonderry..
But not everyone signed the Covenant
Rob
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As I said earlier, there seems to be conflicting information on this thread-
Aghadowey,
John died on the Somme [France] and is listed on the Thiepval Memorial there. Not Ypres which is in Belgium.
I have the British Army Pension record for son William Adair which estimates his birth as 1891 and he joined the army age 17 with a birth parish of Donedheady, Tyrone. I believe you confirmed this one. His brother John died 01.07 1916 in Ypres pvt 14849 RIF. Details correct as we have original details and plaque from WW1. Ireland Memorial records 'Casualties of War' list him as born in Omagh. I do not know his exact birth year but assumed he was older than William who was born abt 1891 so I am working on 1888/89.
The reason I checked the Presbyterian Rolls of Honour in Strabane and Omagh Presbyteries was because of a possible connection to a church in those areas.
It's not unusual to find men listed on war memorials that were not born in the district.
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Please can I clarify. Firstly apologies for my lack of geographical understanding. Private John Adair (14849 d 1.7.1916) was remembered on the Thiepval Memorial. My grandfather died at Ypres about the same time and I had mistakenly thought that John was in the same area when he died. However, William, John's brother, survived the war and so could not be the one mentioned on the memorial in Londonderry. William firstly joined the RIF as an army reservist at age 17 for six years then managed to join the Royal Field Artillery in 1905 at age 18 (declaring his sign up to reserves); I have the copies of the join up papers. The RFA was for a short service which I took to be 10 years - meaning that he would have been in the army during 1912 when the covernant was signed. I have assumed that brother John also would have joined the army at an early age. Both came from a very poor household and I have surmised that the army would have been preferable to being a general labourer.
I think we established before, that there were two very similar families in Londonderry during the WW1 period, both with a William and John, and it would seem that there might be some confusion between the two. Sorry if I am giving you headaches here!
I think that my family, headed by John Adair snr who was a general labourer and born in Londonderry, moved around a lot. I am guessing that he moved out into Tyrone somewhere and met his wife. I doubt they were literate despite the census stating they were, as my grandmother was sent to work at seven and never learned to read or write. Certainly around the 1885 time they were working on a farm (my grandmother's early years) and as both sons gave different birth places that would seem to bear out the theory.
I am still hopeful that more will be found - eventually! So thank you again everyone for your help.
CB
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CB,
A minor point. The presbyterian Church in Ireland published a Roll of Honour, Presbytery by Presbytery and church by church within each presbytery giving the names of members of the congregations who served and listing those Killed or wounded. For Ebrington Presbyterian Church both the Adairs are mentioned, William being a Bombadier in the RFA and surviving and John being KIA Regards
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CB,
Kingskerswell is correct, the Presbyterian registers list those that served, including dead and survived.
So William on the Ebrington Church memorial is the correct one.
The main differance with the Presbyterian church rolls as opposed to the City War Memorial list is that the church took the names of its members at the time of the war [as well as could be remembered as some families had moved on by the time the lists were compiled], hence the Adairs being on Ebrington's list, whereas the main Londonderry war memorial committee only allowed people who were born or had lived in the City for a large number of years.
Aghadowey, i do not believe there is conflicting information, just a mistaken detail being repeated.
John was a member of the 11th Btn [Donegal & Fermanagh Volunteers] Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers, 109th Brigade, 36th division and was killed in the attack on the 1st July 1916 when the Division gained its famous reputation.
This was from Thiepval Wood, the Somme, France.
John was not a regular soldier, he was a 1914 volunteer. you can tell this from his service number and the date he landed in France with the Ulster Division.
He enlisted in Belfast and appears to have been born in Omagh.
Rob