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General => The Common Room => The Lighter Side => Topic started by: history_itself on Friday 05 September 08 04:34 BST (UK)
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Moderator Comment:
Original Title: Can the Scottish Brogue ever be Lost ?
To avoid concentrating on any particular group,
and to extend it towards a more general discussion,
the title has been changed.
Hello to all Our Forum's Valued Members,
Could some kindly person help us try to eliminate an itch we can't scratch.
“First”, “no” disrespect is meant to any Scottish Person or the Beloved Scottish Nation.
Is it possible for any 2 [Two] Persons born, bred, raised, schooled and married in Scotland. If they migrate to a Nation where English is the principal Language, for their Blood Families Siblings, to, over the Families Generations to loose their Scottish Brogue Totally between the Time Frame say of 1800 to 1970. In total 170 years ?
Or, is the outcome, once a Scotsman, always able to be discerned by the lingering Brogue, a Scottish Descendant ?
Thank you, to all, in advance for your Valued Replys
Fruitful Researching to You all,
Pam.
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Ah Dave (*), you obviously have the Glesga Patter down pat - right down to the ASTERISK!!
And here it is:
http://www.tachras.com/journal/articles/patter/PatterEFG.htm
But anyone who's interested in the Glesga Patter would enjoy the whole series.
Then there's also a series with the Fife accent ...
Incidentally, my own late mother (1895-1976) still had Scots usages/pronunciations which had come down through her Aussie-born Grandmother from her Glasgow-born Greatgma who came to Australia ca 1852!
JAP
(*) Moderator Comment: Dave's reply removed, unsuitable language
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I'm not sure I understand the question :-\
Are you asking whether, if two Scotspeople emigrated, say to Australia or America, and married, whether over the ensuing 170 years their descendants would lose the Scottish accent? Unless they lived in a very isolated enclave of Scottish people, I would think the answer was quite obviously "yes".
Of course sayings, words and a few 'family' pronunciations might stay in the family, as JAP points out.
Why do you ask, anyway?
Prue
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Without wishing to upset our more sensitive members, i would comment, we have lived in Ireland since 1970, with 1 daughter born here in Galway, i'm ex Yorks, my wife ex Lancs, whenever me meet new Irish friends, they always ask, where abouts in northern England are we from, yet visiting England i'm accused ?, of sounding Irish, and our daughter born here, speaks with a northern dialect, so i think an accent will remain, but for a 150 years?, i will hang on , and find out.
Bodger
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Bodger,
I hope this doesn't identify anyone or upset anyone but ...
A friend b Italy, grew up in Aus, did tertiary studies in France ...
Is always picked (by accent) as Italian in France, as Australian in Italy, etc, etc ...
Funny old world!
I am wondering what will happen with my own grandchildren who have interesting mixed heritages ...
JAP
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I was always told my mother kept her scottish brogue ..... but to me there wasn't a brogue ..... but I lived with her so didn't notice ..... well I have been told that I don't exactly have a kiwi accent and have always been mistaken for a South African accent.
KHP :D
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Hello Pam,
Accents will unavoidably be lost, if the speaker (with the accent) is immersed in an alien environment (i.e. one with a different accent or language even).
I have had an experience similar to Bodgers. I was born and grew up in England, but I spent most of the 1990s in Germany with my Irish wife. We moved here to Dublin in 2000. There were colleagues here who were surprised by the revelation that I was English - my accent indicated that I was German. At my cousin's wedding last summer, I was often asked which part of Ireland I came from.
Consciously or subconsciously we all attune our speech to the local vernacular.
Justin
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Two examples I can think of:
One friend born in Australia to Italian parents sounds totally Australian (to my ears anyway), as do her siblings.
A schoolfriend born in Lancashire to Scottish parents (father from Glasgow, mother from Edinborough) sounded just as Lancashire as the rest of us at school.
In general I think children tend to speak as their peers do, rather than their parents.
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My great grandmother was born in London to Scottish parents. She didn't have a Scottich accent, but picked up certain words that her parents used. For example "kirk" for church and "Wee" for small. On her daughters grave (she died aged 2) it refers to "Wee Maggie". Since then even these references have filtered out of the family.
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My grandparents had strong Aberdonian accents. All of my friends knew that my dad had a Scottish accent but I couldn't hear it until I left home and spoke to him on the phone. I only have to cross the border into Scotland for my own, rather strange Teesside/Westmorland mix to regain up some of the intonation which I must have learned at a very early age from dad's side of the family. It isn't a deliberate thing, it just happens. And I do find myself saying things like "what like is it?" and "what time about?", which are straight from the mouth of my dad's mum! ???
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Am I the only one that has noticed this part of the question makes absolutely no sense?
If they migrate to a Nation where English is the principal Language, for their Blood Families Siblings, to, over the Families Generations to loose their Scottish Brogue Totally between the Time Frame say of 1800 to 1970.
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My father was born in the north-east in 1921. His parents, grandparents and great-grandparents were all north-easterners and had strong local accents as, I am assured, did my father.
He moved to work in London in the late 1930's and (apart from war-time service) remained living in the south-east for the rest of his long life. He completely lost his north-east accent, and people were always surprised when they discovered where he came from.
His sister remained in the north-east until she was about 25, when she too moved to the south of England, where she still lives. She too has lost all vestiges of the north-east accent.
But their sister, who now lives in North Yorkshire, has retained it.
Jennifer
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No Aghadowey you're not the only person who noticed that part of the question made no sense :o ;) I was itching to bring out my correction pen ;)
Joy
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Well, I did say that I didn't understand the question - and the "siblings" bit was part of that ;D
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Why does accent make a difference?
As fas as I'm concerned - once a Scotsman, always a Scotsman.
It's not what comes out of your mouth or how it sounds, it's what comes from your heart.
Anne
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I too Did not understand the question, Sorry I didn't see the relevance in it.
Why does accent make a difference?
As fas as I'm concerned - once a Scotsman, always a Scotsman.
It's not what comes out of your mouth or how it sounds, it's what comes from your heart.
Anne
I fully agree with you Ann, Well Said
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Hi Pam
Welcome to Rootschat :D
My great granny was born in Wales of Scottish stock and worked in Birmingham and Cheshire/Manchester for many years. She was reputed to have spoken with a very strong Scottish accent until she died, aged 85.
Gadget
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Why does accent make a difference?
As fas as I'm concerned - once a Scotsman, always a Scotsman.
It's not what comes out of your mouth or how it sounds, it's what comes from your heart.
Anne
I fully agree ;D
KHP :D
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Why does accent make a difference?
As fas as I'm concerned - once a Scotsman, always a Scotsman.
It's not what comes out of your mouth or how it sounds, it's what comes from your heart.
Anne
I fully agree ;D
KHP :D
Why does accent make a difference?
As fas as I'm concerned - once a Scotsman, always a Scotsman.
It's not what comes out of your mouth or how it sounds, it's what comes from your heart.
Anne
Me too and although I was born in North Yorkshire and have only lived in Scotland very briefly, many years ago, I have always felt more Scottish than English.
Both of my daughters, born in Yorkshire, raised in Westmorland, of Scottish and English ancestry, support Wales in the rugby! How did that happen? ???
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My grandparents were from Anstruther in Fife ... they emigrated to Australia early on in their married life, but never lost their accent. My mother, born here, has been "picked" by other Scots by the few hints in her speech. The only ones I'm aware of are that she says "mulk" and "mullions" instead of "milk" and "millions" ... and yet one woman was even able to identify which town her parents came from! :o
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Can I just remind folks that Pam was talking about a period of 170 years - three or four generations ago!
Justin
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Language is a question of learning and reinforcement and refreshment and this may come as a surprise to many, but this includes our mother tongue as well.
A lot of people think, the mother tongue just .... well, just is, but it isn't.
You learn your mother tongue, and, for most of us, it is constantly being (passively) reinforced and refreshed. Even if you don't speak a word, you are constantly seeing (reading, advertising, etc) and hearing (listening to others, to the radio, tv, etc) your mother tongue, so you think it's natural, and that it's always there and that you never forget it. Wrong !!!
I have been living in Germany for over 35 years: the first twenty years were in an almost totally german-speaking environment. I spoke maybe an hour of english in a month, otherwise I read, spoke and heard only german.
The result was, that I forgot a lot of english, and when I visited the UK I was often taken for a foreigner - I just didn't sound quite right, I had to keep searching for words.
Even my (later) MiL thought I "spoke good english for a foreigner" ;D
People who move to foreign countries, or even "foreign" counties have two choices:
- encapsulation or assimilation.
Encapsualtion means you join the "colony" there and carry on talking the way you always did, among people who talk the same as you do. (you don't "go native").
Assimilation means you fit in with the new, and as I did, you gradually forget the "old" because the otherwise constant reinforcement/refreshment isn't there.
So to come back to the original question:
if the emigrants are with a colony of others from the same region, then they will retain their accents or brogues or dialects - for a while - but the longer they live in the new land, and the more they spread out, then the more likely they are to forget the "old" accents and take on the new.
Add to this the fact that many will deliberatley drop an "old" accent in order to assimilate better into a new country, or a new life, then I guess that in the course of a couple of hundred years, apart from small colonies of who have always stayed together, the individual accents will grow more and more like those of the "host" country/county, with just a few "family" words and phrases being left.
Bob
ps.
After I met my wife (scottish) I started speaking english every day again, and my english improved dramatically (constant refreshment, just from being in an english speaking environment).
Although even now, I still have occasions where I use a word, that suddenly springs to mind, and I think: "that's a good word, I haven't used that one for over thirty years !!!"
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I remember Ken Barlow's twins in Coronation Street had a strong Scots accent as kids* but, when they returned from Glasgow as grown ups some years afterwards, had a Lancs accent.
(*They were brought up be relatives in Scotland after Val died.)
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;) ;) ;) No matter who you are or where you are from you CANNOT lose an accent. You may stop using it, but someone else will start using it -- you always know where it is/was/came from -- therefore it is not lost-- just misplaced or misused or unused, and can be brought back into use at any time
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Can I just remind folks that Pam was talking about a period of 170 years - three or four generations ago!
Justin
Amother reminder! ;D
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I was born in Glasgow and spent the first four years of my life learning to speak there.
I came to Australia with my parents and within a very short time of beginning school I had lost my accent. Trying to fit in as a little girl was the reason...people were always correcting me "it's not sumbuddy, it's someBODY" is one I recall.
My parents still speak with their accents but when they go back to Glasgow, they are told they have an Australian accent. To my own ear, it was nowhere near as broad as the Glasgow natives, but still there and sometimes still broad enough to be difficult for people in Australia to understand. They have had to modify their accents a bit over the years, so they could be understood.
Well....I agree with the poster who said we never lose our accents, we just don't USE them. My family seems to be proof of this. I and my late brother, having first learnt to speak with the Scottish accent, were/are able to 'put it on' any time. In fact for some extremely odd reason, I have always spoken to my pets and babies with a Scottish accent. But my youngest brother, born in Australia, and never having learned the Scottish brogue, sounds like any other Aussie trying to put the accent on.....awful! ;D
Nina
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Why does accent make a difference?
As fas as I'm concerned - once a Scotsman, always a Scotsman.
It's not what comes out of your mouth or how it sounds, it's what comes from your heart.
Anne
probably to understand you need to be in those shoes.
though my case is extreme - english is my second language.
can you hear my accent when you read this? :)
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As far as Pam's original question is concerned, the influences on the people in her family would have been very different than they are today.
I don't know how literate they were but if they couldn't read, the "local" use of written language wouldn't have influenced the way they used language - and vice versa if they could.
In modern times, one of the biggest influences over people's use of spoken language has been radio and later television. In the early 1980s, academics were scrambling to reach elderly people without television or radio in their homes, in an attempt to record their accents and the way they used language. They knew that in another generation the local dialects would be altered.
On the internet you can find recordings such as that of a road sweeper in Wotton under Edge, who spoke with such a broad local accent that I can barely understand her (and I have lived here for most of my life, save a few years in the middle).
Fascinating topic.
A ;)
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I do not think that a foreign accent could persist in a family for 170 years. Perhaps a few words and expressions might be retained as family peculiarities. Speech patterns are always affected by the surrounding speech environment, though people do vary in their ability to [perhaps unconsciously] mimic the local accent.
To take my own family as an example, my mother is English but has spent most of her adult life in the US [60 years]. She retains a slight English accent, though when she has returned to England her friends and family are shocked at how American she sounds. My father, the son of Americans, was born in a foreign country and spent his yearly years there in a bilingual environment; he speaks American English. My parents did not transmit any unusual accent to their children; we grew up speaking American.
My brother has lived for many years in Ireland and has lost a lot of his original accent; he sounds like an Irishman to me. I live in a Spanish speaking country and speak Spanish fairly well. I would never be mistaken for a native speaker but people have difficulty identifying where I am from because I have been able to pick up enough of the local accent to obscure my origins.
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I think you are right, Erato, in that some people either consciously or unconsciously "mimic" the accents which surround them, and others remain more unaffected.
I am from London, but lived for some years in Yorkshire, where everyone asked "where are you from" the moment I opened my mouth.
My children have, however, been very amused to hear me adopt a much more Yorkshire type of accent when speaking to my mother-in-law who is from Sheffield. It's not genuine Yorkshire, of course, but I sort of feel, when speaking to her, that I need to adopt something of her way of speech.
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I can add some examples from famous people.
Bobby and Jack Charlton were both brought up in Ashington and to me Jack always sounded Geordie, but Bobby had one of those accents that could be from anywhere else in the North. I think it might be because Bobby moved to Manchester at an early age but Jack didn't move away till later.
Lulu found fame at a very early age and her Glasgow accent was replaced by a Southern English one, though she can "do" a Scots accent as required. Cilla Black on the other hand was somewhat older when she left Liverpool and still sounds Scouse.
Though Henry Kissinger always spoke English with a German accent, his younger brother who moved to the US at the same time apparently had no such accent.
So it might depend on what age you were when you left your home area. I knew some 18 and 19 year olds who tried to lose accents when they became students, not always successfully. (If you want to parody a Northerner tying to talk posh, the way to do it is to superimpose long A's in the "grass" words onto a Northern accent.)
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I was hoping Lulu wouldn't be amongst those you were going to mention chris!
I cringe whenever I hear her becoming 'herself' again.
Unfortunately, I get the feeling that when people try to diguise their own accents, they're somehow embarrased or ashamed of their Roots and I'm afraid that doesn't go down well with me - not for either of those reasons anyway.
Anne
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Turning it the other way around - where did the Australian accent come from? Why didn't tall the immigrants to the new country just continue speaking how their ancestors always did?
Carole
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Turning it the other way around - where did the Australian accent come from? Why didn't tall the immigrants to the new country just continue speaking how their ancestors always did?
Carole
I've read somewhere (and please don't ask for refs!) that the Oz accent is based on the way the immigrants talked at the time and that it's our accents that have evolved more. Likewise the American accent with a bit of influence from Irish and German. The reason they (and the Irish and Scots) pronounce all their Rs and we don't is that we started dropping some of ours (unless you're from the West Country, m'dear) but before most Australian migration. Likewise, saying "grass" words with a long A is an affectation a mere two centuries or so old - that we northerners disdain.
"The Accents of English" by John Wells (all three volumes of it) is a mine of information but needs so much space for descriptions that there's no room for theories about origins. Sorry, I know this is the Lighter Side but it's in danger of going Totally Off Topic.
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The American Language, by H.L Mencken, gives a good history of English in North America and how it came to deviate from British English. Be prepared though, he is very disdainful of the mother tongue. But that's fair enough; the English were turning up their noses at American speech within 100 years of the landing at Plymouth Rock.
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My Granny's Aunt and Uncle had lovely soft Ayrshire accents in their 80s. They lived in London. I was very suprised when I began to study the family history to find that they had left Scotland in 1912, 12 and 14. They remained close with their siblings all their lives, so I guess that helped maintain their accents.
My OH, born and bred in York, left to join the army aged 14. His Yorkshire accent his very slight - until he goes to Yorkshire or talks to a member of his family.
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It might be interesting to note, at this point - and with reference to the "Australian" accent ... that there are subtle differences between the accent found in New South Wales, for example, and the accent found in Victoria. From what others have said about the "long A" sound ... perhaps Melbourne was settled by a larger number of Scottish and northern settlers?
It's fairly common to hear the short "A" in words like "grass", or "castle", in Victoria, and the longer "A" in NSW. Victorians also pronounce both vowels in words like "spear" - to us in NSW it sounds like "spee-ar".
I'm led to believe that regional accents are developing in the other states, as well. ???
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It's very possible. IIRC Wells in his book says the main difference in Oz is between rural and urban accents, but that was written 20+ years ago. I do remember that he wrote that some of the "long a" words are "short a" there, probably because they acquired the long sound in English later than the others, after the main Australian settlements were established.
I gather new American accents are evolving too. I'd really only recognise New England (halfway to English English) Southern, and New York/Brooklyn (influenced by immigrants) but apparently there are mid-Western and others. Then there's Canada. To me, Canadians sound more or less American, but to Americans they sound more like English (as do Australians). I think your ear for an accent depends on you how far away it is from your own and ones you hear every day - you'd pick up more differences between yours and a nearby one than you would between two that were both very different anyway.
In south-east England the reverse is happening in that the rural accents are disappearing under the twin onslaughts of a sub-Cockney - because so many Londoners were dispersed to new towns outside the capital - and Received Pronunciation or "posh" because people like to sound educated and this accent is native to this area anyway. By RP I don't mean the upper-class accent of aristocrats, which has been guyed so often it's on the way out, but the pronunciation of newsreaders, some academics and professionals. To my ear a new "student" accent has evolved which is different to this, but then I live in a University town.
Wells does say that accents evolve all the time, quoting Cockney as particularly innovative, though Scouse is another to my ear. Not only is the London speech of Dickens and others long gone, but even that of Shaw in Pygmalion/My Fair Lady is out of date. But then most working-class Londoners don't speak Cockney (east end) but a variant of it, and I believe South London is starting to differ from north of the Thames.
There's endless scope for discussion here.
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Deb D,
It's not as simple as that!
In Victoria, back in my day, if you were from the 'lower' class (went to a Govt school) you said dance and castle but if you were from the 'upper' class (went to a private school) you said darnce and carstle - and if you had pretensions, you used the long 'a' wherever you came from!!
I and my family lived in the USA for a year when my children were pre-teen. My daughter (middle child) returned speaking pure American - no other member of the family did!
The Australian accent however is an interesting one. One wonders where it did come from ... Yes, there might be some slight regional variations but Australia-wide it's unmistakeable.
JAP
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For a country as small as Scotland, there are dozens of different 'twangs' as we call them. From the north in the Shetlands to the Borders, then out on the West Coast Islands - the variety is quite amazing.
My favourite one has got to be from the Islands though - lovely!
Anne
P.S. I remember when Rab C. Nesbit was to be broadcast 'south of the border' - the BBC considered using subtitles!!
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history-itself doesn't seem to have checked back for replies to this post but can say that my husband speaks with an Ayrshire accent as did his parents and many other people in this part of Co. Londonderry. My husband's family have probably been in Ulster since 1600s but when we go to Scotland he's asked where in Ayrshire he's from.
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My OH's parents are Irish, although his mum was born in Pembroke Dock. I guess technically speaking OH is Irish, or would you say first generation English? Ooops what a tangent.
While OH's dad still speaks with a clear North Irish accent (despite living in England for 40 something years), OH doesn't appear to have an accent at all. Yet family gatherings and he slips into a North Irish accent without even noticing.
OH's (older) sister doesn't have an accent and neither do her children.
Ah and when I say "doesn't have an accent", well I guess we do have a midlands accent to anyone not living in the midlands ;)
Here there is a very mixed attitude to using the long or short "a" in words such as grass. I personally use the short version simply because I say it how it's spelled grass instead of grarss, while my grandparents (who raised me) use the long version.
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A few years ago, our motor home brike down in the North East of Scotland. The mechanic who came out to us was locally born and bred and not in the first flush of youth.
He started to ask us about the problem. My partner's eyes glazed over and he developed a look of utter panic. He couldn't understand a word the man said.
It took a few minutes for me to search the dusty archives of my brain and to home in to the incredibly strong accent and dialect, one which I hadn't heard in over forty years, since my grandad died. But it was there, lurking in the depths of my knowledge and I very soon adjusted to the mechanic's speech and was able to translate for my bewildered partner who, in his innocence, thought that he was in an english speaking country!
But I think it proves that, once there, the sound and patterns of a particular region's speech are with us for life. We may adapt to wherever we happen to live but we never completely forget what we learned as a child.
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Phair wair ye? Phawt brogue? Buchan Doric?
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Broke down in Stonehaven but the mechanic came from somewhere a bit further south. We had to wait forever!
;D
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When we were in Canada a few years back we met a Scottish lady who lived there. Her Scottish accent was still just that a Scottish accent, even though she told us she had left Scotland over 40 years previously.
I think I have a Northern accent, but it is not as strong as my few relatives who still live in the North, and in fact I've been asked many times if I come from Derby. ;D I did live there but only for about 5 or so years.
Our youngest son was born in Gloucester. When he was 11 we moved to Surrey and his new friends asked him why he spoke like a country yokel. When he was 16, we moved to Wiltshire and his new friends there asked why he spoke so posh. ::) It seems you just can't win.
Our son who has lived in USA for about 20 years has a slight American accent, but mainly because of the words he uses, but once back over here, he loses it totally and speaks normal English again.
Lizzie
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;)
I am a South Australian
When speaking with Eastern Seaboard Australians several
sounds jar my ear
Dance My accent uses the long vowell
School My accent is different and the easterners sound like Skoo-ell
Grant is grarnt
Chant is charnt
The short A sounds very flat to my ear
My forebears were out of Wiltshire and god knows what they sounded like
Alf
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Interesting topic. My son joined the army and every time he came home on leave we could tell what region his latest mate came from as our son 'adopted' their lingo, not deliberately, he just couldn't help it. His father used to say that if it was him he would have the whole regiment speaking like a true Yorkshire man instead of him imitating Scots, Geordie, Liverpudlian etc.
Also I lived my early years in Southern Ireland. All family accounts state that I had a 'soft Irish brogue' when I came back to England at the age of 4.
I know I speak with a broad Yorkshire accent now, though I do still get asked in some parts of Yorkshire and Lancashire where on earth do I come from. Strangely enough many new acquaintances have told me, without knowing my background that I have an 'Irish look about me'.
So what is that all about I wonder? What is an Irish look?
Pennine
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Pennine
What you said about having 'an Irish look' made me think about a phrase I remember my mum using years and years ago. She would say - "they've got a face like the map of Ireland". What exactly she meant I'll never know!
Anne
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This is an interesting topic... I am an American who has lived in Australia for 10 years now. I find it interesting how to American's I sound a bit Aussie, but to Australian's its obvious I am North American... I say that because most of them think am Canadian! And truthfully there are some Canadian accents that arn't obviously much different from my Eastern Iowan accent, so even I can't tell LOL!
But what is funny is when sometimes I get asked if I am from Ireland! But this is usually when I am speaking in a certain way that I do when I am in a certain mood. It's not put on it's just me at times, hard to explain.
Accents vary from region to region depending on the predominate heritage of the inhabitants. So if an area is predominantly Scottish then the accent would make up a great deal of the new accent that get's created in that area. But say new people with different accents start to populate the area then this will be incorporated as down through several generations to 'evolve' the accent.
What I find interesting is that with Australia there are a great deal of accents and for me it's pretty hard to pin them down to regions, because to me everyone one seems to have a different accent... there are times when I encounter people unrelated in geographic location who to me sound the same. My husband for instance has a very mellow Aussie accent, by association with me most who don't know him assume he is American too. He has also been asked if he is French Canadian... which was interesting. After 6 mos in the states he will start sounding more American. I on the other hand have only picked up certain phrases and a few words that I purposely have changed how I pronounce because there is something about being too obviously american....like I now say herb instead of erb (for herb) and I say Tomato with a soft a rather than a hard a. But I have noticed when I am talking with a visiting American my accent gets really strong!
I also must add this.... to me women have different accents to men in Australia. I know that is weird but that's what I feel I am hearing. Oh and interestingly enough with the ethnic groups that have migrated here in the 1950s 1960s I notice a certain accent developing with their descendants as it melds with the existing Aussie accent... which I find really interesting... I guess it's that development of an accent in action that kinda intrigues me!
Thanks for bringing up such an interesting topic!
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I know why the Australian accent is so different - it's because we don't open our mouths too much in case we swallow a fly!
Bev
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LOL especially this time of year ...
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WE CAME OUT FROM THE MIDLANDS UK IN 1968
I AM STILL ASKED IF I AM A VISITOR TO AUS
SYLVIA
MIND YOU IT TOOK A LONG TIME TO GET RID OF
HEY UP ME DUCK ARE YOU ARAIGHT
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That/s funny cuz I just assume those with a British accent have migrated here and arn't just visiting! (which reminds me of the days long ago when I couldn't tell the difference between an Aussie and British accent.... hard to believe!)
That's one thing I love about living in Australia is the diversity of ethnic backgrounds all around me.
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I am a born and bred Northumbrian and speak "Pitmatic" a type of speech found around the coal mining areas here.. a mix of Geordie/Northumbrian and an accent all of its own. My maternal grandparents were also from this area, but they spoke with a Northumbrian rolling R, similar to german accent, and you don't hear that very often now.
My Dad was born and brought up in Edinburgh, but living here for the last 50 odd years, he speaks like we do until he speaks to his brother in Scotland on the phone and then he is instantly speaking in the Edinburgh "twang"....as for my poor South Australian husband..he is slowly getting to understand us all! He pronounces many words like someone from the South of England (barth/bath, carstle/castle, loyt/light etc..so much so that one of his workmates asked him "which part of the South are you from?" and he replied "Australia mate!"....."Wow! That IS a long way south!" was the reply.....
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Does anyone wonder, like me, what accents their ancestors had, especially the ones who moved from, for instance, Cumbria (as it is today), to Hull. Others from Suffolk/Norfolk to Hull, Hull to Manchester etc.
For some reason, I imagine them having very strong accents, like you hear sometimes on old recordings on TV and radio.
Lizzie
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My great aunt moved from London to Norfolk in the 1920's when she married a Norfolk man in her 20's. I recall in the 60's that her accent was pure Norfolk.
OH fled South Africa in the 70's when it was not good to have an accent from the apartheid country, and deliberately learned Southern English, and now speaks better than I do!
meles
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I moved from Scotland to the States 30 years ago, but I still have my Scottish accent. I don't consciously try to keep it, it is just still there. More so when I get of plane in Edinburgh.
On the other hand my sister moved to Australia and she is Aussie to the core, my brother moved to England and he has a English accent.
My children have moved around the world with us they don't have a Scottish accent but they understand the lingo.
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I remember quizzing my Dad about this. We all have broad Scots accents (living south of the border hasn't affected mine except for slowing down slightly and pronouncing things clearly so I can be understood)
Anyway as part of my research I was quizzing my Dad and he was trying to tell me his Grandad was English. But he wasn't as I already had his birth details and had found him in the census listed as being local. Turns out his Mum was Irish and Dad was English (Worcestershire). So it explains why he had an unusual accent and was singled out for not sounding 'local' even though he was!
However I don't think any of the Irishness or Worcestersherishness has filtered down as far as me. However I somehow knew that as part of my research (before quizzing my Dad ) that we werent completely from the borders of Scotland despite the remaining 7/8 of me being pure Scottish border stock....
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I think it varies, my grt aunt and uncle emigrated to Australia in 1969 from Gloucestershire with their 2 small children. They came over last summer and my aunt and uncle have an extremly strong west country accent, in which you couldnt tell they had lived abroad. My cousin (their son) who is 40, sounded completley Australian, with not a hint of Gloucestershire in his accent.
My mum left Wiltshire, where she grew up in 1985 and has lived in the South East since and is still told from time to time that shes 'not from round here' when she meets new people! Although she doesnt retain as much of her accent, she still has words and phrases which she uses e.g Daps for Plimsolls/Gym Shoes which I myself and others have no idea what she's talking about. (This ties in with the regional words thread a few posts below)
As already stated, I think if you make a conscious effort to keep your accent and dialect, and integrate with others who speak the same, you will. But if you adopt your new local accent and dialect you can lose it easily.
acceber - (bread in the south east but slips quite easily into a west country accent when in the company of her broad Bristolian relatives!)
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My cousin (their son) who is 40, sounded completley Australian, with not a hint of Gloucestershire in his accent.
this is quite common here. The accent is lost with children of migrants from the UK. I think it's more n' likely because the accents here are really made up of the variety of UK accents.
This makes me wonder about my daughter who is 2 1/2, as to what her accent will be. We have always assumed she would get an Aussie accent because she lives here. Right now though she sounds like me sometimes with certain words and sometimes she says things that are more Aussie. We plan on home schooling her so her accent should be a melding of the two of us (and since DH's accent is very mellow I think she will have a nice accent)
Now here's something I completely forgot to mention in my earlier post... this is ironic... I've lived in Oz for over 10 yrs now and have only changed my accent a little, I go back to visit my parents who live in southern missouri (I was raised in Iowa) and I immediately start talking with a major twang! I can't help myself... I try not to do it but I do! And sometimes I catch myself mimicking various accents without trying... but I can't for the life of me do a real Aussie accent!
I am starting to pick up on the various accents from Britain since I have friends from London (who sound different from one another so I assume this means they are from different parts of the city) and I have a friend from Manchester, and some from Plymouth. But I hear of all these other places and would love to know what the accents are. I have ancestors from all over both Scotland and Britain, it would be great to know what they sounded like!
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I have been in the US for a little over 40 years. When I first came, I worked in a factory in Chicago and I was TOLD by one of my American co-workers - Oh, you're Irish! I said "No, I'm not."
She said,"YES, YOU ARE! You talk just like my neighbor and she's from Ireland."
I was born and raised in Birmingham! I'm a Brummie! LOL
My children were little tiddlers when we came - 6 - 4 - and 3 months. All of them speak with an American accent. When I go home to England, my family think I speak like a Yank - but people here can still tell that I'm a furrerner! LOL I don't mind.
So - accents don't even last one generation - the children pick them up from their peers, school, friends and carry them along. But - I think that once you have gone past about 25 years old, it's difficult to erase the dialect. AND, when I get round a bunch of Brummies - I am in 7th heaven! Ow Yow doin? Aright ar kid?
IPA
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What gets me is that I am a born and bred Australian, but the first time we holidayed in the UK everyone we spoke to asked how long since I had left England - but the part the got me was that my husband came to Australia when he was 10 and the usual joke when he spoke 'was do you want a Fosters'.
Bev
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Hi,
mariahswind regarding your 2 1/2 yr old daughter and you wonder what accent will she have. I have a son who has just turned 3 last month, both myself and his dad have Welsh accents ( I've been living here in Aus for almost 12 years and before that in Asia for 5 years and still have my Welsh accent :) ). My son does not have a Welsh accent at all that I can hear, which is surprising as we are his sole carers, and we were the ones who taught him to speak.
It doesn't sound Australian either to my ears, but an English accent , which is odd as we do not know anyone here with any of the English accents . I think he must be picking up a mixture of Aussie and Welsh which is sounding very English to my ears .
I fully expect him to develop an Aussie accent when he is in schooling years and mixing a lot more with other children. I do find it strange at such a young age that he is ,he hasn't developed my own and his dad's accent when we are the ones that caring for him full time at the moment.
Children are much more likely to lose their accents than adults in any country from my own experiences, Expat children (school age) lose it just as fast in Asia as they do here in Aus . Children are still developing their language skills, whilst most adults are not . They tend to pick up a new lingo very quickly and drop the old.
P.S my own Welsh accent is from my childhood local town and not from my parents accents ( one parent has an Irish accent, the other parent has a Neath Valley Welsh accent which is a different accent to my own Welsh accent)
Kind Regards:)
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Hi Cell,
An employer I had a few years ago is welsh and it took me forever to understand him.... but I love his accent more than anything it is very lilting/lyrical! Don't know what part of Wales he is from.... he went to school with welsh actress Nia Roberts (giving me a less than 6 degree of separation from Ioan Gruffudd, my favorite actor).
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I am a Lancastrian born and bred, but I must admit that the
regional accent has become diluted over the years, My Fathers
accent is much stronger than mine, and my Grandmother I always
understood - same town of my birth - UNTIL she started to reminise
about her Mother and her youth.
ALL these generations came from the same regional area of the
North West of England so Can an accent be lost?
I think the dilution of accent maybe due to outside influences
i.e Media but also to the fact that be just want to "fit in" be
accepted , be able to communicate with their peers.
Jinks
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You lot have stimulated me to do some research on the Australian accent and its subtle regional variations!
What I've observed, living in Oz, is that Scots and Irish people in particular never lose their accents - English people, to some (varying) extent. Australians very often adopt the accent of where they are living when they go abroad - however, my brother, who has been in England for 40 years, still has his Australian accent but with a cultivated English veneer!
There is a distinctive Aboriginal accent, and other ethnic groups sometimes have their own accents.
And I've noticed that NO non-Aussie can ever do an Aussie accent satisfactorily! A number of American and English actors have tried, and failed, also others. Wonder what it is about our accent that makes it so difficult to copy? English people end up sounding like Cockneys!
MarieC
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marie, you are so right about no one else being able to copy an aussie accent and how easily aussies in most situations tend to loose theirs to some extent when living away from Oz. There is this new show on foxtel called Eureka and there is this american actor (did max headrome actually) whose portraying an aussie character and his accent is so funny!
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I moved from Glasgow to Melbourne 5 years ago,my daughter who at the age of 3 and a half exchanged her Glasgow accent for an Aussie one within 6 months .
Me, still got the Glasgow accent though I have had to slow down for the Aussies to catch up!
Wife,s Aussie accent has got stronger though still with a Glasgow twang!
ps,Mariahswind
SNAP!! we have the same Anderson Crest,
Stand Sure,
Billy.
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... And I've noticed that NO non-Aussie can ever do an Aussie accent satisfactorily! ...
MarieC, so very true! I wonder why this is! And what it is that gives it away!
I think that South Africans (should that be Sooth Efricans!) also have a giveaway accent.
New Zealanders too.
There's always a giveaway with Aussies! Which any Aussie can immediately pick. But what is it?
MarieC, like you say, aboriginal Aussies do seem to have a particular accent. As do Aussies of derivations like Italian, Greek, Lebanese, etc, etc. But that distinctive Aussie accent is there regardless. I have an Italian born, Aussie raised friend, who is picked as Italian in France but Aussie in Italy!!
My own people came to Oz going back to 1841 and, at the latest, the 1890s. From various backgrounds - Scots, Irish, London, Yorkshire, Lancashire, via NZ, etc, etc.
My accent has been picked by non-Australians as broadest Australian, as superior classy English, etc, etc.
But I'm sure that any fellow Aussie would have picked me immediately as Australian (even though they might have made a class distinction!).
I - like all Aussies - can always pick someone whose Australian accent is not truly Australian. We shall see ...
For instance, Meryl Streep didn't do a bad job as Lindy Chamberlain - but her accent was quite hopeless to any Australian audience.
And the Aussie accent creeps through despite the Americanisms and other accents/words of various Aussie TV and film stars like Julian McMahon, Nicole Kidman, etc, etc ...
JAP