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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Suffolk Lookup Requests => Suffolk => England => Suffolk Completed Lookup Requests => Topic started by: Dean K on Tuesday 02 September 08 22:40 BST (UK)
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Hi, I am trying to find birth details of my Paternal Great Grandparents - John William Frank KENT and Emma BROWN, who were married on 3rd Nov 1892 at St. John's Church, Lowestoft.
According to the 1901 census – John (who called himself Frank for this census) was born c1865, Emma was born c1867, both in Lowestoft (these dates also tie in with the Marriage Cert – although out by a year because of when the census was taken). From their Marriage Cert. - John's Father was also called John, a sailor, and Emma's Father was called Frederick, a traveller.
Neither of their births appear in the GRO index, I’ve drawn a blank with the census returns, so I’m hoping the parish registers will give me the answers. I had hoped to get to Lowestoft sometime this year, but it doesn’t look like I’ll be able to find time now, so thought I’d give the forums a try.
Thanks in advance,
Dean.
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Hi and welcome to Rootschat
I have had a look at all male Kent entries on the 1871 census who were b Suffolk between 1863-1877 and found this entry (not very helpful though)
Town Farm South Elmham St Margaret
John Kent 61 ag labourer b Bungay
Esther 59 b Westhall (?)
Francis 6 grandson b Lowestoft
RG10; Piece: 1774; Folio: 56; Page: 3
I can't find a birth entry on freebmd for a Francis Kent
1861 census South Elmham St Margaret
John Kent 51 b Bungay
Esther 51 b Northall (?)
Jemima 22 b All Saints Suffolk
Mary Ann 11 b All Saints Suffolk
William 9 b All Saints Suffolk
Jacob 7 b All Saints Suffolk
James Peake 27 son b St Nicholas Suffolk
George Peake 22 son b St Nicholas Suffolk
James Button 71 boarder b Alderingham, Suffolk
RG9; Piece: 1184; Folio: 38; Page: 11;
1851 census South Elmham St Margaret
John Kent 41
Esther 40
Robert 18
Jemima 12
John 6 born All Saints
Mary Ann 1
HO107; Piece: 1804; Folio: 38; Page: 2
JOHN KENT to ESTHER HARVEY Marriage: 26 MAR 1832 South Elmham Saint Cross Suffolk
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There is a John Kent marriage on freebmd in the December qtr of 1865. There is an uneven number of male/female entries so the only female shown is Ann Canham
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Hi Carole,
Thanks for the welcome.
Many thanks for looking those up. I have searched the census returns quite extensively, but, although there are a few potential entries, I’ve not found any that really fit. The John (6) in the 1951 census is a possibility for my GG Grandfather, who went on to be a Sailor, but, at this stage, I can’t confirm that, so I’ll have to wait and see if that fits in later on.
I’ve trawled through the GRO birth index several times now, and have drawn a blank every time. They should be there, being born after 1837, but prior to the mid 1870's it wasn't compulsory to register a birth and many parents just opted to have their children baptised – so hopefully the answers will lie in the parish registers.
Thanks again for your time and efforts,
Regards,
Dean.
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Take a look at the following census entry in Lowestoft in 1871.
RG10; Piece: 1780; Folio: 105; Page: 5;
an Emma Brown, aged 5yrs with a couple called Prettyman.
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There is an Emma Brown of the correct age in Lowestoft in 1891, she is listed with a baby called Violet.
RG12; Piece: 1494; Folio 5; Page 3
Could this be your Emma and could she have had a baby before marriage.
I can't see this Violet in 1901, there is a death for a Violet Alice Brown in the Dec. qtr of 1891,Mutford, which could be her.
Taken from the Lowestoft Cemetery Index.
http://www.waveney.gov.uk/Environment/Cemeteries/cemeteries_index.htm
Violet Alice Brown, buried 28th December, 1891, aged 16 months, child of Emma Brown (single woman). = address = 123 Wollaston Road, Lowestoft.
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Take a look at the following census entry in Lowestoft in 1871.
RG10; Piece: 1780; Folio: 105; Page: 5;
an Emma Brown, aged 5yrs with a couple called Prettyman.
Hi suffolk*sue,
I have a copy of that entry, and I would love to think that is my Great Grandmother. Everything fits – her age, birthplace and the name of her brother; Frederick (possibly named after their Father). It’s just a shame they are only ‘visitors’ and no more information can be gleaned. That particular entry is the closest I’ve got to finding them – both families are very illusive! Maybe their Father’s occupations took them away from home and the children ended up moving around relatives – I don’t really know, but it’s very frustrating!
Many thanks for your time looking,
Regards,
Dean.
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What was the address for Emma on the marriage cert and also what were the witnesses names?
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There is an Emma Brown of the correct age in Lowestoft in 1891, she is listed with a baby called Violet...
Hi suffolk*sue,
Now, this is interesting! I also have a copy of that entry, which I’ve had for some time, but not looked at for a while. I’ve even looked at that cemetery index, but missed that connection. The census address is the same, so it has to be the same person.
The really exciting bit is, after John & Emma were married, their 5th child (which I’ve only recently found) was born in 1904 and called Violet Lilian KENT – coincidence? I don’t know! How common is the name Violet? Again though, if it is her in the 1891 census, she is a boarder - so I still can’t get any further information from that.
I’ll have a look now (really should be working!) to see if I can find Violet’s birth entry in the GRO. It may well be worth sending for the cert. It won’t tell me who Emma’s parents are, but it could well be another piece of the jigsaw.
Many thanks for that – you’ve opened up another avenue of investigation – the quest continues!
Dean.
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This looks like it.
Violet Alice Brown
1890
Sep. qtr.
Mutford
Vol. 4a
Page: 928
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What was the address for Emma on the marriage cert and also what were the witnesses names?
The witnesses of the marriage were Kate BROWN and Thomas HALES – I’ve found a couple of possibilities for them in the census returns, but nothing conclusive. Although, in the 1891 census, a Thomas HALES lived next door to a family of BROWNs. I’ve not followed that one up, but the head of that family was a Mary BROWN, who was 33 – so too young to be Emma’s Mother – maybe a Sister though!
Their addresses at the time of the marriage were – 8 Raglan St, Lowestoft for Emma and Rerigate St (that’s how it’s spelt – but I suspect Raingate St), Bury St Edmunds for John. Again I’ve looked them up on the census returns, but drawn a blank.
Dean.
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This looks like it...
You beat me to it! – I was busy replying to your previous post ;).
Yes, that looks like the one. I think I’ll send for that; it’ll be interesting to see who the Father was – was it John KENT?
Many thanks for your help,
Dean.
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Hi Dean
I popped into the records office armed with the information above; to be honest I thought these would be straightforward lookups, being Lowestoft, especially as Lowestoft registers are transcribed and indexed.
However, I was to be disappointed.
I checked the St Johns and St Margarets registers for Kent / Brown baptisms c 1865/1867 to no avail. I didn't believe the transcript and also checked the fiche for St Johns!
I also looked at Kessingland, Pakefield, Kirkley and Oulton (indexed transcripts) but they don't appear to have been baptised there either.
I checked the two Lowestoft parishes for baptisms 1892 onwards for their children but could not find those either.
The marriage entry was at St Johns, as you said (I guess you probably have the certificate of that one).
In frustration I tried to follow the Violet Alice Brown route.
In the transcript of St Margarets, it has the baptism for Violet Alice Brown, born 6 Aug 1890, bap 1st October 1890, d/o Sidney and Emma Brown of 123 Wollaston Road (under occupation of father it says "trawler"). I also checked the fiche for this entry and it clearly says d/o Sidney and Emma.
However, could not see an obvious marriage for Sidney/Emma to see if she has a different maiden name but perhaps you might be able to find a GRO entry ??
As suffolk*sue says, the cemetery index clearly says Emma Brown singlewoman, but was Sidney away at sea, and a mistake was made in the transcription ??? ?
Sorry I could not help provide any more answers :(.
Best wishes
Anne
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Hi Anne,
Thank you so much for that, it’s very kind of you to give your time searching.
I was really hoping I’d find some answers in the parish registers, as they seem to be the only option left; after drawing a blank with the GRO and census returns.
I don’t know what to make of Emma and Sidney. On the 1891 census, Emma is down as being single, which ties in with the cemetery index. But, if this Emma was married to Sidney, and took his name, it doesn’t fit in with John & Emma’s marriage cert. where Emma’s Father is down as Fredrick Brown. Maybe they (Emma & Sidney) said they were married to avoid the shame of being unmarried with a child… I don’t know. Maybe this particular Emma is not related at all, and it’s just a coincidence that my Emma had a daughter, later on, also called Violet.
OK on looking for their children’s baptisms. Their first two children, Frank Henry Frederick Kent and Kathleen Olive Kate Kent, were both born at Kirkley addresses. By the time of the 1901 census the family had moved to Grimsby, where my Grandfather and two other children were born – I have all of their birth certs. Maybe I’ll post a mini tree on here when I get home – I find diagrams much easier to understand!
I’m not too familiar with the Lowestoft area parishes, but from what I know, after eliminating the parishes you’ve looked up, that leaves Lowestoft St Peters & Christ Church. And, in the immediate surrounding area, Gunton and Carlton Colville.
Many many thanks for your time and efforts Anne, it’s very much appreciated. You’ve certainly saved me some time there.
Best regards,
Dean.
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John and Emma’s tree for your info:-
http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l134/Dean_K/Fam%20Hist/Kent1.png
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Mods,
Please can you move this thread to ‘completed’.
To prevent this thread getting too long and complicated I’ll start a new, updated, thread to cover what has been discovered so far.
Thanks,
Dean.