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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Yorkshire (East Riding & York) => England => Yorkshire (East Riding & York) Lookup Requests => Topic started by: Lady emma on Tuesday 02 September 08 00:19 BST (UK)
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I am searching for a birth record for my grandfather James, problem is I don't know which last name he had at birth. His mother was Emma and he was born in May (narrowed down by his service records) 1888 in castleford. His mother at one point was with George Lilliman and then Thomas Davies. On his military records he is listed as James Powell and on his marriage certificate it's James Davies Powell.....quite a mystery. I have ordered Emma's marriage certificate to Thomas Davies in 1894 but have not received it yet. I am hoping it will give her maiden name. This has been a very perplexing mystery for me and any help would be much appreciated.
Karen
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Do you aready have 1891 details which show his surname as Liliman
8 Back Lane Monk Bretton
George Lilliman 53 coal miner b Sheffield
Emma wife 36 b Wiltshire Ludwell
Henry 13 b Wales Pontypool
Peter 9 b Old Manston Yorks
Bertha 4 b Castleford
James 2 b Castleford
RG12; Piece: 3776; Folio 73; Page 12
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Thank you, yes I do have that information. Unfortunately I can find no records of Bertha or James with the last name of Lilliman. Nor can I find a marriage between Emma and George........ ???
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Hi
I know what you mean. I checked under both Powell and Davies but no luck. Emma's true maiden name may well be the key if her married name was Powell and she had the children after Powell died
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Now it gets really confusing. If you noticed that Henry Lilliman was born in Pontypool Wales. On the 1871 census there is a Emma Davies with a son Henry of the right age in Glamorganshire, but she is married to either George or Thomas Davies. There is also a birth record on BMD for Bertha Davies in Castleford and the IGI lists her parents as Thomas and Emma Davies, but no record of James davies or otherwise.....Confused yet?
This is a mystery I have been working on for 5 years now and haven't gotten very far. If only I could find a birth record for James!
I tried ordering the marriage cert. for Thomas and Emma back in 1864 (I think that was the date) but GRO sent be back an e-mail saying those two were not on the same marriage cert. As far as I can tell by the census records George Lilliman always lived in MOnk Bretton and was Widowed before 1891. So was Emma and George ever married? or was she just living in his house? But then why was she married as Emma Lilliman to Thomas Davies in 1894. Hoping the certificate arrives soon!
Emma always lists herself as being born in Ludwell Wiltshire. I estimate her year of birth as 1855.
Any help would be great.
Karen
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Hi Karen
I looked up George Lilliman on the 1881 and no son Henry. There was just George and wife Hannah living in Old Manston
Now Henry was b 1877/78 Pontypool so will not be on the 1871 census (he was aged 13 in 1891)
I've checked the Welsh 1881 for all Henry's b Monmouth - mother Emma - but none fitted the profile. Same with the English 1881
I can't find a death for Hannah Lilliman between 1881-1891 or a marriage between George and Emma. I've looked under Lilleyman as well.
George Lilliman died in 1893 so Emma didn't hang around if she married Thomas Davies in 1894
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Well as you see I keep hitting brick walls :(
Emma was definately and interesting person. Thomas Davies dies in 1903 or 1904 and she remarried again after that to a Mr. Allen. On James Powell's military records (which I have full copies of... ;D) His next of kin is first listed in 1905 as Emma Allen, mother, then it changes to Thomas Henry Powell (Henry Lilliman?) then to my grandmother Ellen Marshall.
I have found a military record for Henry Powell Lilliman or Lilliman Powell. My mother remembers my dad having an uncle Tom and an Aunt Bertha that they went to see once in Rochale, but that's all she remembers. None of the family I'm in contact with have any other information. So here I am still digging ::)
Karen
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On the BMD I have found a James Powell born in Pontefract 3rd quarter 1881. Does anyone have access to parish registries to find out the parents?
Karen
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Hi Karen
Unfortunately it's not possible to look up births in that way - only if there was a baptism (you would need to know the church and dates etc)
James wasn't born 1881 - he was b 1888/89. He was 2 yrs old on the 1891 census
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Sorry too many dates running through my head :-[
Is it possible to find a baptism for him? On his service records he lists himself as Church of England.
I wish there was an OPC for somerset like there is for Dorset. It has been invaluable for finding my mothers family!
Karen
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Hi Karen
He was born in Castleford which came under Pontefract registration district.
I think you need to put this on the back burner until the marriage cert arrives. It may (or not) save you some time and effort
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Ok I have received Emma's marriage certificate to Thomas Davies. Her father is listed as James Lucas deceased. I checked the BMD and there is a James Lucas born 2nd quarter 1888. Can you look up the parish record for me?
As for Emma 1881 census:
Emma Lucas, 24, unmarried, housemaid in the Household of Jane Neely, Land proprietor.
Any help is greatly appreciated.
Thanks
Karen
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Hi Karen
I checked the BMD and there is a James Lucas born 2nd quarter 1888. Can you look up the parish record for me?
Where was this birth registered? There are 4 on freebmd in the June qtr but none in Pontefract
Unfortunately it's not possible to look up births in that way - only if there was a baptism (you would need to know the church and dates etc)
Was Emma shown as a widow on the marriage cert
Although her father is shown as deceased - is any occupation shown for him
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Yes Emma was listed as a widow on her marriage certificate to Thomas Davies. Her Father James Lucas was an Ag. labourer.
I have looked them up and found plenty on the James Lucas family in Wiltshire.
The birth record for James Henry Lucas is in Keighley, which it says is in the west riding of Yorkshire.
Record June 1888 9a 186
Any suggestions?
Karen
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Hi Karen
He was born in Castleford which came under Pontefract registration district.
Keighley is just one of many registration districts in the West Riding
Firstly - Although Emma's maiden name was Lucas, what you don't know is whether she married before she took up with George Lilliman. She certainly had children before Lilliman - Henry for one - so where was he in 1881 as you say you have found Emma unmarried in 1881. Henry was born 1878/79 but there is no corresponding birth on freebmd in Pontypool for a Henry Lucas. I would guess that Peter was pre-Lilliman as well but there is no Peter Lucas birth in Yorkshire 1881-1883
Both the 1891/1901 shows Emma b Ludwell Wiltshire whereas the 1881 entry you mention shows her b Donned and working in Kent
We can't find a Lilliman marriage to Emma but she re-married to Davies as Emma Lilliman
Here's what I think - but still to be proved
Emma Lucas married and had Henry and Peter - we haven't a clue who she married or where
She was then widowed (don't know when) and married George Lilliman. I suspect James was Lilliman's son
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I'm sorry I should have given you more info. on Emma before and during the time before she was with George Lilliman.
1871 census
Emma is visiting her Sister Jane Sanger in Wiltshire. She is listed a s a Domestic servant out of place. Which I assume means she works somewhere else not for her sister. Jane's husband Stephen Sanger a ag. lab.
1881
Emma is a Housemaid for the Neely family in Beckenham Kent. Listed as unmarried.
This made me wonder as Henry was born around 1878. So where was Henry Thomas? As a housemaid He certainly would be with his mother. And there is the fact that he was born in wales not England and that didn't make any sense. I began to wonder what Emma would have done with him and it occurred to me perhaps he was with her family.
So I checked to see where her only sister Jane Sanger lived. Well in 1881 Jane is living in Monmouthsire wales! Henry though was not living with her. I am now going to search her other siblings to see if I can find him.
As I stated earlier my grandfather James ended up with the name of James Davies-Powell. Strangely enough the next door neighbors to Emma's sister jane wre a Powell family. This my just be coincedence though.....
Still searching
Karen