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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Suffolk => Topic started by: LizzieW on Saturday 30 August 08 16:36 BST (UK)
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Some of my ancestors came from Halesworth and I will be visiting the area shortly and taking a trip to Halesworth.
I've been looking for a New Court and Mill Hill Street (Barrack Yard), but can only find New Cut on a map of Halesworth. However, after looking at more census, it appears New Cut and New Court are the same place. Mill Hill Street, appears to be the next place on the enumerators list. Does anyone know if it is still there? From the District 6 information on the 1871 census, it appears to be near to Bridge Street.
Also does anyone know if a place called Belvedere Cottage on Bungay Road is still there. I don't think it was actually a cottage as it was a boy's school at one time with 12 boys in 1861. Looking at the addresses of other places near to Belvedere Cottage, there was the Queens Head (New Inn), the railway station and the Brewers Arms. Another website says that part of Bungay Road is now Station Road.
Lizzie
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You will probably find this link of some use. It gives some of the places you seek and mentions old street. Just us the arrows on left hand side of page
http://www.suffolkcamra.co.uk/pubs/pub/2770&listpubs=yes
Not sure if that's how to insert hyperlink!!!!
It is - hurrah!
Pete
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Peter
That's great, thank you very much. I wonder if other local Camra groups have done the same thing? Off to see if Norfolk has.
Lizzie
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Lizzie,
I would like to know if you found anything more on Belvedere Cottage . My great grandfather Seymour Petre was listed on the 1861 Census also with his brother Arthur. The boys father (my ggg grandfather)John Berney Petre of Westwick enrolled them. I plan to fly over this year.
Stewart
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Hi Stewart
No we didn't find out anything more about Belvedere Cottage.
We were not sure whether parts of Bungay Road had changed its name, because on the census, on the page before Belvedere Cottage, also on Bungay Road is schedule 178 Queens Head, New Inn, schedule 179 E.C.R.Station (which I think was East Coast Railway which changed its name to East Suffolk Railway), schedule 180 is Brewers Arms. Belvedere Cottage is schedule no.183. Now unless there were two stations in Halesworth and I can't find another one in the history of Halesworth, then the Railway is now on Station Road and the road is divided by the railway line and the junction is permanently closed off. The New Inn is now the Conservative Club next to the station on Station Road. The other side of the railway line is Bungay Road.
So working from the station at 180 to Belvedere Cottage at 183, is should be just over the railway line on the right if you have your back to the railway line - if that makes sense. We didn't have time to drive all the way round (we thought we'd be able to drive over the railway) but looking on Google street map, there is a new road coming in from the right and a roundabout, just about where Belvedere Cottage would have been. There are modern properties around that area. The oldest properties I can see around the area look to date from the Victorian era.
If you go to http://www.halesworth.ws/museum/Economic%20&%20Social%20History%20of%20Halesworth.pdf you will be able to read all about the history of Halesworth. On page 52, it states that the railway came to Halesworth in1854 but in 1859 a permanent station was built on Bungay Road. Which ties in with what I said above.
On page 55 of the pdf there is an ordinance survey map of 1902 which shows one side of the railway as being on Station Road. Unfortunately, Bungay Road is on the left hand edge of the map and only a small part is visible. It just shows allotments. I would love to print the pdf but as it has 75 pages, it's a bit impractical.
There is a museum at Halesworth, which is next to the station (in the station yard), but unfortunately, it was closed the day we were in Halesworth.
I will try writing to the curator to see if he knows of any older maps of Halesworth showing Bungay Road in the 1850s/60s.
Interestingly on the 1871 census there is a William Bayes and family living at Belvedere Cottage which states that he is a farmer with 200 acres. So maybe the allotments shown on the 1902 census were part of the original 200 acres.
Lizzie
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Note for Stewart - The parish of Halesworth comes under the Lowestoft branch of the Suffolk Record Office. All records pertaining to Halesworth will be found there, although both Ipswich and Bury St Edmunds will also have parish records and census returns.
Pat ...
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Hi
Not sure if Belvedere Cottage and Belvedere House are the same place.
If you go to http://www.old-maps.co.uk/maps.html and search for Halesworth, then select the 1905 map.
Then enlarge the map and scroll north you can see Belvedere House marked on the junction of Bungay Road and what is now Harrisons Lane.
A look at Google map shows a large white house with some outbuildings at the back.
regards
yokel
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Hi Yokel
I don't think Belvedere House and Belvedere Cottage are the same place because as I mentioned in my reply to Stewart on the 1861 census Belvedere Cottage is very near to the station in Halesworth on the census, on the page before Belvedere Cottage, also on Bungay Road is schedule 178 Queens Head, New Inn, schedule 179 E.C.R.Station (which I think was East Coast Railway which changed its name to East Suffolk Railway), schedule 180 is Brewers Arms. Belvedere Cottage is schedule no.183. On the 1871 census, Belvedere Cottage becomes Schedule No.1 but is still only a couple of schedule numbers away from the station.
I've looked at a modern map and working from the station along Bungay Road (the other side nearer to the town is now called Station Road) it seems that there is a new road and housing plus a roundabout somewhere near to where I think the Cottage would have been. The other option, bearing in mind that in 1871 William Bayes, who lived at the cottage was a farmer with 200 acres, whereas the Cottage doesn't exist on 1881 census, is that the cottage and land was sold to enable the original Patrick Stead hospital to be built.
I had seen those Halesworth maps, but as the cottage seemed to have disappeared by 1884, the earliest map available on the Old Maps website, they didn't help me. Not only that, but the top of the 1884 map is below the station.
Lizzie
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Hello
I would assume by the response I will not be able to find any further information on the school. If I could side track here I posted a message looking for any help on (Petre Family from Westwick) and have had people looking but no real reply. Can someone give me a hint to where I can start my search when I fly over this year to find pictures of the Petre family or heirlooms I just have a hard time believing there is nothing left of this family besides the estate. Could someone please read my post and the story I have my heart into finding out all I can about my grandmother's family and try to understand how her father's father John Berney Petre could just cast off the children he had but still support them in secret. My other quest is to find out what is needed to have the records changed at the Norfolk National Archives as they state (John Berney Petre (1805-1882) had no issue) but he did and I'm living proof of this!
I'm I taking this too personal?
Administrative history:
There is a family tree of the Petre family in Norfolk Genealogy vol. 8. Westwick Hall came into the Petre family on the marriage of William Petre (d.1772) to Elizabeth, co-heir of John Berney of Westwick Hall. William's son, John Berney Petre (1741-1819) died unmarried and the property was bequeathed to his nephew, Jack Varlo (1773-1854), an army captain, who changed his name to Petre. His son, John Berney Petre (1805-1882) had no issue and Westwick Hall was passed to his niece, Mary Laura Duff (nee Dawkins) and then to her son, Captain Bernard James Duff. Both mother and son changed their names to Petre in 1882.
Thanks Anyone For Your Time ((Please read my My Grandmother's Laura Seymour (Petre) History Story to understand my passion in my quest)
Stewart
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Hi Stewart
It is probably better to re-post your enquiry about the Petre family on the Norfolk board.
I'm not sure anyone will be able to find out any more info than you have given in your grandmother's history story - which I found by googling the Petre name as you didn't give us a link.
You only have to read novels of the period to see how easily the head of the family could cast out members of the family he thought undesirable.
Lizzie
ps. Back to the original topic of the school, I have written to the curate of the Halesworth museum so, hopefully, should get a response within a couple of weeks (UK Bank holidays notwithstanding).
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Hi Lizzie
Have you looked at the enumerators discription page on the 1871 census, to see if it describes the route he took. I have looked at the 1861, but the route doesn't mention Bungay Road.
As you say the schedule nos. are close together between the Station and Belverdere Cottage, looking at the old map there were not many houses between the Station and Belvedere House.
Did you also notice on Google map for Belvedere House that the property on the other side of the road is Belle View Barns and on their web site they say that there has been a farm there for over a hundred years.
yokel
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This is a reply I've now received from the Chair of the Trustees of Halesworth Museum.
Belvedere Cottage/House
1840 Tithe Map & Apportionment:
On the corner of Bungay Road and Harrison's Lane, north of the built up area of Victorian Halesworth, a 2.5 acre field known as "South Longshanks" (Apportionment number 783) was owned and occupied by James Bloomfield. He also owned and occupied a 3.0 acre field "North Longshanks" next to it. Close to this spot the parieshes of Halesworth, Wissett, Spexhall and Holton met.
1823-1839 Trade Directories.
James Bloomfield was landlord of the "Hart White" in the Thoroughfare, Halesworth.
1840/61
In the census of 1841 James Bloomfield age 60 was described as a publican. He was still at the "White Hart" in 1851. In a trade directory of 1846 he is also described as a farmer, although he is not listed in any trade directory as a farmer in Halesworth, Wissett, Spexhall or Holton. By 1855 he appears to have retired from the pub business and was living in Pound Street.
Therefore the house that was built on a small part of 783 next to Harrisonn's Lane can be no earlier than 1852. A house was also built on a plot of land across the Bungay Road in the parish of Wissett. This house was later called "Wissett Place".
In the census of 1861, the house on 783 was called Belvedere Cottage. It was occupied by George Yallop a schoolmaster and was a school with more than 12 students. The house was brick built (white bricks) and symmetrical with a centre door and chimneys at each gable end. Apart from the 1861 census it has always been called "Belvedere House".
1868-1878. In a trade directory of 1868 the occupier of Belvedere House, Bungay Road was John Bayes a farmer. In the census of 1871 the occupier of "Belvedere Cottage" was William Bayes a farmer of 200 acres employing 5 men & a boy. In another trade directory of 1873, William Bayes was still occupying Belvedere House.
1879-1905. In trade directory of 1879 the occupier of Belvedere House, Bungay Road was William Curtis Chilvers. William continued to live there until 1905. The land for the Patrick Stead Hospital was purchased in 1880 for £200 from the Crabtree sisters who owned the Manor of Halesworth. The hospital land was never farmed by the Bayes family or owned by the Chilvers. The 1882-4 OS map of Halesworth (which can be viewed on line) shows that at the time the hospital was built, there were no other dwellings between the railway station and Belvedere House.
1906-1912. In 1905/6 F J Hilling an auctioneer's clerk, moved from Pound Street to Belvedere House.
Lots of things to check out now, but it seems that Belvedere Cottage and Belvedere House on Bungay Road, near to the station were one and the same place.
Lizzie
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Excellent result Lizzie, just more for you to research no doubt ;D
Pat ...
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I did a quick search for the 1882-4 OS map but I couldn't see enough of it. So I decided (as the details I received said that a Mr.Hilling moved to Belvedere House in 1905/6 that I would look at the enumerators book of the 1911 census. That clearly shows the station, then a few houses, then the hospital and then Belvedere House. So at least I know where it ought to be. The info I received states
at the time the hospital was built, there were no other dwellings between the railway station and Belvedere House.
which must mean no other buildings apart from the hospital between the station and Belvedere House.
A house was also built on a plot of land across the Bungay Road in the parish of Wissett. This house was later called "Wissett Place".
On Google street view there are bungalows where I think Belvedere might have been and also a field. Opposite the field, and suspiciously near to the parish of Wissett is a white double fronted house, not calle Wissett Place, but I would guess it might have been where Wissett Place was. I'll have another look on the 1911 census.
Lizzie
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Hi Lizzie
If you go to google map for Halesworth and go to the junction of Norwich Rd (A144) and Harrisons Lane you will find a white house with three windowes upstairs and one window either side of the porch down stairs and a conservatory on the righthand side, this is Belvedere House. :)
yokel
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Hi Lizzie
I have driven past the house I mentioned in my reply and it does have Belvedere House written on the porch
yokel
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I have been following the message and just to make sure I have the correct house.. Is this picture Belvedere House (Cottage) correct
Stewart
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Yokel
If the house Stewart has shown is Belvedere House, does that mean that Bungay Road is now Harrison's Lane? I had assumed it was what is now Old Station Road, so had been looking at the house on the opposite corner to the one in the photograph, as I assumed Old Station Road, would be where Bungay Road used to be. Nice house whichever one it is. I guess one of them is Wissett Place. However, looking at a google map of the station, the hospital etc. it's more obvious that Norwich Road (A144) cut across Bungay road and perhaps even incorported part of it.
Another mistake, as I'm used to searching for my ancestors in built up areas, (or at least addresses in the centre of villages), was that because Belvedere Cottage was next to the station on the census, I thought it must be fairly close to the station, whereas it is quite a way from the station. ::)
Lizzie
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Hi Lizzie and Stewart
Yes that is Belvedere House
The old Bungay Road comes from the Station up to the junction with Norwich Road turns right, then goes past Beloved House (marked as a red cross).
The A144 is the Bungay/Norwich Road
The part of the Norwich Road (turn left at the junction) back to the roundabout in the town is a relatively new road. marked yellow
Harrison Lane is shown as an unmarked road on the old maps and Wissett Place is on the old Station Rd.
regards
yokel
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Yokel
Thank you very much, it all makes sense now. I don't know why I'm not getting notifications from this thread, so I almost missed your reply. I'm going on holiday tomorrow so if I'd not found it you would have thought I was very ungrateful.
Lizzie
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You're welcome, have a good holiday
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You're welcome, have a good holiday
I thank you also.. I was not getting notifications from this thread either
Stewart