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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => London and Middlesex => Topic started by: Rosie May on Monday 25 August 08 14:49 BST (UK)
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This is my first posting so please bear with me as I am unsure if I am doing this correctly.
I have traced my Grandfather Frederick John Butler to the Lambeth Workhouse in 1906 (aged eight) with father Walter Butler (aged 58) and have all information since then to their respective deaths. My problem is I cannot find any birth record of Frederick John Butler being born to this man.
I have traced Walter Lovick Butler and his family with wife Jane and two sons, Walter O and Lionel G through all the following census : 1861, 1871, 1881, 1891 but in 1901 Jane is on her own with a Nurse Child Fred Talbot born abt 1899 in Kentish Town. Walter Lovick Butler is living as a boarder in Leicester.
I can find nothing to tie my Grandfather into this family at all and wonder if he was infact the Nurse Child with Jane Butler on the 1901 census?
My Grandfather always said he was brought up in an Orphanage in Lambeth without parents, but that his father was called Walter L Butler. He always thought his birthday was on 20th August 1898 and this is the date of birth given on his admittance to the Workhouse.
Can anyone please advise me how I could prove Fred Talbot and Frederick John Butler were infact the same person? Any help and ideas would be welcome as I have been trying to solve this mystery for nearly 3 years now.
I am sorry if this is too long but couldnt explain any other way. Hope it makes sense to you all.
Thank you to any one who may reply.
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;D Welcome to the board, told you you could do it...
lynda
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Free BMD have a Frederick John A Butler birth registered Camberwell Jun Qtr 1898 ref 1d 808
Suggest you get this and see if there is a tie in
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Thanks Beady - have already investigated that one but no connection I'm afraid.
I havent been able to find any Frederick John Butler born with a father called Walter L Butler to match the details given on admittance to Lambeth Workhouse.
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Thanks for your help Lynda - couldnt have done it without you LOL
xxxxxxxxxxxx ;D
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Can't help for definite but putting possible scenarios in (please don't take offence at the suggestions)
On the 1891 census Walter & Jane's 2 other sons are 14 and 13, by 1901 is it possible that one of them, Walter jnr ?, has fathered a child (with Miss Talbot) who is living with Jane, I think a 20 year age gap between Walter jnr, Lionel and Frederick is not biologically impossible but unlikely (by 1901 Jane was 51, a bit late in life for another child)
The other possible scenario is that Walter Snr is his father but he has a different mother and Jane is looking after him. Maybe Leicester was where he was in 1901 but he could have been anywhere in the country before then. In later life 'Fred' took the Butler surname.
Have you got actual copies of the workhouse and orphanage records? I can't get into the London Metropolitan Archives online catalogue today to check out their holdings.
Dawn
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Thank you Dawnsh - yes I have also considered the same possibilities you have suggested but haven't been able to prove or disprove.
I went personally to the London Metropolitan Archives and viewed some documentation of the Workhouse records for both Walter L Butler and his son Frederick Butler. I felt there was more information to be found so I paid for them to do a search for me. This they did, and they sent me various documents.
Walter Lovick Butler died in the Workhouse there in 1914.
I also sent for Jane Butlers death certificate and she too died in the Workhouse Infirmary, Lambeth. This was in 1904. So it seems likely that after Jane's death Walter and Frederick fell upon hard times hence the admission into the Workhouse in 1906.
I would like to add, that my Grandfather, Frederick remained in the Workhouse until he left at the age of 14 to join the Gordon Highlanders. He was a wonderful person and his early bad start in life never held him back in any way.
Thank you for your interest.
Rosie
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Have you looked for a baptism?
If you haven't, I'm still doing look-ups at the London Metropolitan Archives (see my posts at the top of the London & Middx boards) and can add you to my look-up list.
Dawn
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Hi Dawnsh and thank you very much for your offer to do a baptism look up.
The date of birth on Frederick Butler's admission to the Workhouse was 20th August 1898.
Your help is much appreciated.
Rosie
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Some one suggested I sent off for the birth cert. of a Frederick Talbot born in Islington in 1900 1B 318 which may have thrown some light on this mysterious 'Nurse Child' Fred Talbot.
I have received the copy back today but it unfortunately doesn't help at all as the birth date is 25th June 1900 and the parents names are James Barnard John Talbot and Ada Elizabeth Talbot formerly Hitchins, so I still cannot tie this Fred Talbot in with my Grandad Frederick Butler.
Just thought I would let any one know who may be interested in this post. Thank you.
Rosie
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have you looked under Male Butler / Talbot births
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Hi Toni - how and where do I look for Male Butler/Talbot births?
Sorry for my ignorance but am a newby
Rosie
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hi Rosie
when searching the BMD just put in Male (or female) in instead of a forename, then surname as usual
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Thank you Toni I will try that tomorrow.
Rosie
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Kentish Town registers in Pancras registration district but clearly there are no likely registration in that district.
It might be worth checking through Lambeth and Pancras poor law records to see if you can find the child entering the poor law system (workhouse, children's home) and exiting to the Butler family. A nurse child doesn't necessarily mean they went through the poor law system, it could be a private arrangement, but that is somewhere to start. If the child went through the poor law system then the Butler family would be doing the equivalent of modern day fostering with a local authority. Sometimes nurse children became part of the 'foster' family and were 'adopted' (though at this time adoption was informal as there was no such legal process until 1927) and their surnames were changed as they were absorbed into their new family.
Regards
Valda
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Hi Valda - I have found records of Frederick Butler entering the Lambeth Workhouse in 1906 with his 'father' Walter Butler. But because I cannot tie these two together before that time I am still inclined to think that the Nurse Child Fred Talbot may have been the same person as Frederick Butler, with the surname having been changed, as you mentioned.
I have trawled through the BMD as suggested by Toni and have found a Cecil Talbot Butler born in 1898 in Leicestershire. Although the Christian name differs the two other names match and also Walter Butler (the 'father') is in the 1901 census in Leicestershire as a boarder so I just wonder?? Could this be an illegitimate child of Walter Butler maybe??
Rosie
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Hi Rosie
Cecil T Butler aged 3 and born Leicester is on the 1901 census in Leicester RG13 3007 folio 163, son of Frederick William Butler and Emily nee Cole (married Pembroke 1886).
It really is always better to go from the known information. Otherwise we have a tendency to grasp at coincidences which have a habit of causing us to shoe horn the information into 'the fit we want'
Cecil Talbot Butler born Leicester 1898 for Frederick Talbot born 1899 Kentish Town.
It also requires the more complex hypothesis of illegitimacy in Leicestershire, the taking of the child away from his natural mother (while Walter lurks suspiciously back in Leicestershire) and the acceptance by Walter's wife of her husband's son with another woman.
It is a more complex explanation than a simple fostering of a child through the London poor law system or a private arrangement, which allows the family to become attached and ultimately informally to 'adopt'.
Simple explanations should be persued first and eliminated before turning to the more complex.
I know that isn't necesarily the easy answer, because obviously the Butlers as genetic parents would be a lot simpler to research, but Fred Talbot could still be a child from the Butler's extended family. Regardless of whether he is or isn't, you will have to research him to either try to prove he is Frederick Butler, or to eliminate him. He is at present the only known candidate you have.
The internet is wonderful but it does work against us as well, by having some records instantly available but many others only available through hard work in record offices. Consequently we keep coming back to what we can easily access because we very much want the answer to the puzzle and we want it now.
I'm afraid my last advice which was to work from the known information from the 1901 census hasn't changed.
It might be worth checking through Lambeth and Pancras poor law records to see if you can find the child entering the poor law system (workhouse, children's home) and exiting to the Butler family.
It isn't easy and it might ultimately be fruitless but unless any further information is known or becomes available, perhaps through descendents of the other Butler children, it is a logical set of records that could be searched.
Regards
Valda
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Yes you are right Valda - I was clutching at straws really, so thank you for finding Cecil Talbot Butler on the 1901 census, which eliminates him.
I do believe that Fred Talbot, Nurse Child, turned out to be the same person as Frederick Butler, but as I cant find a birth for either I dont know where to go next.
You say about looking at the Workhouse records etc. but I have done this and have traced Frederick Butler entering there and leaving to join the Army years later. It is the years from Frederick Butler/Fred Talbot birth (supposedly in 1898) til entering the Workhouse in 1906 that I am struggling with.
What are Poor Law Records and where do I find them and do you mean I try and find Fred Talbot through this way?
Thank you for your advise in this.
Rosie
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If Fred Talbot was a nurse child (what might be in this case a modern day equivalent of being fostered) placed with the Butler family though the then equivalent of local authorities (poor law authorities) then there should be some records of his arriving into poor law care. The two most likely unions which might have records for him are either Pancras (Kentish Town - where Fred was born) or Lambeth (where the Butler family was living). The poor law union would then pay 'foster parents' - modern term, to look after the child making regularly payments for the child's upkeep.
It is known Fred was a nurse child at the time of the 1901 census. So between his birth and the 1901 census is the period when the records might be worth investigating further. Workhouse records are poor law records and so are workhouse infirmary records, and children's homes run by the poor law unions.
At the LMA will be the Pancras and Lambeth poor law union records. Even searching what records are held for the two unions 1898-1901 may find nothing (and it helps if you know your way around such records) as if he did enter the poor law system it may not be through either of these two unions. There are quite a few London poor law unions (as there are today London local authorities, who replaced them).
Fred may not have gone through the poor law system. He may have arrived with the Butlers through a strictly private arrangement, in which case there will be no records. The private arrangement could be purely financial but then it would be more surprising that he became an 'adopted' member of the family, or he could be a child of a relative of the Butlers (have you investigated this possibility)?
His lack of birth registration could be because his birth was not registerd or it was registered but in a different surname. That would indicate he was probably born illegitimately, but without the necessary evidence that isn't proven. If that was the case searching for him in poor law records might be difficult if you can't even be sure what name 'he was using'.
Nurse child originally meant a child that was given to a local woman who breast fed it for the mother and looked after the child through the first couple of years of its life. The child was therefore not necessarily from a poor family, as up until the first half of the C19th this was common practice amongst wealthy families.
I hope this help clarifies the possibilities there might be in researching poor law records further, but I would suggest reading the LMA guide on the subject
LMA Information Leaflet 26 Poor Law Records in London and Middlesex.
http://213.86.34.248/NR/rdonlyres/513E3F59-2AC2-4D4F-BF6E-B77A5779BEDB/0/infono26.pdf
Regards
Valda
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Rosie May
i was suggesting perhaps a Male Butler or a Male Talbot child born in the correct area at the correct time might be the missing Frederick - after the child was named the cert would have been updated in the margin of the birth certifcate but the index was not changed.
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Hi Valda and thank you for the information.
I agree that it seems logical now that my next step be researching further the Poor Law Records for Fred Talbot. This I shall have to pay a LMA researcher to do as when I went there before re Frederick Butler all the machines were being used and I only managed to have one hour before closing so I ended up paying a Researcher in the end anyway!
It is only recently that I have believed there may be a connection between Frederick Talbot and Frederick Butler, which is why I haven't persued this much before.
And to Toni - Yes I appreciate yours was just a suggestion but one I felt worth following up at the time.
Thank you again to you both for your help and advice and to all you people who have been interested in this posting.
I will keep you updated with any developments.
Rosie
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Today I received a reply from the London Metropolitan Archives stating there was nothing to indicate a name change in their previous findings for Frederick Butler. Also that they do not hold records of surname changes of children in the care of a Board of Guardians.
If I wanted them to search for Fred Talbot in the same records in which they sought Frederick Butler they would be willing to do so but if they found reference to Fred Talbot that surely this would indicate he was indeed a different person.
They felt such a search would not be worthwhile given the query over whether a name change definitely occurred.
They said if they were to search the records of St Pancras for Fred Talbot born in Kentish Town without having any information to suggest he was in their care, this is probably unlikely to be successful.
Also Dawn on this site has made a list of seven possible churches where a baptism may have taken place. She has started looking from August 1898 to 1906 but had no luck so far.
Thats how things stand at the moment. Will let you all know of any developments.
Rosie
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The LMA are giving you sensible advice because their charges are expensive and this would be a time consuming search. They have weighed up the possibility of success considering the expense and since they don't want to cause you expensive false hopes they are advising against it.
The only way I would contemplate attempting something like this is to do it myself or employ a less expensive researcher who had undertaken research in poor law records before, but the LMA is correct the chances of success are not high.
I think they are saying below that they think it would be difficult to prove it was the same person and without sufficient evidence to the contrary is could just as likely be a different person (really depends whether the Talbot name in any of the records was linked to the Butler surname - only likely in the Lambeth poor law records). There are no records in the poor law of name changes until it became a legal process with adoption in 1927. Anything before that was an informal process between families.
If I wanted them to search for Fred Talbot in the same records in which they sought Frederick Butler they would be willing to do so but if they found reference to Fred Talbot that surely this would indicate he was indeed a different person.
If the family did unofficially adopt Fred Talbot and he didn't come to them through the poor law system (he could have come to them for fostering via any private orphanage) then for many families such children came from members of their extended family. Have you been able to eliminate the Butler parents' siblings as potential parents?
If he did come into their family they may have chosen to have him baptised in their local church. Such a baptism won't give his parentage, unless it states the Butlers, but would help establish the child in the Butler family and may confirm a date of birth.
Regards
Valda
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Thank you Valda,
I appreciate the advice from LMA as it proves they are not just 'rip off merchants'. I have used them in the past re my search for Frederick Butler and they were very good and worth every penny they charged.
In reply to your question asking if I have been able to eliminate the two other Butler Sons as potential parents:
Well, I found Sons Walter O on the 1901 census ( aged 24) being in Wandsworth Prison (wonder what for?) and as for Lionel G, (who would have been 23 in 1901) I haven't been able to trace after finding both parents and the two Sons together in 1891 living at 35 Hutton Street, St. Brides, London.
So, No I cannot rule out either of the two Sons as being the father but, again, dont know how to go about finding out?
Any suggestions from any of you kind people please?
Thank you
Rosie
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Since his surname was Talbot I might have expected the connection to be through a female line and less likely a male sibling of Walter's (in which case he would have to have been an illegitimate son who would be much more likely to end up the responsibility of his mother's family). If Walter did not have any female siblings what of Jane's family?
Regards
Valda
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Walter Lovick Butler did have a sister, Alice Louisa Butler.
IGI extracted baptism for her:
ALICE LOUISA BUTLER
Birth: 06 DEC 1866
Christening: 05 JUN 1867 St Sepulchre, London, London, England
Father: FRANCIS RICHARD BUTLER
Mother: SARAH
She's with her parents, aged 3, in 1871 (Alice Butler): RG10/605/47/34
Still with parents, aged 14, in 1881 (Alice L. Butler): RG11/330/32/57
Not with parents after that. Dad, Francis R. Butler is in the City with his second wife Mary Ann in 1891:RG12/239/5/11. He died Dec qtr 1893 aged 66.
So what happened to Alice Louisa?
She is not the Somerset-born Alice Louisa Butler who married Robert Derisley, Dec 1890 Kensington.
She is not the Kent-born Alice Louise Butler who married Robert John Castle, Mar 1890 Thanet
I think she needs to be eliminated one way or another - otherwise I might start developing entirely speculative and wishful theories that she was the Alice Butler who married Horatio Talbot Jun 1919 Camberwell, and that this sealed a long-standing relationship in which she'd given birth to Horatio's illegitimate son Fred in 1898 and had to leave him with her brother and his wife ;)
Edited: OK I think we can forget the speculative theories - Alice appears to have married Henry Ridsdale Jun 1886 Bethnal Green - family in Southwark in 1891: RG12/340/72/68. Looks like Fred's mother will have to be found elsewhere... :-[
Anna
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So how about the Ballantine siblings? They look older so possibly a child of a niece or nephew?
1871 census RG10 7?8 folio 92
156 Cator Street Camberwell
James Ballantine 69 Head Married M Rev Officer Excise Returns London Middlesex
Elizabeth Ballantine 58 Wife Married Newington Surrey
Jane Ballantine 21 Daughter Dressmaker Camberwell Surrey
Annie E Ballantine 17 Daughter Dressmaker Camberwell Surrey
Daniel J Ballantine 12 Son Camberwell Surrey
Regards
Valda
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Anna and Valda I do appreciate very much the time and trouble you have spent on finding this information and for your suggestions etc. Thank you both.
I am not sure how or what my next step should be now??
Regards
Rosie
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To any one who may be following my post on the search for my Grandads beginnings, I was overwhelmed to receive this photo of him aged 14 on joining the Gordon Highlanders from the Lambeth Workhouse.
I cried buckets when I saw this, he looks such a proud little boy and so he should be from his humble Workhouse beginnings.
He spent 25 loyal years in the Army.
I thought some one may appreciate this picture and the pride I feel to be related to this man.
Happy New Year to you.
Rosie
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OOOOO what a lovely surprise and a lovely picture as well.
Well done, I know how much this means to you..
Luv Lynda ;D
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Thank you my little Cuz - yes it does mean so much to me - but I still have the same 'brick wall' to get through, which is discovering where he actually came from before the age of 8 on entering the Lambeth Workhouse.
Big Cuz xxxxx
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Hi Rosie
Sorry to have taken so long to reply but my trips to the LMA were cut short late last year.
Anyway, yesterday I looked at Kentish Town baptism registers 1898-1906
St Barnabas: he's not there
St John the Baptist, Kenish Town: he's not there
St Martin: he's not there
There were only a couple of Butler baptisms at St Barnabas but the parents were Edward & Edith. There were no Talbot baptisms at all 3 churches.
Dawn
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Hallo Dawn and thank you for remembering my look up.
What a shame there were no results. As you can imagine, my hopes were raised on receiving a message from you!
Thank you Dawn for the time and trouble you have gone to in trying to help me.
I guess this will have to remain my brick wall because I just dont know what else to do now. ???
I hope your situation has improved re your husbands work.
Again, many thanks.
Regards
Rosie :'(
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Hello Rosie,
What a beautiful photo.
And what a difficult puzzle - or puzzles as there are two.
Were Fred TALBOT and Frederick John BUTLER one and the same person?
Who was Fred TALBOT?
It appears that, unless you are prepared to spend a great deal of money, you really need to search the Poor Law records yourself.
Of course we must be very careful about making assumptions but it does seem very likely that Fred TALBOT and Frederick John BUTLER are one and the same.
If they are not, then two birth records are missing. If they are the same, then it is only one birth record which is missing - and good suggestions have been made re possible reasons.
Excellent advice has been given but mainly concentrating on using the Poor Law records to try to find Fred TALBOT before 1901.
I know nothing about Poor Law records so these thoughts might be way off the mark - if so, I apologise in advance.
I am wondering whether it might be worth searching the Poor Law records up until 1906. It seems likely that Walter would have tried to keep himself and Fred out of the Workhouse - and therefore he might have been an applicant for relief at any stage between 1901 and 1906, but perhaps particularly after Jane's death in 1904 when (it seems) he would have been left with the care of a 6 year old. And this would have been particularly difficult given Walter's occupation (noting that, in 1901, Walter was a comedian in what seems to have been a travelling group of performers - all six listed as Visitors in a household in Leicester, and five of them born in London).
If any documentation can be found (and I note from the leaflet recommended by Valda that there are few surviving records of out relief), there just might be some clues to show whether Fred TALBOT and Frederick John BUTLER are one and the same.
If the 'nurse child' status of Fred TALBOT in 1901 was a formal one, I wonder if there might be ongoing records (i.e. after 1901) relating to Jane's continuing status as a 'foster' parent - and then transferring to Walter after her death. Or were such children normally taken back into care i.e. into the Workhouse, once they had reached a certain age? Unless the 'fostering' family, having grown to regard the child as their own by then, was willing to take over the financial responsibility?
I am also wondering (perhaps Valda can advise) whether Walter might have needed to present Fred as his son (and thus give Fred's surname as BUTLER) so that they could be admitted together to the Workhouse?
Or it might just be chance i.e. by then Walter possibly regarded Fred TALBOT as his son and said 'this is my son Fred' and the admitting officer automatically entered BUTLER for Fred's surname.
Just some thoughts ...
JAP
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Hi JAP - Apologies for delay in replying.
Thank you for your input and for setting things out plainly as they stand. It made very interesting reading.
I had been waiting for word from Dawn re baptism records before I tried the Poor Law records, but as you can now see, Dawn has had no luck.
I have therefore now sent an e mail to London Metropolitan Archives making inquiries about the Poor Law Records to 1906, as suggested by you. I have always found the LMA more than helpful when ever I have contacted them before.
As soon as I have received a reply I will add a message to this post.
Thank you again for your interest and advice.
Rosie ;)
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Today I have heard back from the LMA.
As I have two names to look up pre-1906 (Frederick Butler and Fred Talbot) one from the Lambeth borough and the other presumably from Kentish Town, St Pancras I have decided it would be too expensive for me to pay for a Researcher.
Therefore as I am also unable to visit the LMA personally it seems that the only thing left for me now is to wait until the records from LMA come onto Ancestry and maybe I might strike lucky then.
So until then I shall have to try and be patient and keep my fingers crossed...........
Regards
Rosie
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Last friday I noticed on another site a lady who had on her family tree the names of my Walter L Butler, Walter O Butler, Lionel Butler and Jane Ballantine :o
I therefore subscribed to this site and sent her a p.m. and am eagerly awaiting a reply.
Unfortunately she did not have my Grandad Frederick Butler on there but, who knows, she may have some knowledge of him.
I hope she has the courtesy to reply to me and I will let you know when she does. In the meantime, I am so excited I cannot sleep as this is the first time I have come across anyone who appears also to be researching this family :D
Regards
Rosie
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Rosie
Have you found young Frederick in 1911 yet?
I can see that Walter Lovick(mistranscribed as Sovick) Butler is in Lambeth Workhouse,but Fred is not with him.
Just wondered if the 1911 would give you any more clues as to who he really was ;)
Carol
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Hi Carol - yes I have found Frederick on the 1911 census in Lambeth Workhouse as Inmate. Unfortunately there was no more information there other than I already knew.
I have also found the children of Walter O Butler in the Workhouse at this time and also their mother Charlotte.
Rosie
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:'( its now 5 weeks since I sent a message to the lady on Genes Reunited who had Walter Butler, Jane Butler and sons on her family tree, which appeared to match mine with the names and dates etc.
Unfortunately she hasn't answered my message. Obviously I am very disappointed but will continue checking several times a day in the hope she still may some day come across my message and reply, which will put me out of my misery one way or the other! :'(
In the meantime I will carry on crossing my fingers and everything else and pray for a miracle. ::)
Rosie
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Hi Rosie,
Have you checked your dent messages. If there is still a purple envelope beside the name, the person has not opened your mail. If it is not purple, she has opened her mail and got your message.
Luv
Lyndaxx
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Hi Lynda :D
Yes I checked to see if the mauve envelope sign was there and it was which, as you say, shows she hasn't read the message.
Luv Rosie ;)
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It may be that she's no longer a member of Genes Reunited then......shame.
Carol
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Yes Carol it seems that way and I am well disappointed.
Rosie
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:)Well after what seems like an eternity I finally received a reply from the GR member!
Her Great Grandmother Alice and my Fred's 'father' Walter Lovick Butler were brother and sister!!
Unfortunately though she doesn't have any information on Walters Sons other than their year and place of birth and this does not include Fred.
But she said she would have a look and see what she can find out as there may be something I could have over looked, as 'this quite often happens when you get overwhelmed with information' -(which I totally agree).
She kindly opened up her tree for me in the hope that I may spot something of interest that she overlooked.
I have looked at her tree but haven't seen anything which may be promising.
However I will keep you people informed of any further developments and thank you for your interest. Hopefully, one day we will get to the bottom of this mystery.
Thank you
Rosie ;)
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I have been without a computer for several months but I now have a new one and have been continuing my search for my Grandad Fred Butler/Fred Talbot.
I have found the Baptism Record of Fred Talbot and have discovered his name was FREDERICK JOHN Talbot, the same as my Grandfathers Christian names. Before this I had only known his name to be Fred Talbot.
Frederick John Talbot was baptized on 23rd April 1902 at St Mary at Lambeth and his mother was Florence Talbot, a single woman.
It gives the address of 77 Vauxhall Walk, which is the same address as that on the 1901 Census for the Nurse Child Fred Talbot with Jane Butler.
I am truly delighted to discover this and it adds to my belief that Fred Talbot and Frederick Butler are one and the same.
I cannot find any further record of Florence Talbot on any of the Census and would appreciate any suggestions from you kind people as to where else I should look for her with just her name.
If only I could find a birth certificate for Frederick John Talbot to prove his date of birth as the same as that known for Frederick John Butler . It is so frustrating!!
But at last I feel I have gone forward a step and feel so excited!!!
Rosie : :)
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Hi Rosie
That's great news,sounds like the net is closing in on the elusive Fred ;D
Right back at the beginning of this thread Beany suggested the 1898 Camberwell birth of a Frederick John Butler,but you said you had discounted that one.
With the new info you have it is likely that this is now correct?
I've seen the baptism entry.It is fairly unusual for a single mum to baptise a child,you don't see many of them in the early 1900's.What a shame the vicar didn't put his exact DOB in the margin,lots do ::)
Carol
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Brilliant news Rosie, i wonder if there is a death of a Florence Talbot circa 1901 in the relevant reg district as Vauxhall Street ?
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Hi Carol - The Frederick John Butler born in 1898 in Camberwell unfortunately died the same year, which is why I discounted him.
Hiya Toni - I am looking at all possible records to try and find 'my' Florence Talbot but not had any luck so far.
Will let you all know if I find anything.
Thank you all
Rosie
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Hello,
There is a John Frederick Talbot in Free BMD Births September Q 1898 Thetford Norfolk 4b 355. A long shot but worth a try. I searched for my g grandmother's bc for years until I realised she was registered with christian names reversed and surname incorrectly spelt. Good luck, Margaret.
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What birthplace was given for Fred in the 1911 census? Was it consistent with the "Kentish Town" from the 1901 census?
Anna
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What birthplace was given for Fred in the 1911 census? Was it consistent with the "Kentish Town" from the 1901 census?
Anna
11 year old Frederick Butler(schoolboy) is listed as an inmate in Lambeth Workhouse but born in Lambeth ???
Carol
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Thanks Margaret, Anna and Carol for your contributions.
Since my last posting I have spent all my spare time searching all sorts of records for anything concrete on Florence Talbot that may tie her in with my Frederick Talbot/Frederick Butler.
So far I have found nothing. Obviously I have found some Florence Talbot's in the census, mainly the 1881 and 1891 where her date of birth ties in (abt. 1876) and place of birth given as Lambeth, but this is just coincidental and I have no way of knowing if this is the Florence Talbot who gave birth as a single woman to Frederick Talbot. I could find no further trace on any other census. So I do not know where she was when 'Nurse Child Fred Talbot' was living at 77 Vauxhall Walk with Jane Butler on the 1901 census.
I can find no death for her either which would explain Fred Talbot/Fred Butler's reason for entering the Lambeth Workhouse in 1906.
In fact I am no further forward again now than I was months ago and it looks as though this is for ever going to be a 'brick wall' for me.
I will continue looking though, and I thank you all for your continued interest.
Rosie :(
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Since my last posting in December I have spent all my time searching the poor Law Records for any snippets of information on either Frederick John Talbot/Frederick John Butler.
I concentrated on Islington, St. Pancras and Lambeth. It has been extremely time consuming and very very laborious and came up with nothing at all on Frederick John Talbot and the records I found for Frederick John Butler were only the ones I had previously found.
As you know, I was very excited and (foolishly) optimistic when I found the baptism record of Frederick Talbot which tied in with the address of the 'Nurse Child' and was convinced that I was about to break down my brick wall regarding my Grandfather.
Unfortunately this has not been the case and I still cant prove they are the same person.
I still haven't been able to find any concrete evidence about the mother Florence Talbot as I have no actual info to go on except her name.
So I guess this is where its got to end for the time being.
I wont give up though. I will still keep looking and who knows ... maybe some day.......
I just thought, for those of you kind and interested enough to follow this thread, (and I am amazed at the number :o) that it only fair to keep you up-dated.
Thank you again for your interest, help and support. It is very much appreciated.
Regards
Rosie
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Thanks for the update Rosie.
Another one to put on the back burner for now( I have loads on there ;D)
Carol
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Thank you Carol.
I forgot to mention that I had also sent off for birth certificate for Frederick John Talbot for the year 1898 and three years either side with the mother named as Florence Talbot but received a reply from GRO saying they had been unable to find anything matching.
I find it puzzling that the mother did not appear to register his birth yet she had him baptised.
As you say I will just have to put it to one side for the moment. :(
Rosie
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Thank you Carol.
I forgot to mention that I had also sent off for birth certificate for Frederick John Talbot for the year 1898 and three years either side with the mother named as Florence Talbot but received a reply from GRO saying they had been unable to find anything matching.
I find it puzzling that the mother did not appear to register his birth yet she had him baptised.
As you say I will just have to put it to one side for the moment. :(
Rosie
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Its now been over a year since I had my last posting.
Since then I have been 'digging away' at trying to find anything relating to this.
I still believe he was the illegitimate son of single woman Florence Talbot and therefore he was born Frederick John TALBOT and not Frederick John BUTLER as he always believed.
My family grew up with this lovely Grandfather and he was a fantastic person.
None of us had any idea that he grew up in a Workhouse (have only found this out after he died and I got a computer and got interested in genealogy).
Us Grandchildren always assumed he was Scottish because he had joined the Gordon Highlanders when he was 14 years old and our Grandparents and parents were Scottish - so it was surprising to us all that he was actually brought up in London.
So I am asking any one following this post to please please give me any suggestions as to how to go forward with this and trace for certain this elusive Florence Talbot.
He was such a special person that I just cant rest until I know his true background.
From what I have learned, the Workhouse was so hard in those days and he had such a tough life but turned out so great
Thank you very much .
Rosie ;)
..
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Ive read through this thread tonight and some things stand out as "strange".
copied and pasted from the thread. Frederick John dob from Workhouse Records 20th August 1898
possible reason for not registering the birth is that child could only be registered by a parent and parent is no longer there or even alive?
'Nurse Child Fred Talbot' was living at 77 Vauxhall Walk with Jane Butler on the 1901 census
but not with Florence Talbot?
Frederick John Talbot was baptized on 23rd April 1902 at St Mary at Lambeth and his mother was Florence Talbot, a single woman. It gives the address of 77 Vauxhall Walk, which is the same address as that on the 1901 Census for the Nurse Child Fred Talbot with Jane Butler.
How could "Florence Talbot" suddenly appear almost 2 years later to have her child baptised? Would she do so? And why the same address?
Or is Jane Butler pretending to be Florence Talbot?
Was the address at 77 Vauxhall Walk a baby farm?
It doesn't make sense, does it?
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Hi there and thanks for replying.
I agree this whole thing is puzzling but
Why would Jane Butler pretend to be Florence Talbot?
Jane Butler had grown up Sons in this period and she would be around 48 years old when Frederick was born so I think it very unlikely she would be his mother?
I understand that if some one is a Nurse Child in those days it usually means they are being 'fostered' by some one or they are being looked after by some one within the family.
I have tried to trace some kind of connection between Fred Butler/Talbot and Jane Butler (Nurse 'Mother') and Florence Talbot (who had him baptised) and have been unable to to tie these all in.
I cant trace Florence Talbot because I know nothing what so ever about her. There are lots of Florence Talbots around in that era that would be of an age to have had Fred but I cant prove/disprove it to be the Florence Talbot that gave birth to Frederick.
This is what I would like some help with because I am at a loss to know where to take this further?
Jane Butler died in 1904 which possibly explains why her husband Walter Butler (who was a travelling Entertainer/Comedian)was unable to then care for the child Fred and placed him in the Lambeth Workhouse in 1906.
I just need to find a positive link between the Butler family and Florence Talbot so that I can find closure to this.
I agree it all sounds strange but there must be an explanation to it all some where and this is what I am hoping to find out. ???
Thank you for your interest.
Rosie
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There is one other thing to check out. WO's time in prison ..... could he have fathered Frederick before he went to prison?
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hi again fifer -
I did consider Walter Ormande as being the father but, (unless he was a very busy man,) I doubt it as he also had a daughter born in 1898 (same year as Fred) to a Charlotte Dyett
Coincidentally, this daughter entered the Workhouse roughly the same time as Fred Butler and spent many years in there, as did Fred Butler.
This family intrigues me and I am desperate to get to the bottom of it all!!
Rosie :)
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This is worth reading (about Baby Farmers)
http://www.loyno.edu/~history/journal/1989-0/haller.htm
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What was Walter Ormond in the nick for? Has anyone checked him out?
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I did consider Walter Ormande as being the father but, (unless he was a very busy man,) I doubt it as he also had a daughter born in 1898 (same year as Fred) to a Charlotte Dyett
Coincidentally, this daughter entered the Workhouse roughly the same time as Fred Butler and spent many years in there, as did Fred Butler.
Was this child Emily Dyett?
I would like to agree with you ......... however we often see cases in the papers where a man has a child by his wife and another by his mistress/girlfriend within weeks! :P
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Thank you I have just read what you suggested - not pleasant reading.
I find it hard to believe Fred Butler/Talbot was just farmed out to any one for money alone. If that had been the case then once Jane Butler had died why would her husband Walter Butler continue to try and take care of Fred until he was forced to both enter the Workhouse?
As for the son Walter Ormonde Butler, I haven't been able to find out what he served time for in prison. All I do know about him is he had three children with Charlotte Dyett before eventually marrying her. All children, plus Walter Ormonde spent time in the same Workhouse as Fred Butler/Talbot.
This whole thing/family intrigues me and I so wish I could get some closure for my Grandad
Rosie ;)
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Yes the daughter born to Walter O in 1898 was Emily Dyett
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It looks like Walter Ormonde was a Gordon Highlander, joined up 1914, as well which could explain the connection for Fred Butler/Talbot and it doesn't look like WO behaved himself in the Army either - tried for losing his rations, deducted 10 days pay for disobedience of an order, inattention in the ranks, absences of pass, drunkenness...!
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It looks like Walter Ormonde was a Gordon Highlander, joined up 1914, as well which could explain the connection for Fred Butler/Talbot.
Ah Ha now lets have a look at that picture again. ;) Could that be father and son?
Another point if Walter Ormonde didn't join up until 1914 was Fred already serving? According to this thread, Fred joined up age 14, he was born 1898, so did he join up in 1912? When did WO get out of prison?
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It looks like Walter Ormonde was a Gordon Highlander, joined up 1914, as well which could explain the connection for Fred Butler/Talbot.
Ah Ha now lets have a look at that picture again. ;) Could that be father and son?
Another point if Walter Ormonde didn't join up until 1914 was Fred already serving? According to this thread, Fred joined up age 14, he was born 1898, so did he join up in 1912? When did WO get out of prison?
the dates occurred to me when I was posting....
WO was in prison on the 1901 census at least but depends what he was in for (HMP Wandsworth)
Fred would have been 16 at the time of WW1 breaking out
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Fifer and Ruth - thank you both for your comments:-
Fred joined up in 1912.
Yes, I agree, WO looks like he wasn't of very good character so...
Fifer suggests maybe the photo is of Father WO (Walter Ormonde Butler) and Son (Fred). But the older person has the stripes of a Sargeant and surely WO, with his record, would not have been a Sargeant?
Also, another thing that has always puzzled me is that I have records of Walter Ormonde Butler having joined the South Wales Regiment in 1896. It obviously is the same person because he gives his next of kin as Walter Butler, Father, of 113 Cormwallis Road, Lambeth.
But I cant understand the writing on these records and cant see how long he was in this Regiment for, as there doesn't seem to be any other records relating to this?
If he joined this Regiment in 1896 would he then be able to join a different Regiment in 1914 (Gordon Highlanders)? I am not able to work out how long he was in the South Wales Regiment for?? as there doesn't appear to be much info on this.
I don't have much knowledge of Army rules and regs so am unable to make much sense of this?
I am hoping some one more knowledgeable can put me right please?
Another thing that always puzzled me is that on the 1881 census there is a Dyett family living at 116 Vauxhall Walk, Lambeth (Vauxhall Walk crops up quite a lot with the Dyett/Butler family). I don't know if this is the family of Charlotte Sophia Dyett (who bore WO three children before marriage) but, there is a Florence Dyett within this family who was born in 1868 and who died the year Fred Butler/Talbot was born in 1898.
There is also a brother in that family Fred.
I have often wondered if this Florence Dyett could be the mother of Fred? But, where does the surname Talbot come from in that case?
Although it doesn't state a Charlotte Sophia in that census, it does show a Sys. S Dyett, aged 7.
Wonder if this could refer to Charlotte Sophia Dyett, who married WO?
I appreciate this is all speculation but its puzzled me for ages and wonder if any one else thinks this Florence could be the one who gave birth to my Fred?
I would appreciate your thoughts on this please.
thanking you.
Rosie ;)
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What was the Dyett family's mum's maiden name? ???
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Although it doesn't state a Charlotte Sophia in that census, it does show a Sys. S Dyett, aged 7.
Wonder if this could refer to Charlotte Sophia Dyett, who married WO?
Mistranscription of Cissie? possible ??
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Walter Ormond Butler that joins the South Wales Borders in 1896 absconded in September 1896 and there is a note in his records that he "absented himself from proceeding to join this Regiment on 21st inst" (think that's 21st September)
He didn't officially join the South Wales Borderers so completely legitimately could have joined the Gordon Highlanders later, I suppose.
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Another thing that always puzzled me is that on the 1881 census there is a Dyett family living at 116 Vauxhall Walk, Lambeth (Vauxhall Walk crops up quite a lot with the Dyett/Butler family). I don't know if this is the family of Charlotte Sophia Dyett (who bore WO three children before marriage) but, there is a Florence Dyett within this family who was born in 1868 and who died the year Fred Butler/Talbot was born in 1898.
On Charlotte Dyett's marriage certificate to WO she gives her father as Edward Dyett, a Carman. Interestingly the occupation of Carman is one that WO gives on his 1896 papers for the South Wales Borderers, although on marriage to Charlotte, WO says he is a Decorator.
So the Charlotte with a sister Florence did have a sister Florence. Parents were Edward and Louisa
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What was the Dyett family's mum's maiden name? ???
Not Talbot unfortunately - she was Louisa Knowlden
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Thank you both very much for your information.
So it looks like the Talbot name still doesn't tie in anywhere then.
I think maybe I will send off for Florence Dyetts death certificate in 1898 and see if that throws up anything. If she happened to die in child birth it wont exactly prove anything but I will wait and see what it says.
Rosie ???
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....that death of a 30 year old Florence Dyett in June Quarter of 1898 registered in Lambeth, but that must have meant she died in April May or June, but Fred was born in the August so its the wrong quarter unless his birthdate is a month or so off...
but the fact she was 30 fits with the census saying she was born in 1868..... ???
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Oh silly me.....
Have just realised that Florence Talbot was around in 1902 to have Fred baptised so obviously it cant have been the same person as Florence Dyett, who died in 1898, so I may as well save my money and not bother sending for the death certificate.
Have been trying to find my notes to confirm exactly when Florence did have him baptised but as my filing system is rubbish I cant find it. But I think it was in 1902 but I may be wrong.
Rosie
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Oh silly me.....
Have just realised that Florence Talbot was around in 1912 to have Fred baptised so obviously it cant have been the same person as Florence Dyett, who died in 1898, so I may as well save my money and not bother sending for the death certificate.
Have been trying to find my notes to confirm exactly when Florence did have him baptised but as my filing system is rubbish I cant find it. But I think it was in 1912 but I may be wrong.
Rosie
Fred's baptism was 1902....If his mother had passed it could well have been on the baptism record unless it was Jane pretending to be Florence, but on the face of it it does look like his mother was alive in 1902.
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Sorry Ruth - yes it was 1902 when he was baptised.
I wonder why his birth was never registered yet they bothered to get him baptised? Another mystery which doesn't make sense really.
Rosie
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Oh silly me.....
Have just realised that Florence Talbot was around in 1902 to have Fred baptised so obviously it cant have been the same person as Florence Dyett, who died in 1898, so I may as well save my money and not bother sending for the death certificate.
Ah but was she/did she, or did someone represent her?
I have an illegitimate ancestor from this workhouse also baptised at the same church. My guess is that the workhouse insisted on it in the case of illegitimacy.
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I doubt if they could register the birth of a child to whom neither were the parents, they would have had to give a relationship to the child.
I wouldn't be surprised if it was WO's son by Florence and her folks were not willing to take on another mouth to feed.
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it could well be the case - as WO was not exactly clean living - that if he was fathering children with Charlotte out of wedlock, he could well have been doing the same with Charlotte's sister at the same time.
It may still be worthwhile getting Florence's death certificate if only to discount her.
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Thank you both for your suggestions.
If it turns out to be that WO was the Father it would explain why WO's mother and father had such an attachment to Fred, but I guess we will never know for certain.
WO certainly sounds an unsavoury character - all I can say is that my Grandad Fred was the complete opposite, thankfully!
I will post again when I have received the death certificate for Florence Dyett. I have to look it up now.
Thank you both, once again.
Rosie :D
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Just another peice of trivia but the Black Dog pub (now called the Lavender Bistro) at 112 Vauxhall Walk was rebuilt in 1895. Not sure which way the numbers ran but the building and the one next to it look "of the period" though most buildings are long gone.
As for WO who knows maybe he wasn't as bad as we presume. Certainly if Fred was his child his parents took responsibility for him.
There could easily be a false dob for Fred because his birth wasn't registered, so I wouldn't put to much emphasis on dob.
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Thank you Fifer
Rosie ;)
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ooooooh rosie, you are gettting there...am getting excited for you....
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another thing that struck me as a potential hypothesis for Jane having Fred with her in 1901
WO's other babies had their mother, Charlotte, but Fred (if he was WO and Florence Dyett's child) had a deceased mother and father in the nick so Jane might have been the only one to care for him especially if the Dyett parents were thoroughly annoyed at WO and their daughters...just a thought that occurred that could explain why Fred was with Jane
One thing that needs to be taken into account is that the census is only a reflection of who was resident in the house that night....nurse child lends more weight to Fred being there more than a night, but doesn't necessarily mean that Jane had him all the time.
I think I've found (as an aside) what happened to WO's brother Lionel as I think he was also military as well. scrap that, not him ;D
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WO's other babies had their mother, Charlotte, but Fred (if he was WO and Florence Dyett's child) had a deceased mother and father in the nick so Jane might have been the only one to care for him especially if the Dyett parents were thoroughly annoyed at WO and their daughters...just a thought that occurred that could explain why Fred was with Jane
Exactly my thoughts ;D
Grieving Dyett's just lost their daughter in childbirth with an illegitimate son, possibly blaming WO and more importantly Fred for the loss of Florence.
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Thanks Lynda, Fifer and Ruth
Yes I feel you could well be right in what you say.
I have sent off for Florence Dyett's death certificate and will post the information as soon as I have received it.
If it comes back she died in childbirth then I think maybe we have cracked it!! (although still no concrete proof).
Thank you all once again for your interest and your contributions.
Rosie :D
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If it comes back she died in childbirth then I think maybe we have cracked it!! (although still no concrete proof).
We only ever have what our ancestors have recorded and if they told fibs ........ ;)
I don't honestly think you ever have concrete proof especially with illegitimate births BUT if you can get as close as possible with data such as you already have (and if Florences DC bears our suspicions out) you will be able to say "on the balance of probabilities" WO Butler/F Dysett were Fred's parents.
I have my fingers firmly crossed! ;D
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Yes Fifer, you're right and I am crossing everything :D waiting for this death certificate!!!
You and Ruth have been so much help to me and I cant thank you both enough.
I never seriously considered Florence Dyett before as the mother of Fred but as we all seem to be thinking along the same lines then I am hoping our suspicions are right.
I agree that the Dyett family, if its true what we are thinking, were well sick of WO, and so they should be and most things do point to him and Florence Dyett being the possible parents. If that is true then what a thoroughly nasty bloke WO was?
The one thing that puzzles me though is why would some one (possible Jane Butler) go along and register him in the name of Talbot? Where does the Talbot name come from I wonder?
Anyway, I will await the Death Certificate and be in touch .....
Rosie ;)
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fingers crossed ;D
if it was more likely than not that Florence Dyett was his mum, which we can only say, as Fifer said is balance of probabilities, we may never get to the Talbot bit....unless whoever registered him was covering up or was mistaken with Florence (Dyett's) name.
it would be handy if baptism records were signed by the person baptising the child and not just the vicar... ;D ;)
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Hi to all
Well today I received the long awaited death cert of Florence Dyett
This is what it said:-
WHEN AND WHERE DIED
First June 1898
Workhouse Infirmary
Brook Street
NAME AND SURNAME
Florence Dyett
SEX
Female
AGE
30 years
OCCUPATION
Bottle Washer
of
135 Vauxhall Street
Lambeth
CAUSE OF DEATH
Heart disease
Nephritis
Dropsy
SIGNATURE & RESIDENCE OF INFORMANT
G Dean
Steward
Workhouse Infirmary
Brook Street
WHEN REGISTERED
Second June 1898
So.... None the wiser a??
What do you good people think would be the next step (if any)?
Any advice would be appreciated or shall I just give up with this?
Thanks to you all for your interest - I am gobsmacked :o at the following this has received. Thank you all so very much.
Rosie
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hmm...Florence was certainly worth a try but she can probably be discounted which is a shame as she seemed to be a more obvious candidate.
Needs thinking about... ;D
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Yes Ruth she did seem a possible/probable candidate but I agree she should be discounted now.
Oh well - back to the drawing board then a.
Thank you for your help in this - much appreciated. :)
Rosie
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mmmmmmmmm......still thinking.......xx
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Its been over a year now and I am still no further on with my search despite most days looking for both FLORENCE TALBOT, single woman, who gave birth to illegitimate child FREDERICK JOHN TALBOT, baptised at Lambeth St Mary the Less on 23rd April 1902, who gave her address as 77 Vauxhall Walk, Lambeth.
I have continually searched for more details of the above but have always drawn a blank.
I believe, as stated in my previous posts, that Frederick John Talbot , for some reason, was adopted by the Butler family.
I need to trace the mother, Florence Talbot. I cant get any further with this and its driving me mad.
I need the help of you more experienced Rootchatters please.
Any help, any ideas, any suggestions - anything please to further my search?
Thank you
Rosie