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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Topic started by: The Geneal Geologist on Friday 15 August 08 18:38 BST (UK)
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Here's a story -
A couple of orphans in my family tree are alleged to have resulted from the death of their parents directly and indirectly by lions. Joseph PHILLIPS (a musician) died of a heart attack in a circus ring while performing with lions. His wife Ellen PHILLIPS died in the ring when she put her head in a lion's mouth as part of an act. Incidents would have happened between 1858 (last child's birth)and the 1871 census.
Any circus experts who may have clues on whether we can kind find this to be true or not? I have searched online Times but obviously their deaths did not warrant a report. They were married in Worcestershire (the children left with Rels in Dodford near Bromsgrove). Of course, as part of circus act they could have been anywhere in England when the incidents happened.
Thanks.
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Can you narrow the time down a bit more by finding them in the 1861 census?
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Its an amazing story if its true.
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Reminds me of the story of the son of a notable Pembrokeshire landed family who was killed while in India. Arrangements were made to send his remains home. When the large crate arrived, it was found to contain a tiger in an advanced state of decomposition. A telegram was despatched to the shipping agents in India seeking an explanation. It was brief. "Tiger in box, Sahib in tiger."
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Finding their death certificates would obviously help - here's a possibility for Ellen (bearing in mind the Bromsgrove connection):
Ellen PHILLIPS Dec 1859 Bromsgrove 6c 255
I agree that finding the children in 1861, with or without parents, would help narrow down death dates.
Hope it's true - it's a great story :)
Anna
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I will post back any findings. Thanks all.
A relative, who is more on the direct line, will follow up the death possibility. Hopefully cause of death will be explicit, if true.
Appreciate the assistance and any other suggestions.
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I'm sure Rootschatters would be only too delighted to help find the family in 1861, given a bit more info (e.g. names of children; birthdates/places for family members; census ref for 1871).
Anna :)
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Sadly that Ellen PHILLIPS was not the one according to my source. If he provides more, I will pass on.
Thanks.
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I had a look at Gales British Newspapers betwen dates mentioned i.e. 1858 to 1871. Searched for both their names, including just their surnames with circus and/or lion.
Sorry, nothing found.
Les
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The younger of two Phillips children born Bromsgrove on the 1871 census with her maternal grandparents in Great Dodford (Bromsgove) Worcestershire, was with her same grandparents there in 1861. Both girls were with their maternal grandparents, the Sestons, in 1881 both born Dodford.
RG9 2114 folio 51
Great Dodford Bromsgrove, Worcestershire
Maria Philips 2 Granddaughter Bromsgrove, Worcestershire
The older child Ann(e) born circa 1858 in Bromsgove from the 1871 census, is with her Phillips grandparents in Birmingham on the same census.
1861 census RG9 2146 folio 92
29 Stafford Street Birmingham
Ann E Phillips 3 Granddaughter Dodford, Worcestershire
Their mother Ellen being a child of her mother's first marriage.
Marriages Sep 1855
Holladay Elen Bromsgrove 6c 451
Holladay Ellen Bromsgrove 6c 451
Phillips Joseph Bromsgrove 6c 451
Ellen was born circa 1838 in Sutton in Ash Nottinghamshire according to the 1851 census.
Joseph with his parents at 29 Stafford Road Birmingham on the 1851 census was born circa 1836 in Birmingham.
I don't think that helps much however in finding either Ellen or Joseph on the 1861 census, but it gives everyone enough information to also try and see if they can find them. I'm not sure the girls living with their grandparents in 1861 or 1871 should necessarily mean one or both of their parents had by then died.
Regards
Valda
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Thanks Valda - I have passed on the info to my distant cousin who is the one connected to PHILLIPs. No joy on the lions yet. Could be just one of those grandiose family stories used to explain away other family matters.
Regards,
Mark
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Thank everyone for the interest in this story which Mark Grace asked about - maybe we will find out the truth sometime.
One further piece of information which might help - a famous lion-tamer who certainly existed, John Cooper of Wolverhampton, was the brother of Charles Cooper, the husband of Joseph Phillips's sister Susannah. John Cooper died quite naturally without any activity by lions.
As Mark says, the Phillips lion story may just be a cover-up of some kind, or there may have been some confusion in minds between the two stories.
I just noticed in a web search that there was a question about John Cooper in a letter to the Birmingham Mercury a couple of years ago., though I don't know how to follow the questioner up:
http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G1-145738743.html
It seems unlikely that the should be two lion-tamers (not to mention Ellen) connected to the same family unless there was some reason - i.e. one had joined the curcus following the other - it would be a coincidence that both Susannah's brother and brother-in-law happened to be lion-tamers, especially as there is no other link to the circus in the family either before or since so far as we know.
Mark Todd
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What was Joseph's occupation on his marriage?
Marriages Sep 1855
Holladay Elen Bromsgrove 6c 451
Phillips Joseph Bromsgrove 6c 451
Susannah's connection into the Cooper family seems to have come later, if this is the right marriage, perhaps the connection was through her brother, but if, it was a bit late for Joseph to change occupations and already be missing from the 1861 census?
Marriages Sep 1868
Cooper Charles Aston 6d 301
Phillips Susannah Aston 6d 301
CHARLES COOPER
SUSANNAH PHILLIPS
Marriage: 05 AUG 1868 Aston Juxta Birmingham, Warwick
Have you found the two daughters birth registrations? Do you have the certificates? What was their father's occupation at the time of their births?
Regards
Valda
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Valda:
Thank you for your message.
At marriage Joseph is described as 'musician' which I guess could be consistent with working in a circus. Going by earlier census records, his age would have been about twenty, Ellen's eighteen, at that time.
I haven't checked the two daughters' birth records to see if they give the father's occupation - the refs. are these two I would think:
Ann Margaret Phillips 6c364 (? - not very clear) Bromsgrove 1857 April-June
Alice Maria Phillips 6c34 Bromsgrove 1859 July-September
You are right - we could check these, to make sure they are the right references, and to see the father's occupation.
We certainly haven't found Joseph or Ellen in the 1861 or later census, but that doesn't necessarily mean they had already died. A circus copuld be working anywhere, maybe even abroad.
Mark Todd
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Alice Maria's marriage will also give her father's occupation.
Marriages Mar 1884
Dolphin George Bray Bromsgrove 6c 499
Phillips Alice Maria Bromsgrove 6c 499
Thomas Phillips her grandfather is visiting the family in Dodford in 1891.
Deaths Mar 1896
Phillips Annie Margaret 39 Bromsgrove 6c 229
Regards
Valda
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Valda:
Thank you for this reply and your interest and research. We had most of this information, but not the death date of Annie, which is earlier than I had thought. In a letter sent by her cousin Jack Hughes to his fiancee (published in the book 'Dearest Beatie, My Darling Jack') on June 13 1898 Jack wrote:
'... Then there is our poor cousin at Dodford, she has been ailing again and Mother has been over to comfort her a little, so she has been quite busy. ...'.
I had assumed this referred to Annie and had looked for a death refernce between 1898 and 1901, but obviously it must have been Maria who is referred to.
I attach a photo of Ann Phillips, mother of Joseph and Susannah and of Jack's mother (Jane, my great-grandmother, who the following year, by then Mrs Phelps, bought a house in Dodford), and wife of the widowed Thomas Phillips you mention.
Mark
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Addition to last message:
As you are following up records, I forgot to say, so far as records are concerned:
1 - Ann Philllips, in the photo, was a witness at the marriage in 1855 of Joseph and Ellen, the other being William Seston.
2 - In the 1901 census Susannah and Charles Cooper are living in Dodford in the house Jane Phelps had bought - I don't know where Jane Phelps and her husband were, possibly out of the country.
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Valda:
Another addition - sorry, I am just new to Rootschat, since masgrace started this thread.
There are two rootschat threads started by samul1 in 2007 which in fact refer to the same family, mentioning the Ann Phillips who is in the photo:
Birmingham st phillip's parish look up request
London Middlesex - Ann Angel
As you have been following records up I thought you might like to know this.
Since the Ann Angel thread was started, we think we may have found an answer - a Cannon / Angel marriage in East London, from which it looks as if there were several granddaughters with name Ann Cannon born around the right time - one is quite likely to be the Ann we are looking for, though no way of deciding which.
We have got rather away from the lions, but it was Ann's son who was said to have died while in the ring with them.
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Do you know where Annie Margaret is buried? Are there any gravestones for the family which might reference to Joseph and Ellen?
Alice Maria's birth certificate would supply the last known information about her father's occuaption and would confirm whether he was still alive.
Regards
Valda
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Something of a longshot, as most of the queries are more recent:
http://www.circushistory.org
This is presumably one of your contacts:
http://creativegraces.net/data/seston.doc
Richard
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rjknott:
Thank you.
The circus site is interesting. With a search I couldn't find any reference to Joseph Phillips but there is one to John Cooper:
'ORLANDO, Dick. Circus artiste. Was helping John Cooper, the lion tamer, in Milan, on 24th May 1870, when his arm was blown off by a gun. Survived the accident.'
The second ref. is the site of masgrace who started this thread.
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Valda:
As you suggested, I have obtained the certificates for the children's births, Maria's marriage and Annie's death.
The information about Joseph's profession is similar to that on his own marriage record. On Annie's birth certificate and Maria's marriage certificate he is described as 'Musician'. On the marriage certificate (10 Feb 1884) he is noted as 'deceased'.
On Maria's birth certificate he is described as 'Professor of Music'. For both births the mother, Ellen, is the informant.
Strangely, Joseph is also mentioned on Annie's death certificate (7 March 1896), although English (as opposed to Scottish) death records do not contain a space for information about the deceased's father. In the column headed ' Occupation' is written 'Wife of Joseph Phillips, Musician' - although this is scarcely an occupation and she was of course his daughter rather than his wife. I guess there must have been some confusion when the informant (her brother-in-law George Dolphin, 'present at the death') gave the information.
As you say, the fact that we haven't found Joseph or Ellen in 1861 doesn't mean that they must already have died. As reported, the story is that they lived with their grandparents because their parents were working away rather than because they were immediately orphans.
Best wishes,
Mark Todd
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What an interesting thread!
As John Cooper seems to have travelled abroad with the circus, you might want to try the Overseas death indexes (primarily the Consular death indexes). If the death of either Phillips was registered with the British authorities in the country where they died it should be there (but some deaths were not registered).
The Times shows that in 1865 John Cooper was in Turin (with six lions), so an overseas death does seem quite likely.
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Hello,
I'm getting lost on this thread, it has drifted somewhat from the original post :)
Who is it we are looking for ............ the lion trainer John Cooper 1840/1920 ?
Have we agreed on who got killed by lions in the circus ring? If we have, I may be able to help. :)
kind regards
Jim
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Jim:
Thank you for bringing this thread back to life after some months. It would be wonderful if you could supply some information.
Actually we don't know if anyone was killed by lions, but this is the story that has been handed down.
What we know is:
Joseph Phillips married Ellen Halliday in Bromsgrove 1855, aged about twenty and eighteen, and they had two children. We know the children were brought up by their grandparents in Dodford and Birmingham. No record reference to either Joseph or Ellen can be found after the children's birth records, the second being in 1860. In the 1861 census or any later we can't find Joseph or Ellen, nor have we yet found death records for either of them. In the records we have, Joseph's profession is described as 'musician'.
The local historian of Dodford interviewed the late Alfred Dolphin, great-grandson of Joseph and Ellen, about twelve years ago. He told her that his family story was that Joseph and Ellen's children had been brought up by grandparents as their parents were circus artists, Joseph being known as 'Major Phillips'. |The story was that 'Major Phillips' had died in the ring of a heart attack and that Ellen had been killed during a stunt when she put her head in a lion's mouth.
This is the story we have been trying to authenticate or otherwise.
The reason that I have brought John Cooper into the thread is that there was a family connection with Joseph Phillips - this might explain how Joseph got involved in the circus in the first place, or conversely confusion in the family's mind with John Cooper, a famous lion-tamer, might have led to a dramatic story about Joseph's death being dreamt up and improved over the generations.
The connection was that John Cooper's brother Charles was married to Joseph Phillips's sister Susannah. John Cooper certainly did not die in the ring as in 1911 he is alive and well in retirement, recorded as living with Charles' Cooper's widowed son-in-law Thomas Stead. (To add another quite irrelevant dramatic death to the thread, Thomas was the nephew of the editor W.T.Stead who was to die in the Titanic the following year).
If you can help with any information or clues about the deaths of Joseph and Ellen, it would be much appreciated.
Best wishes,
Mark
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I'll ask around for you.......... in the meantime I thought you might like to see what the 'head in the lions mouth' trick actually looks like ;D
Here is Pablo Noel doing his version in the 1960s ....... one of the best !
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Hi - I got sidetracked by your fascinating story and came across an old book which gives a great account of John Cooper's lion taming act..It is digitised as PDF here... (Cooper is on about page 14 I think)
http://www.rootschat.com/links/06bm/
&
http://www.rootschat.com/links/06bn/
Milly
;D ;D
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Thanks for that Milly ......... very interesting ;D
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And there is a reference here to an entertainer called "Major Phillips" but it is rather late - in the 1920s...and he is referred to as a tramways expert and is working with hydrogen balloons! It doesn't sound like him....but he could possibly be a relative I suppose who took on the name?
http://www.rootschat.com/links/06bo/
Milly ;D