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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: MissM on Friday 15 August 08 14:24 BST (UK)
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On a visit to a National Trust property in Speke, Liverpool yesterday I was shown an item by the archivist ( a friend of mine) of a linen sheet with small card squares on, each marked with a graph and symbols. It is marked on the back with the name of the owner of Speke Hall, Richard Watt and he lived there from 1740 to 1865. We have no idea what this could be so I suggested asking Rootschatters!
I have photographed three of the squares, one of which has pencil writing on which is practically illegible but could be names of people. One looks like Caroline but another looks like Spanish.
If anyone could help, we'd both appreciated it!
Thanks,
MissM
Edit: Have had to delete photos following request from NT. 25/08/08
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Edit: Have had to delete photos following request from NT. 25/08/08
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Fascinating! Will give it some thought - but in the meantime...
It is marked on the back with the name of the owner of Speke Hall, Richard Watt and he lived there from 1740 to 1865.
...did Richard Watt really live there for 125 years? :o :o :o
Anna
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Doh!
I guess the smell of the cow dung used to make the walls of Speke Hall fogged her brains a bit when Chris was working it out! It was a quick guess from memory as I was leaving!
Looking at the web site there were three Richards in residence over the years so I'm going to say that during the years from 1795 to 1878, one of these was living there and made these drawings!
How's that for a cop out? ;D
MissM
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Doh!
Looking at the web site there were three Richards in residence over the years so I'm going to say that during the years from 1795 to 1878, one of these was living there and made these drawings!
How's that for a cop out? ;D
MissM
dug yourself out of that one well ;)
steve
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could they be a game of battleships?.
........................ naw!... tooo early :D
seriously though,
how about patterns for a quilt or something along those lines?
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Wonder if it's got something to do with the gardens ?? :-\ Your Richard started it .... and one of the other Richards finished it !!
http://www.nationaltrust.org.uk/main/w-vh/w-visits/w-findaplace/w-spekehall/w-spekehall-gardensandestate.htm
I love that place .... you're so lucky to be able to go there Lynne !! :) :)
Annie :)
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An astronomical fortune telling thingy ??????????
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Semaphore???? ???
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well im not too good at these kinda things but my first impression was somebody doodling - you knbow like we all do when we're on the phone? i know they didnt have phones lol but it is kinda like that - we colour in squares n triangles n stuff when were preoccupied doing summat else...
Alison
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Could it have been a roster or a gardening (planting) plan, ... drawn up for the benefit of workers who could not read? ???
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How large is it MissM? What is sheet size, large dark square size, and small square size?
I read yesterday that the estate was 2400 acres, and thought that it could be some type of "plat" layout for the property. Without any indication of what the many symbols might signify, it is very difficult.
Nick
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My thoughts were more in the sewing plans possibly a cross stich pattern
Edna
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Are these items really that old? Sorry, but the cynic in me suggests the colours of the symbols look like modern-day felt-tipped pen doodles?! ???
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Freemasonry ??
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a map of the stars?
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A picture version of sudoku? ;D
Very intriguing.
I've tried to enhance the photos to try to read the pencil text, but can't make it out.
The symbols and shading look non-random, so I don't think it's doodling. From what you say, there are a number of these fixed (glued?) to a sheet. That suggests it's something that's meant to be viewed as a whole (as we might draw up a family tree on separate sheets of A4, but to get the overall picture you have to fit all the sheets of paper together).
It doesn't look to me like a garden/planting plan - there's no flow or layout to the "design" (if it is a design).
For those who've suggested that it's something to do with needlework - are you guessing, or does it actually look like a needlework pattern - i.e. could a cross-stitcher/quilter/embroiderer or whatever today actually translate it into something?
Not sure it helps at all, but is the grid pre-printed on the paper? If it's on pre-printed paper, then it follows that someone is making the paper like that for a reason. Was graph paper made like that back then? Actually, if it's pre-printed graph paper, the squares would presumably be drawn out into fractions of inches: I don't know what the size of these sheets are, but it doesn't look like they're inches divided up. These are 3x3 grids, which then combine into a 5x5 grid and then into a 2x2 grid.
I can't think of anything that standardly divides up into fifteenths. ???
If it were a game of some sorts (an early version of battleships as already suggested), there might be more correlation between different grids? A B1, D7 grid referencing system printed on the paper would make that more likely. But why would they have been kept and all put together on one sheet?
The fact that they went to the trouble of preserving them, suggests they must have had some significance. Maybe where it was found, and what was kept with it might help?
If you want a completely random guess that I don't think anyone else has suggested yet, how about some form of coded message? That might explain why there is some pencil writing too - someone working out the code? But that's just a guess, and really I'm just completely perplexed!
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Hi MissM,
Could you give us a little more information please?
1. How big was the linen sheet?
2. How many squares were stuck to it (across and down please).
3. Would you be able to get more pictures? I would be most interested in an overall shot of the whole sheet (if possible) and of of each square if there aren't too many.
4. Were these three the most interesting ones or were they all about as detailed and complex?
Thoughts
The squares filled with triangles reminds me of a method of manual mapping I vaguely remember being taught as a child by my father. He was an entomologist and he was showing me how they map the insect damage of a field.
Perhaps it's something like a dowsing map. The dowser walks the garden in a grid pattern while an assistant notes the responses in the correct grid on his 'map'. The code used to fill in each square can be highly complex and subtle but there are common themes to these codes.
The codes are usually designed so that adjacent squares with particular markings show particular patterns. See in these images how the small red triangles seem to join up in places to form a line.
This looks like a fascinatingly complex code. I would guess the colours indicate a different kind of reading, perhaps from a different measuring device. The fact that they seem to use mostly the same code is very interesting, and yet the cyan arcs are fascinating because they may imply a direction to the measurement.
Remember that this need not be dowsing, all this could apply to any manual mapping process of a walkable area.
It is interesting that the colours used are exactly cyan/magenta/yellow. The exact opposites of our more familiar red/green/blue.
Still thinking ...
Paul
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Actually, ... I wasn't thinking of a gardening "plan" so much as a gardening roster ... this plant is represented by the big red "X", and it needs to be planted at this time ... the weeding of the circular garden is represented by a square, and needs to be done whenever ...
Ermmm ... does that make sense? ???
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I just LOVE Speke Hall too! ;D
This is a fascinating puzzle - I have NO clue what it may be. I'm curious about the fabric - how are the card squares attached to the linen sheet?
The colours do look very bright - are we sure this isn't a hoax? When was it discovered?
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Fascinating, whatever it is. I'll follow this with interest.
Kathleen
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Paul Caswell's suggestion is intriguing and persuasive, though I have one question related to that: would you use the same grid regardless of the size of the field?
E.g. if your field is 300 yards by 300 yards that works with the grids posted by MissM. But what if your field is 75 yards by 600 yards?
I hadn't spotted that the colours were CMY as opposed to RGB. Though of course CMY (especially as CMYK, where K is black) is now a very common set of colours ...
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My thoughts were more in the sewing plans possibly a cross stich pattern
Edna
That's my thought gone for a burton :(
I'll head back to the drawing board for another idea.
If it's any help the Ulster Museum have been kind enough to include a list of experts on their website. Have the National Trust or other museums posted such lists? www.ulstermuseum.org.uk/ask-the-experts
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in astronomy symbols are used to represent the planets,sun,moon etc and while these are not the same they might be richards version and this is the way he recorded the numerous objects moving through the night sky. you could check to see if richard watt had any interest in astronomy.
tony
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How many squares are there altogether MissM?
Is your archivist friend able to narrow down the date?
My daughter thinks it's a game. I was thinking along those lines too, but the curved shapes have thrown me. I notice some squares have crosses in and there are some mound shapes with crosses on - I'm thinking churches, I'm thinking a village plan? Not normally the way this would be portrayed :-\.
Maybe it is a game - a 'home made' one .... ?
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Some squares have an X and others a + One has a wigwam shaped object and another has a part moon shape. Does the fact that the large squares are 5 x 5 whilst the small ones are 3 x 3 relate to anything?
How many little signs are they and what's the break down of these items? How many Xs, +s etc? Do any other archives hold a similar object or even one with similar signs?
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Actually, this is so intriguing, I'd suggest they contact BBC NorthWest news and see if they'd be interested in filming a short piece on it for broadcast.
We are in the supposed "silly season" for news, so they might be grateful for something that isn't Olympics!
Even if there's no response from viewers, it would be good, free publicity for Speke Hall.
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... and for RootsChat 'experts' who can't come up with an answer ...
the answer MUST be out there somewhere !
(Its not 1st April, is it ?)
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With respect to the archivist - it is not difficult for an experienced person to date paper within fairly close limits i.e to within 30 years or so. Obviously the date of the paper is not an indication to the date of use.
The paper may have a watermark and that would be definitive.
Someone mentioned green ink. If it had been used it would have given a clue as all older green ink was based on copper sulphate which eventually ate through the paper.
From the scans I doubt that this graph paper which is machine feint-ruled has much age. The colour palette used for writing is certainly modern.
Normally, symbol codes on graph paper 9x9 indicate some variation on the noughts and crosses grid - very easy to decipher, but the widely different symbol sizes eliminate that.
I really should not hazard a guess but I should be very surprised if these sheets date earlier than 1950 or so but, as I say, there are hundreds of people who could date the paper without even any chemical testing if they had it to examine.
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Any chance of a wee photo of Speke Hall , Billy.
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http://www.nationaltrust.org.uk/main/w-spekehall
here you are. I wonder if they would reply to a letter about this artifact.
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Where is the mysterious MissM? Five days of answers and no response. Both Paul C. and I have asked for sizes of various pieces which might go a long way to determining what this thing might be.
Nick
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She was on the site Monday evening ...
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ok ive been having a bit of a think about this one again and have zoomed in on some bits. I still think its morea doodly type thing or its kiddes making some kind of game. i also think the age is erm somewhat newer than the age originally given because of a few factors:
-the colours are i would say created by felt tip pens (and these were invented in the 1960s). The colours are those which i see kiddies colouring with at school and more importantly, the colours which i can remember as a child.
- also you can see the smudge marks where the person has not been careful - lookx very much like kids freehand felt tip work to me. Give kids a big sheet of graph paper as such and they will start colouring in triangles and sqares and then theyll start being a bit more adventurous and doing more freehand stuff.
-the crosses are not exact or straight - look at the cross in the bottom left hand square on the first image - thats almost definitely done by a child i would say
- the red bits particularly i think point to felt tip pens - the reds in felt tips always dried pinky particulrly in those sets which werent very good as i remember! (i was an arty kid!) or if not it dried pinky later- AND i also fancy i can see the individual colouring in marks made by the pen (particularly red sqaure of bottom right hand square of first image)
thing is, if those colours arent felt tips, what on earth would they be...before felt tips i think they would have only had writing pens, crayons or paint - and its certainly none of those...
its just not the right colours to be those that are used in any decent kind of document like a manuscript - im working with manuscripts dating from the 1500s-1800s for my PhD and i havent seen colours like that from the inks they used back then - ESPECIALLY not that sky blue colour which someone has drawn a moon with!
also i would agree with the person above that said that the graph paper dates it to the 20th century.
nope definitly kids i would say - perhaps it is some kind of game
Alison
Just some thoughts...
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It reminds me a bit of a battleships game ?
And my kids had a computer space attack game back in the days of candle-powered Sinclairs which was played on a grid very like these ... and they used to work out moves on graph paper ...
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The 3x3 and 5x5 pattern does fit with the kind of survey I saw being done.
At each 3x3 square you would stand in the middle square and if something applied to all nine squares then you drew the correct shape in the bigger square. You would then examine each smaller square to record fine detail.
I think the outer 5x5 arrangement helps provide a reasonable number of measurements before you have to move your guidelines.
Each shape you draw indicates the reading. Perhaps one line for a low reading, a cross for slightly higher, then an outline, then a solid triangle, and finally a solid square. There are others here, an equals, some Y shapes, a teepee shape, and those lovely arcs.
The reason it all works is because the human eye can see patterns of particular shapes and colours very easily, especially if the shapes are more solid for higher readings. Note how the first image shows a kind of leaning back backwards question-mark shape in red triangles and similar shape in yellow running almost parallel to it.
If anyone from Photo Restoration is watching could you see if the very light writing on image 2 (looks like pencil) could be brought out in some way? If this is a survey of a garden they may write notes on some squares to explain some readings. 'Holly Bush' comes to mind. :)
A very good point on the felt-tips. These may not be that old but they are still fascinating.
Paul
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Hi Everyone
Edna kindly told me of all your replies and the interest these squares have generated. We had a family crisis at the weekend and it is still continuing, hence why I have not been in here. I also didn't get any notifications of replies on this thread when I checked my emails, so I didn't look in. My apologies for not getting back to your messages.
Thank you so much for all your interest. I'm going to send your messages to Chris but in the meantime, I'm going to try and give you a bit more info.
I would say the whole sheet is about 3 foot square and the smaller squares are about 5 or 6 inches square. I think the big sheet is linen and the smaller squares are card. At one end on the back of the sheet at the initial RW in black ink and at the other Richard Watt. These appear to have been printed (or possibly stamped) and not written.
I would say crayons were used to colour the symbols and the 'graph' lines are drawn with pencil. I would put my whole weeks supply of chocolate on the fact that no felt tips were used! (Did I really just say that???) The writing is in pencil and appear to be cursive which suggest an adult hand. Some of the colours appeared to be lightly coloured in as if the position was not definite.
The Speke Hall estate owned and was surrounded by 2000 acres of farmland in an area that definitely isn't square, and neither were any of the farms within it. I guess the gardens at the Hall could've been different then though.
Until 1876 there weren't any Churches on that land so I don't know if the crescent crosses were connected to religion at all.
The Hall eventually passed into the hands of the last Richard's niece when she was 21 years old (I think this was 18750) but previously, other tenants had been looking after the place. I guess anyone could have taken a sheet with Richard's initials on and made a game on one side but I'm hoping it was one of the Richards that did it.
Thanks again for all your suggestions, I hope we do find an answer to all this!
Best wishes,
Lynne
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Oh No! :o
I've just read Alison's post about the felt tips!!!!
Can I take back my stake of a whole week's supply of chocolate before anyone claims it?
Please?
Lynne
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oh well lol it def looks like felt tip from where im standing! But as you have seen the original ill take your word for it that its crayons - but the colours as displayed on my monitor really look to vivid and solid to be crayons in my opinion!
Good luck
Alison
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I can just believe that this was done with rubber stamps and some kind of ink pad but it looks a bit too freehand to me.
The colours would support the rubber stamp idea as I believe cmy colours are much easier than rgb ones. They are certainly much cheaper.
MissM,
Thanks for the extra details. I didn't realise it was so small. How many squares were there? Across and down please.
Paul
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Why would the cards be glued on linen? (Miss M can you ask your friend if this definitely IS card on linen?) How have they remained stuck on for all this time (even if this was made in the 50's/60's)? If I glued cardboard on fabric, even with a special modern glue, and then folded it up, I don't think it would stay fully glued on for very long. The brightness of the colours doesn't ring true - once again, even if this was done in the 50's the colours would have faded substantially.
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MissM didn't mention the cards being stuck on ... her post said that they were on the linen. Paul mentioned stuck in his post. Maybe the cards are sewn on to the linen.
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Lynne was referring to the initials RW and the name Richard Watt as being Printed or stamped and not the patterns or the Graph pattern
I have looked at it at 200% and unable to read the pencil writing and at 400% it pixelates
Edna
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Ahh, OK thanks, Christopher - maybe MissM can confirm how they are attached?
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I have tried to enhance the second pic with photoshop, but it is still too small and difficult to read.
It would be better for MissM to post the images in the photo restoration board at a larger size (it is allowed in there ;D)
attached enhanced pic, just played with the contrast.
Margaret
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Is it possible someone in more recent times has copied an old doc. ??
Margaret
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As a child my friend and I made up a code to write messages to each other.....If it was still around I think we may have a debate about it.
Seems like the sort of code a child would devise to me.
Also I have kept many drawings and stories and such of my own childrens. Some of which may well draw debate if they were to be published.
Still you never know....... :-\
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i had hoped somebody would have solved this by now!
it was on my mind all last night, looks like i'm going to have
another day of seeing squares in my head.
the fact he used graph paper must mean he was trying to
put down in small scale something that was large scale? :-\
anything else, a normal piece of paper would have been easier to find :-\
tony
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Hello everyone
I have spoken to Chris and she is as flumoxed as the rest of us!
I am going to go down to the Hall and take better photographs of the said item from all angles (!) I actually used my phone to take the ones posted here although they have turned out really well.
Chris is going to let me know the best time to go in so as soon as I can get them taken, I'll post them here again.
thanks for all your continuing itnerest!
Lynne
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Look forward to it. They ARE good pictures considering. While you're there maybe you could take one or two pictures of the house as well ;).
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Wow! Taken with a 'phone? Blimey, you must have a posh 'phone to take pictures of that quality.
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Crikey what a puzzle, but i think by looking at it, it was done by a child, proberly his/hers made up game
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Good idea MissM.
Could you please please please try really hard to photograph the writing. I think that would be our best bet at cracking this puzzle.
Also helpful would be to look closely at the colours and try to decide if its felt-pen or ink.
Try to get some idea how the cards are attached to the linen. If it is glue, note its colour and whether it is cracked and brittle or not and did it soak through the linen.
Oh I do wish I could come with you and have a look myself. I'm too far away though. :(
Paul
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was graph paper and coloured pens invented back then?
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Graph paper, yes.
Coloured inks, yes.
Not sure about that shade of blue, though...
meles
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Lynne
I have just posted this story on the BBC gardening board with the URL to the thread just to see if the garden plan theory holds any water so may be a few people adding to the thread who are unfamiliar on rootschat
Edna
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Lynne
I have just posted this story on the BBC gardening board with the URL to the thread just to see if the garden plan theory holds any water so may be a few people adding to the thread who are unfamiliar on rootschat
Edna
Should we send queries to inventors of children's games too ???
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Lynne
I have just posted this story on the BBC gardening board with the URL to the thread just to see if the garden plan theory holds any water so may be a few people adding to the thread who are unfamiliar on rootschat
Edna
Should we send queries to inventors of children's games too ???
And I'll try to find some entomologists .... ;D
Paul
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The Watts owned Speke Hall and its surrounding estate from 1795 - 1921 and were responsible for much of the building’s refurbishment
A substantial portion of their wealth came from sugar plantations on St George’s Plain in the West Indies
I wonder if Richard was doodling about planting the sugar ?? .... part calendar / part graph of planting :)
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0456/
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It's just struck me ... could the cards be plans for the rooms in Speke Hall ???
The markings might show the positions of the family collection of antiques and furniture
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I have tried to enhance the second pic with photoshop, but it is still too small and difficult to read.
It would be better for MissM to post the images in the photo restoration board at a larger size (it is allowed in there ;D)
attached enhanced pic, just played with the contrast.
Margaret
Well done Margaret. When I saw the original postings I thought my 11 Plus IQ test had come back to haunt me ;D
I'm pretty sure 2 or 3 squares south east of the crescent show the universal wavy blue water sign. Does, or did, the garden have a lake. If so, what do the little red squares signify - and they're not just in the water, they're all over the place, either in a square or beside another shape. I'm wondering if it's a small scale plan of the gardens and the owner is thinking of placing some form of power on the estate. Maybe a powered fountain in the lake and a powered gushing waterfall at one end of the lake. As the Speke website doesn't show or describe much of the landscape I don't know if the large red squares denote other places that would require a power line such as the lodge, or a grotto, etc., etc.
Cheers,
Rena
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I do not think it is a garden plan.
For one main reason - I would expect to see some kind of pathways if that were the case.
I know when I draw up plans for my yard the first thing that goes in are existing structures and pathways that will not be changed.
Looking forward to seeing the new photos and info.
Margaret
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Hi all
I've spoken to the Archivist, Chris and she is getting permission for me to go in again and take the photos. The National Trust are very careful who they let in to the non-public areas of their properties and very protective of their antiquities so I was very lucky to get in to see the archives.
I've been reading all your notes and have thought about the grounds around the Hall. There is a small but lovely lake but no waterfall or fountain there. In recent years the Trust has redeveloped an overgrown water garden but it is quite small and does have a path running through it.
There is space for a moat at the front of the building which is built in a square around a small courtyard with two mighty oak trees in, but I don't know if the moat was ever filled in because the channel isn't evident at the back and one side of the Hall has other buildings on it.
If you search in Google maps for Speke Hall you can get a fairly recent bird's eye view of the Hall and it's current surrounding grounds. Up until the 1920's the Hall owned the whole of the Speke Estate which is now full of houses and industry to the East of the Hall, including the Airport.
Regarding the cards themselves, I didn't notice any glue around the edge as you would expect to see so it didn't seem a casual effort. I guess the colouring in could have been done by a child as suggested but the pencil (I think!) graph lines seemed very precisely drawn. I will look more closely when I get back there and will take macro shots of the writing.
I might be able to get hold of a plan of the rooms when I next visit to see if Chris's idea is anywhere near the mark!
I'll keep you posted of any further developments and I'll post a few photos we've taken ourselves of the grounds and Hall. Thanks so much for all your ideas!
Lynne
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Hi MissM,
Hope you are still awake/online when I finish this in case your next visit to Speke Hall is tomorrow.
Be sure to take a tape measure, or ruler to get measurments. I worked as a draftsman for 2 years prior to college, and during summers. I have seen a lot of graph paper, but none that has a 3x3 in a 5x5 grid. Maybe it is metric?
A brief search shows up lots of various grid sizes but nothing comparable.
I'd like to know smallest square size and we can extrapolate total size per card. Also, how many squares on the assumed 3 foot square linen? It appears to be 6, which would give a size per card of about 10 inches square.
Thanks,
Nick
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I'm fascinated, have no idea what it is at all, so just bookmarking so I can find the thread again.
Lizzie
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I would like to know if the grid has been printed (commercially) or ruled up by hand. If hand ruled, this may be why the grid size makes no sense to Nick?
Having said that, it does look extremely neat like it is printed ....
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I believe MissM mentioned a couple of times that it appears to be hand-drawn (ink I think). Regardless, most people would use some logic in creating any grid: e.g. 1 mm = 1 meter, or 1/8 inch = 1 foot, etc.
If I had slept more than 3 hours last night I might be able to make a more straightforward argument, but let's say the small squares are 5 mm. square and represent 1 meter sq. "in real life". That would mean each 3x3 space = 9 sq meters and each 5x5 grid = 45 sq meters. Each full card (4 5x5 grids) would = 180 sq meters.
I think that most people are "decimal" oriented so would logically think in 10-based numbers. So if I want to represent 100 sq meters I determine to use 10mm = 1 meter, 100mm = 10 meters, and 1000mm = 100 meters. The smaller 3x3 grid throws a monkeywrench into this logic.
Please excuse my verbosity - I get that way when I have had little sleep. ;D
Nick
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Just book marking out of interest..been there twice and actually met the ghost :o
mab
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Oh...you met the ghost did you...just dropping that casually in your post and then signing off? Well, think again...we're not going to let you get away with that sort of thing... ;D
We demand, demand, I tell you, a complete account. Every detail, blow by blow, the whole story.
Come on, give ;D ;D ;D
Cheers,
China
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Yeah, I think I would like to know a bit more about the ghost. ;D
Margaret
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China I was a young mother on my first visit....and they have a loverly tour...it's a beautiful house but I got bored and stepped out on my own ...not...ok my son ran off and I followed him ;D ...so I went ahead of the tour and we wandered into a room and there was a woman crying at a window...I felt so bad for her that I approached and she disappeared...I get goose bumps every time I remember ...and then the tour guide entered the room and I found out about the ghost :o :o :o :o
mab...still having goose bumps at the memory :o If you google you'll find out who the ghost is and her sad story :-\
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:o I love these kind of stories.
I wonder if she was crying because no-one could figure out her little plan ::)
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Although Watt's son lived briefly at Speke before his early death, it was not until his son, the last Richard Watt carried out a major programme of restoration work. The house was then leased to Frederick Leyland, a shipping magnate and patron of the arts, who was responsible for carrying out further restoration work on the ground floor rooms in 1867-78.
maybe his doodle
or maybe where the ladies had to stand in their coloured dresses
sylvia
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Surprise...goosebumps are apparently contagious ;D ::) :o
China
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Okay, I googled...according to one account the young woman killed herself and then her baby... :o
C
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Yes. The true story about the ghost is very sad...I googled but haven't been able to find the correct story. If I do I will post it. Truly sad.
mab
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Brief account here, with another interesting account of a more recent incident...scroll down a bit...
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0459/
China
....just before bedtime, too... :o
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I met only one ghost in my two visits :P Second time around I was not too happy about being there...I didn't go inside :P It is an amazing house. If you ever get the chance to go there you can feel history happening...it's a very lovely house. Well worth a visit...barring ghosts ;D
mab
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Okay, I googled...according to one account the young woman killed herself and then her baby... :o
C
How could she kill herself and THEN (kill) her baby ??
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Completely off on a tangent here but when I first looked at the images it brought to mind a game described in a book by Martin Gardner which I think had some association with the 18th C mathematician Euler.
I've got the book somewhere but decided to Google it instead - in the process I can across this page http://swiss2.whosting.ch/mdetting/eulersquare.html which has squares within squares similar to symbols in one of these images! I think it's purely co-incidental but interesting nevertheless.
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Reminds me slightly of those genetics diagrams of Mendel ...
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Nowadays known as Sudoku ;D
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A thought I had in bed last night ??? Is it some kind of diagram for a treasure hunt.
Lizzie
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After looking at the google maps I might take back that I did not think it was a plan of a garden.
In the googlemap there is a crescent shaped group of bushes in one of the open fields near the main building.
On one of the plans/graph sheets there is also a crescent shape.
Possible link there.
Also no paths to be seen. ::)
Margaret
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. . .also noted that in that same field which is enclosed by a road, on the left and right sides there are plantings of small trees.
On the right side they are on either side of the road - exactly 8 on each side of road and on the left side, only on one side but also 8 plantings.
I had hope they might match with the grids on the graph paper but I cannot see it.
May not be worth mentioning . . . but ya never know!! ;)
Margaret
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I met only one ghost in my two visits :P Second time around I was not too happy about being there...I didn't go inside :P It is an amazing house. If you ever get the chance to go there you can feel history happening...it's a very lovely house. Well worth a visit...barring ghosts ;D
mab
Hi Mab
You are quite right about the Hall's atmosphere - it is like stepping back in time. It feels, smells and looks so old and when I sat in the archive room, I did hear lots of creaks and groans, not surprising when you think how old the house is and how many planes fly over it in take off every day! My own house rattles from them sometimes!
I also heard the bells ringing downstairs as if calling the servants to attend their mistress but the guides told me this happens when a mouse runs along the top of them!
If anyone of you are able to visit, please do because it is well worth it.
Lynne
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Brief account here, with another interesting account of a more recent incident...scroll down a bit...
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0459/
China
....just before bedtime, too... :o
Hi China
I have met Tom Whatmore a couple of times and he is a lovely man. His book is an amazing history of a time in Speke that will never return: not just of Speke Hall but of the Mistress and her servants who lived there.
She cared deeply for the welfare of her tenant farmers, their families and the running of her estate; for the Church she had built for her people and the school she was Patron of for the children she cared about.
Thanks for posting the link to Tom.
Lynne
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I showed the diagrams to my OH. He says they look very familiar to him and at the back of his mind, he thinks it might be something to do with architecture. He was going to look into it, but the allotment beckoned. ::)
Lizzie
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The smaller 3x3 grid throws a monkeywrench into this logic.
Surely, if it is a scale drawing of something, 3 feet to the yard is quite a logical explanation.
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My OH's theory is that these are room layouts i.e., someone planning/designing where and how objects/furniture etc., fit into specific rooms.
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Decided to do a rough drawing of the field with the crescent shape bushes.
Not to scale ;D
and for the benefit of those finding this pic in 100 years - I drew it in pen and finished in photoshop ;D ;D ;D ;D
Key:
A - low shrubs
B - large tree
C- large tree
D - group of low plantings
E - group of low plantings
As mentioned earlier, rows of trees alongside road, most likely the beginnings of a hedge.
There are similarities to plan 2 but I don't think so.
Hope the image isn't too small.
Margaret
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Meg
Part of the garden is if I remember correctly..... it was a few many years ago that I last visited :P had a lot of "controlled" areas.....the second time I visited my MIL and myself decide to explore the gardens...just beautiful. It may have changed which would be a pity.
mab
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Decided to do a rough drawing of the field with the crescent shape bushes.
Pretty close - here's an aerial photo http://www.flashearth.com/?lat=53.336253&lon=-2.87408&z=19.3&r=243&src=msl
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did you notice that the crescent shaped shrub has a cross on if veiwed fron the side angle!? (or is this my imagination?)
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Thanks Geoff ;)
Actually had a look at that site, flashearth, and if you have the compass with north facing upwards, to the east of the main building is a structure that looks like an upside down 'E'.
Inside this structure appears to be courtyards with various bits and pieces, structures or whatever.
Couldn't make it out clear enough but could have some resemblence to our map. Will have to look at it better.
Jinzy, Not sure on the cross in the crescent shaped shrubs though. :-\
Margaret
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Better pics on Google maps
http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=speke&ie=UTF8&ll=53.336445,-2.873716&spn=0.00119,0.003433&t=h&z=19
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I got my Liverpool Teaching pack for Speke Hall, there isn't anything like those drawings but the documents which are dated fro 1500 t0 1700 do include a drawing of the gardens
there is a green with a pond and a larger pond similar to one o the shapes. but more interesting is the crescent shaped wall or barrier of some description around the Hall, with a garden and orchard adjacent to it.
will try and scan it This pack was bought when it cost 15 shillings or 75 pence. so must have been prior to 1974.
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I for one would love to see the drawings of the gardens, thanks Dancing Master :)
margaret
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Hi everyone
Bad news I'm afraid. :( :( :(
The National Trust have asked me to withdraw the photos because I posted the photos on the web without official permission and although we were doing it with only a good intention, they are discussing whether to let us continue. Apparently there are procedures that should have been followed to get approval first to put them on the internet.
I am so disappointed that something that started as a good intention has to end but for now I have to ask that we end the topic and if possible, make the photos unavailable. Can anyone help me with that please?
This has been a good distraction in a very sad and troubled week for me and your efforts to solve the mystery were very interesting and much appreciated.
I am still hoping the NT will allow us to continue the task and reopen the thread at some point in the future.
My apologies to all of you. If you want to pm me at any time with a solution that would be great (!) and I can let everyone else know who contributed to the thread.
So sorry,
Lynne
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Sorry to hear that Lynne. Take care. We will all be thinking about it because it is a mystery ;D
mab
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Does that mean that nobody is allowed to post any pictures of any National Trust properties, their interiors, land, etc etc etc without permission on any website? :-\
I hope they decide to do the right thing and give you "official permission" - after all, you're just trying to help them.
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Oh Phoooie,
Guess we won't tell them when we work it out. ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Yes I agree...if we ever figure it out :P
mab
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Can we start a new thread called :
"that pic that no-one is allowed to talk about' :P
Margaret
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Possibly.... ;D
mab
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The NT should allow you to continue. It could be used as part of a marketing campaign to attract more members to the Trust 8)
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Well we could only hope...after all we weren't doing any harm....and consider all the free advertisement we are giving to Speke Hall through our conversations ;D A lot of people read threads but don't contribute...they may think of visiting... ;D
mab
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That's sad to hear MissM. :(
Oh well. It was fun to try.
Do let us know if they change their mind.
Paul
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... just look at the number of times the topic has been read, and I for one looked at their website while I caught up with progress ... publicity for them around the world.
Best intentions indeed Lynne
Sorry you copped it ...
:) mare
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In their historical history pack from the late 1960's early 1970's, there are nothing like those drawings included. nor have I ever seen any on any of our visits.
the only drawing regarding the gardens is the one with the crescent shape on it which most certainly was not on graph paper, nor has the use of coloured inks.
I am wondering now whether they will object to my scanning the document. the only other option is to try and draw it and use it that way.
People are starting to clamp down on the use of copyright items
so that maybe what National Trust simply doing.
I have looked through all the folder and nowhere does it state any documents are copyrighted. It was produced by The Liverpool Teachers Archive Group and was designed to be used by children aged 9-13 years. This was bought for my elder son.
Perhaps a moderator might advise on it.
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What are the NT going to do about those of us who might have 'saved' your pictures for further consideration ?
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What are the NT going to do about those of us who might have 'saved' your pictures for further consideration ?
That's a good question, Lydart.
Maybe they'll trust those members and hope that they'll delete the saved pictures. Do you suppose that they'd obtain our e-mail addresses and send the copywrite people to our doors? That happened to a journalist who contributes articles to one of the Belfast papers. His children downloaded music. Action was taken against him from America and he ended up having to pay £2,500. If the children had spoken to their Dad prior to downloading they could have been registered on the site for £30 and downloaded to their hearts' content.
The Liverpool Teachers Archive Group don't have a website :(
Christopher
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These packs were made and distributed over 45 years ago. We bought several of them to begin teaching our son about history in the places we took him to visit. We also bought one about the Falls of Abraham - General Wolfe in Quebec (which we didn't visit) but was filled with wonderful copy documents etc., as well.
Don't know if these packs are still made though.
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What are the NT going to do about those of us who might have 'saved' your pictures for further consideration ?
Maybe they'll trust those members and hope that they'll delete the saved pictures. Christopher
Aww, do I have to :'( :-X :-X :-X
Margaret
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dan brown will be getting his typewriter out again :)
tony
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dan brown will be getting his typewriter out again :)
tony
He can probably afford a laptop now, after the success of 'The Da Vinci Code' !!
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Billy asked for a photo of Speke Hall. I attach a half-size scan of the drawing executed by Joseph Nash about 1869-- hope that will serve.
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Prince Charles is President of the National Trust. Perhaps he would be interested in the research. Should someone drop him a line??
http://www.rootschat.com/links/04ak/