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General => Armed Forces => World War One => Topic started by: SusieMc on Tuesday 12 August 08 15:13 BST (UK)
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Would love some help! :)
These pictures show Herbert Stuart WOLFE and crew mates in MArch 1917. From enlarging the image, it looks to me like the ship's plate and hat emblem say 'HMS Royal Oak'. The RCD on Herbert's shoulder is the Royal Canadian Dragoons.
According to my research the ship was involved in the Grand Fleet at the BAttle of Jutland. (Would this fit with a theatre of war code 'Balkans' code...?)
I have tried to look up his name on the medal roll, but the closest I could find was a listing for 'Herbt H Wolfe'. Presume it would be easy to get a middle name initial wrong?!
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&rank=1&gsfn=herbt+&gsln=wolfe&=&f16=&f14=&gskw=&prox=1&db=medalrolls&ti=5538&ti.si=0&gss=angs-d&pcat=39&fh=0&recid=4764444&recoff=1+2+3
I cannot get to Kew Archives, is there anyone who can access the information on this record for me to check?
Also, I had heard that he had joined the Royal Canadian Dragoons in 1914, and yet this medal roll lists him as being in the Liverpool Regiment (highly likely as he lived in the city before and after the war). Was there any connection between the two?!
Any help very gratefully received!
Thanks,
Susie
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The Battle of Jutland, HMS Royal Oak by Anthony Saunders
The Battle of Jutland was fought in the North Sea between the 31st May and the 1st of June 1916. The British Grand Fleet had been virtually unopposed for nearly a century but now there was a challenge to the throne; the German Navy. Although smaller, it had caught up fast and by the time of Jutland, had some telling advantages over the British Fleet. the plan for the battle was to lure the British Grand Fleet into a lethal trap in German waters. In the event although desperately fought by both sides, the battle was a stale mate. the confused conflict was hampered on both sides by bad luck, bad weather and poor communications. at the end of the battle, the Royal navy had suffered higher losses in men and ships, but the German fleet never ventured out of harbour to seek battle again.
The Battle of Jutland proved to be the last capital ship big fleet battle of the twentieth century. Here HMS Royal Oak is seen leading HMS Superb and HMS Canada as part of the 4th battle squadron at around 7pm on the 31st of May 1916.
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His attestation papers are on the Canadian Collections ... but they seem to be having difficulties right now !! ::) keep trying ... if you don't already have them ...... his cap badge looks like this ... which is Kings Liverpool but on his shoulder is RCD ..... Royal Canadian Dragoons :-\ and the cap badge of the RCD is similiar ! ... I believe it's RCD !! :)
http://www.rootschat.com/links/041s/
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Badge is vaguely similar to the Kings Liverpool, Annie, but not quite the same. .... I see you beat me to it :)
http://www.central.cadets.ca/public/LHQ-QGL/2870army/images/2870crest-lg.jpg
Susie, ignore that medal card as it's not him.
If he was in the Royal Navy as well then his service record should be online, but I don't see it.
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Thanks everyone! I'll keep trying the Canadians! I am fairly convinced it's the RCD he was in so will take your advise and ignore the Medal Card!
Out of interest, what was the background to people at that time joining a Canadian military regiment? Herbert was from Liverpool...would he have had to go to Canada for this? he certainly became a wanderer in later life...in fact he disappeared leaving his wife and children!?
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Just one thing though...
The HMS Royal Oak picture shows Herbert (back row, 4th from right)...would this imply that he was in the Royal Navy as well as the RCD? Or is there another possible explanation... ???
Susie
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The HMS Royal Oak picture shows Herbert (back row, 4th from right)...would this imply that he was in the Royal Navy as well as the RCD? Or is there another possible explanation...
Yes that's what it implies. Obviously though he couldn't be in both at the same time.
Another explanation is that the pictures actually show different people, but only you can be the judge of that.
Can't think of any other explanation immediately.
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The only other thing I can think of is that the date on the Royal Oak picture is wrong !! :-\
Depending on the date on his attestation papers .... it could have been before or after the war ! I would suggest that it may have been the way he got to Canada .... and he possibly jumped ship ... and joined up there ! ( I have one of those !! those Liverpool lads can be a pain to trace !! .... especially when the Navy is involved !! ::) )
Annie :)
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If he jumped ship in Canada he would have it on his Service Record(if you can find it!)....Just wondering if sailors in wartime wore the ships name on their cap tallys or just had HMS Ships in case of spys??
Ady
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Ok...he was definitely in the Navy and the RCD!
Here he is again aboard a ship - presume the same HMS Royal Oak?
Interesting idea that he jumped 'ship' at some point....
Strange not to be able to find a record of him for the Navy though!?
Interestingly he signed his marriage certificate H. Stuart WOLFE, so perhaps I should start looking under Stuart as well...
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Oops...forgopt to add pic to last post!
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Hopefully someone can date the ..ice cream sellers ..sorry.... ;D ... Naval uniforms.
He looks a tough old b***** in the RCD uniform :)
Ady
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Ady - your ice-cream seller comment made me laugh out loud!
I was told by my late mother in law (his daughter) that he was very charistmatic! I think he was most definitely a girl in every port kind of guy... ;)
He 'disappeared' later in his life, abandoning his wife and children in Liverpool without warning. Last heard of in a very brief letter to his mother saying 'all's well', with a postmark from Wellington, New Zealand. So he was clearly something of a wanderer....
Hope someone can help with dating the uniform... fingers-crossed!
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Just a shame we cant read all the Battle Honours in the background of the Royal Oak photo as that would give us approx date.
Ady
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Can't seem to get his attestation papers on the Canadian archives site...
And still nothing to link him to the British navy...
Very frustrating! Would love to have some kind fo a breakthrough...
Will, keep pluggung away and hope someone more experienced than me can help.
Susie
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I asked Karen M on the Canada board and she said it's not us ...... some of them were too bad to copy therefore not available on line to see attestation papers ... and there are quite a few like that !
Wonder if he did it on purpose !! ::) ::) ::)
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His file may still available even though the attestation papers are not available. It's a free call for me, so if you want I can call LAC in the am and find out what's available for him.
Karen
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Just a shame we cant read all the Battle Honours in the background of the Royal Oak photo as that would give us approx date.
I think we can read some of them but doesn't help as they're all very old battle honours. >:(
Lowestoft 1665
The Four Days 1666
St James Fight 1666
Velez Malaga 1704
At least they seem to confirm it's the Royal Oak. :)
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Thanks so much guys!
Karen - I'd LOVE for you to call and find what's available - that would be wonderful!!! Thanks you so much...let me know if there is anythign else you need from me to do so...
Susie :D
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Hi Susie,
I spoke with LAC (Library & Archives Canada) and since his name is on the database they do have a military file available, just his attestation papers are not on line.
The files can be from 25 pages to 75 pages. The most I have paid for a file is no more than $20.00 Canadian. They can be a wealth of information. On my gr grandfather's there was correspondence up to the 1930's when my gr grandmother was trying to obtain some sort of pension since my gr grandfather dissappeared in 1921 never to be heard from again.
They ususally take about 30 days to receive once they have received your request.
http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/databases/cef/001042-130-e.html?PHPSESSID=jvdg9oguhqh9vhs6ktdl6q5366#g
Karen
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Karen - thank you so much! I have ordered his file...can't wait to receive it now!! We have so little information on this man and he too 'disappeared'...
Fingers-crossed we get some clues to his life from his file...
Susie ;D
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How exciting you two !! :D :D :D
I can't wait now either !! :) :)
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Excellent Susie!! Fingers crossed for you.
Please let us know when you get them, like Annie, I can't wait either :)
Karen
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Hi everyone,
I thought I'd let you in on a related piece of family history whilst we wait on Herbert's Canadian military papers.
I have been puzzling over how he ever ended up in the Canadian military...and may have lighted upon something...
I had been told (by family) that his family were born in Liverpool, and had blithely gone along with it as my checks hadn't got that far...but this morning something came up which may give us a clue to Herbert's Canadian connection...
Herbert's grandfather was James Henry WOLFE. He was a Marster Mariner and Ship's Captain, so I requested confirmation of this from Lloyd's Captain's Registers. Guess what...no James WOLFE born in Liverpool c1833 as thought. BUT...there is a James Wolfe listed as a sea captain and he was born in Quebec, Canada in 1832! And to tie things back to Liverpool, he passed his Captain's Certificate of Competency in the city in 1856. The same year he married in Liverpool. :D
I've requested copies of his competency certificate form the NAtional MAritime Museum to see if it gives up any more information, and I've posted seperately for information, in case any kind sole is visiting the Guildhall and can look up his voyages in the Lloyd's Registers.
I'm really hoping this is our man!
Karen - any idea how I'd go about tracing him in Quebec?! Sorry to sound so clueless! :P
Susie
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HI Susie,
There is a baptism for James Wolfe, son of John Wolfe, journalies and Catharine Riley, baptised in November 1829 at Notre Dame Basilique, Quebec
It's in french and at the catholic church.
Still looking......
Karen
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Oh - thanks Karen! Fast work!
His marraige certificate would imply his father's name was also James Wolfe, and his profession is listed as 'clerk'.
Attached for reference:
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Hi Susie,
Just wondering if you have heard from the Canadian Archives yet??
Karen