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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Sussex => Topic started by: MalGordon on Saturday 09 August 08 06:00 BST (UK)
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I have lost a lot of my information when my PC crashed, but am getting it back together again.
I can still find no trace of my G Grandfather William Greaves. I have found an entry on the IGI site that gives his YOB as 1852, in Newick. I have tried lots of other avenues but can find no other entry for him. I am reasonably sure that this is the right one (as the entry gives his wife as Frances A).
I have census returns for him after they moved to Hewith and married, but his early days are still a mystery.
Can some one suggest any other avenues I can try. Being in Australia means I can not do a personal search and I can only try web sites.
William Greaves
Male
Event(s):
Birth:
1852 Newick, , Sussex, England
Christening:
Death:
Burial:
Marriages:
Spouse: Frances A.
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Hi
The IGI entry is a submitted entry - not an extracted record so somebody else is researching the same family. Submitted records are often unreliable
Do you have a copy of his marriage cert which will show his fathers name?
If he married Frances Anne Dobson here is the reference
Marriages March qtr 1875
Dobson Frances Anne South Shields 10a 864
GREAVES William South Shields 10a 864
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The 1881 census shows him as a sailor which may be why you cannot find him in 1871
There are also these 2 possibilities for not being able to find him in 1861
He was illegitimate
He was legitimate but his father died pre-1861
In both scenarios - if his mother married/re-married he may be on the 1861 under her new surname
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1861 census
Chailey - Sussex
Parish - Newick
RG9/585
Budgen Sarah Head W age 64 Charwoman Born Sussex Fletching
Greaves William Gson age 8 Scholar Born Sussex -Brighton
Could be him?
Regards
Marg
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Hi Marg
That could be him as Chailey registration district covered Newick according to this
http://www.ukbmd.org.uk/genuki/reg/districts/chailey.html
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Hi Marg
I give up - I cannot find Sarah & William on the Sussex 1861 on Ancestry. Can you post the full reference - folio and page number
1901 census shows birthplace as Brighton
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Thankyou Carol and Marg, the reference to Sarah Bugden opens another window. It would seem likely that there would have been probably a daughter of Sarah who either married a Greaves or certainly had a close liaison with one.
The census entry is for Fletching, Sussex and he is shown as being born in Brighton. I would think in those days most people lived married and died in close proximity to their birth place, so this looks promising.
I have tried the GenesReunited data base but could not find any birth for a Bugden in Sussex between 1817 and 1837, the most likely period. I have also placed a post on their Trying To Find board. Hopefully that might bring forth some further enlightenment Unfortunately the BDM only starts in 1837.
This is the only record I have been able to find relating to his birth. Unfortunately no further information is available from the IGI entry which I have pasted below.
IGI Individual Record FamilySearch™ International Genealogical Index v5.0
British Isles
Search Results | Download
William Greaves Pedigree
Male Family
Event(s):
Birth:
1852 Newick, , Sussex, England
Christening:
Death:
Burial:
Marriages:
Spouse: Frances A. Family
Messages:
Record submitted after 1991 by a member of the LDS Church. No additional information is available. Ancestral File may list the same family and the submitter.
Source Information:
No source information is available.
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1841 census HO107 1100/3 folio 7
Morgage Row Newick Sussex
James Budgin 40 Ag lab
Sarah Budgin 40
Christian Budgin 7
James Budgin 5
Elizabeth ?arland 12
all born Sussex
Christian was a female
Adult ages on the 1841 census usually rounded down to the nearest 5.
1851 census HO107 1643 folio 183
Rough Newick Sussex
Sarah Budgen 56 Head Widow Ag la Widow's Fletchen Sussex
Jane Budgen 27 Daughter Unmarried Newick Sussex
James Budgen 15 Ag lab Newick Sussex
1851 census HO107 1646 folio 132
75 West Street Brighton Sussex
Thomas Bryer 46 Head Married Cabinet maker Somerset
Mary Bryer 50 Wife Married Croydon Surrey
Christina Budgen 19 House servant Newick Sussex
William Greaves 18 (S?:L) Porter London Middlesex
Regards
Valda
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Hi
I found the entry for 1861 on freecen
Ennumeration District 10
Folio 125
page 12
schedule 64
address snells
hope this helps
Regards
Marg
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A possible death registration
Deaths Dec 1853
Greves Christiana Lewes 2b 81
Newick registers in Lewes registration district.
Regards
Valda
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Hi
I found the entry for 1861 on freecen
Thank heaven for freecen because we would never have found them on Ancestry
There is no transcription on Ancestry for the freecen reference and I have looked through all the Newick entries but neither Sarah Budgen or William are shown
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In possible fairness to Ancestry there is no index for RG6 585 folio 125 page 12 because page 12 is missing on the microfilm as shown by Ancestry - it skips from page 11 to page 13. Either that is Ancestry's fault or the original photographers error in skipping a page when photographing the enumerator's book.
To know you would have to know Freecen's original source and/or whether the same problem exists on other 1861 census indexes such as at Origins, or Findmypast.
Regards
Valda
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You girls are absolutely brilliant. A quick synopsis of the information you have gathered for me:
1841 Census Morgage Row, Newick.
James Budgin 40
Sarah Budgin 40
Christian Budgin 7
James Budgin 5.
1851 Census Rough, Newick.
Sarah Budgen 56, Widow.
Jane Budgen 27
James Budgen 15.
75 West Street, Brighton
Thomas Bryer 46
Mary Bryer 50
Christina Budgen 19
William Greaves 18
1853 Death Newick
Christiana Greves (Age unknown)
1861 Census Chailey
Sarah Budgen 64 Widow
William Greaves 8 grandson.
There are quite some possibilities here. The ages for 1841 were rounded down so it would seem there is a strong likelihood that Sarah is the same in the three census returns, although there is a 2 year discrepancy in the middle.
Christian could conceivably be Christina and Christiana, allowing for the poor literacy standard of the time. Similarly the changing of the name from Budgin to Budgen could be a spelling error.
Having a Christina Budgen and William Greaves residing at the same residence seems a very big coincidence. The death of Christiana Greves in 1853 also adds weight to William aged 8 living with his grandmother, with his DOB approximately 1852. Unfortunately the entry on FreeBDM does not give an age at death.
I know I am seeing things here that have not yet been proved but hopefully with a little more digging, I will be able to say yea or nay.
Once again thank you for your efforts, this site has amazing people as members, and nothing seems to be a problem to assist other searchers.
Possibly another visit to the local LDS centre is in order to search their records.
Cheers from Australia.
Gordon.
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In case the BUDGEN line is the right one
From the Sussex Marriage Index
Newick, East Sussex, 12 Oct 1832
James BUDGEN, bach
Sarah HARLAND, sp botp (B)
Extra Info: w: Lydia & Jn MARTIN Jas EDWARDS
The Elizabeth ?arland in 1841 was probably a HARLAND
Ian C
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I am awaiting the wedding certificate of William and Frances Dobson, in 1875, so hopefully that may also shed some light on this.
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I found a link to Sussex Weald
http://www.thesussexweald.org/a21.asp?QId=20512120&astart=184999999&aend=999999999
but unfortunately I could not find any information on there for any of the names I am seeking. I presume that this is a continuing work in progress and not all of the myriad of registers would have been transcribed.
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I have just received the copy of the wedding certificate of February 7, 1875 of William Greaves and Frances Ann Dobson. It does not provide much more information, however the groom's father is shown as William, occupation labourer. The bride's father is shown as John, occupation carpenter. Frances Ann is shown as being 17 years of age.
I was fairly certain that I had identified the correct Frances, but have just been checking again and have found differing dates. Southtyneside register office shows the birth in 1858. IGI and FreeBMD both have 1859 (IGI 21 February, 1859). I assume that all of these records have been transcribed from official records. Can someone suggest which would be the more reliable? The 1859 dates do not correspond with the age on the wedding certificate.
The bride was apparently illiterate as she signed with an "x" on the certificate.
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7th April 1861 census
RG9 3796 folio 53
Pelaw Main Hedworth, Monkton and Jarrow (South Shields Registration district)
John Dobson 44 Head Married Shipwright Dunston Durham
Elizabeth Dobson 37 Wife Married Gateshead Durham
Margaret Dobson 10 Daughter Bill Quay Durham
Isabella Dobson 7 Daughter Bill Quay Durham
Mary Dobson 4 Daughter Bill Quay Durham
Frances A Dobson 2 Daughter Pelaw Main
Since a birth has 6 weeks in which it can be registered a birth at the end of the year may be indexed in the subsequent next year's quarter of the GRO. The GRO index is made up from the local registrars' returns. The local registrar had to send their returns to the General Registry Office.
FreeBMD transcribed from the GRO index
Births Mar 1859
DOBSON Frances Ann S Shields 10a 491
So this birth could be in the months of November, December 1858 or January, February or March 1859. Without obtaining the certificate it isn't possible to know.
Baptisms do not always take place immediately after the birth of the baby. There is no birthdate given on this entry only the baptism date. This baptism took place in Gateshead about 3 miles away from Pelaw.
Frances Ann Dobson
Christening: 21 FEB 1859 Gateshead, Durham
Father: John Dobson
Mother: Elizabeth Frances Dobson
The South Shields registration reference maybe based on the date of birth of the child and or the local date of registration, or just the former or just the latter.
1858
Frances Ann DOBSON Register: 23 Entry: 498 District: SS/Jarrow.A
Regards
Valda
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Looks like same address in 1871
1871
6 Pelaw Main, Hedworth Monkton & Jarrow
John DOBSON, head mar 54, Ship carpenter, born Wickham
Elizabeth DOBSON, wife mar 46, born Durham
next page
William DOBSON, son unm 9, Scholar, born Jarrow
Joseph DOBSON, son unm 7, Scholar, born ditto
Frances DOBSON, dau unm 11, born ditto
RG10/5044/94/9
Ian C
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Thankyou Valda and Ian. I did know that births were often registered in different quarters, and should have picked that up. I had similar problems with my mother and grandmother.
It is interesting that a different birth place is given for John Dobson on the two census returns, and Mary does not appear on the 1871 return. But it certainly looks like the same family. Whickham (not Wickham) is probably the right birth place. From what I can see on the net Dunston/Whickham/Gateshead are all in the same general area.
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other threads on this William Greaves
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,266390.0.html
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,264397.0.html
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,320595.0.html
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It looks like Sarah Budgen was born 1796 as Sarah Pomphrey in Newick (or Chailey) the daughter of John and Mary Pomfrey. In 1823 she married William Harland and they had a daughter Jane b 1824 at Newick. In 1832 Sarah married James Budgen and they had two children – Christiana b 1834 and James b 1836. Jane Harland assumed the name Jane Budgen for the 1851 Census.
I have sent to the GRO for birth certificate for a male Budgen born 1851 in East Grinstead (maybe this is the one I am after) and the death certificate of Christiana Greves. These will probably take a couple of weeks to get here. It will be interesting to see if they shed any light on the matter.
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Births Dec 1851 Budgen Male E Grinstead 7 409
Deaths Dec 1851
Budgen Male E Grinstead 7 294
East Grinstead covers the districts of Crawley, East Grinstead, Forest Row, Hartfield, Lingfield, West Hoathly, Withyham, Worth
Not the Brighton area or Newick areas.
Regards
Valda
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I am a bit lost with this one as there are so many threads. Has anyone found William and Christina in 1851? Both servants in the same household in Brighton.
HO107 1646 132 20 Christina Budgen age 19 b Newick and William Greaves age 18 b Middlesex London.
Andrea
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Yes, see 10th August post on this thread and then MalGordon's summary on 11th August.
Regards
Valda
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Should have known you would find it Valda! As they were both in Brighton could the baby have been born there perhaps?
Andrea
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Thank you Valda. I have found that death entry now. Looks like another theory gone west. It was just a clutching at straws, but in the overall context it seemed a highly possible solution. I think you are probably right, if these are the parents, that the birth could have taken place in either Brighton or Lewes. I still have that death certificate coming so will wait and see what that brings.
Cheers
Malcolm
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Even if there was a birth certificate, I doubt other than a date of birth, it would give you anymore information than you already hold from the 1851 census entry.
What you might find is a baptism entry. I would first check Newick parish registers for that possibility searching in either surname.
Regards
Valda
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Hi Valda,
I have tried IGI, Batch Numbers, Sussex Weald, Sussex Family History Society, all to no avail. I have tried to find a member searching for this family on Genes Reunited, again with no success. Can you suggest any other sites that I may be able to search? The Budgen connection is tenuous at the very least and contains a lot of supposition.
Cheers,
Malcolm.
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I wouldn't say the 1861 census entry is tenuous or contains supposition
RG9 585 folio 125
Snells Newick Sussex
Sarah Budgen Head Widow 64 Charwoman Fletching Sussex
William Greaves Grandson 8 Scholar Brighton Sussex
If the information is correct then this William Greaves (of the right age and birthplace for your William Greaves) is Sarah Budgen's grandson.
Newick parish registers are not covered by the IGI or the BVRI.
I can't see that the Sussex Weald website holds any Newick parish registers either.
I'm not sure what the coverage of the Sussex FHS baptism index is for Newick. It seems to indicate it has entries in the 1850s
http://www.sfhg.org.uk/baptismsN.html
Since you have checked with the Sussex FHS does this mean they have full coverage of Newick baptisms for the 1850s but neither a William Greaves or a William Budgen baptism is there? Because if they do have full coverage and he is not there then obviously it is not useful persuing Newick further and perhaps Brighton parishes need to be looked at next.
Have you got from the Sussex FHS the baptism entries for all of Sarah Budgen's children both as Harland and Budgen in Newick?
If you have, then you have proved that Christiana Budgen is Sarah's daughter?
The 1851 census then gives you
1851 census HO107 1646 folio 132
75 West Street Brighton Sussex
Thomas Bryer 46 Head Married Cabinet maker Somerset
Mary Bryer 50 Wife Married Croydon Surrey
Christina Budgen 19 House servant Newick Sussex
William Greaves 18 (S?:L) Porter London Middlesex
Greaves is an exceedingly rare surname in Sussex. There were 10 Greaves in the whole of Sussex in 1851, nearly all of them in New Shoreham.
Then you have the likely death in Newick of Sarah's daughter Christiana using the surname Greaves. If the death is in Newick and of a woman of the correct age and even better the death is registered by Sarah (though deaths this earlier are often registered by any local woman who was experienced in nursing her neighbours) then you surely have a very strong connection.
Deaths Dec 1853
Greves Christiana Lewes 2b 81
On the 1851 census there were 104 girls in Sussex with a first name of Christian* ages ranging of course, from 80 to 1.
Supposition's dictionary definition is 'assumption, belief without proof, conjecture'.
On Rootschat I endlessly bang on about family history research should bann the words assumption, presumption and supposition, but in this case you have several pieces of evidence, two census entries (three if you include the 1841 census entry in Newick where Christian Budgen is present in Sarah's household) Christiana Budgen's baptism in Newick? and potentially her death registration as Christiana Greves (sic) in Newick. Placed against the rareness of the Greaves surname in Sussex and the relatively rareness of the name Christiana (Budgen is a little more common at least 75 in 1851 but still a relatively unusual surname) and you place the evidence you have so far in a context. That to me doesn't seem like it is fulfilling the dictionary definition of supposition or that the evidence is tenuous. It isn't as conclusive as you would like with a birth certificate (and the information on them is not always correct), but then there is no evidence that the birth was registered.
If you want to check with the two local registration offices in case the entry has not made it into the GRO index they are Brighton
http://www.brighton-hove.gov.uk/index.cfm?request=b1113986
or Lewes for Newick
The Register Office, Southover Grange, Southover Road, Lewes, BN7 1TP.
Tel: 01273 475589. Fax: 01273 488073.
E-mail: lewes.registrar@eastsussex.gov.uk
If there is no birth certificate then the only final evidence of birth can come from a baptism, but neither would/will give you further information on William's father. The information on him from the 1851 census, is more then you would be likely to get from either of those two sources.
Lack of birth registration was not punishable by a fine until 1875. The most likely births to not be registered would be those that were illegitimate births which took place in towns and cities and where the mother may have moved shortly afterwards, the birth not being picked up by either registrar in two adjacent districts, since the onus was on them to try to track down births to oversee their registration.
It will be interesting to see what Christiana died of, because if she is Sarah's daughter (and there is no evidence of her on later censuses) then she died very young.
Regards
Valda
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A very succinct précis Valda. The familyhistoryonline.net site has the baptism for Christian Budgen 30/07/1837 dau of James and Sarah, labourer Newick St Mary age 5 years. Could not find a William - either Budgen or Greaves though.
Andrea
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Thanks Valda,
I think it best to wait now until I have the copy of death certificate for Christiana. Should be here in a week or so.
However another one from left field. There was a birth in East Grinstead in December quarter 1852 of a William with no surname. Volume 2b, page 113. I looked for a death of a William with no surname but could not find one.
Cheers,
Malcolm.
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Sillgen has now given you the proof that Christian was the daughter of Sarah and James and that the family were a bit lax in getting their children baptised, so baptisms may lag sometime behind births for this family, even more so perhaps if the child was illegitimate.
East Grinstead registration borders with the county of Surrey in North Sussex, so as far from Brighton on the south coast and Newick (inland from Brighton, past Lewes), as you can get in Sussex (which is more of a wide county than a vertically long county admittedly).
I don't really see your particular interest in East Grinstead registration district. There are other Sussex registration districts which would be nearer e.g. Uckfield, well quite a few others really and with East Grinstead you are bordering here with Kent so a couple of Kent registration districts may be just as near as East Grinstead.
http://www.ukbmd.org.uk/genuki/reg/ssx.htm
Have a look at Google maps and Brighton and pan out to Newick and compare against the registration districts.
http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4HPEA_en-GBGB236GB236&tab=wl
The family doesn't seem to have any connection with any places in East Grinstead registration district. Fletching registers in Uckfield registration district (but where Sarah was born in the C18th, she seems to have been in Newick from at least the early 1820s). As yet Fletching, Newick and Brighton seem the only Sussex places in the mix. Fletching is about 2 miles away from Newick. Newick is about 18 miles north of Brighton, but Brighton is only there as a town attracting single girls to work in as servants, otherwise the Budgen family seems well established in Newick.
William consistently gives his birthplace as Brighton. Either Christian gave birth to her illegitimate son in Brighton where such a birth would be anonymous and then returned home to Newick, or she may have returned home to Newick for the birth, there doesn't seem any reason for her to travel to another anonymous place to give birth. Births should be registered in the district they occur in. You can't register in another district unless you lie about where the birth took place.
If the death registration is hers then she had certainly returned to Newick or the Newick area by no later than the December quarter of 1853. If a baptism took place near the time of the birth or some time later you would expect it to either be in a Brighton church or Newick. That would be where you would logically check first.
However it is your money so if you wish to keep ploughing through East Grinstead births it is up to you. However, if you do wish to put some money towards tracking down a baptism for William, employing a Sussex researcher to check for baptisms in Brighton or Newick would probably work out just as cheaply and might be more fruitful. And/or check with the two local registrars to see if they indeed hold a birth registration. Brighton is the easiest to check with by email and the more likely registrar to hold the birth, if such a birth was registered in either the surnames Greaves/Greves or Budgen.
The William birth registered in East Grinstead that you cite, doesn't necessarily not have a surname, it is just the transcriber on FreeBMD was unable to decipher it from the handwritten GRO index and therefore has put an asterisk instead to indicate that. Without knowing his surname it is impossible to know whether there was a subsequent death registration for him.
Regards
Valda
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I now have that copy of the death certificate for Christiana Greves, female age 22years, who died on October 27, 1853, in Newick.
On it she is shown as the wife of William Greves (Groom). The cause of death is shown as phthisis:
Definition of Phthisis
Phthisis: A good trivia or crossword item. An over-consonanted Greek word meaning "a dwindling or wasting away." Pronounced TIE-sis.
Phthisis is an archaic name for tuberculosis. A person afflicted with tuberculosis in the old days was destined to dwindle and waste away like Mimi, the heroine of Puccini's 1896 opera "La Bohème."
The informant is shown as Sarah Budgen present at the death.
I think that all the little bits and pieces have now been, if not proven, well and truly fitted together, and I have little doubt now that Christiana was indeed my G G Grandmother.
Unfortunately this still leaves the marriage record (if indeed there was one) and birth record of the son William somewhat clouded, but another piece is set solidly in the jig saw. The search is not over but at least one chapter has closed.
Thank you all for your kindness and assistance in this matter. It certainly helps to know that such an abundance of help is so readily available.
Cheers from Australia,
Malcolm. :)