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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: Treelover on Friday 08 August 08 10:52 BST (UK)
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Hi,
I’m not sure if there are any census records for 1841 and 1851 for Australia. If so, could someone please check and see if they can find JOHN SPILSBURY (or PILSBURY) born 1817 in Staffordshire, England. He was on the convict ship the Eden which sailed to New South Wales in 1840. He had been charged with Burglary.
He did have a wife Elizabeth, but she seems to vanish into thin air after giving birth to her son in Stafford Gaol in 1840.
John was a shoemaker. Any information would be most appreciated.
Thanks
Joan
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Not sure on the existence of censuses, I think they destroy them
You can check http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au for his death - there are some John Spilsbury's and the index gives the parents name so you should be able to find him
Bob
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This might give you something to be going on with:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/040u/
Don't know how complete it is.
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Hi Bob & Ruskie,
Thank you for your help. I'll search the information you have found for me.
Much obliged
Joan :)
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Hi Joan
Some information on your John Spilsbury from Ancestry
Ship Eden arrived from England 10 November 1840, 270 male convicts on board
Master: H J Naylor
Surgeon, Superintendent: George Forman
JOHN SPILSBURY
Age: 23
Read: yes
Write: no
Religion: Protestant
Married with 1 male child
Native Place: Staffordshire
Trade or Calling: Shoemaker
Offence: Burglary
Where Tried: Stafford Assizes
When Tried: 10 March 1840
Indent No: 198
Sentence: Life
Former Conviction: 6 months
Height: 5ft 9 1/2 ins
Complexion: Ruddy & Freckled
Hair: Brown
Eyes: Grey
Remarks: Eyebrows partially meeting, slight scar on left jaw, mark of a scald on centre of breast, mole inside upper left arm, scar on back of thumb and fore finger of left hand, scar on cap of left knee.
Cazay
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Hi Cazay,
Thank you. I already have that information ;D. My hubby descends from his son who was brought up by his grandparents. John's wife Elizabeth gave birth to another baby boy whilst in Stafford Goal, sadly that child only lived one day. Was hoping there may be information about John once he landed in New South Wales, but sadly I cannot seem to find anything. I looked at the death records but I can't tie him up there either. Unless of course he changed his name.
Don't know what happened to his wife. Seems to vanish off the face of the earth. Unless she was sent out on a later ship?
Thanks
Joan
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Do you know when John Spilsbury obtained his freedom?
It is possible that he may have returned to England or ended up in another Australian state.
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Hi
He was sentenced for life. So I doubt he would have ever returned to England.
Joan
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The NSW State Records have no listing for your John Spilsbury but you will notice under Pardons that convicts who got a life sentence were generally granted Pardons. Either a complete pardon or conditional pardon.
www.records.nsw.gov.au
The index only covers up till 1847 so he was probably not granted his freedom until after this time. There doesn't seem to be any record of a Ticket of Leave (Aus Genealogists website) either.
The Colonial Secretary's information is available on fiche for the later years so I will have a look at them next week if I get to the library, hoping to anyway.
Many convicts, including Lifer's became land owners and prospered in business and raised families, becoming prominent, respected members of the community.
Hope something can be found on John Spilsbury's life in Australia for you.
Cazay
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Hi Cazay,
That is a most generous offer. Thank you so much.
Joan :)
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Hi Joan :)
Today at the library I searched the Convict Deaths and found nothing for John Spilsbury.
Also, searched Ticket of Leave/Pardons 1810-1875 without result.
Found this, although no guarantee that it is your John Spilsbury
Colonial Secretary's Correspondence 1832-1842
John Spilsbury (Windsor), page 287, Shelf 4/3683, Reel 1050.......there was nothing for the later years.
Most of the other names had ship and year but this entry only had Windsor, which is probably the area where he was.
I can only suggest that you get in touch with NSW State Records giving them all the relevant information you hold for John Spilsbury and see if they hold any further information for him. They may suggest that you employ a researcher so the NSW bdm website has a link to the transcription agents who can arrange this. You could probably ask for a quote.
The ship Eden lists how many convicts embarked and arrived in Australia. There was one that didn't make it so I hope it wasn't John Spilsbury.
Not much help but there must be something to be found somewhere.
Cazay
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HI Cazay,
Never mind, thank you once again for your time and trouble.
Joan
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Now John Spilsbury died at Wellington NSW in 1878, purported aged 90. So very likely to have been a convict.
This John Spilsbury was supposedly the father of Henry Spilsbury, who married Martha and had a number of children and lived at Wellington NSW, and also of John Spilsbury who married Catherine McDonald and lived at Hartley NSW, and also of Margaret Spilsbury who married Charles Lee and lived at Windsor NSW and died at Mudgee NSW.
And this John Spilsbury who died in 1878, I think was a convict, a long time before 1840. Particularly as he appears to have married a woman called Eliza Stafford in Sydney in 1831, and she was probably his second wife, as his children would appear to have been born before that.
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Hi Kennett,
Would you let us know please the sources for the information you are posting for Treelover.
I do note, by the way, there are some public trees on Ancestry which include men of the name JOHN SPILSBURY.
However, I do not see BMD certificates scanned and attached there. This lack of documented support always opens questions and doubts about the accuracy of family trees.
Sue
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Now John Spilsbury died at Wellington NSW in 1878, purported aged 90. So very likely to have been a convict.
The above John is way to old. He would have been born around 1788.
There are 4 deaths for John Spilsbury's in NSW alone up to 1920 and that doesnt include any alterations to the spelling of the last name.
10205/1878 SPILSBURY JOHN AGE 90 YEARS DIED WELLINGTON WELLINGTON
9768/1884 SPILSBURY JOHN H HENRY LOUISA MOREE
2463/1865 SPILSBURY JOHN D HENRY MARTHA BOURKE
7284/1873 SPILSBURY JOHN JOHN MARTHA WELLINGTON
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The John H Spilsbury who died at Moree in 1884, parents Henry Spilsbury and Louisa nee Gough, was four years old, and ( if he had lived longer ), he would have been my great-aunt's brother-in-law. He was one of their 13 or 14 children.
John D Spilsbury, who died in 1865, was an infant, and the son of Henry and Martha Spilsbury, one of eight of their children. I believe they had more than eight children, as the first was born the year after their marriage, and the next registered child was not until about 8 years later. In my long experience, registration in that region and era was eratic.
John Spilsbury who died at Wellington in 1873 was the husband of Catherine or Kathleen McDonald, and also the son of John Spilsbury and a different Martha Spilsbury. He was outlived by his father, the alleged 90-year-old who died at the same place in 1878. The Alexander Spilsbury who died at Brisbane in 1841 was a son of this John and Catherine Spilsbury.
The origin of my great-aunt's father-in-law, Henry Spilsbury (1853-1840) of Moree and Windsor is obscure. Because of this, I have made some study of ALL of the Spilsbury's in NSW and Queensland prior to World War 2. There appear to be only three families of them. The family of James and Harriet Spilsbury, arrived 1834, and their descendants, many of whom were in the newspaper business. The family of Richard and Susannah Spilsbury, arrived in 1856. And the family of John Spilsbury, supposedly born about 1788. It is my opinion that Margaret Spilsbury, who married Charles Lee at Windsor in 1840, and John Spilsbury, who married Catherine McDonald at Mudgee in 1847, and Henry Spilsbury, who married Martha Ferguson at Wellington in 1853, are all the children of this alleged John Spilsbury born about 1788. After reaching this conclusion, I came across a purported tree on the internet posted by someone who had reached the same conclusion and also found another child of this John Spilsbury.
Most of these people are not even indirectly related to me. I have investigated them to the extent necessary to verify whether Henry Spilsbury (1853-1940), who IS indirectly related to me, could plausibly be related to them. The answer to this is, no, he isn't, so we still don't know exactly where Henry came from.
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The above John is way to old. He would have been born around 1788.
How is a person who ( according to the age claimed when they died ) was born around 1788, "too old" to have been a convict to New South Wales ?
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Famous name Spilsbury, Prof Spilsbury was a pioneer in Post Mortem Examination in England, late 1800's?
I think he dealt with the Ripper Victims.
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However, I do not see BMD certificates scanned and attached there. This lack of documented support always opens questions and doubts about the accuracy of family trees.
Indeed it does. There is a lot of utter garbage being posted on the Internet, and the problem is getting worse, not better. The current wank for posting illegible scans of certificates on trees, is unfortunately no assurance that the family tree is not garbage. These days I find trove to be often more informative than certificates. Even where certificates exist, people are often making assumptions that person X born in year Y is the same person X who married or died later. There is always a degree of probability involved.
As I pointed out, I am related to some of those Spilsburys, and I am quite certain about what I say about the ones I am connected to. I am not related to others, and that is why I use expressions like "may have" and "appears to be" when referring to them. The OP has referred to her "brick walls" and I have made a suggestion of something which, in my opinion, it might be constructive for her to look into.
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Famous name Spilsbury, Prof Spilsbury was a pioneer in Post Mortem Examination in England, late 1800's?
I think he dealt with the Ripper Victims.
Indeed, he did. There is no apparent link to any of the Australian Spilsburys, though. In fact that professor is a nuisance as you have to trawl through millions of references to him on Trove, to find anything else.
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The above John is way to old. He would have been born around 1788.
How is a person who ( according to the age claimed when they died ) was born around 1788, "too old" to have been a convict to New South Wales ?
Indeed many 'criminals' in their 60's and 70's were transported to the 'Colonies.'
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However, I do not see BMD certificates scanned and attached there. This lack of documented support always opens questions and doubts about the accuracy of family trees.
Indeed it does. There is a lot of utter garbage being posted on the Internet, and the problem is getting worse, not better. The current wank for posting illegible scans of certificates on trees, is unfortunately no assurance that the family tree is not garbage. These days I find trove to be often more informative than certificates. Even where certificates exist, people are often making assumptions that person X born in year Y is the same person X who married or died later. There is always a degree of probability involved.
As I pointed out, I am related to some of those Spilsburys, and I am quite certain about what I say about the ones I am connected to. I am not related to others, and that is why I use expressions like "may have" and "appears to be" when referring to them. The OP has referred to her "brick walls" and I have made a suggestion of something which, in my opinion, it might be constructive for her to look into.
Ah, well that's a good thing. :)
Sue
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The above John is way to old. He would have been born around 1788.
How is a person who ( according to the age claimed when they died ) was born around 1788, "too old" to have been a convict to New South Wales ?
I didnt say he was to old to be a convict. He was to old to be the John that the original poster was querying about. Her John was born in 1817.
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He is indeed too old to be the one born in 1817, and sent to Australia in 1840 aged 23.
There is at least one other John Spilsbury in Australia before 1840, his marriage is recorded in 1831, and the failure of his marriage is evidenced by the newspaper ads he placed in 1832 stating that his wife had absconded for no reason, and that nobody should give her credit. And he was illiterate, so quite possibly a convict. The list of convicts is not complete.
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He is indeed too old to be the one born in 1817, and sent to Australia in 1840 aged 23.
There is at least one other John Spilsbury in Australia before 1840, his marriage is recorded in 1831, and the failure of his marriage is evidenced by the newspaper ads he placed in 1832 stating that his wife had absconded for no reason, and that nobody should give her credit. And he was illiterate, so quite possibly a convict. The list of convicts is not complete.
You seem to assume a connection between illiteracy and criminal activity leading to transportation That is a bit surprising.
Can you elaborate on this?
Sue
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Your capacity to presume or confect the existence of presumptions by other people is extraordinary !
I am not assuming a link between illiteracy and criminality, at all.
Let me spell it out for you.
The "lower class" ( for want of a better term, lest you start making presumptions about assumptions again ), were not much in the habit of placing ads and announcements in the newspapers. You will observe, in the newspapers of the day, many advertisements, announcements and random pieces of information about the gentry, the merchants, the officials, the professionals, the graziers and the trades.
You will see next to no information about the small-holders, labourers, and others. Many of these were former convicts, many were not. And among the former convicts, many had no track record of criminal misconduct in Australia.
In that period, the gentry, merchants, officials, graziers and tradesmen were generally literate, and many of the smallholders, labourers, workers and ex-convicts were not.
I see it as somewhat unusual, to have an advertisement placed in the newspaper, as John Spilsbury's advertisement concerning his absconded wife, which specifically draws attention to his illiteracy, particularly as there seems to be no obvious reason why it would be mentioned at all. I have read thousands and thousands and thousands of pages of these newspapers, and that still strikes me as somewhat odd. The point being, that being illiterate is not inconsistent with being a former convict. The use of the double negative in the preceding sentence is intentional and has semantic meaning. This should not be taken to mean an assumption is implied that illiteracy implies criminality, or that criminality implies illiteracy, or the literacy implies an absence of criminality. In fact, to say that A is not inconsistent with B, is to specifically deny making any of those assumptions.
Nevertheless, the fact that the ad specifically draws attention to John Spilsbury's illiterate state, highlights the unusualness of his ad, because most such ads were placed by middle class rather than lower class people.
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so we still don't know exactly where Henry came from.
Have you obtained his marriage cert? It might have info on it that would help.
Also a point to remember is when searching newspapers that the family notices can have errors just the same as cert. can. Newspaper articles and certs. both depend on how good the informants information is. I wouldnt just rely on Trove.
Also from what i have found your Henry parents were Henry Spilbury and Margaret D'Arcy and Henry was a jeweller. Have you checked out any Spilbury's who were jewellers?
I found the below link,, might be worth checking out to see if there is any connnection ::)
Dated 1826
Mr Spilbury, jeweller, of Poland street, Oxford street etc etc
http://books.google.com.au/books?id=2Nk7AQAAMAAJ&pg=RA1-PA139&lpg=RA1-PA139&dq=Spilsbury+jeweller+poland+street&source
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Your capacity to presume or confect the existence of presumptions by other people is extraordinary !
I am not assuming a link between illiteracy and criminality, at all.
Let me spell it out for you.
The "lower class" ( for want of a better term, lest you start making presumptions about assumptions again ), were not much in the habit of placing ads and announcements in the newspapers. You will observe, in the newspapers of the day, many advertisements, announcements and random pieces of information about the gentry, the merchants, the officials, the professionals, the graziers and the trades.
You will see next to no information about the small-holders, labourers, and others. Many of these were former convicts, many were not. And among the former convicts, many had no track record of criminal misconduct in Australia.
In that period, the gentry, merchants, officials, graziers and tradesmen were generally literate, and many of the smallholders, labourers, workers and ex-convicts were not.
I see it as somewhat unusual, to have an advertisement placed in the newspaper, as John Spilsbury's advertisement concerning his absconded wife, which specifically draws attention to his illiteracy, particularly as there seems to be no obvious reason why it would be mentioned at all. I have read thousands and thousands and thousands of pages of these newspapers, and that still strikes me as somewhat odd. The point being, that being illiterate is not inconsistent with being a former convict. The use of the double negative in the preceding sentence is intentional and has semantic meaning. This should not be taken to mean an assumption is implied that illiteracy implies criminality, or that criminality implies illiteracy, or the literacy implies an absence of criminality. In fact, to say that A is not inconsistent with B, is to specifically deny making any of those assumptions.
Nevertheless, the fact that the ad specifically draws attention to John Spilsbury's illiterate state, highlights the unusualness of his ad, because most such ads were placed by middle class rather than lower class people.
He is indeed too old to be the one born in 1817, and sent to Australia in 1840 aged 23.
There is at least one other John Spilsbury in Australia before 1840, his marriage is recorded in 1831, and the failure of his marriage is evidenced by the newspaper ads he placed in 1832 stating that his wife had absconded for no reason, and that nobody should give her credit. And he was illiterate, so quite possibly a convict. The list of convicts is not complete.
You seem to assume a connection between illiteracy and criminal activity leading to transportation That is a bit surprising.
Can you elaborate on this?
Sue
Thanks for elaborating and making your theories so clear :)
Sue
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Re LITERACY
Here’s some information from Dec 1827 to show that a John Spilsbury CAME FREE
Windsor …….. John Spilsbury, came free to be Constable from the 6th instant, in the Room of James Union
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/31759277 The Monitor 17 Dec 1827
And then : Here’s the notice in the newspaper, whereby a John Spilsbury of Windsor inserts advert re his wife, and the advert includes a witness name to certify John’s x mark.
May I note that IF these two articles are referring to the same John Spilsbury, then the Constable would seem to be simply crossing all the “t” and dotting all the “i” as one would expect of anyone with experience of policing the laws. .
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/2204414 The Sydney Gazette 12 January 1832.
Re X Marks on Trove's digitised newspapers
I recall various adverts with his or her X mark mentioned in those newspapers. I also recall reading X mark mentions in the earlier versions of historic newspapers .... at the following link : http://www.nla.gov.au/ferg/
ADD, and of course, the references to Windsor, are to Windsor, NSW, .... The Hawkesbury District :D and of course, it is quite possible that there were two different chaps with families in the Hawkesbury District at the same time named John SPILSBURY.
Cheers, JM
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Hi,
I’m not sure if there are any census records for 1841 and 1851 for Australia. If so, could someone please check and see if they can find JOHN SPILSBURY (or PILSBURY) born 1817 in Staffordshire, England. He was on the convict ship the Eden which sailed to New South Wales in 1840. He had been charged with Burglary.
He did have a wife Elizabeth, but she seems to vanish into thin air after giving birth to her son in Stafford Gaol in 1840.
John was a shoemaker. Any information would be most appreciated.
Thanks
Joan
Hi Joan,
Some historic electoral roll info :) from 1870 may help to confirm or eliminate.
NSW 1870 Electoral Roll THE BOGAN
In the Bourke Police District
Henry SPILLSBERRY, of Willie, leasehold Marra Creek
John SPILLSBERRY, of Willie, residence Marra Creek
Cheers, JM
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Source: BDA (Biographical Database of Australia) http://www.bda-online.org.au/
Oct 1831 John SPILSBURY, aged 38, of Windsor Signed X; & Eliza Stafford, AGED 17 Spinster, of Wilberforce, Signed X. married 18 Oct 1831, registered Scots Church Presbyterian, Sydney by Banns, with consent of all parties, by John McGARVIE. Witness John Chave and Ann Chave of Sydney. The BDA source cited as Church Register, NSW Sydney Scots Church Presbyterian Marriages.
http://www.insidehistory.com.au/2013/09/biographical-dictionary-of-australia-set-to-launch-a-unique-window-into-colonial-australia/
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XTZD-P49 marriage Eliza Stafford 18 Oct 1831
NSW BDM online ref Vol 73A line 206, John Spilsbury and Eliza Stafford at JA (Sydney, Scots Church)
Cheers, JM
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Source: BDA (Biographical Database of Australia) http://www.bda-online.org.au/
BIRTH Nov 1825
Henry SPILSBOROUGH, child of John Spilsborough, Private 3rd Regiment, and of Martha,
Abode Windsor
Born 28 Nov 1825, baptised 8 Jan 1826, Windsor, by Rev John Cross, St Matthews, C of E, Windsor.
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XTCX-53J
BIRTH Dec 1823
Margaret SPILSBOROUGH, (same parents a Henry, above), baptised 25 Dec 1823 at Windsor, same church, same Rev.
ADD
There's a John SPILSBURY, 3rd Regiment of Foot who arrived in NSW 1822. He is listed at the following link as among those who stayed. May I also note that he, his wife Martha and their children are listed on the NSW 1828 Census CD as being located at Windsor, and that John, aged 34 was a Constable. They arrived on the P Royal, 1822, and were Protestant.
Among their younger children noted on that CD are Henry born in the colony and Margaret born in the colony.
http://freepages.history.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~garter1/3rdfoot.htm
Remembering that the OP's chap "was on the convict ship the Eden which sailed to New South Wales in 1840." (Was this the last ship to fetch prisoners to New South Wales ?)
http://www.convictrecords.com.au/convicts/spilsbury/john/960
Cheers, JM