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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: Timbottawa on Tuesday 29 July 08 07:05 BST (UK)
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I would welcome any and all ideas on how to proceed with my equivalent of the Berlin Wall (OK, it wasn't strictly a brick wall, but you know what I mean!).
My great grandfather's name was (supposedly) Henry Thomas BUTLER (or possibly Henry John Butler). I have found him on the 1881, 1891 and 1901 censii. He died in 1906. In the three censii on which he appears the ages he gives corespond to birth years of approximately 1842-3, 1844-5, and 1845-6. His death certificate implies a birth year of approximately 1845-6. At least he was consistent in his (supposed) place of birth: Chelsea, London (or sometimes Middlesex).
He should appear in the 1851, 1861, and 1871 censii, but I am unable to locate him on any of these.
One problem is that in about 1870 or 71 he married Margaret McHale (sometimes MacHale or McHall or Machall). But there is no marriage certificate. Without this I do not know his parents' names, which makes it virtually impossible to locate him in the 1851 and 1861 censii.
The 1871 census is interesting. Margaret has left her parent's pub, the Duke of Ormond, in Princes St. Westminster and appears in the census living alone on census night in a boarding house at 10 Gloucester St., Finsbury. Intriguingly, she records herself as Margaret Butler, married. It's hugely circumstantial, I know, but why would she record her name as Butler and her marital status as married if she had recently started living in sin with her boyfriend in an area where they were not known, and where I suspect many such examples existed. This makes me think that they really were married, but where is the certificate? Margaret was almost certainly Catholic, Henry almost certainly not - I don't know if this would be significant.
But where was Henry in 1871? As an actor, he could have been anywhere in the country, though most likely somewhere in the southeast. But I've researched all Henry Butlers, and tried obvious mis-transcriptions like Buller and Butter, with no success!
I have downloaded all births of Henry Butler in the 1842-46 period, and even ordered certificates of the most likely candidates based on place of birth. The trouble is, without knowing his parents' names, I cannot know if any birth certificate is the right one or not. As Henry & Margaret's second son, born 1874, was named Hubert, after Margaret's father (their first was Henry), I was hoping that I might come across a birth certificate for Henry in which the parents' names were Edith (their oldest daughter's name) or Reginald (their third son), but no luck!
Margaret McHale is an unusual name, of course. Interestingly, there is a marriage of a Margaret McKale in Chelsea (!) in the 4th Q of 1867. Perhaps a year or two too early, but maybe not - she would have been 19 at the time. The groom's name is George Turney. Could Henry have been using an assumed name, for some reason? Or is Henry Butler an assumed (stage) name and George Turney his real name? Or is this all just a coincidence? Mysteries! None of the George Turneys in the 1871 census are married to a Margaret (or Maggie or Peggy).
This has stymied me for 7 years so far. Any thoughts most welcome!
Thanks
Tim
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If he was an actor would Butler be his real name?
Seem to remember reading somewhere that the actor Michael Caine when he was knighted was knighted under his real name (Micklewaite?)
Not sure how he puts his name on census records.
Jean
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Tim - I can't see an actor in the census who fits thoses details - did he change occupation and become an artist?
or am I looking at the wrong man?
DebbieG
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Hi Debbie,
Which census are to trying to find him in? He variously recorded himself as actor, artist, comedian, etc. A second cousin still has a coplue of paintings by him.
In 1881 he was in Hull, and an "artist pictures". In 1891he was in Castleford and an "actor"; in 1901 he was in Scarborough, and an "artist".
Jean ... no, I have no way of knowing if Butler was his real name or a stage name, but all the children were registered as Butler.
Cheers
Tim
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Here are Henry's details on all the documents I have ...
Event Year Profession Location
1st son birth cert. 1871 Performer St. Geo Hanover Sq
2nd son birth certificate 1874 Actor (Theatrical) Southport
1st dau birth certificate 1876 Actor Scarborough
2nd dau birth certificate 1879 Professional actor Sth Shields
1881 census 1881 Artist pictures Hull
3rd son birth certificate 1881 Comedian Hull
3rd dau birth certificate 1883 Comedian West Derby (Everton)
4th son birth certificate 1884 Comedian West Derby (Everton)
4th son death certificate 1885 Theatrical stage manager Newcastle
4th dau birth certificate 1886 Comedian Newcastle
5th dau birth certificate 1888 Comedian Newcastle
6th dau birth certificate 1890 Comedian Scarborough
1891 census 1891 Actor Castleford
6th dau death certificate 1891 Theatrical mngr Castleford
5th dau death certificate 1891 Theatrical mngr Castleford
2nd son marriage certificate 1896 Actor
1st son marriage certificate 1899 Gentleman
Wife death certificate 1900 Retired licensed victualler Scarborough
1901 census 1901 Artist Scarborough
1902 town directory 1902 Scarborough
1st dau marriage certificate 1906 Artist Leeds
3rd son marriage certificate 1909 Theatrical
Death certificate 1909 Artist (Painter) Hartlepool
3rd dau marriage certificate 1909 Actor
4th dau marriage certificate 1910 Actor
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Just a couple of thoughts.....
Is there any possibility that the woman may have married before, and used her married name on the marriage licence ?
Don't rely too heavily on DOB's or ages from death certificates. The information is often pure guesswork from those who reported the death, and whatever they tell (which is often totally innaccurate) is faithfully recorded.
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Thanks Nick,
I had thought of that. She would have been quite young for a 2nd marriage - she was 23 in 1871 when she appears as "Margaret Butler" in the 1871 census. The obvious possibility is the McKale-Turney marriage in 1867, with the groom dying quickly. But there is no Turney-Butler marriage at the right time, nor a record of a convincing Turney death at the right time. Similarly, no other McHale marriages followed by a Butler marriage that fits this theory (I've invested quite a bit of effort in this!).
Cheers
Tim
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Wow Tim - that is quite a list, it must have taken some time tracking down all those certificates - I had just had a quick look and found him in 1881 and 1901. Sorry about all the questions - but on how many of those certificates is his middle name used? and is it always Thomas?
Debbie
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Hi Debbie,
Yes, I've invested a lot of effort in this!
Henry was almost never consistent in anything! Of those documents that record a middle name, there are 16 Henry Thomas'; 3 Henry James'; 2 Henry Johns and one Henry J. All of the earliest records were Henry Thomas; Henry James first appeared only in 1891, and Henry John in 1900.
I don't know if this tendency to change his middle name is evidence for or against the idea that Henry Butler is a stage name!
Cheers
Tim
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The 1871 census is interesting. Margaret has left her parent's pub, the Duke of Ormond, in Princes St. Westminster and appears in the census living alone on census night in a boarding house at 10 Gloucester St., Finsbury. Intriguingly, she records herself as Margaret Butler, married. It's hugely circumstantial, I know, but why would she record her name as Butler and her marital status as married if she had recently started living in sin with her boyfriend in an area where they were not known, and where I suspect many such examples existed. This makes me think that they really were married, but where is the certificate? Margaret was almost certainly Catholic, Henry almost certainly not - I don't know if this would be significant.
I geuss Maragret was already with child and being catholic and unmarried would not look good so even if she was not married to Henry she could have just said she was.
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Thanks Toni,
Their first son, Henry Thomas Butler, was born on 25 Sept. 1871, so on census night she would have been about 3 months pregnant - not really obviously pregnant. But yes, I't possible she was simply embarrassed and covering up!
Tim
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Hi
Have you searched the 19th Century British Newspapers (under the Gale Group's free trial) for any clues, in particular The Era which catered for the theatrical crowd?
A sister of my gr-grandfather was an actress and I'd had great difficulty finding out what happened to her from the 1880s onwards. In The Era I found 20 years' worth of adverts, reviews, personal notices, etc. for her and her actor husband as they continually traversed the country appearing in plays and music hall dramas from Aberdeen to Dublin to the south of England. She was using her maiden name as her stage name; he always used his stage name (they both are on the 1901 census under his stage name.) For all that, I've still to find their deaths under any name!
There's a thread about the Gale Group free trial here:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,316248.0.html
My free trial has finished, but you may be able to sign up for two weeks.
Good luck!
Koromo :)
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the Rainbow Theatre in Leicester, i think have records at the relevant RO
do you think he preformed there?
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Great Koromo ... thanks for this lead. I had searched in various places, but with little success. Margart apparently went under the stage name of Margaret Tremayne, or possibly Tremain, and was supoosedly an accomplished singer - some family stories even record her as an opera singer who appeared for the D'Oyley Carte (but I checked their web-site, with no record of her, so it's probably a myth).
Henry apparently used to describe himself as "the Original Silver King", apparently in reference to Herny James' well-known play "The Silver King". But the first performance of the play in 1882 featured the famous Wilson Barrett in the title role, so I'm not sure what he was on about!
Cheers
Tim
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Thanks Toni ... Leicester is actualy one part of the country where I have no record of them having spent any time! Tim
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Henry apparently used to describe himself as "the Original Silver King", apparently in reference to Herny James' well-known play "The Silver King". But the first performance of the play in 1882 featured the famous Wilson Barrett in the title role, so I'm not sure what he was on about!
Probably meant he was the Original Silver King for the particular theatrical company he was with at the time! :D
My one was supposedly known as "the Welsh Nightingale" according to family notes, but she is never called that in the couple of hundred references to her which I found in The Era. ::)
Cheers
K.
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Thanks Toni ... Leicester is actualy one part of the country where I have no record of them having spent any time! Tim
typical!
;D
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Hi Koromo,
I got into the Gale database after experiencing some of the problems encountered by others, and it has proven useful! I've established that Margaret Butler's stage name was Bella Tremaine - similar, but not identical to what I had previously understood.
But on Henry the confusion only grows - in some advertisements where her appears alongside Bella, he is descibed as "W.H. Butler"!! At least it seems he did not use a stage name ... or was Butler his stage name????
Cheers
Tim
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"... where HE appears ...", not "her"!
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Hi Tim
I'm so glad that you were able to get into the Gale newspapers and find some more info. :D
The fact that you can't find Henry Butler on censuses before 1881 might indicate that BUTLER was his stage name. But if all his children are BUTLERs then it could be his real name! ::) I can only give the example from my actor family:
Edwin WHITAKER b. 1855 is so named when he is at home with his parents
1881 and 1901 censuses: he is E. W. BRETTON, actor, his stage name
He married 1881 as WHITAKER (confirmed by cert.)
1882: his son was born as WHITAKER who subsequently spent years as a career soldier as BRETTON
Still don't know what name his death is registered — there are no Edwin BRETTONs, but a handful of likely Edwin WHIT(T)AKERs.
Do keep searching the newspapers. It took me quite a while to get the knack of how to search effectively. I found the Basic search form was the easiest, putting Era (without the The) in the publication/newspaper box. Then you might search on Butler AND Tremaine which will bring up pages with both those words — searching on Butler Tremaine will be treated as a phrase.
Regards
Koromo
:)
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Thanks Koromo,
I just think that Butler is a real name ... I've traced more than a dozen lines to living relatives, and while some of them knew of the Tremaine (Tremayne/Tremain) name, none of them have ever questioned the Butler name - and some of them are still named Butler!
There's another minor mystery, in that Margaret's maiden name on some, but not all of the children's birth certificates is given as "Margaret White McHale". She was born simply as Margaret McHale. This made me wonder about an earlier marriage, but there are no credible combinations of a McHale-White marriage followed by a Butler-White marriage. So where does White come from? An earlier stage name, perhaps?
Cheers
Tim
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I was wondering if the White came from her own family - perhaps her mums maiden name or something.
But from 1861 amd 1851 censuses and FreeBMD I have found her mum was Frances, nee Raper, who her dad married in 1843. Frances must have died, as her dad remarried to Louisa Green in 1860. Louisa must have already had child(ren) form a previous marriage/relationship.
I expect you have all this, but if not and want further details just shout.
But it does nothing to indicate where the "White" came from or to help find Mr Butler's origins!
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There's another minor mystery, in that Margaret's maiden name on some, but not all of the children's birth certificates is given as "Margaret White McHale". She was born simply as Margaret McHale. This made me wonder about an earlier marriage, but there are no credible combinations of a McHale-White marriage followed by a Butler-White marriage. So where does White come from? An earlier stage name, perhaps?
Cheers
Tim
Hi Tim,
Have you tried on Scotlands people for Margaret?
The name White added to her name sounds a bit Scottish to me ;D
Carol
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Thanks lizdb
Indeed, her mother was Frances Raper, originally from Thirsk, who met her father, Hubert McHale, when both were servants at an estate near Exeter in about 1840 (they appear together in 1841 as servants). Frances died of TB and Hubert re-married, to Lousia Green, as you note. They had another couple of children. In Hubert's will there was no provision for any of his children with Frances. So no White there!
Carol ... Margaret's father, Hubert, was born in Sussex to a former soldier named Thomas McHale from Crossmolina, Co. Mayo. His mother, Ann, was also Irish. So no Scottish connection as far as I know!
Cheers
Tim
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Reading this thread, I just wondered if there is a connection to (Edwin) Henry Butler who was born Chepstow circa 1818 and was a comedian and theatrical agent, mentioned many times in The Era. He had a son Thomas Henry Sherwin Butler born London 1851 who appears on the 1871 census with his parents as a shipping clerk age 20 and married, but has no spouse with him (he's indexed in Ancestry for 1871 as Florean H Butler). Could Thomas Henry be Henry Thomas? I know the age is slightly out - he's about 5 years too young, but he couild have added a few years to impress Margaret!
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Thanks Shaun, That's an intriguing possibility. Quite a few inconsistencies, but then again this fellow is full of inconsistencies! As mentioned previously his age is particularly elastic. I shall look for Thomas Henry Sherwin in the 1881 census - if he's there, he's not my fellow, who I have in 1881.
Cheers
Tim (off for my morning run now!)
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Shaun ... have you been researching this family? I can't find Thomas Henry in the 1881 census! Cheers
Tim
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No Tim....I was just searching for your Henry Butler, found this other one in a similar line of business, and wondered if there was a son.
There is a birth announcement in The Era 19 January 1851.
11th, the wife of Mr Henry Butler of the Theatre Royal, Drury Lane, of a son, at his residence in Great Queen Street, Lincoln's Inn.
The house in Great Queen Street was the home of his in-laws the Sherwins.
The birth of Thomas Henry Sherwin Butler was registered in St Giles in 1Q 1851.
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Here's someone who is researching that family http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/THEATRE-UK/2006-12/1165608452
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Thanks Shaun, I've emailed the originator of that thread. He's obviously found the family in 1861, but I can't!
You obviously have access to The Era - is this through the Gale Newspapers group, or do you have some other source? My fellow died in 1909, and I thought there might be an obituary in The Era or more likely The Era Almanac and Annual which might provide useful information. I was one of the many whose enrollment in the Gale offer was terminated after only one day, but in any case, they only covered the Victorian period.
Cheers
Tim
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Yes Tim I have online access to the Era via my local library, but only up to 1900 at the moment.
I'll see if I can find them in 1861.
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1861: RG9/167 f 45 p 23
26 Bloomsbury Street
Indexed as Buller
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Wow, Shaun, you are much better at discovering census entries than me, and I've been looking for Butlers for ages - Butter is another common mis-transcription!
I was interested in seeing whether there were any siblings whose names might have been reflected in my fellow's children, but he seems to have been an only child!
It is interesting that they had a French drawing master lodging with them, as my fellow was also an artist. But this is a whole lot of highly circumstantial evidence. I think I really need to locate an obituary! (Which takes us back to how I think you located this thread ... the value of death certificates!)
But thanks ... this is the most convincing family I've come across.
Tim
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Re your hand-me-down story about Margaret and the D'Oyly Carte ...there was a successful opera singer by the name of Annie Tremaine who performed for the D'Oyly Carte and would have been a contemporary...do you think a wire got crossed somewhere along the line? I saw nothing in The Era to connect Bella Tremaine with opera.
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Well, of course it is possible that some wires got crossed ... but there are references to Bella and opera in The Era. For example, an advert in The Era for 16 April 1876 says "Bella Tremaine, Singing Walking Ladies, available for Burlesque or Opera Bouffe".
To be honest, I'm not sure what "burlesque or opera bouffe" is!
So, she sang, she was associated in some way with opera, but there is no record that she sang for the D'Oyly Carte, and she wasn't Annie Tremaine, who was much more famous, and who did!
So I think the assocaition is a family legend, but whether it arose simply from an inflation of a mother/grandmother's career, or from a mix-up with someone with a similar stage name, we can probably never know!
Cheers
Tim
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have you searched The Stage's online archive? https://archive.thestage.co.uk/
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No, I haven't ... and I just tried to sign on to a 24-hour access, but after trying 4 times it hangs up each time! It may be something to do with the weather, it is still the rainy season here in Thailand, and is quite torrential at the moment, which seems to affect performance, so I may try tomorrow.
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Just to update ... I emailed the fellow researching the other Butler family on Rootsweb and already received a reply and a 6-page document, mostly about the father's career. However, he notes that he can't trace Thomas Henry after the 1871 census, while I can't trace Henry Thomas (on census returns) before the 1881 census. There are a couple of other intriguing facts emerging. We are both now analyzing each other's information.
Cheers
Tim
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Sounds promising. The father Edwin Henry Butler died in 1880 I think. I wonder if he left a Will.
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Yes, he died on 14th Sept. 1880, but no will has been located. It sounds strange, I would have thought that someone of that eminence would have written a will.
And although there was a second son, he died in infancy, so Thomas Henry was the only child to reach adulthood.
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Hello,
Is this thread still alive?
I think my father's great-aunt Emma may have had a liaison and at least one child with Henry Thomas Butler, actor.
When I have worked out how this site works, I may be able to post a birth certificate to prove it!
Alan
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Timbottawa was last online in October. He should get a notification to say there has been activity on his thread, as long as he's not changed his email address. Just acknowledge this post once (or maybe twice) and you will then be able to send him a personal message too.
Added - Just make sure your birth cert attachment isn't too big (max is 500KB) and is one of the allowed file types (displayed when you click "Attachments and other options")
PS Hello and welcome!
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Hello and welcome to Rootschat.
Please be aware that you will not be allowed to post the whole of a certificate (copywrite rules) on the Rootschat boards. A small portion showing some relevant info is always allowed though.
Regards
Carol
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Hello Alan,
Yes, the mystery is still as alive as ever! Needless to say, I'm fascinated by your information. As others have mentioned, you cannot post a full certificate here, but you can send it to me via a personal message.
However, if you could just send the information of date of birth, location, and address of mother it would help me to confirm the link, as I have now so much information on Henry Thomas' life.
Thanks so much!
Tim
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Hello again Alan ... also if you can tell me your great-aunt Emma's surname (at birth) it could help. Being an actor, Henry Thomas did spend a fair amount of time away from the family, which would, of course, yield temptations of a liaisonary sort! (Don't think "liaisonary" is a real word :) ). So I wondered if she was also an actress.
I have now researched Henry Thomas in more than 100 of his performances. He performed with an Emma Staunton in Scarborough over Christmas 1878. But in those days the actors/actresses were often listed by initials, so he may have performed with several other Emmas. Then we're back to the stage name issue, of course :)
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1. Have you considered Henry Butler, b. Chelsea, Q4 1837 ?
2. I have encountered exactly this situation with one of my GGF's, and I think that you may well find that HB was married, but not to Margaret McHale.
JMB
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Thanks JMB,
No, I hadn't considered that particular birth. I have a database of 69 possible Henry Butler births for the period 1842-46 alone! My Henry never claimed to be anything like that old - the oldest he ever claimed to be corresponded to a birth year of 1842. And the problem is, if I were to order and receive the certificate, it would tell me nothing that I could say "this is the right one"!
When you say that Henry was married but not to Margaret, do you mean that he was previously married (before 1871), but left his wife to join Margaret? This is, of course, a possibility - but I can't think of any way I could demonstrate this. There are 53 Henry Butler marriages in the period 1865-69. Only one of these is "Henry Thomas Butler" (to Ann Harriet Cansick), but I have that certificate, and Henry is not an actor, or artist, or anything else that my Henry subsequently claimed to be! So it could be him, but I have no way of knowing.
Thanks for your ideas - more are welcome to break down this brick wall :)
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Tomb,
1. There is on the 1851 Census, one Henry Butler, 8 yrs, b. London, son of William/Eleanor; he has an older sister Eleanor, 10 yrs, b. London, Middx. This gives 1843 as year of his birth.
We know that Chelsea is in Middlesex at that time period.
2. There is on the 1861 (Scotland) Census, one Henry Butler, 18 yrs, b. London; occupation is billposter (circus/theatre/vaudeville ??). He has left his family.
JMB
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Dear Tim,
GRO 1st qu. 1872 St Giles 1b 560
Born 29th December at 17 Little Queen Street
Henry William Butler, boy
Son of Henry Thomas Butler (occupation: actor) and Emma Butler, formerly Deighton.
The birth was registered by the boy's mother on 1st March 1872.
Emma Butler can be found in the 1871 census at 32 Tysoe St., Clerkenwell, living with a daughter, Ellen, age 2, born in Liverpool. Emma described herself as a 'professional actress', age 25, born in Blackfriars, Surrey, the head of the family and married.
In 1881 Emma appears at 24 Royal Terrace, Newington, with Ellen, now age 12, still born in Liverpool, and two sons: Henry W., age 9, and Charles E., age 1, born in Newington. Emma is now a dressmaker, age 37, born in Southwark, the head of the family, but now a widow.
By 1891 Emma is living at 72 Avenue Road, Camberwell, with Henry William, age 19, and Charles E., age 11, both born in Newington. Emma is now a mantle cutter, age 47, born in London, Blackfriars Road, the head of the family and still a widow.
Confusingly, Emma appears to have used her 'maiden' name when she had her children baptised: Ellen and Henry William at St Paul's, Walworth, on 22nd August 1873, when their address was 25 (not 24!) Royal Terrace. On this occasion, she is described in the register as a single woman. On 18th June 1884 she had another child baptised: Robert, born 1st June 1884; her address: 11, Carnaby St., and her profession: dressmaker. There is no mention of a father for any of these children.
All of these children, with the exception of Robert, who seems to have made no further appearances in the records, claimed on marriage that their father was Henry or Harry Butler:
Ellen (to Frederick Thomas Hunt, 1890) – Harry Butler, actor.
Henry William (to Margaret Elizabeth Smith, 1894) – Henry Butler, traveller, deceased.
Charles (to Lydia Sarah Kemp, 1901) – Henry William Butler, traveller.
Furthermore, Emma Butler died in 1917, aged 74, in Picton Street, Camberwell. Her death certificate states she was the widow of Henry William Butler, an actor (this information I have from a descendant of hers).
There are discrepancies here, but these are consistent with the children having had no real knowledge of what was probably a father, involved in a profession which at the time was not regarded universally as respectable, who had passed out of their lives while they were still very young.
An added confusion appears in the form of Emma Kate Butler, who married William James Clark at St. Paul's, Newington, on 19th March 1881, claiming to be the daughter of William Henry Butler (no indication of profession). Emma Kate Butler does not appear in any census returns under this name, but her great-granddaughter knows that she was brought up by Emma Butler, formerly Deighton, and this Emma Butler was a witness to her marriage.
Who was Emma Butler, formerly Deighton?
The only Emma Deighton who fits seems to be the daughter of William James Deighton (1798-1852, variously surgeon, apothecary and accoucheur to the parish of Bethnal Green) who was born on 29th January 1843 at 33, George Street (now Dolben Street, off Blackfriars Road) in Southwark. She was my father's great-aunt.
Other factors pointing to this link (in no particular order):
1. Ellen Butler's husband, Frederick Thomas Hunt, was her cousin, the son of Emma's older sister Hannah.
2. Emma Kate Butler claimed her grandfather was a doctor.
3. Emma Kate claimed the entertainer Eugene Stratton was some sort of cousin. This is a fantasy (he was born Eugene Augustus Rühlmann in Buffalo, New York), but Emma Deighton had a sister Ellen who appears to have lived with a William Stratton and borne him three children, Strattons who therefore were indeed Emma Kate's cousins.
4. For what it is worth, in 1849 Emma Deighton's oldest sister, Matilda, married James Lyddon Langabeer, who claimed to be a 'Professor of Dancing' and may have been identical with the Langabeer who played minor parts in plays at the Adelphi theatre in 1843 – another possible acting connection.
Unfortunately, Emma Deighton and Henry Thomas Butler do not appear to have been the marrying type.
So, Tim, were there two actors named Henry Thomas Butler? Or is this 'your' Henry Thomas? Was Emma 'that woman' who the aunts feared might turn up to the funeral in 1909? She was a 66 year old woman by then who appears to have earned her living as a mantle machinist at home. Somehow I suspect that even if she had learned of his death she wouldn't have been able to afford the trip north. So perhaps there was yet another woman!
Alan
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Fascinating stuff, Alan :)
Was Emma Kate "Butler" the Emma Kate Deighton whose birth was registered Sep qtr 1862 Newington? It's consistent with her age at marriage (18 in March 1881).
Was your Emma Deighton/ Butler b 1843 the one enumerated in 1851 as a niece of Henry & Almira Chapman? If so then I think young Emma aged 8 and a George (5), both as DIGHTON, are with Almira in Newington in 1871: HO107/1565/363/2.
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My Butler family informant is pretty certain that Emma Kate "Butler" is indeed Emma Kate Deighton born in Newington in August 1862. However, her parents are recorded as George Deighton and Emma Deighton, formerly Smith. George is a commercial clerk. Emma registered the birth. On 21st August 1866 they had her baptised at St Paul's, Newington, together with a son George Andrew. They were living at 33 Hill Street.
These children are probably related to "my" and Emma Butler's Deightons because in the 1871 census they are living (spelt Dighton) with Almira Chapman at 182 Hill Street. Over the years Almira had housed various other Deightons on census nights, including Emma's sisters Ellen and Catherine. The Chapmans and the Deightons appear to have been neighbours in George Street when the latter first moved there from Bethnal Green.
If George Deighton snr. really existed he would have to be Emma Butler's cousin at the closest, but I know nothing about Emma's father's siblings. I would like to assume that George Deighton and the surname Smith were figments of Emma Butler's imagination designed to make her look respectable, but that is a baseless assumption that has no place in genealogical research!
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Hi Alan,
Thanks so much for that extremely comprehensive summary of Emma Butler, nee Deighton. Fascinating!
It looks for all the world that the father of Henry William was my Henry. And, intriguingly, if the birth was more or less at term, then conception was quite close to census night 1871, when my Henry was missing from his newly pregnant "wife". What a lovely soap opera that could be!
So, could there have been two Henry Thomas Butlers (actors) busy getting young ladies pregnant in London at the time? There was almost certainly Thomas Henry (Sherwin) Butler in London (see this thread in September 2008). He was 20 years old at the time and a possible candidate. But then again, one hypothesis I have is that Thomas Henry Butler (actor) and Henry Thomas Butler (actor) are one and the same person!
I think the case is compelling that my Henry was being very naughty, having recently got Margaret pregnant, having a bit of a fling with another actress.
But is Emma "that woman", whose possible plans to turn up at Henry's funeral in 1909 caused my grandmother and great-aunts such distress? I feel that is unlikely. If Emma had continued to feature in the background of the family's life throughout the last 3 decades of the 19th century, I feel that some rumours would have come down through at least one of the lines, but I have never heard of this. I've always felt that "that woman" was probably some young "hussy" who Henry moved in with after Margaret's death, and who was therefore looked down on by the family.
Please let me know if you manage to cast any further light on this.
All the best
Tim
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As we approach the 20th anniversary of this brick wall, and coming up to 18 years since I first raised it on RootsChat, I thought I would renew an appeal for advice and information.
Henry Thomas Butler was born in the 1840s (or possibly 1851), most likely in London (but no birth certificate has been found), and died in 1906 in Hartlepool. He was an actor/theatrical manager/stage manager/comedian/artist. He and his "wife", Margaret McHale, had 10 children, 7 of whom lived to adulthood, and spent almost all their professional life based in N.E. England. No Butler-McHale marriage certificate exists. Shortly after Henry and Margaret's first child was born in London, a son was born in London to Emma Deighton, an actress, who sometimes styled herself "Butler" (but no Butler-Deighton marriage certificate exists). I believe that it has been demonstrated "beyond reasonable doubt" that the two children were both sired by Henry.
Shortly after the birth of these two boys, Henry and Margaret left London, never to return, all their other children being born in northern England. I believe this was linked to the Deighton child - Margaret probably knew of/learnt of the birth and insisted that they distance themselves from London.
Henry and Margaret appear in the 1881 and 1891 censuses, and Henry in the 1901 census, shortly after Margaret's death. Margaret also appears in the 1871 census, in Finsbury, as a married actress, boarding alone on census night. I have not found Henry in the 1851, 1861, or 1871 censuses.
However ... an earlier post proposed that Henry Thomas Butler was actually born Thomas Henry (Sherwin) Butler, in Q1, 1851, to Edwin Henry Butler, a theatrical agent, who usually styled himself "Henry Butler". Thomas Henry Butler is easily found in the 1851, 1861, and 1871 censuses, but thereafter disappears.
The facts about Thomas Henry and Henry Thomas can be made to fit. Thomas Henry is several years younger than Henry Thomas claimed to be, and 3 years younger than Margaret, but Henry Thomas may quite simply have inflated his age. In the 1871 census, Thomas Henry appears as a married shipping clerk, but living with his parents and not with his wife on census night. I had always assumed that Henry Thomas, being (or claiming to be) older than Margaret, was the one who got into theatre and then encouraged Margaret to become an actress, but possibly it was the other way round, if Margaret was indeed 3 years older. She may even have appeared in a production put on by Thomas Henry's father, which is how they might have met.
I have almost convinced myself that Henry Thomas Butler is Thomas Henry Butler, but it is certainly not conclusive. I would welcome comments and thoughts about whether I should indeed become convinced!
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Have you checked out the Thomas Henry Butler who died in Edmonton district in Dec 1874, age 23?
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Thanks Diana ... I had noted that death record, but haven't checked it yet. Obviously it's worrying for my theory, as the decedent is exactly the right age, although the location, while near London, is not particularly close to his 1871 location (of course, under my theory he had moved to Southport, where his 2nd son was busy being born at this time!).
That's why I thought I would first lay out my theory to see whether anyone completely destroys it. If not, then yes, I'll have to check out that death record.
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Thanks Diana ... I had noted that death record, but haven't checked it yet. Obviously it's worrying for my theory, as the decedent is exactly the right age, although the location, while near London, is not particularly close to his 1871 location (of course, under my theory he had moved to Southport, where his 2nd son was busy being born at this time!).
That's why I thought I would first lay out my theory to see whether anyone completely destroys it. If not, then yes, I'll have to check out that death record.
Hope you do knock down your brick wall; they can be so frustrating. At least this young man’s death certificate might help.