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Research in Other Countries => Canada => Canada Lookup Request => Topic started by: KayP on Tuesday 22 July 08 04:54 BST (UK)
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I am trying to find an ancestor of mine names Annie Vernon HARPER who was born in Lancashire about 1880. I have her and her family in the 1881 census and in later census returns I have the rest of the family but not her. Family stories have it that she was in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada in 1954 as my aunts went from Edinburgh to visit her on their way across to the West Coast. They called her "Auntie Polly" and said she was around 60 years old and was married to Jack ROWLEY who was a carpenter/furniture builder in Hamilton.
I have not been able to find Annie/Polly on any UK or Canadian census returns or her marriage or death. Jack died around 1960 as Annie/Polly made a trip back to UK then to visit her family. I tried to order death certificates for them but as I could not prove I was a family member I could not get these documents. I have no idea if they met and married in UK or Canada or what nationality Jack was.
Can anyone make any suggestions as to how I could go about finding this couple? This is a tough one as I have been searching for years and unfortunately have made no headway :(
Any suggestions very gratefully accepted.
Kay
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http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,27266.0.html
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I can't see a birth in England for Ann/Anne/Annie Vernon Harper on freebmd. There is one for Annie Vernon in 1880 in Warrington, though. Given the gap between the other two daughters and Annie, could Annie be an adopted/foster daughter?
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I can't see a birth in England for Ann/Anne/Annie Vernon Harper on freebmd. There is one for Annie Vernon in 1880 in Warrington, though. Given the gap between the other two daughters and Annie, could Annie be an adopted/foster daughter?
Given that one of the others listed on the 1881 census with the family was a 13 year old daughter named Anne it seems unlikely that Robert and Esther would give a second daughter the same name. With that in mind I think I found your Annie on the 1891 and 1901 census.
On the 1891 census for Gorton, Lancashire there is the following entry:
Geo Bigland, head, age: 24, occupation: police constable, born: Galgate, Lancashire
Anna Bigland, wife, age: 23, born: St. Helen, Lancashire
Margaret Bigland, daughter, age: 5 months, born: Gorton, Lancashire
Anne Vernon, cousin, age: 11, born: Warrington, Lancashire
(Source Citation: Class: RG12; Piece: 3176; Folio 33; Page 8; GSU roll: 6098286)
In the Free BMD there was a marriage registered in the 1st quarter of 1890 in Barton Upon Irwell, Lancashire for a George Bigland. The other names on the page were Annie Harper, Mary Clarke and Herbert Hancock. Given that the age and birth place for Ann Bigland matches that for Anne Harper on the 1881 census it looks pretty good that George Bigland married Annie Harper.
I also found Annie Vernon on the 1901 census in St. Helen, Lancashire listed in the household of George (Jr) and Francis Barton as follows:
Annie Vernon, barmaid, age: 23, occupation: barmaid, born: Warrington, Lancashire
(Source Citation: Class: RG13; Piece: 3519; Folio: 70; Page: 1)
I lost her after 1901 though.
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Hi Jacquie
I think you may have solved a puzzle but created another one ;) I have always wondered why Robert and Esther Harper would name one of their daughters Anne and the other Annie Vernon and the age difference was a problem too. The census copy that I had was a very old print out and I think I got years ago from the local LDS Family History Centre and it gave the name Annie Vernon Harper and said that she was a daughter to Robert.
Now for the other puzzle, was her sister Anne the one who went to Hamilton, Ontario and married Jack Rowley?????
Thank you so much for your help, much appreciated.
K
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Hi Jacquie
I think you may have solved a puzzle but created another one ;) I have always wondered why Robert and Esther Harper would name one of their daughters Anne and the other Annie Vernon and the age difference was a problem too. The census copy that I had was a very old print out and I think I got years ago from the local LDS Family History Centre and it gave the name Annie Vernon Harper and said that she was a daughter to Robert.
Now for the other puzzle, was her sister Anne the one who went to Hamilton, Ontario and married Jack Rowley?????
Thank you so much for your help, much appreciated.
K
The census image at Ancestry definitely says Annie Vernon Harper and has both Anne Harper and Annie Vernon Harper listed as daughters.
I don't think the Annie in Hamilton could be Ann Harper Bigland. She would have been in her late 80s in 1954 although Annie Vernon would have been in her mid-70s.
The birth registration will probably be the only way to solve this mystery. Here are the details for the registration jorose mentioned:
Name: Annie Vernon
Year of Registration: 1880
Quarter of Registration: Apr-May-Jun
District: Warrington
County: Cheshire, Lancashire
Volume: 8c
Page: 205
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http://www.findmypast.com/passengerListPersonSearchStart.action has a couple of entries for Annie Vernons of unknown age heading to Canada.
'cousin' possibly to Robert and Esther's daughter Anne suggests maybe that she was the child of Robert's siblings? (or maybe Esther's?).
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I have Ann Elisabeth Rowley arriving June 25/1954 on the "Salacia" in MOntreal. landed immigrant Canada with 6.25.54 beside it.
Kiddo
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Home CHildren
Annie and Nora(h) Vernon arrived 1908 9 & 11 years old on the Niagara Town Census 1901.
Annie Harper b. 1880 and her son? Hazel b.1897 living with Sherrick Family as "adopted" mistranscribed on Ancestry as Hasper. Look for Thomas E Sherrick will lead you to them. They are in middle Ontario in Stayner. Many Home Children were sent "north" so location is about right.
An Annie Harper (Home Child) arrived 1888 10years old to Miss Rye's in Niagara on the Lake.
??? Kiddo
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Thanks Jorose and Kiddo for more suggestions and advice. I am still puzzling over this and at the moment gathering all your information and trying to decide what to do first. I have previously tried to get info re Home Children but because I could not prove relationship to Annie Vernon Harper I was unsuccessful. It would be so helpful if there was a census for Hamilton, Ontario or Trade Directory for the 1950s ..... ::) My aunts who stayed with the Rowleys on their trip across Canada back in 1954 are both deceased as is my mum but she thought it was an Auntie Polly and she died around 1960. I have no proof unfortunately of which side of the family Annie/Polly came from - I always assumed it was my grandmother's side.
Anyway I will keep struggling on and be very grateful for sites like this and kind people like yourselves and others who offer help.
KayP
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re: jorose's find : Annie Vernon - births June quarter 1880 Warrington vol.8c p.205
NO Annie/Ann/Anne Harper born in that time period...
Have you picked it up yet? J.J.
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Got it J.J.
The notes are still in my "shoebox". Seeing if there is anything new..
Kiddo
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Well I was just wondering, because... well, it is likely reaching a long distance, but maybe someone can prove this to be a red herring...There was an Annie Vernon baptized June 2 1880 Parr, Lancs... parents William Vernon & Esther...I looked for an Annie with a father William and none were born in the area that I could see...So I just looked for Esther & William & still didn't find them...Then I found a widower William in 1881..
http://www.familysearch.org/Eng/Search/Census/household_record.asp?HOUSEHOLD_CODE=1881BR_3906577
and then checked the Freebmd to find an Esther age 42 died 1880...so perhaps she died in childbirth? I looked to see if there was a death for the baby & there wasn't...
Now I couldn't find Parr for proximity to Warrington dist. but if the father gave up the baby she might have been christened anywhere...
My husband's ancestor was given to the grandparents...Sometimes the baby that lived was blamed for the loss of the mother... so just a thought, although I may be all wrong here, if someone wants to look into this avenue and review what I've found as my brain can't always keep up... :P Of course getting that birth cert would help.
I am thinking they may have adopted her ( as jorose also said) ..may be relatives...or just looking after her?
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William Vernon m. Esther Harper in 1860 I believe (freebmd)
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Oh, man, jorose, you've solved it...I didn't look back far enough in years :P or maybe just stayed in Warrington when I searched...duh! ( I know it no longer was a concern but still wanted to solve her origins)
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Robert was born Parr ( Eccleston / Parr, both in Prescot district)
http://www.familysearch.org/Eng/Search/Census/household_record.asp?HOUSEHOLD_CODE=1881BR_3842009
His parents were James & Ann so if a sister maybe this is her birth?
Esther Harper - born April 15 1838
Christened April, 23 1838 Winwick, Ashton-in-Mackerfield, Lancashire, England
James Harper & Anne Name Note: 5th Child & 4th Daughter
christenings for parents James Harper & Ann
Ellen - 1831 Saint Helens
William - 1832 Saint Helens
Mary - 1834 Saint Helens
(David - 1835 Manchester?)
Ann - 1836 Winwick
Esther- 1838
James 1840 Winwick
Robert is listed, but as a submission...but they also have Esther born 1833, Wm 1830, etc.
http://www.familysearch.org/Eng/Search/igi/family_group_record.asp?familyid=359724502&indi_id=100418202964&lds=1®ion=2
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I think I may have found William and Esther on board a vessel called the Flat John on the 1861 census.
William Vernon, married, 33, master, born Liverpool
Jonathon Vernon, widower, 55, mate, born Northwich, Cheshire
Esther Vernon, married, 23, wife of master, born Sutton, Lancashire
(Piece: 4506; Folio: 220)
On the 1871 census in Warrington is:
Esther Vernon, wife, married, 32, waterman's wife, born Lancashire, Ashton
George Vernon, son, 9, born Lancashire, Warrington
Mary Ellen Vernon, daughter, 6, born Lancashire, Warrington
Margaret Vernon, daughter, 4, born Lancashire, Warrington
Amelia Vernon, daughter, 1, born Lancashire, Warrington
Esther Lee, sister, married, 36, born Lancashire, Warrington
Ada Lee, niece, 2 months, born Lancashire, Warrington
(Piece: 3903; Folio: 22; Page: 1)
Esther Lee is actually Esther's sister-in-law. There is a marriage for Esther Vernon in Warrington in the 3rd quarter of 1863 that has a Joseph Lee on the same page (vol 8c, page 155). This family certainly matches up with the one JJ found on the 1881 census.
I think the 1881 census that had Annie Vernon listed with the surname Harper was a mistake by the enumerator when transcribing the census. It is certainly possible he got over-zealous with the ditto for the surname and relationship.
Jacquie
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That's what I thought at first too, Jacquie...But she isn't with the family in later censuses? William had a large family on his hands, perhaps Esther's brother may have agreed to raise her...but I guess he might just be looking after her for a while...and maybe she is helping with the baby rather than living with Annie Bigland...she is listed as her cousin.
Wonder if we can ever find her marriage to a Rowley? I found a marriage U.S. 1920 for an Annie Vernon Harper, & got all exited...but it was to a Percy T. Campbell.
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It is possible that William thought his eldest daughters could help with some of the children but a baby may have been too much. Like you said, we also can't assume that because she was on the census with the other families that she was living there permanently.
Jacquie
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Seems TOT BUT:
I have John Rowley b. Brantford (20 in from Hamilton) living in Detroit at time of marriage , carpenter
marrying Annie King in Brantford June 13 1924
Annie d/o Thos King and Mary Mellican ???which doesn't fit at all
but her witness was from Hamilton.
The parents throw it off but if she was a home child would it be a "taken" name and she's a bit too old
BUT:
John Rowley looks good..do you think there are other marraiges along the way maybe he married our Annie later, there are 30 years in there for something to happen?? He is a carpenter and he lives very near Hamilton??
I'll continue hunting from this side back..
Kiddo ???
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The marriage registration for John Rowley and Annie King indicates both were born in Brantford. It also indicates John was 30 and Annie was 32 at the time of their marriage which would give her a birth year of 1894 so she's much too young to be the Annie on the 1881 census. Also I found Annie with her parents on the 1901 Canada and her father was born in Ontario and her mother in Ireland. I found John Rowley on the 1901 census as well and his parents were both born in Ontario and his father (who was with them) was born in Ireland.
Kay, going over some of the information in this thread I'm not sure I understand why you think Annie Vernon Harper born 1880 is this Annie/Polly. You indicated that your aunts said she was around 60 in 1954 which would give her a birth year closer to 1896. Even if she was closer to 70 that would still make her too young to have been born in 1880.
Jacquie
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Jacquie..I posted this marriage as a remote possibility for "Jack" and an "Annie" because the name and profession and locale all work for Kay's verbal story from her aunties. Just a piece of info for thought.
Checking out more Harper/Rowley's in Hamilton area..
K.
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Hi Kiddo, et al..hard to follow this thread, I know...but I think we finally proved she wasn't a home child. J.J.
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Hmmm...but kiddo's point taken that Jack could have been married previously and so might Annie have been...
Who knows if we aren't looking at the same man as she found, but with a second marriage to annie...and certainly at any time of life....and even to the Annie Campbell found.....anyway, a needle in a haystack to find the information if it goes that far into the century...J.J.
and for those wondering, Jack/John are interchangeable...don't ask me why it is so?
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Here's what I'm asking, Kay:
Why are you sure that Aunt Polly and Annie Vernon Harper are one and the same?
It occurred to me since my last post that Polly is a nickname for someone named Mary, not Annie.
You also indicated that your aunts said she was about 60 when they visited her in 1954. If their age estimate was correct, it would be impossible for the Annie Vernon Harper who was on the 1881 and 1891 census to be Aunt Polly because someone who was about 60 in 1954 would have been born about 1894, not 1880.
Is there a Mary in your lines that could be the Aunt Polly your aunts referred to?
Jacquie
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Kay.. I apologize!!
Kiddo (me) decided to work on finding "Jack" and "Annie/Polly" (Vernon/Harper) Rowley from this CAN. side in Hamilton based solely on the description from the Aunties. (Please note they are Kays aunties not mine) and it is Kay's thread.
I am not convinced this Annie is Annie Vernon, but I believe this couple fits the description given..John's name and "Annie", ages, occupation, locale all fit. "Auntie" was also a term used for close friends of the family.
Other possibles I have found are:
Annie Hasper/?Harper the adopted daughter (home child)living with Sherricks in Stayner doesn't appear to pan out.
1901 There is an Annie V Harper b. 1883 ONtario living with her parents Hamilton
Father - Will. J. Harper (Irish)40 Car Conductor Hamilton Street Railway
Mother - Annie 40
Siblings
So maybe the question to Kay is ..How is Annie or Auntie Polly related to your Mum. and what are the names in her generation. It might help look for a family naming pattern or a generation in between. Also did the aunties visit other family on their trip across Canada??
Tangential thinking..or cast a wide net!!
I'll be quiet now!! ;D
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My apologies to you, kiddo. I got you and Kay mixed up. I meant to address my questions to her. I'll edit my post to reflect that.
Jacquie
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ah, we posted together....whew, I was wondering what?? ( so no need to post that it was she who made the initial booboos re: age & name....nor has she answered us )
I should apologize for making the thread longer but I wanted to solve the baby thing and I believe we may have found the correct parents.. ...the other well... we aren't a site for searching for descendants , anyway, but for ancestors...
so, Good job! Let us get on to another search ! Hugs! J.J.
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JJ, Jacquie and kiddo -
I just received your message JJ and have spent ages reading back over the messages that have been flying around the past couple of days. I have no idea you were still working on this.
I have been doing some searching of my own and I too have come up with the possibility that Annie Vernon Harper living with Robert and Esther Harper in the 1881 census is in actual fact a niece or Robert's and was Annie Vernon, daughter of William and Esther (nee Harper) Vernon. Annie's mother died in 1880 (possibly in child birth or shortly after) and maybe she was with her aunt and uncle whose children were older just to help out her father as he had quite a few other children (the youngest being about 4 and rhe eldest about 16).
I have found William and his family through his marriage to Esther in 1860 and then on the census 1861, 1871, 1881, 1891 and 1901. Annie Vernon does not show up with her birth family on the 1891 or 1901. William had many brothers and sisters as did Esther so I have a feeling that Annie may have been taken in by anyone of them over the years so I really do not think that she is a Home Child.
I have photographs of Annie and Jack Rowley taken around 1954 when my aunts visited them in Hamilton, Ontario. I have just been going on their say so as to how old she was and I could have misunderstood. Unfortunately the aunts have passed away and so has anyone else in the family who could have helped. From the photos Jack and Annie look "elderly" but of course that is not much help. I did wonder if there was anywhere I could find out about Annie's passport application from Canada. She must have needed one when she visited the UK around the time Jack died in the 1960s or so? Maybe that would help.
I am pretty sure that she was Auntie Annie to the aunts and they may have confused her with name with someone else. We have no Polly's, Mary's or otherwise in the family. Annie Vernon was my mum's first cousin 2x removed. The connection is through my mum's great grandfather Robert Harper who was brother to Annie's mum Esther. My grandmother was also called Esther (nee Holland) and there are lots of Esthers in the Vernon and Harper families too.
It was my mum who said that Jack Rowley had a furniture making business in Hamilton but she had no idea if he was from UK or Canada. She also said that it was an aunt of her mother's who they were going to visit and that ties in exactly with the relationship between Annie Vernon and my grandmother Esther Holland (daughter of Robert and Esther Harper's daughter Esther who married Henry Holland)
Thank you J.J., Jacquie and kiddo once again for your work on my behalf - you really are stars ;D
Now I have information about Annie's family and I truly feel that she is the daughter of William and Esther Vernon and that Robert and Esther Harper were looking after her for William either for a short spell or on a longer term or as mentioned she could even have been "visiting" them on the night of the census. Its a tricky one but it is amazing to have come so far with these records and feel fairly confident about the findings. I am going to keep on searching for her and Jack.
Thank you so much for everything.
KayP
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Kay
I so glad you have made those connections! Thanks for explaning..
Jacquie (of the great Canadian Logo)..too many K's I guess. ;-) sorry to confuse everyone...
I hate being beaten by something "in my own back yard" so to speak. I was a kid growing up with a pile of relatives all over Hamilton at the time '54. Wish I had an old phone book!!
See you all out there.. ;D
Kiddo
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Problem solved - thank you so much to Jorose, J.J., Jacquie and kiddo and also to the others who have given me help and advice in trying to sort out what happened to Jack and his wife.
It turns out that I was correct when I thought my aunts had mentioned an Uncle Jack and Auntie Polly, I just managed to convince myself it was an Auntie Annie we were looking for. Jacquie, you reminded me that "Polly" can be another name for "Mary" and then kiddo suggested I try the Hamilton Public Library for information in the City Directories. They told me that John Rowley and wife Mary lived at 14 Greenaway Avenue in Hamilton from 1954 until John died in 1957 and then Mary lived there until 1970. Also they told me that there was a burial for a John Rowley 1874-1957. I have been checking and found a Border Crossing from Canada to USA in 1923 which was for John Rowley, wife Mary at the above address. From that I discovered that John was born in 1874 in St Helens, Lancashire (where all my other relatives are from). I then found John and Mary Rowley on the 1901 census in Bolton Lancashire. Mary was also born in St Helens in 1876. I then went through my own records and found a Mary Ball daughter of Samuel and Lassey. I also found this marriage:
Marriage: 22 May 1899 St Peter, Bolton, Lancashire, England
John Rowley - 24 years Bricklayer Bachelor of 30 Halstead Street
Mary Ball - 23 years Spinster of 106a Castle Street
Groom's Father: William Rowley, Contractor
Bride's Father: Samuel Ball, Plate Glass Maker
Witness: William Rowley; Mary Yare
Married by Banns by: E. Hoskyns, VicarRegister: Marriages 1893 - 1902, Page 164, Entry 327
Mary Ball is the great aunt of my twin aunts who went to visit Jack/John and Mary/Polly (not Annie after all) in 1954. So finally, after all this time of looking for Annie Vernon Harper I now discover I should have been looking for Mary Ball Wink Isn't that the way family history goes though?
So I have, with all of your help, solved two family puzzles. I now know the origins of Annie Vernon (not Harper) and have found the Rowleys after all this time living in Hamilton.
You guys have been great help and I thank you all once again. Everyone on this message board has been so generous with their time on my behalf.
KayP