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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Derbyshire => Topic started by: Shirles on Sunday 20 July 08 10:58 BST (UK)
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Hi List
Can anyone decipher what this town in Derbyshire would be. Comparing the rest of the census handwriting it looks as if the first letter is an 'S'.
Greatly appreciate any help.
Best wishes
Shirley
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Hi Shirley,
Could be Smalley or Smisby, but I'm not convinced.
Have you looked to see what the birthplace is on an earlier or later census, Shirley?
Good luck,
Paulene :)
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Hi Paulene
I should have said this is taken from an 1851 Census and as you know the 1841 wont tell me where she was born and then she died in 1855 in Hanley Street, Birmingham so no help there.
I'm pretty sure we have looked at those towns and as there doesn't appear to be a 'y' discounted them.
Thank you for your suggestions though.
Best wishes
Shirley
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Hi Shirley,
That's a shame.
Did wonder if it was a y with a faint tail at the end.
Will have a look on the wirksworth site and get back if there are any clues on there.
Paulene :)
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Hi Paulene
Excuse my ignorance what is the 'wirksworth' site please?
Best
Shirley
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Pleasure, Shirley.
The site is a fantastic site for anyone researching Derbyshire (my dad's home county):
www.wirksworth.org.uk.
Enjoy!
Not having much luck so far, sadly :(
Paulene :)
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Sorry, Shirley - can't find anything remotely like it on place-names search, or list of places on 1841 census search.
Are you able to tell what name you're looking for and approx. age - might be able to find a baptism; that's if you haven't found one already.
Paulene :)
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Hi Paulene
On her death certificate she is age 90 in 1855, so born abt 1765. Elizabeth Frost was her married name and she married John Frost. First child I have found John was born in 1807 and then in 1811 a daughter Mary Frost. This is very late to be having children, but not unheard of and it was possibly a second marriage.
Unfortunately I have no resources at all for Derbyshire, so if I could find the village/town she was born I could send for a Parish Register or micro fiche as I have a reader.
Thank you for helping.
Best wishes
Shirley
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Hi Shirley,
Tried finding John and Elizabeth's marriage - nothing, except one in 1799 on the BMDregisters.co.uk site - but you need to pay to view.
Only baptims for a John and Mary are at Doveridge, and can't find a place beginning with S near there.
There's a burial on the www.findmypast.com site (National Burial Index) for a Mary Frost in 1805, Derbyshire - might be one of their children who died, but there again it's a pay to view site.
Looked at wills, registers, administrations, etc on the wirksworth site, but nothing as yet, Shirley.
Sorry! Not an easy one, is it.
May try again later, but need to get on with some other things at the moment, as I have my sister coming tomorrow - good luck in the meantime.
Best wishes,
Paulene :)
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Thank you very much for your help Paulene.
I will have a look at those sites and see what turns up.
Best wishes
Shirley
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Shirley,
Thought I'd better catch you while you're still online.
Could you please let me have the census details for 1841 and 1851 for Elizabeth, please?
Will need these for when I come back to it later, for last shot at it.
Thanks.
Paulene :)
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Hi Paulene
I've just been going through the places in Derbyshire again and if Elizabeth, who perhaps was not literate, said to the Census Taker, she was from Shirland, Derbyshire, might you spell it Sureland???? What do you think?
There are lots of Frosts in Derbyshire aren't there?
I have the 1841 census of Elizabeth's son John Frost [1807] who married Sarah Dale. H0107/1141/13. I think the family next door are connected.
I have the 1851 Census of John and Sarah with Elizabeth living with them age 81 ~ H0107/2058 I found this under John Trost. It has just stroke me that Elizabeth's death certification in 1855 puts her age as 90 so there is a 4 year age discrepancy.
I am still looking for John Frost Senior and Elizabeth in 1841.
My son and daughter in law are coming shortly but I will keep popping back and forth.
Good luck
Shirley
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Hi Shirley,
Still struggling, I'm afraid.
All the census infomation on John Frost jnr seems to say he was born in Warwickshire - but can't find evidence for that.
Can't find John and Elizabeth's marriage either.
Wondered if the birthplace of the servant (Ashbourne, Derbyshire) on the 1851 census is a clue?
Paulene :)
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Hi Paulene
How silly I am I looked at the servant and thought her surname was Hatton, I have looked again and it is Maria Walters ~ the informant on Elizabeth's death certificate, but also her daughter Mary Walters married Thomas Frost, son of John Frost [1807] who married Sarah Dale. Maria's
maiden name was Hardy born Ashbourne, Derbyshire and she married John Walters, don't know when. Mary, their daughter was born in 1826 in St Peter's., Wolverhampton.
Some more pieces for the jigsaw puzzle ..........
Many thanks Paulene
Shirley
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Hi again shirley,
Confusing lot aren't they!
Do you know when John's wife, Sarah, died?
Paulene :)
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Hi again shirley,
Confusing lot aren't they!
Do you know when John's wife, Sarah, died?
Paulene :)
Added:
Sorry, Shirley - Internet Explorer said it could not display the page so I presumed it hadn't posted the first message, so just ignore this. :-\
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Shirley,
My feeling is it might be Sturston - which is 1 mile east of Ashbourne.
There's another place called Snelston, which is about 3 miles away from Ashbourne, bu the more I look at it the more I think it's Sturston.
If you look at the way he writes his letter 'S' when he writes it followed by a 'T' you'll see what I mean.
Let me know what you think, Shirley.
Fingers crossed.
Paulene :)
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Hi Paulene
Yes ~ Sarah Frost (nee Dale) died 29 Sep 1847 in Birmingham. I don't have her birth abt 1810 but don't know where.
Shirley :)
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Hi Shirley,
John and Sarah's marriage was at Handsworth, Staffs. in 1834.
Favourite for Sarah's baptism at the moment looks like Birmingham.
Paulene :)
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Hi again
Sorry Paulene I should have said I had their marriage, and I also think Sarah is likely to have been born in Birmingham, but can't find it at the moment. ???
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Hi Shirley,
That's Ok.
Let me tell you what I've found so far:
Marriage for a John Frost to Ellen Etches - Ashbourne, St. Oswalds
12 Jun 1803
Birth of Elizabeth Etches (Betty) - various dates 1762 and 1763 at St. Oswalds, Ashbourne.
Have a look, and a think about it all.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sturston,_Derbyshire
Catch up with you soon - need to do a bit of ironing.
Paulene :)
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Looks interesting ~ I will take a look but I need to close down for tonight I have a hospital appt in the morning, I will get back to you asap.
Many thanks for your help, it is much appreciated Paulene.
Best wishes
Shirley
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Hi Shirley,
Hope all goes well.
No rush - you need time time now to have a think, and sort through everything.
Take care,
Paulene
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Hi Paulene
I am favouring Elizabeth Green's marriage to John Frost 23 11 1803 in Derby, but only because it is in the right time frame ~ I can't find it on the wirksworth site and I wouldn't include it on my Family Tree without more proof/link.
That's all I have for now.
Many thanks for your help Paulene.
Best wishes
Shirley
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Hi Shirley,
Let me know if you ever solve it! Fingers crossed.
Take care,
Paulene :)
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Can't help you with name of town ,but there is an Elizabeth Frost in 1841 census birth dates a little off living in Birmingham and born somewhere other than Warwickshire ; she is described as seller of milk, which might tie in with son John's occupation in 1851 as milkman.
Liz
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Hi Liz
I have had a look on Ancestry and there are multiple choices for Elizabeth Frost born 1765/66.
I believe she was born in Derbyshire because she is with Maria Walters (widow) in the 1851 census. Maria was born in Asbourne, Derbyshire and her daughter Mary Walters married Thomas Frost in 1864 in Birmingham.
Maria Walters was the informant on Elizabeth Frost death certificate.
Thomas Frost [1837] born in Handsworth, Birmingham, was Elizabeth Frosts grandson.
I hope to knock this brickwall done eventually.............
Thank you very much for your interest.
Best wishes
Shirley
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hi,
It looks like Swales to me. Although i don't know if its a real town or something i've read about in a book. [I do read a lot of books and fiction and reality often get mixed up]
Flame
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Thank you flame ~ I haven't come across that village, but I do need to get an old OS map of Derbyshire.
Thank you for your suggestion.
Best wishes
Shirley
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Hi, it looks like SMEDLEY. Dont think theres a village of that name but there is a Smedleys Mill near Wirksworth/Matlock.
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Thank you Ann ~ nothing is coming up on the Wirksworth website, but I will try on IGI.
Best wishes
Shirley
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Hi, it looks like SMEDLEY. Dont think theres a village of that name but there is a Smedleys Mill near Wirksworth/Matlock.
Mmm...that's what i was thinking,like you say there is no(or can't find a village anyway) of that name,there is a Smedley Street in Matlock,not that that really helps.
Steve
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Hi folks,
Although I thought it was a 'y' at the end at fiirst I don't think it is - if you look at his ''y' in derbyshire it's so definite - that's why I'm leaning towards it being an 'n' now.
Paulene :)
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in interim I hope you've solved your puzzle.
Just outside of Ashbourne there is Sudbury, Scropton, Somersall (and Hatton is there too.)
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What if the enumerator taking down the information asked, "what is the place in Derbyshire?" and the resident answered, " it's Mellor".
The enumerator might have written as it sounded: 'smelor. ;D
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Hello Griz and JudeR
I still have a query against the place. Thank you for your suggestions, I have to keep reminding myself that many people were illiterate, even if the Census Taker asked how to spell a place, they weren't able to tell him.
Thank you once again.
Shirles
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Hi Shirles,
Not sure if this is any help but an extract from the IGI has an Elizabeth Green being born in Cubley 1765 (F:Joseph, M:Ann). According to Google Maps, Cubley is about 5-6 miles from Ashbourne. Doesn't really help with the unreadable town but nearby to Cubley are Shirley and Snelston (among various other Ss).
All the best,
J
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Many thanks for your interest J.
I am keeping all the information and will go back to the drawing board with it all and as soon as I can I will take a fresh look at it.
Best wishes
Shirley
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Eh willow whats thar*** doing in my area Derbyshire/Yorks/Notts
well there a funny thing! As as a were-a coming back from Warwick last week, I pulled of the (M) A 42 for a refreshment at Ashby- de-la- zouch. That village I know well whats mi call it.??? Smisby! :-[
Ok got cold proper poorly :'(
:(
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Ummm it's yet another possibility. I hope your cold gets better soon Dobfarm.
Best wishes and thanks
Shirley
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Ahhh, hope you're feeling a bit better now, Dobby :)
I'm often on the Notts and Derbyshire boards - my dad came form Ilkeston, Derbyshire. Then he moved to Notts, where I grew up and lived, before moving to East Northants eleven years ago.
Regularly go back to visit Notts and S. Derbyshire.
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Hi Wills
Though mine more north Derby/Notts
hope your cold better as well
Hi Shirley.
Hope it helps
Willow will put you on right track if any one can.
I'm shoveling out my Tish-oohs too fast to help.
Wills ~I'll Going back to Warwick next week get my own back and give em back there riddy cold bug.
Dobby
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:-[
I think you flatter me, Dobby.
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Wills
Us yorkie's flatter nob-die and say it as is!
Post page 1 rely 2 Smisby by Willow.
Hear all! see all! an say now't! maybe best just now
Bye all let you lot get on with business-I'm off to bed.
Achoo>>>>>. Blow mi down
Byeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
Dobby
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Take care, Dobby :) + don't do too much!
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ok.
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Hi ,
To me it looks like the village of Smalley near Heanor , it may have been spelt different or a mistake made in the spelling.
This happened to me for a village I was researching.
Good luck
Paul
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Thank you Paul for another good suggestion ~ I think at this rate I will be putting all suggestions in a hat and pull one out? Only joking, it has to be right or a well calculated guess.
Many thanks once again everyone.
Best wishes
Shirley
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How about
http://www.derbyshireuk.net/snelston.html
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Hi Nick
Thank you for your suggestion of Snelston I think that was the one my husband thought too.
Best wishes
Shirley
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Hi Shirley,
I think you'll be guessing at this for ever. Best is to work on Elizabeth's marriage and baptism. Litchfield or Matlock archives (records office) offices, write to family history societies and social studies libraries around the areas where you think see was born/bapt. Lichfield Bishops transcipts has some south derbyshire. BumbleB ( put Archbell in search to find her on rootschat.) is the person to contact on these archives.
Least you will be on the right road to finding something also have a sniff round Derbyshire resources (Websites)on the home pag Rootschat websites .
If IGI have an Elizabeth marriage then the witnesses names may hold clues!! though limited on other info but one never knows.
Goods luck
Dobby
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Ps Need maiden name hence marriage par reg and if one male wittness is the same surname you've cracked it ie brother or cousin same granddad.
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Hi Dobby
Yes you are right of course, as two of their children were born in Arley, Warwickshire, I have been to Birmingham Record Office to look for a marriage around the beginning of the century as John Frost Jnr was born 1807 and Mary Frost in 1811.
I will follow your suggestions, I am very grateful for your advice and expertise.
Many thanks
Best wishes
Shirley
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Hi Shirley
I would go for these records or Bishops Transcipts at Lichfield archives.
Bishops Transcripts
Contemporary copies of the registers of parishes in the present diocese of Lichfield, c1660 to c1880, with north and east Warwickshire parishes to c1840 and Derbyshire parishes to c1860.
http://www.staffordshire.gov.uk/leisure/archives/LichfieldRecordOffice/LichfieldSources/
Also try Nuneaton FHS
Matlock (Derbyshire) record office is the place though.
Derby local studies library I would also write to or email.
Though these web sites. Hugh Wallis & LDS IGI are good
These are a few but there are many more.
Bmsgh web site (maybe a website similar in Derbyshire) for Bir/War/Staffs charge about £4 for 3 look ups but you get the best there is and found my Grans marriage 1803 Merevale near Atherstone Wars. thus is worth paying a little long term . ie;- Time- Petrol /Busfare.
the places above are the core of the apple.
http://www.genealogy-links.co.uk/html/dby.lookup.html
http://www.faulkes.co.uk/lookup/derbys.htm
http://therecordshub.com/ukrecords.php?find=TMMARR&record=Marriage%20Records
Well I should not be here (as Doctor) :-[
I know Noffing ******* 8)
Dobby
ps where is Debys town
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Hello Dobby
My goodness you have given me plenty of homework, thank you once again, I haven't been able to do any research today, lots of visitors, but I did put Archbelle into the search facility but no luck there. I'm sure I heard of Bubblebee perhaps on one of my other posts.
'Debys' is my attempt at an abbreviation, my apologies for that.
Thanks again for your help
Best wishes
Shirley
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http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=361360.new;topicseen#new
buzzy bee
A sharpe lady~ fast ~gives sound advice ~way out of my league
Dobby
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Hi Dob
Sorry again for the delay in replying, I am so busy I am meeting myself coming backwards.
Many thanks for the link, I hope BumbleB wont mind, I will try contacting her when I can sort myself out.
Best wishes
Shirley
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Bumbleb works on! Direct! Sort direct wants, info and will reply with the same directness. but she a great lady to know though..............
The business.!
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Cheers Dob
Thanks very much
Best wishes
Shirley
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she gets result full stop.
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http://www.wirksworth.org.uk/DIALECT1.HTM
if the people who wrote the census were not from derbyshire they would not have understood how to spell the words
sylvia
ex derbyshire
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John Frost
babtised
1 Jun 1801
Breadsall
Father John Potter
Mother Elizabeth Frost
mmmmmmmmn
might help
sylvia
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i'ehe bart gumb ~sithi er~ Shi wirt tratin to Nick! ou't slang from art yorkie lin-de _ Reigth!
Yon wib -art ~Nu nor wra tarkin abart.
thar no-ass
He by Gum!
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Hi Sylvia
Food for thought isn't it? Thank you very much for your interest.
Best regards
Shirley
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Me no comprende Dobby ??? ;D
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Hi: One of these days I will swing for Dobbie ;D ; ::)
However, burials for Mary Frost 1805 - two of them, both in Duffield, Derbyshire, No ages given for either, and not a million miles away from Smalley!?
BumbleB
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Mum was Derbyshire~ Dad a Yorkie and Granddad Both born Derbyshire~ Bapt Yorkshire
Mi Duck!
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don't know what they are talking about (Abart)
Sthi er (nearest) See you -there!
Reiht, Reight Reite - Right
Nu (Don't ) or (Know)
Duck! Derbyskire /Nottingham - ie love - yes love
Etc Tarkin -Talkin -......+tartin -trying
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Hi Shirles Try comprending Bromy -Yorkie-Derbyshire slang all mixed together. + a bit of cottney
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Pasg Hapus Dobby
Nos da
Pob Hwyl
Shirley
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Happy Easter to you
I Am going Daith (Ear ache-her!)
Only when looking at the vac' under the Stairs
19 hole last night.
North Star
Dobby
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Well done Dobby
I'll let you have the last word. ;)
Nite nite
Shirley
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:)
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Hello
Sent his nibs to bed
Lady Gertrude
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You'll all lost me - but HAPPY EASTER TO YOU ALL :)
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Hi Wills
Happy Easter you aswell.
All these yellow Icon have lead to me on dusting duty.
As somes been reading my post
Lady of the house.
Doddy
Ps Ho heck !
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http://www.andrewspages.dial.pipex.com/dby/index.htm
good site for info
also
John Frost
Eliz Warren
Marriage 1802
Ilkeston
george frost assault on william bennett ripley fine 1s costs 18s ripley 21 Feb 1870
william frost stealing linen jacket 14 days alfreton 1872
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Hi Sylvia
Thank you for that very useful link, it has given some more options as to what the district in Derbyshire may be.
As to possiblities for the marriage of John and Elizabeth ???? they continue to grow, how I wish they entered the maiden name of Elizabeth on the baptism entry of their son John's birth in Arley, Warwickshire in 1807.
Many thanks to everyone for your help.
Best regards
Shirley
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Ho Well all happens at the pub.
May as well put it on this post.
Useful to learn on this subject as ways of olden days! One lad came in telling all his mates he'd been laying his carpet all afternoon found the door needed 1/4 inch of the bottom to clear the carpet. So out came the saw and back went the door! Whats up! his wife said? still catching he says.
What gap at the top for.
Old Thos said. miss now't women!!.
On returning home & parking the car, a nip into to the local pub for quick pint! Anyway as one thing leads to another and lads having a natter about important things in life like, golf, football, ways & excuses of lowering their wife's house keeping money to buy more pints of beer ! like inceased travel costs or if she's not into motoring? then the car electic bills gone up or what ever! we got on to these Private Baptisms. Well to cut a long story short? old Thos in the corner! pint in one hand & Pipe in the other, toes toasting off by the fire in his usual seat. (Must have reach a 100 ~10 birthdays ago) Suddenly shouts "out side lue Muck art ( out) day"every second Sunday of the month".
"Yond Vicar would pick it up with his human radar in the prevailing winds across the fens 3 streets away! being educated an all! unlike us country folk! thats why he'd have more than one church."
Food for thought
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Derbyshire Place-name Index
PLACE-NAMES beginning with
"S"
http://www.wirksworth.org.uk/DPI-S.htm
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i hope these frosts fit somwhere
sylvia
http://www.wirksworth.org.uk/C51-29.htm#W370c
1851 census
======================================
also
The Chesterfield Enumerators
http://www.wirksworth.org.uk/A20-1901.htm
a good read
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shirley
where did the info you are looking for answers to, come from
have you got the whole page
sylvia
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Hi Sylvia
Yes I have the whole census page if that is what you mean although I have cropped it to put in my book where it is also minimised, the number is:
1841 Census HO107/1141/12 ~ Elizabeth Frost Seller of Milk
1851 Census HO107/2058 ~ Elizabeth is living with her son John (this is the census that I can't decipher where Elizabeth was from.
I am very grateful for your help Sylvia.
It is my husbands birthday today so we are out shortly for the rest of the day.
I will check in as soon as I can.
Best regards
Shirley
P.s. I need to send them separately they are too large, please bear with me.
ps.s. Sorry even one is too large can I send them to your email if you let me have it within a P.M.
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Hello Shirley, Hope your ready for easter. and Both OK in health.
Many people use the census at face value and never go futher than the original sheet of names. Only if you don't know!* if you use ancestry.co.uk to access the census. at the top of the page is Enumerations with sub districts number and the census recorders account of his streets covered street by street on his patch or area covered. Thus your original post one of the district of S----- :D on the main original census will be repeated & maybe more clear and streets as well. ;D
Just click on the top flow liniar row -Emuneration-District 1- too X ?) you'll see Just click on every thing at the top of the page if unsure.
If your not in ancestry.co.uk Join for one month about £ 12 then unsubscibe. next month. but should answer!!** 'Simples' as the Meerkat on TV
Best regards :)
Dave
Ps off to the Pub for old Thos's old stories.* hate being serious*
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Plus Try this in these places surgested of place of birth to compared with other similar places. Look through other names to see if S..... repeats in other peoples birth place.
Meaning look at this census recorders hand writting and get to know it.~~~~ cover many names and pages
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Hello Dobby
Yes that is a very useful tip, unfortunately, this Census was taken in 1851 and in Birmingham and I think the Census Taker may not have known how to spell the district in Derbyshire and Elizabeth more than likely illiterate so not able to help him with the spelling.
I will look back at the other Census' written by this Taker though.
Many thanks
Shirley
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Shirles: I'm rapidly losing track of this ::) However, I'm going into Lichfield Archives tomorrow and I'm going to have a look at the Smisby BTs - the more I look at your extract the more I'm sure that it's Smisby - but ::). Remind me of the name and timing of your original post and I'll have a look to see what I can find.
BumbleB
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Hi Shirley,
I'li Check Matlock Derbyshire records offices out for these names of S---- villages surgested! the object is to find which village has this family name in its records - Ie Census 1841/51c S---- and Bapt/Marriage/Buriels and national buriels if the family S----. Also BMD nonconformist website and Hugh Wallis IGI lds. to see if a pattern emerges. Long shots sometimes pay off.
I have some work on my own CUTTS family at Matlock Archives office
Burials in Findmypast may show a pattern on its own by surname only search as free info give location. I'll be in York next week and their WILLS may show family surnames to locations if they got that far south.
Other posters my find as well.
All for now
Dob
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Hello Bumblebee and Dobby
My original posting was to ask if anyone can decipher what this town in Derbyshire would be. Comparing the rest of the 1851 census handwriting it looks as if the first letter is an 'S'. (Please see Page 1 of this posting).
This is the place that Elizabeth maiden name unknown was from, she married John Frost, they had a son John Frost in Arley, Warwickshire in 1807.
Greatly appreciate that you may do look ups when you are at the Archives Bumblebee and any help either of you can give is very helpful, thankyou.
Best regards
Shirley
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Hi Shirley
Sorry I thought you Knew Elizabeth Frost maiden name.
I am a little puzzled as her age at death 81 in 51c and death 1855 age 90 = she'd 84 in 1855 by census a 6 year difference not that unusual!!, What does concern me his her age in relation to her being the mother in 1807 -1810. putting her 1807 = 37 -43 & 1810= 40- 46 meaning a tale end of a larger family putting a marriage 1785 -1806/7 or 2nd marriage or even 3rd ~a big time span.
Have you considered she could be the granny of John Frost b 1807.
all possible.
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Hi Shirely
This fits
There is no Elizabeth Frost for Leic's/Staffs/Warwickshire but about 5 in Derbyshire birth year 1771 -1841 census
Could be early marriage large gaps spread of sibling or many and though young it still fits the normal 20 ish wedding age rather than a marriage 1805ish in later life (34)years at marriage .! This below is aged 16 1787 marriage thus would need a fathers pemission and maybe licence bond marriage with ages on and fathers signiture.
John Frost married Elizabeth Marsh
in Bolsover Derbyshire 7th June 1787
Elizabeth Marsh Bapt Smalley Derbyshire 6th may 1771 fits as census age 81 in 1851c
Father Thomas Mother Dorothy
MY mother came from Bolsover and her Granddad from Warwickshire, Workers came up from there to find work in the mines of Derbyshire. Thus either John or Elizabeth families may have originated from Nunheaton area.
STRONG POSS
:) Dobby
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Hi Shirley: I've been into the Archives today and can confirm that there was a marriage in Bolsover between John Frost and Elizabeth Marsh on 7 June 1787. However, there was no further information in the BT. I also had a try for Elizabeth Marsh's baptism in Smalley - and guess what - there is a gap in the BTs including 1771 ::) ::) so sorry, I've drawn a blank on that one for you.
BumbleB
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Hi Shirley.
I'll check Elizabeth Marsh bapt 1771 on the church register records at Chesterfield social studies Library on fiche as not in BT's Litchfield as BumbleB's look up.
Parish registers and poor law records for Trusley, 1538-1981 Church of England. Parish Church of Trusley (Derbyshire)
Parish registers for Smalley, 1626-1985 Church of England. Chapelry of Smalley (Derbyshire)
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Hello Bumblebee and Dobby
You have both been working very hard on my behalf, thankyou ~ I think Elizabeth's baptism in Smalley could be the right place. But I am having difficulty thinking they were married in Bolsover in 1787 but not having children until 1807. Unless there were other children I don't know about
of course. I had been thinking because of her age that it was not her first marriage.
Incidently her 'second' child with John Frost Snr was a daughter 'Mary' in 1811 in Arley, Warwickshire, wouldn't it have been great for her to be named 'Dorothy', that would have clinched it for me ~ but no help there either!!
I'm not too worried about the variation in her age on the census Dobby, as you rightly say it is not unusual to have these discrepancies.
Lots of food for thought, watch this space.
Many thanks for your help especially today.
Best wishes
Shirley
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Hi Shirley,
Yes your right to have misgivings and its early days.
The age on these post 1837death certs taken as must be right as gov.
My Gt Granny was 20 at marriage 1867 & died aged 60 1902
and signed X thus but was educated at counting in 10's and not in halves 0.5 -50% or dived by 2.=1/2 or 5years round offs
My oldest known on my mums side Phoebe Tidmarsh died 1852 age 83 on death cert- on the 41c age 60 on the 51c age 72 buried at Temple Balsall churchyard on her head stone age 72.
As siblings of 1787 Bolsover are in hugh wallis bolsover
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~hughwallis/IGIBatchNumbers/CountyDerby_(A-M).htm#PageTitle
John could be problems 1793 could have died as infant & 1807 2nd John child then moved on after last entry
If she was married before then you've a life time work. but ! think not.
Another marriage still out there round 1797-1806 but can't rule out 1787
the normal marrying age . = 1785-1795 of 20 to 30 years old at marriage
5 years diff at death age ~ marriage years out by + 10 years to the norm
funny old world
I'll confirm Eiz marsh 1771 bapt smalley
good hunting
Doddy
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Hi Shirley,
Yes your right to have misgivings and its early days.
The age on these post 1837 death certs taken as 'must be right' as gov.
My Gt Granny was 20 at marriage 1867 & died aged 60 1902
and signed X thus but was educated at counting in 10's and not in halves 0.5 -50% or dived by 2.=1/2 or 5years round offs
My oldest know on my mums side Phoebe Tidmarsh died 1852 age 83 on death cert- on the 41c age 60 on the 51c age 72 burreid at Temple Balsall churchyard on her head stone age 72.
As siblings of 1787 Bolsover are in hugh wallis bolsover
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~hughwallis/IGIBatchNumbers/CountyDerby_(A-M).htm#PageTitle
John could be problems 1793 could have died as infant & 1807 2nd Johnchild moved on after last entry
If she was married before then you've a life time work. but ! think not.
Another marriage still out there round 1797-1806 but can't rule out 1787
the normal marrying age . = 1785-1795 of 20 to 30 years old at marriage
5 years diff at death age ~ marriage years out by + 10 years to the norm
funny old world
I'll confirm Eiz marsh 1771 bapt smalley
good hunting
Doddy
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My own final opinion
Post one request on first letter of word F-i-n-c-I-e n
F-i-n [d]-e-n
They'ed been walking out together 10years or living over the brush
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~#
First name John
Last name: FROST
Date of burial: 18 Jul 1833
Age at death: 64
Calculated year of birth: 1769
Place of burial: Osmaston by Ashbourne
Dedication: St Martin
County: Derbyshire
Notes:
~~~~~~~~
Osmaston by Ashbourne St Martin:
Denomination: Anglican
John Frost Bapt 28th July 1768 in St Oswald Ashbourne Derbyshire
Married Elizabeth Green in Derby city Derbyshire
23 November 1803
Elizabeth Green bapt 16 th Nov 1769 Littleover/ Finden Derby Derbyshire
on the Ashbourne Road between Ashbourne and (But nearer)Derby
No one can be certain on anything pre 1837 but this one is better than most
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Hi
Now I'm convinced
Games set and match
IGI Lds
Elizabeth Frost
Baptism
22 SEP 1805 Ashbourne, Derby, England
Father John Frost
Mother Elizabeth
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WOW GOOD SLEUTHING
SYLVIA
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Hi Doddy
BRILLIANT ~ I am just going back to the drawing board on this to see if it all fits.
Not sure about the mistype or mistake Dave can you say again please?
Thank you for all you have done, I'll be back as soon as I can.
Best wishes
Shirley
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Hi Dave
I think you are spot on: after all I didn't know for sure where John Frost originated from, he had died by the time of the 1841 census. I have not been able to find a marriage or death for him in Birmingham either.
I am wondering why John Frost 1807 and Mary 1811 were born in Arley, Staffordshire. It is many miles away from Birmingham and very rural.
I am trying to speak to my nephew to see what he thinks of your findings but he is not at home.
Many thanks for what you have established Dave, I'm very grateful.
Best regards
Shirley
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Hi Shirley
Nothing is certain. these records are far too poor when the original parish records are seen as IGI Lds seems to make their online info so .as is!
pointers
Finden. as Elizabeths birth place on census if thats what it is.
Your Maria from Ashboure
Can ignore 1841c milkwoman age 60 41 c round off years to nearst 5 years. busy illiterate milk lady being pestered by the first census recorder asking her age who may think he fancies her :-*~ sure she'll knock off 10-15 years.
Only death for a John frost! around that time coming up in the national burial.
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Hi Maidmaria
Been called some stuff in my time but Sylvia is a first! :-\
Dobby
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Hi Shirley
Last post on this board from me as direct contact!
Any detective work found is by our some total efforts of all us roots chatter or listers
Bumbleb
Willow
( Sylvia) Maidmaria
and other posters
and off line contacts top advisors who have helped many behind the seens on this website.
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Hi Dobby
I truly appreciate all the help I have had from everyone on rootschat. My pleas for help are too many to mention from Technical help, photography, Montgomeryshire, Shropshire to mention just a few. This is a wonderful site and I am sincerely grateful to everyone who has helped me over the years including those behind the scenes.
Many thanks once again
Shirley
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sylvia
alias
maidmarian
hope this helps dobby ;D
sylvia
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Hi Sylvia
Miss read your post. Thought you thought! Dobfarm was Sylvia. Sorry
I'm Dave but most call me Dobby
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WELL HELLO DOBBY
SYLVIA
FORMALLY FROM NOTTS DERBYS
HEY UP ME DUCK
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Hi Miss Marple of Sherwood
A were looking at yond old oak at the Robin Hood festivial
last year. Thar noos-as. Seeing as ar' Robby Hood is'a buried in Kirklees Hall Yorkshire sayng that its only 10 miles from the Derbyshire Border in compo country at Holmfirth.
Wata- ar' thi doing in Sylver back Koo country
tatty bye
Dobby
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Hi
John Frost & Elizabeth Warren 12th Dec 1802 at Ilkeston
Any good from Phillimore Parish Records
Oly
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Hi Oly
Another possibility ~ thank you very much for your interest Oly.
Best wishes
Shirley
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dobby
i need a translation please for
Wata- ar' thi doing in ;D
__________________
Sylver back Koo country? ???
___________________
sylvia
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Hi
A sopos-ti-arve lif theus wi asar't but thi nooas ! s- onham war't let mi goa . Ee bart gum!
Yondi a las dun't noy er oown country? yeta edie bart!
Hey Well
Bys Bye
This is MY LAST POST ON ROOTSCHAT
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Ok Translation "What are you doing in the silver beached coast line of ozzy"
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Hi all
Confirmation Phillimore gives
John Frost & Elizabeth Green 23 Nov 1803 All Saints Derby
Eyop Dobby tha talks different to a Sarth Yorksheerman
Sithee Oly
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Ta muchly Oly
Best wishes
Shirley
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Hi Oly
That reminds me of Oly Reed! when being sober!! was like being drunk!! to the rest of us- Very Broad Yorkshire. up Holmfirth! takes me all my time to understand them!
I've suposed have finished on the boards as doing other stuff now. Just helping Shirley out then thats It. Just coming on for own ancestry stuff. Have done my bit to repay the help I got.
Regards Dobby.