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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => London & Middlesex Lookup Requests => London and Middlesex => England => London & Middlesex Completed Lookup Requests => Topic started by: adam_in_SW_Middx on Saturday 19 July 08 15:40 BST (UK)
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Please help, this side of my family has been really well covered up and was kept from me for a long time.
I am looking for the marriage of Edith E (previously unofficially Wrenn up to 1920s, Penfold from 1916 and previously Buxton from birth) who having married a Mr Jennings, died in Dec Quarter 1956:
Edith E Jennings 72 Croydon 5g p88 on 18/12/1956 in Mayday Hospital.
When was her marriage - it was in London I think as Mr Jennings was a Londoner. They married PROBABLY between 1930-1950.
I don't know his first name, but if you could find the death of a Mr Jennings who died between 1954 and 1960 in Croydon or Wandsworth it might help in your search as this is when he died I think. I think his name was Albert/Alfred.
I have the death certificate, she died in Mayday hospital and Edith's daughter registered it.
As Edith had children from a Mr Wrenn (but did not marry him as he stayed married to a different woman), there are four surnames she went by in her life - I wouldn't be surprised to find a fifth! e.g.
Marriages Mar 1925
Penfold Edith E Barclay Brentford 3a 239
Did an Edith E Barclay marry a Jennings?? or is there another marriage for an Edith E Penfold anyone can find after 1923.
any answers?
Chris
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Hi Chris
It's not very clear from your post as to what was her birth surname or what her middle name was - just shown as Edith E.
If she was born in 1884 as her age at death suggests, she could have first married anytime from 1902 when spouses names were not shown alongside entries.
You would need to know her first husbands name for cross checking purposes
Have you had a look on freebmd although the later periods involved are unlikely to be covered
http://freebmd.rootsweb.com
The type of search you are asking for could be complicated and lengthy so you need to search the full GRO index yourself which is available at your nearest main library if you live in the UK. It can also be searched online if you have an Ancestry subscription or at www.findmypast.com which is a paysite
I think you will find there are a great many "Mr Jennings" deaths between 1954-1960
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Edith E Jennings 72 Croydon 5g p88 on 18/12/1956 in Mayday Hospital.
I don't know his first name, but if you could find the death of a Mr Jennings who died between 1954 and 1960 in Croydon or Wandsworth it might help in your search as this is when he died I think.
I have the death certificate, she died in Mayday hospital and Edith's daughter registered it.
Chris
Chris let me get this straight,Edith died in Dec 1956- wife of Mr Jennings?
Doens't her death cert say 'wife' of xxx Jennings- or widow of...?
That would narrow down the date of his death of course. ;)
I am inclined to agree with Carole that there will be just far too many Jennings's over 6 years to pinpoint the right one.Even narrowing it to Wandsworth or Croydon districts.
Carol
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This request is also on http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,304494.msg1861545.html#msg1861545
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Chris
I have just trawled through all the marriages from 1925- 1956 and cannot see one for an Edith Wrenn to anybody called Jennings.
Is it possible that she met or married him abroad?
In which case it won't show on the England and Wales GRO indexes.
And of course there's always the possibility that she didn't marry him at all but just became known as Mrs Jennings if they lived together?
Maybe the person registering her death didn't know that for sure?
I've asked a moderator to merge the two threads you have going on this Jennings chap,to avoid someone else doing the same look ups.
Regards
Carol
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The library tip is the best reply yet, I'll go and have a look for Jennings deaths to narrow down a marriage search under that name. I have looked through the GRO under the name Edith Wrenn in the library but have not found anythingm perhaps she married in another name. I don't know the husband's name but the death certificate does not show if she was still married as her daughter registered it.
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Chris,
Is there absolutely NOTHING entered in the occupation column of Ediths death cert?
This is from the website giving some very useful info about BMD certs.
http://home.clara.net/dixons/Certificates/deaths.htm#COL8
"For a wife or widow - her occupation was considered to be being married to her husband! So there will not be any reference to her paid employment (and a vast number of women did work) but it will say wife (or widow) of .............(husbands name) ...........(his occupation) ."
Carol
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Hi
So how many of her marriages do you actually have certs for?
And do ANY give her full name?
I cant find any of them just quickly, though have not searched much.
She was having children with as Wrenn in 1920 &1923 according to freeBMD.
So - born Buxton in 1884 ish
married ?Penfold? in ??
married ?Wrenn in ??
married ?Jennings in??(that is the one that I know you dont have as you have asked for it)
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Hi, The two children who were born 1920 & 1923, are shown on the index twice. Once with the surname Wrenn and also with the surname Penfold, both show mother as Buxton and both set of entries have the the ref.numbers?
Jennifer
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Hi, Edith Buxton married William Penfold Sept qtr 1902 Maidenhead ref 2c932
Could Wrenn have been an also known as. Both children registered as both names. It would be interesting to know what it says on their birth certificates?
Did William Penfold leave a will?
Jennifer
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Yes after searching 1900-1920 at the FRC I found a William Penford marrying Edith Annie Buxton from St Pancras, who was born many years before (does not tie up with her death certificate) - I think the Edward Penfold marriage to Edith Penfold shown in June 1916 is it, as it is south london . The children's birth certificates say Penfold formerly Buxton as the mother's name. What she was known after 1923 and before marrying again is puzzling (Wren(n) or Penfold or Buxton), but definitely still Edith. Their father is named, Edwin Wrenn and his occupation, but he was definitely married til his death to another woman (i have met his other children)
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Hi,
Why were the children registered with the name Wrenn. I have never known anybody registered twice with different names but same reference number. I think I would contact the registrar general when in 1920 she should still have been a PENFOLD?
This query could just give you the answers you are looking for?
Has anybody else ever heard of this?
Jennifer
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Could it be that the dad's surname was Wrenn,but legally mum was still a Penfold? They registered them in his name as that was the one the kids would be known as?
Could it be that 1st hubby was missing in WW1 and so she wasn't free to marry till 7 years had lapsed(that happened to a friend of mine's grandma-in the meantime she had 3 kids with her new man,while she waited for the 7 years to be able to marry again 8))
I'm still trying to work out why she would be Edith Penfold and marrying someone called Edward Penfold,when we haven't found her marrying anyone as Edith Buxton yet have we?
Carol
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I think the Edward Penfold Marriage to Edith Penfold shown in June 1916 is her as the location is correct.
and:
I'm still trying to work out why she would be Edith Penfold and marrying someone called Edward Penfold,when we haven't found her marrying anyone as Edith Buxton yet have we? - quote form Carol, but I am not clever enough to work out how to put two quotes in one message!
I think we need some marriage certs before going any further, like the one mentioned for example - it all seems to be based on speculation at present. Or start with what is known for absolute definite - is it the Wrenn children that are definitely rellies? (seems so, if one of them registered the Mrs Jennings death) If so, start with a birth cert from one of them, or contacting registrar as Jen suggests. See what that gives about their mother, and work just one step at a time from there.
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,when we haven't found her marrying anyone as Edith Buxton yet have we?
Carol
Just re-read post and see Jen found marraige - see 10th post from the top - William Penfold in 1902.
but she was having Wrenn/Penfold children in 1920/23 - hmm 20 yrs later when about 40
I would guess that Mr P was not their Dad, but a Mr Wrenn was. Her name was Penfold still, so she registered them as Penfolds - but Mr W accepted paternity and they were re registered as Wrenns.
so when/if she later married Jennings (1923-1956) she would have married as Penfold.
So when Carol trawled through marriages looking for a Wrenn/Jenning marriage (5th post in this thread) and found none - we really needed a Penfold/Jennings marriage.
If you are off to the library, Chris, (6th post) then I think (only think!!) that this is what you should be looking for.
hold on!! Having just typed all this I see from chris's last post that he HAS the birth certs - under Penfold at least....
So - what does that give for the fathers?
Ahhhh I am confused now... why has the 1902 marriage been rejected? have you actually got that cert, Chris?
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The 1902 marriage is rejected because on the 1901 census that Edith Buxton is living near Maidenhead with her future husband Penford and her middle initial is A not E. She is also the wrong age.
I have done a thorough look through for Wrenn-Jennings and Penfold-Jennings Marriages and only one volume, Sep. in 1946 was missing. However, I think there is another marriage, that's why i've put two marriages.... See marriage found below
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The 1902 marriage is rejected because on the 1901 census that Edith Penfold is living in maidenhead with her future husband and her middle initial is A not E. She is also the wrong age.
Which Edith is in Maidenhead in 1901- under what surname,and what reference number?
I hope you realise that death certificates aren't always 100% correct.The info is only as good as the person giving to to the registrar,because the person who knows the truth is the one who has just died. Ages can notoriously be a year or two(or more) wrong. So try to be a bit flexible and expect her to have been born around 1884 and not exactly IN 1884.
If you had the birth cert of one of those 1920 or 1923 Wrenn children ,it may tell you all you need to know. ;D
Carol
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Hi Carol, the Edith I'd like to reject was in Pangbourne, Berkshire:
Edith Buxton 30 London St Pancras Berkshire Pangbourne Entire Drapers Assistant
William Penford 20 Berks Maidenhead Berkshire Pangbourne Entire Waterman
Marriages Sep 1902
Buxton Edith Maidenhead 2c 932
Harris Florence Mabel Maidenhead 2c 932
Penford William Maidenhead 2c 932
Reed John Henry H Maidenhead 2c 932
The Edith with the correct b-day who lived the rest of her life in Eltham then Battersea then Croydon and on whose children's birth certificates says "Edith Evelyn" "Penfold, formerley Buxton" was:
1901 - RG13/ 463 Folio: 15; Page: 21 - Clapham
13, Brayburne Ave
Edward Buxton 50 Head Clerk / Civil Servant Kent, Greenwich
Emma Buxton 49 Wife Suffolk, Hasketon
Claude E Buxton 26 son Traveller (Fancy Box Trade) Brixton
Edith Buxton 17 dau Clapham
Walter Buxton 15 son Warehouseman Lace Trade Clapham
Elsie M Buxton 13 dau Clapham
Percy W Buxton 12 son do
Hilda Buxton 6 dau do
As she was "formerly Buxton" she married probably in 1916 or 1903:
Marriages Jun 1916
Penfold Edith Penfold Wandsworth 1d 1421
Coulston Margaret Muddle Wandsworth 1d 1421
Muddle Henry Coulston Wandsworth 1d 1421
Penfold Edward Penfold Wandsworth 1d 1421
Marriages Jun 1903
King Fanny Wandsworth 1d 1132
Moon Thomas Wandsworth 1d 1132
Penfold Edith Wandsworth 1d 1132
Penfold Henry Wandsworth 1d 1132
There is no marriage of a Mr Penfold to an Edith (Evelyn) Buxton in the FRC, I've done a thorough search there.
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So you havent got the certs for the alleged Penfold/Penfold marriage? No proof that in 1916 the Edith Penfold didnt actually marry the Henry Muddle, or in 1903 the Edith Penfold married Thomas Moon?
Need those certs methinks.
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FreeBMD has a birth of a Moon in Croydon, with mums maiden name Penfold - so likely that the Edith P married the Mr Moon, and that the Henry Penfold married Fanny King
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Hi, If this was the right Edith P then she was 17 in 1901, she would have had to have married a Mr.Penfold as a Buxton then by 1903 she is marrying as Penfold to a Mr.Moon?
Jennifer
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The 1916 marriage was Penfold to a Penfold though so the only explanation for me not being able to find the Buxton/Baxton (see Edith EMR Wrenn Baxton b. 1918) marriage is she changed her name before the marriage from Buxton to Penfold.
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Have you got the 1916 Penfold/Penfold marriage cert?
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I have got the certificate off my father, and I can see it does say in fact the husband as Richard William Jennings - my apologies for not checking this sooner. Could you find the marriage, as I would be interested to know the surname of the woman he married.
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Can you give us a bit more info Chris.
What date was it,where di it take place and if you have the certificate,why doesn't it say who he married...........I'm confused???
Carol
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Okay I've had my coffee and am more with it now 8)
You are not going to believe this but an Edith BUXTON married a Richard JENNINGS in Battersea in June 1943 ref 1d page 507.
No middle names were mentioned.
You can get the cert for £7 from http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/
I have worked my way backwards from 1953- to find this in 1943,and this is the only likely one.
I wonder if she never actually married any of the previous chaps,but just called herself by their surnames,or did she just decide to revert back to her maiden name to marry in wartime?
Carol
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Think you have just solved it! Well done! :D Off to have a coffee too now, see if it works for me!
Though I am interested to hear what cert it is that Chris has already for Richard Jennings, if not the one for this marriage.
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I think he might be referring to Edith's death cert?
Which I think he is now saying that his dad has and now does mention her 'hubby's' name.
I think ;D
Carol
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Oh ... I see!
"husband" as in who registered the death
Not "husband" as in groom at a marriage.
So (havnet got that coffee yet, so not that with it) looking at the very first post - where does the idea that Mr J died 1954-60 come from? Or is that a pure guess with no back up at all? He was alive in 1956 if he registered death, and was a Richard not an Albert/Alfred.
No room for guesses in this game!
Plenty of room for coffee, though.... ;D
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Yeah it was on the death certificate all along, the daughter registered the death and it says wife of Richard William Jennings. It says Edith Ellen Jennings which is odd. As I'd been told way back he was a Merchant Navy Officer. I heard that he didn't live that long as his dying solved a dispute with the daughter. I've ordered the 1916 marriage certifcate though now (see below).
I'm sure Edith called her children Wrenn even though she was called Edith Penfold formerly Buxton because he lived with her a brief time but after a few years they lived separately, he'd moved to weston super mare by the war and he died in 1945. As for Mr Penfold he might be one of the many WWI dead.
Ta very much finding the marriage, it saves me alot of time.
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Hi, there is a birth reg in 1884 in Oakham Leic. for an Edith Ellen Buxton?
Jennifer
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Do let us know when you receive the certs(and what they say) won't you Chris-and maybe we'll be able to make more sense of this family and help you further.
Carol
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The marriage in 1916 says:
27th April 1916
Name and Surname: Edward Penfold age: 41, condition: widower, rank or profession: flower hawker, residence at time of marriage: 73 Wardley Street, Wandsworth, father's name and surname William Penfold (deceased), rank of father: flower hawker
Name and Surname: Edith Penfold age: 40, condition: widow, rank or profession: flower hawker, residence at time of marriage: 75 Wardley Street, Wandsworth, father's name and surname Robert Smith(deceased), rank of father: house decorator
at the Register Office in the district of Wandsworth
In the presence of Joseph King and Fanny Forster
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It was a surprise reading that certificate, but i think i've figured it out ...flower hawker born Smith in 1875/76 then Penfold then Penfold again. Definitely not born 1882-4. (Edith's daughter knew Edith's age within a year i would say.)
There is a likely flower hawker aged 17 on the 1901 census, Edith Buxton, in Wandsworth, see copy on page 2 above. There was not a Buxton marriage to Penfold 1900-1920 when i looked at the FRC.
What do you think about the idea that Edith (having a 2 year old and a 4 year old) might have even become a Mrs Barclay in 1925 - see page 1?
If so she would have gone from: Buxton to Penfold (died in war?) to having her children with Wrenn (who definitely left her sometime 1923-1940 as he went off his other children said to Weston super mare) to Barclay and then to Jennings in 1942.
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You are not going to believe this but an Edith BUXTON married a Richard JENNINGS in Battersea in June 1943 ref 1d page 507.
You can get the cert for £7 from http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/
I wonder if she never actually married any of the previous chaps,but just called herself by their surnames,or did she just decide to revert back to her maiden name to marry in wartime?
I think Carol is right, she never married anyone before Richard Jennings.
Certainly this Penfold nee Smith marriage is a red herring! And if it is true she never married before Jennings, then Barclay is a red herring too.
Looks like the Buxton/Jennins cert is the next move, to see if she is a spinster...
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I think Carol is right, she never married anyone before Richard Jennings.
Certainly this Penfold nee Smith marriage is a red herring! And if it is true she never married before Jennings, then Barclay is a red herring too.
Looks like the Buxton/Jennins cert is the next move, to see if she is a spinster..
Yes definitely a red herring.......not your Edith at all I'm afraid.
But that's the nature of this game-a few false certs to find the real one eventually.
And yes I agree with Liz,the Buxton/Jennings cert would be the next move.
It will (we hope) say that she was a fairly elderly spinster ;D
Regards
Carol
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Before I order that cert, wouldn't the marriage just say widow, as there were a lot of Penfolds that died in the war from South London and i'm almost certain she married a Mr Penfold. Unless I suppose she was illigitimate and later took her father's name Penfold. Is that likely?
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Anything is possible - our task is to find out the facts!!
It will say widow if she HAD married previously, and then for some unknown reason reverted to her maiden name, but at present we are thinking she was most probably still single.
Either way the cert will help - no good assuming one or the other till we know.
IF it is spinster - then it is very straitforward, she never married any of the previous ones, just used their name for a bit and had a few children.
IF it does say widow, then we are back to the task of finding previous marriages, which so far has proved fruitless and lead us to believe she had not previously married.
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Please help, this side of my family has been really well covered up and was kept from me for a long time.
I am looking for the marriage of Edith E (previously unofficially Wrenn up to 1920s, Penfold from 1916 and previously Buxton from birth) who having married a Mr Jennings, died in Dec Quarter 1956:
Edith E Jennings 72 Croydon 5g p88 on 18/12/1956 in Mayday Hospital.
When was her marriage - it was in London I think as Mr Jennings was a Londoner. They married PROBABLY between 1930-1950.
I don't know his first name, but if you could find the death of a Mr Jennings who died between 1954 and 1960 in Croydon or Wandsworth it might help in your search as this is when he died I think. I think his name was Albert/Alfred.
I have the death certificate, she died in Mayday hospital and Edith's daughter registered it.
As Edith had children from a Mr Wrenn (but did not marry him as he stayed married to a different woman), there are four surnames she went by in her life - I wouldn't be surprised to find a fifth! e.g.
Marriages Mar 1925
Penfold Edith E Barclay Brentford 3a 239
Did an Edith E Barclay marry a Jennings?? or is there another marriage for an Edith E Penfold anyone can find after 1923.
any answers?
Chris
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Perhaps she never married any of the others?
Edith Buxton married Richard Jennings - Battersea June qtr 1943
Jennifer
Chris if you look back over this post this has all been found before.