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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Antrim => Topic started by: Hana on Thursday 10 July 08 05:16 BST (UK)
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Looking for information on the Browne's of Islandmagee. My Grandfather was born in Kilcoan and his family were master mariners. I think there is some link to a Bayview house.
My great grandfather is Samuel John Hill Browne born in 1894 in Mullaghdubh who married Ruth Phillips from Mochrum in Scotland.
Samuel John Hill Browne's father was Samuel Andrew Browne born in 1850, died in 1912. He married Ellen Jane Hawthorne born 1849 in Ballymuldrough, Islandmagee.
Ellen's parents were Arthur Hawthorne and Isabella Hill both of Islandmagee.
Any help would be great,
Thanks,
Hana
New Zealand
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Are you sure that Samuel John Hill Browne born 1894 is a son of Samuel Andrew Browne and Ellen Jane Hawthorne?
IGI lists 3 children for Samuel Brown and Ellen Jane Hawthorne: Andrew (1877), Abigal Heggan (1878) and Ellen Jane (1879)- see www.familysearch.org for details.
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Hi.
I had no luck with John Hill Browne's birth, but the details below may be useful, if you don't already know them.
Marriages.
1.
Samuel BROWN married Ellen Jane HAWTHORN, on the 9 Dec., 1875, in Islandmagee 1st Presbyterian Ch.,. Parish of Islandmagee. Marriage registered in Larne.
2.
John Hill BROWNE married Ruth Phillips, on the 20 July 1921, in the Registrar's Office, Larne.
3.
Arthur HAWTHORN married Isabella Hill, on the 18 Sept., 1848, in Islandmagee 1st Presb., Ch.
I don't know if this marriage is one of yours.
4.
James Hill married Margaret BROWN, on the 20 Oct., 1849, in Islandmagee 1st Presb., Ch.
Regards,
Dixie
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Hi everyone.
1911 Islandmagee There are 13 names for Browne one is,
Samuel Browne Master Mariner, Bayview, Mullaghduhh & 5 names for Hawthorne,
One is Jane one is Mary of Ballmuldrough.
Anthony
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Thanks for your help everyone.
To my understanding family search is missing 3 or 4 of the children of Ellen Hawthorne and Samuel Browne. There was at least 6 children based on my Grandfather and his sister's memory. But their branch emirgrated to Australia and appear to have lost contact with the family back in Northern Ireland.
My Aunt told me that there is a large family grave in Islandmagee so I guess that would confirm who's who in the family.
Thanks Dixie, I had rough dates for the marriages but nothing certain and definitely no places!
All the help is greatly appreciated :)
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Dixie,
I was wondering if you could confirm the marriage date for John Hill Browne and Ruth Phillips. To the families knowledge they were married in 1917 but there is nothing official that we have saying that. If the correct date is 1921 it means that my grandfather was born before they were married. Which would explain why John isn't listed on my grandfathers birth certificate though he has the last name of Browne. Rather interesting!
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Hi.
I rechecked the marriage date on the Emerald Ancestors website and it's the one they have recorded.
If you have a LDS Family History Centre near you, it may be possible to order the microfilm for Islandmagee 1st Presbyterian Church, if not, check-out the Dublin General Records Office website, www.groireland.ie/
They can supply a photocopy from the register of the event, birth, marriage or death, before 1922. The cost for a photocopy is 6 Euros, I suppose they would add postage to that. I don't know if you can order and pay online.
From 1922 onward you would need to apply to the GRO in Belfast.
Regards,
Dixie
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Thanks so much Dixie! I'll have to investigate getting a copy of the register.
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Hi Hana.
The link for the Dublin GRO, in my last posting, should work now, I stupidly put "ire" instead of "ie" at the end of the website address.
Emerald Ancestors has a lot of the surnames you are seeking, mentioned getting married in Islandmagee 1st Presbyterian Church. If you do a search, use the surnames with and without the "E" at the end.
Regards,
Dixie
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Hi
BROWNE JOHN HILL 1921 SAMUEL Antrim
PHILLIPS RUTH 1921 WILLIAM Antrim
http://www.ancestryireland.com/index.php
Samuel and William are their fathers names
Helena
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Hana,
You may also want to Google the history of Brown's Bay, Islandmagee. It may be a long shot but the bay could be named for your Brown(e) family.
Good hunting.
J.A.M.
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Hi Hana,
My mother was reared in that area and used to work in the Power station with a Thomasina Brown from Ferris's Bay Islandmagee - her husband was Norman. He would have been born in the 1930's. Islandmagee really isn't that big but does have an infamous sea faring history which you can see in lots of places, apart from new housing developments shooting up the original layout is still the same. The 1st Presbyterian church is over 400yrs old and its graveyard is about 250 yrs. I live near Larne so I'll try to pop over to St Johns 1st Presbyterian tomorrow or Sunday and see if there is a Brown/e plot, I'll also check for Hawthorne and Hill. Mum also has a full cemetery listing book for the New Islandmagee cemetery which she says she'll check for me, it opened in 1925. Fingers crossed.
June
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Hi June,
That would be great if you get the time. I have a Norman Browne in the the family tree but he appears to have been born around 1921 though that could easily be wrong. Don't know much else about him except his parents were Samuel Browne OBE and Charlotte Dagwell. I don't know what his wife was called. It would interesting to know if this is the same person as the Norman that your mother worked with.
Many thanks,
Hana
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Hi Hana,
I really am sorry but I haven't managed to get over to St Johns yet as the weather has truly been awful but in regards to the folk that you mentioned in your mail - they are buried in the New Cemetery in Islandmagee for which I have the listings for.
Grave B52-53
Browne
In loving memory of Charlotte Browne who died 6/4/1941 aged 52 years.
Captain Samuel Browne OBE born 18/1/1885, passed away 30/12/1951. Also thyeir youngest son Gordon E Browne LTCL died 10/2/1967 aged 34 years.
( Charlotte - married )
( Samuel - master mariner )
( Gordon - music teacher )
Elmdene, Cable Road, Whitehead
I promise that I'll send the other details when I can.
Happy hunting
June
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Hana
Cat Samuel Brown OBE married Charlotte Dagwell
father was Capt Charles Dagwell of Whitehead.
who died 1936 and worked for Ireland and Porters his father was Hugh and he had a son Hugh...a sea loving family ;D
Samuel worked for Elders and Fyffe
Children
Arthur married Mary Kane
Stanley married Mary McIlroy
Norman went to Canada
Buried in Islandmagee New
Thats all I could find
Steve
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Hi Hana,
I think I can help you with information on the Brownes of Islandmagee.
My father was Gordon Browne, who died in 1967. That would make John Hill Browne my great uncle.
I was aware that he had married someone called Ruth, and emigrated to Australia, but know few other details, except that he had a son called Jack who met up with my Browne uncles during WW2.
There were a lot of master mariners in the family. Andrew Brown (of Kilton Lane, Islandmagee) is the first I know of. He died at sea some time in the 1850s, leaving a widow Agnes (Nancy) Heggan (1830-1916), and two children - Samuel (1850-1912) and Agnes (1853-1909).
Samuel married Ellen Jane Hawthorne and lived at Bayview, Town Lane, Islandmagee where they had eleven children no less...
Andrew (1877-1960) - Abigail (b.1878) - Ellen Jane, called 'Nellie' on her tombstone (1879-1905) - Samuel (1883-1885) - Samuel (master mariner and my grandfather, 1885-1951) - Isabella ('Belle') (b.1881) - Arthur (another master mariner, 1886 -1931, who married Mary Kane as mentioned in a previous answer) - Agnes (1888 -1972) - Elizabeth Mary (1892-1974) - Sarah Hawthorne 'Sally' (1890-1985) - John Hill (1894 -1938).
My grandfather moved to Whitehead after marrying Charlotte Dagwell (from another seagoing family), and had four boys: Stanley (who married Primrose Wilson), Norman (born 1921, who did indeed go to Canada, but moved to New York around 1950. He is still living there, and is unmarried), Arthur (master mariner), and Gordon. Arthur died two years ago, the last Browne in Whitehead. He was unmarried.
Norman Brown from Ballylumford Power Station is no relation, although I believe the family surname was changed from Brown to Browne within the last 200 years. Also, Brown's Bay has no family connection, although I went swimming there a lot as a child!
The majority are buried in the old and new cemeteries in Islandmagee. Abigail is buried in Carrickfergus.
I'm sure we have lots more information to compare.
The old lady in the photograph is John Hill Browne's mother Ellen Jane Browne - nee Hawthorne (1849-1945), your great great grandmother.
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How exciting! I think you're my second cousin once removed (Jack's my grandfather).
We really don't know very much about the Irish side as my grandfather's family emigrated when he was about 4. Just odd bits that my grandfather has told us. I have a news paper obituary about Samuel Browne OBE who must be your grandfather? That my grandfather had kept and a picture of the Verbena which was where my great grandfather starting sailing with your grandfather (Samuel Browne). I know that there were possibly a couple of unmarried Aunts who lived in Islandmagee and died maybe in the 70's (Sally, Aggie and Lizzy?) who lived at "the big house" which I assume is Bayview. Does the house still exist?
I think the Australian Browne's and the Northern Irish Browne's didn't really have much contact once my grandfather and his parent's immigrated.
It's wonderfull to see a picture off Ellen - I don't think we have any pictures before their arrival in Australia so the whole family and their life is a bit of a mystery.
I would love to hear / see more!
Hana ;D
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Hi
That is exciting you have found each other, you both dont have a lot of post to date and to send a PM to each other a Personal Message to leave your email address which no one else will see you might need to have more posts.
I am not sure how many posts you need but I have found out you need a few to send a PM
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Hi Hana,
Great that you've seen my reply. Samuel Browne OBE is indeed my grandfather. He earned the OBE during the Second World War. His ship was sunk by a U-Boat in the Atlantic, he was then adrift in a life raft for some days. The ship (owned by Fyffes) was called the 'Aracataca'.
I hadn't known that your great-grandfather had earlier sailed with Samuel. Very interesting, especially as it was in the Verbena. I have an old painting of the ship (see the attached scan), and also a photograph of the crew. I don't know if John Hill Browne is among them. Maybe if you have a photo of him (I'd love to see it if you do!) you can compare. The crew photo comes from an excellent book called 'Islandmagee Seafarers - The Distinctive Maritime Heritage of East Antrim' by William Blair and Alicia St Leger, published by the Mid-Antrim Museums Service in 2005. It has a lot of information and photos of the Browne seafarers.
The unmarried aunts (Aggy and Liz) lived their entire lives at 'Bayview'. Right to the end it did not have electricity or running water. I think I remember they had a well at the back of the house. The house does still exist, in Town Lane, Islandmagee. I do have a photo of it, which I will find for you. Sally married quite late in life, to another famous Islandmagee sea captain, Alexander 'Minorca' Kane, and left 'Bayview', although she continued to live in Islandmagee.
I will let my uncle (Norman Browne) know that you've been in touch. He fondly remembers travelling to Bayview during the war to meet Jack Browne, who was on leave from the Australian Air Force. That is the only time they met.
It would be wonderful to hear more from you too!
David
Thanks for the advice Helena, much appreciated!
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Hi David,
Below (hopefully) is the picture of the Verbena crew that I've got. My great grandfather is the one in the back row on the left. I think this was pretty soon after he started at age 15. After looking at your photo I'm not sure if my Samuel (Jack's father) is in the 3rd row maybe the fourth one in from the left and it looks like your Samuel in third in from the left in the front in my photo. Though I think that the man in the front of my photo with the ring looks in some ways familiar - maybe related or just one of those people th look familiar.
Have you heard stories about the Spanish Armada somehow being connected to the family. I don't think that it is true but my Mum's convinced it is, though she's not sure how.
Isobel, Jack's sister, visited the relatives in Northern Ireland in the 70s and I think stayed at Bayview.
Grandad was in the merchant marines during the war, which fits with the Browne's and their sailing history, though I didn't know that he'd visited Bayview.
Hana
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Hi Hana,
Thanks for the great photo. My grandfather (Samuel Browne) is definitely third from the left in the front row. Very interesting to see his brother John Hill Browne there too. I'd never previously seen a photo of him and would love to see any others which you may have, as well as any information on his life. I have sent a print of it to Norman Browne in New York, who will be delighted to see a photo of his uncle for the first time.
The only other one of John Hill's brothers who I have a photo of is Arthur Browne (1886-1931), who was also a Master Mariner. See photo attached. He died at sea on Jan 8th 1931 en route home, and is buried in Islandmagee.
The Spanish Armada story is a bit of a myth as far as I've always understood, is it the one saying that black hair was introduced to Ireland by the shipwrecked Spanish sailors? I've never heard it applied directly to the Brownes, although I do have dark hair and so did by father and grandfather. My uncle was insistent that the Brownes originally arrived from Scotland, but I'm not sure when.
My mother can't remember Isobel visiting from Australia, and thinks it's unlikely that she stayed at Bayview, although she may have visited briefly. I have attached a photo of Bayview (which is still standing as far as I know). The people outside it are John Hill's sister Agnes Browne (who lived there all her life), and my father Gordon Browne. It was taken in 1963.
best wishes for now,
David
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Hi Hana,
I've come across two more Bayview photos. One shows your great great grandmother (and my great grandmother) Ellen Jane Browne, pictured outside the house. I've asked my mother for more details on Bayview, and she says that it had four bedrooms upstairs (no bathroom of course!). The electricity service did offer to connect it up to the grid, but our Aunts Aggy and Liz turned it down due to the cost (£200).
The second photo (from 1963) shows the view from Bayview. To the right is Blackhead lighthouse. The bay itself we always referrred to as 'the back shore'.
regards,
David
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Two more photos, which I hope will be of interest. The first one shows three of John Hill Browne's sisters - from left to right Agnes (Aggy), Elizabeth (Liz) and Sarah (Sally). They are pictured with their nephew (my uncle) Capt Arthur Browne, in 1958.
Below is a shot of Ellen Jane Browne and your great great grandfather Samuel Browne (1850-1912). The women of the household maintained a farm around Bayview while the men were away at sea, selling eggs and butter to visitors to Islandmagee, and at Carrickfergus market. Samuel had been a master mariner but retired early due to ill health. According to my Uncle Arthur, who as a child regularly visited his grandmother at Bayview, Samuel was never mentioned and no photographs of him were displayed at the house. It came as a surprise when the photo below appeared in the Islandmagee seafarers book, and we didn't know where it came from.
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Hi David,
The photos are very amazing - its so nice to put faces to the names on my tree and see where they're from. The view from Bayview is lovely. I've sent a copy to Mum who is at my Grandparents for Christmas and she's going to show my grandparents. I've only got one other one which is of Grandad, Isobel and their parents around the time they moved to Australia. When I get back from Christmas I'll scan it and put it up.
Do you know if Arthur Brown (Samuel Browne OBE's oldest brother) had an MBE? Grandad thought he may have but doesn't know what he got it for.
It's odd that Samuel was never mentioned and there were no photos. Though I guess its the same with Grandads father. It's rather sad that people seem to get lost in time. I wonder who would have had the photo. They'd have to be related to us in some way you'd think.
When Grandad was over in the war he went to a ball at Trinity College in Dublin with Gordon and Norman.
Hope you and your family have a great Christmas.
Hana
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Hana,
Look at www.irishmariners.ie website
It contains details of Irish merchant seamen in the period 1918-21 taken from the Board of Trade central index cards and is searchable
200 plus Islandmagee seamen are in there including Arthur,Andrew and John Hill Browne.
You can get copies of the index cards which include a photograph of the seaman from Southampton Civic Archives.
Details are on the website.
best wishes
ernestjames
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Had a look at 1911 census for the Browne family and there seems to be some confusion here.
1911 Mullaghdoo (Island Magee):
Samuel Browne 60 farmer
wife Ellen Jane Browne 61 married 35 years 11 children 9 living
daughters Isabella 29, Agnes 28, Sarah 20, Elizabeth 18.
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Antrim/Island_Magee/Mullaghdoo/188558/
1911 Balloo (Island Magee):
Annie Browne 60 widow married 31 years 7 children 7 living
sons James 27, Thomas H. 24, Samuel 21 (railway clerk), Charles 17
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Antrim/Island_Magee/Balloo
/188092/
The above Samuel Brownes are the only ones listed in Island Magee D.E.D. The age and details of the one in Mullaghdoo seem to be the Samuel who married Ellen Hawthorne and the younger Samuel in Balloo is the same age as Samuel John Hill Browne.
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The four Browne brothers from Bay View, Mulloughdoo were probably away at sea. Have you checked the seaman section on the 1911 census?.
According to the 1918 Board of Trade index cards the four brothers were
Andrew, b11/03/1877, nok Jenny Browne(w), Ballystrudder House, Islandmagee
Samuel, b17/01/1885 (not on website yet). nok Mrs Charlotte Browne (w), Islandmagee
Arthur, b 06/10/1886
John Hill, b12/06/1894
I suspect that John Hill may have changed his Forenames to Samuel John Hill later in life.
Samuel Browne, railway clerk, is 21 in 1911 which puts his birth around 1890
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Yes, you are correct about Samuel of Balloo being 21 in the census- I'd put 17 as his age but it searches a preset range rather than exact age.
Is there a seaman section on 1911 Irish census? If so it's not online yet (only Antrim, Down, Dublin, Kerry).
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Sorry.I was referring to the English 1911 census which should cover merchant seamen in English ports
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Thanks for all the research, some very interesting material which I've never seen before.
"1911 Mullaghdoo (Island Magee): Samuel Browne 60 farmer, wife Ellen Jane Browne 61 married 35 years 11 children 9 living, daughters Isabella 29, Agnes 28 (should read 23), Sarah 20, Elizabeth 18."
The two children who died were Samuel (1883-1884/5) who was still being talked about by his 95 year old mother on her deathbed, and Ellen Jane ('Nellie') (1879-1905) who died of Meningitis. The oldest daughter was Abigail (1878-?). Her husband was James McLernon, an engine fitter from Eden. She is buried in Carrickfergus.
Isabella remains the most unknown (to me) of the sisters ... until tonight I had never been able to find her birthdate, all I know is that she married a Tom McLernon and had two children, one of whom emigrated to Canada. I asked Sally, the last of the eleven children, back in 1984, and sadly she could not remember anything about her.
My grandfather Samuel Browne (b.18-1-1885) served in the merchant navy during both wars. His ship Aracataca was torpedoed in the Atlantic in 1940. Below is a newspaper clipping -which misspells both his name and the ship's name - describing his rescue.
("Annie Browne 60 widow married 31 years 7 children 7 living sons James 27, Thomas H. 24, Samuel 21 (railway clerk), Charles 17" is no relation as far as I know.)
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Hi Hana,
Another photo for you. This shows Samuel Browne around 1941 after his rescue in Canada - with his wife Charlotte and sons Stanley (in the army uniform), Norman (the second oldest, who joined the RAF soon after), and at the front Gordon (my father), and Arthur.
To answer your questions, I've never heard if Arthur Browne (Samuel Browne OBE's oldest brother) had an MBE. He had no children, but left a wife Mary Kane who died in 1976. She lived within a mile or so of Bayview.
It is odd that Samuel senior (1850-1912) was never mentioned and there were no photos. I have no idea where the photo in the Islandmagee seafarers book came from. It was credited to my uncle Arthur, but he was as surprised as me to see it.
"When Grandad was over in the war he went to a ball at Trinity College in Dublin with Gordon and Norman." I'll ask Norman next time I give him a call. I doubt if Gordon attended a ball, as he was only a child during the war. It may have been Stanley.
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The Annual Service for Seamen is being held at Islandmagee Methodist Church this Sunday 22 Feb at 7pm. To mark this event there is a photographic exhibition 'Faces from the Past' which show 60 Islandmagee seamen from the 1918-21 period. The four Browne brothers are there. Other surnames include Dick, Hawthorne, Hamilton & Kane plus 3 generations of the Nickle family from Magheramorne.
The exhibition is open from 2-6pm on Sat & Sun 21/22 Feb
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Hi David,
This is the only other picture I have of my Browne's taken around the time the moved to Australia. It's pretty cool that there is an annual service for seaman on Islandmagee - I'll have to try and be over there one year to go it it, it's a shame that it's so far.
Hana
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hi there Hana, im a local from islandmagee. live close to some Hawthorne that r distant relatives of yours. This site should get u everything u need. complete hawthorne family tree. even mentiones family members that emigrated to new zealand and australia.
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/derek.hawthorne/my%20family%20tree.html
hope this gets ur everything u need.
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I have transcribed the 1911 Census for Islandmagee, County Antrim. There are very many mistakes Transcribing the National Archives Dublin, although it was good to have what was done.
I have corrected most of the mistakes, although there were a few which I just could not make out what they were. The detail is on an EXCEL worksheet and takes about a minute or so to load. There is a link to download a viewer for those who do not have EXCEL installed on their computer. The link to my website :-
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/derek.hawthorne/
Good luck
Derek
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Hello Hana.
My name is Tommy Heggan, I live close to Islandmagee, Co Antrim and we have a common past. I note that this forum has not been used in a while and am asking if you wish to continue?
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Hi
Just for the record....my Dad, Thomas Kelly, a merchant seaman carpenters mate and on his first voyage,
was "lost" on the SS Aracataca when it went down to the bottom of the Atlantic in 1940 due to enemy
action (Ernst Mengerson,U-boat 101). Some crew were picked-up incl. Captain Browne from Islandmagee. I
was 14mths. My Mum, a widow as a result, was left with us both to support and what a hard time she had.
My Dad was 27...his promising life cut-short and our lives altered altered so negatively. Eileen Clarke
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Hello Hana.
My name is Tommy Heggan, I live close to Islandmagee, Co Antrim and we have a common past. I note that this forum has not been used in a while and am asking if you wish to continue?
Hi Tommy
I note that there were two Islandmagee Heggans at sea in 1920. Edward b1904, and Stewart b1900. Are you related to them?
ernestjames
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Hello Ernest James.
I haven't been checking this forum for some time because I thought that it had run it's course. The two names that you mention are unfamiliar to me but are possibly related through a different line. My father, born in 1903 served in the Merchant Navy during WW1 but his name was Thomas. If you are related to the two you mention, I need more ancestral background in order to try and make a connection.
Regards,
Tommy
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Hi Tommy
Thanks for your email. I've been working on a searchable database of Irish merchant seamen from the 1918-21 period. I found around 300 from the Islandmagee area which is a large number for the population at the time. Heggan is a very distinct surname which seems to be only found in Islandmagee. I found a steward? Heggan on the 1911 census at Gransha and his father was a sailor. No sign of an Edward though.
best wishes
ernestjames
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Steward is a mistranscripton- if you look at the original image it's Stewart (the t not properly crossed)-
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai001541787/
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Hi Aghadowey
I thought it looked like Stewart when I looked at the original image, but I didnt report the transcription error.
ernestjames
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My brother now owns the Browne house known as Bay View, Islandmagee.
We have organised an exhibition featuring 100 Islandmagee seamen photographs from identity cards from the Great War period. It will open next Saturday 7 July at 3pm and will be available for viewing by appointment after that for the rest of the summer. Come along and tell us what we've got wrong.
Surnames include Armour, Baird, Boyd, Browne, Busby, Cameron, Chism, Connolly, Dick, Donald, English, Ferguson, Ford, Gray, Hamilton, Hanvey, Hawthorne, Heddles, Heggen, Henderson, Hill, Hunter, Jackson, Kane (8 ), Kerr, Mann, McCallion, McCalmont, McIlwain, Niblock, Ross, Templeton, Wilson, Woodside and Wright.
If you want to come along please ring him, Andrew *, on * (within Northern Ireland) or contact me
ernestjames
* personal details removed in accordance with Posting Guidelines
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re Tommy Heggen ?
I am new to this and been following thread.
My name is Jim Hagan, born in Larne, now in Australia. Chasing family Hagan/Davey.
Great Grandfather was Thomas Higgins born Islandmagee abt 1861?
My Grandfather was John Hagan b 1899-1978. Due to literacy and spelling I believe many versions of Hagan/Heggan/Huggan are probably all related? Mothers side was Ezekiel Davey 1897 - 1955
Any assistance from yourself or any others much appreciated.
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Hi
I suggest you have a look at the 1901/1911 Census of ireland
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/search/
See if you can find any possible members of your family in County Antrim using the various surname variants.
One possible for Thomas Heggan is
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Antrim/Island_Magee/Ballystrudder/188271/
What do you think?
best wishes
ernestjames
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Thanks for response. I have done considerable search on Census and found. family in 1901 & 1911
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Antrim/Larne/Waterloo_Road/996642/
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Antrim/Larne/St__John_s_Place/196507/
Hence my comments re literacy and how pronounced.
Also found from maritime records where he was on sinking of Tara and POW
http://www.naval-history.net/xDKCas1915-11Nov.htm
http://search.findmypast.ie/results/world-records/prisoners-of-war-1914-1920?firstname=thomas&firstname_variants=true&lastname=higgins&eventyear=1916&eventyear_offset=2
I have traced his marriage to Emily Spence.
And believe he may have been a stoker on Queen Mary - Battle of Jutland.
There is a T Higgins listed as stoker
Also a son William http://larne-in-ww1.irishgenealogy.net/larne_war_mem_HIGGINS_W.html
I was trying to find Thomas Parents/family or tie in with other Higgins/ Heggan Islandmagee
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It looks as if you have been checking for maritime record matches for your grandfather John Higgins/Hagan born Islandmagee 1899 and his older brother Thomas born ca 1884.
How about these possible matches for John
http://www.irishmariners.ie/searchdatabase.php?srch_surname=hagan&srch_forename=john&srch_identityno=&srch_yob=1899&submit=Search
and from the following 1915 crewlists
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C14736719
I think that you need more information such as a birthplace to match Thomas Higgins with either the Tara or HMS Queen Mary. I suspect, for example, that the Thomas Higgins on Tara was born on Anglesey. Tara was originally the railway steamer ss Hibernia which seems to have retained a significant number of Anglesey men in the crew.
best wishes
ernestjames
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Thomas was born Islandmagee about 1861-62, Confirmed by Census records, note spelling Higgins and Heggins.
Family stories had that he was torpedoed 3 times. Actual sinking of Tara confirms 3 topedoes fired to sink her.
I am only guessing at Queen Mary, as timing seems to match and no mention of him later, and death of William lists Thomas as "late" in 1918.
When comparing various Hagan/ Heggen/Heggan census from Islandmagee with cemetery records, shows lots of "swapping" of spelling. I have cemetery records for Heggen, but both 1901 and 1911 census show as HAGAN. I was hoping someone has already identified this and worked out a solution?
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I was trying to find Thomas Parents/family or tie in with other Higgins/ Heggan Islandmagee
According to 1911 census Thomas & Emily were married c1883 and sure enough there's a marriage which fits-
Thomas Haggan, son of Thomas, 10 Oct.1882 Larne district to Emily Spence, daughter of James. You can view the full details on GRONI's website.
Since you have an idea of when and where Thomas was born have you looked for church records? baptism should lists names of both parents (hopefully will include mother's maiden name so that you can search for their marriage, other children, etc.).
Meanwhile there are several Will Extracts on PRONI which might tie into the family-
http://apps.proni.gov.uk/DCAL_PRONI_WillsCalendar_IE/WillsSearch.aspx
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I looked at possible seaman matches for Thomas Higgins, born 1861, using Islandmagee or Larne as his birthplace. I found the following:-
http://www.irishmariners.ie/searchdatabase.php?srch_surname=higgins&srch_forename=thomas&srch_identityno=&srch_yob=1861&submit=Search
"deceased" note appears to have been made in 1926. I checked the findmypast record.
There is a photo of this man in Southampton Archives.
There also appears to be a ww1 mercantile marine medal for the same man with a birth year of 1862 on the National Archives website which you will have to pay to download.
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_fn=thomas&_ln=higgins&_pl=larne&discoveryCustomSearch=true&_cr1=BT+351&_cr2=MT+9&_col=200&_dt=BW&_hb=tna
This looks a good match to me. What do you think? If you do download let me have the details as it may help in finding more information.
I have also located a Samuel Hagan born Larne 1900 who may be another son of Thomas
http://www.irishmariners.ie/searchdatabase.php?srch_surname=hagan&srch_forename=samuel&srch_identityno=&srch_yob=1900&submit=Search
What do you think? There is also a photo of this man in Southampton Archives.
ernestjames
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Ernest james
Thanks for your assistance, I had already located the irish mariners for Thomas 1861 sons and his. yes John (my G/F) and his younger brother Samuel are recorded.
I had located a record of marriage but it only listed 1/4 yr records for 1882, but did NOT show names of fathers - Thanks for that. Also not aware of it recording as Haggan.
Obviously there appears problems in interpretation of how names are pronounced and written, makes it difficult, I hadn't considered this spelling.
Thanks Jim
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Jim
I'm glad you got a match on irishmariners for Thomas and two of his sons, John and Samuel.
In my opinion its worth downloading the mercantile marine medal card for Thomas Higgins to see if it relates to your great grandfather. There may be additional useful information there.
best wishes
ernestjames
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Ernest james
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I had located a record of marriage but it only listed 1/4 yr records for 1882, but did NOT show names of fathers - Thanks for that. Also not aware of it recording as Haggan.
Obviously there appears problems in interpretation of how names are pronounced and written, makes it difficult, I hadn't considered this spelling.
Thanks Jim
I was the one who posted the marriage details. What you looked at was probably the civil registration index but GRONI will give exact date. I then used free search on another database to get the fathers' names.
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Sorry for thanking the wrong person, I am certainly new to the chat room format.
I found many sites which want to charge for access and fees would mount quickly when you don't know where your looking. So far I have been scanning through free access info.
I left Larne in 1967 and was only 9 yo so place names and areas create an extra challenge.
Thanks for your assistance.
When I tried to search for Father James and Spence last night, that birth came up in 1865 as for a male?
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Hi there, we seem to be researching the same family Hagan my nan is Emily Hagan b 1894 her mother is Emily Spence and father is Thomas Hagan your g grandfather john is Emily's brother, I have there births of all 15 siblings but I also having trouble tracing Thomas Hagan . My nan Emily married Charles Dawson in Larne 1915 my dad was born 1920 Charles is from Boston Lincolnshire where he took Emily back to, they then had more children Emily died 1956 in Boston , The Hagan family lived in Quay Lane Larne on there births they lived there for a while I found Thomas Hagan father his name is Thomas Heggan on the death he was born 1811 died in 1881 in Quay Lane his wife was Margaret don't know maiden name ,John Hagan b 21 Jan 1899 Factory Row that's your John i have his birth if you want it. anyway if you want any info feel free to ask Regards ladyface.
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Wonderful, I am not sure how this works but I am aware of the problems re literacy and spelling of Hagan/Heggan/Heggins. I have blamed illiteracy/ pronounciation.
re Margaret, I believe she was Hamil.
On tracing Thomas Higgins, GGF, a cousin has located a document signed by a Navy Minister which claimed this was his parents.
How do we contact each other for more info?
Jim
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Hi Jim, I can see we are not allowed to send personal messages, do you us Ancestry.com if so I have a family tree on there, called "Harvey-Dawson family tree" if you search for Thomas Haggan 1862 Larne Ireland you should find my tree as there is a photo on his profile, then you can message to me on there, I have a big tree lol there is a nice picture of them all on there if not will have to think of something else shame we can't send personal messages only just found this page the other day. Regards Jen.
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Sorry no access to Ancestry.com
I access most via hotmail
I only have record of 12 chidren Thomas/Emily – no copy birth certs
Yes problem tracing Thomas m Emily Spence, I have b 1857, but failed to locate record of death. Newspaper cuttings 1918 refer to late Thomas?
Also confusion re his son Thomas b 1884 d 1953 m Dorothy Eliza ???.
They also had a son Thomas unknown b, d 1943 seaman RN Seaman LT/JX 189988.
Records I locate show Emily m Dawson as Higgins Larne 1915?
Most of family at time refered to as Higgins
What was your fathers name? Was he born Larne.
I haven’t located any ref. Emily Dawson/Hagan d 1956 Boston Lincolnshire?
Are you aware of her younger brother Samuel b 1900 d 1964 also went to Boston Lincolnshire?
TryJfhagan
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Hi Jim, I have all of the births and Thomas an Emily Wedding , they had twins in 1901 and lost a baby too , I will try and give you a link that my help you first I will give you some dates ,here we go , Thomas Haggan and Emily Spence got married 10 Oct 1882 in Larne they had a child in 1882 before they got wed that year his name is Robert James Hagan Spence b 11 Jul 1882 no father on it but must be Thomas as it as Hagan in name , next child is Thomas Heggin b 22 Nov 1883 in Quay Lane notice a different spelling for him ,next Lizzie Heggin b 10 June 1885 Quay Lane next,
Maggie Hagan b 1887 but died 12 Dec 1899 in Factory Row next Daniel Hagan b 12 Dec 1888 Ballydown Islandmgee next William Hagan 3 Oct 1890 Ballydown Islandmgee next Agnes Hagan 7 Marc 1892 Ballydown Islandmagee next this one is my grandmother Emily Hagan 3 Mar 1894 Ballydown Islandmegee next Henry Hagan 16 May 1895 Bellydown next Ann Jane Hagan 12 Oct 1896 Bellydown next Ellen Hagan 25 Jan 1898 Bellydown next this is your John Hagan 21 Jan 1899 Factory Row next Hugh Alfred Hagan 9 Apr 1900 Larne Workhouse now on his records for Army he is down as Samuel don't now why he did that but it say on record next Maggie Hagan 19 May 1901 Factory Row one of a twin other one George Hagan 19 May 1901 Factory Row that's them all I'm going to try to give you a link to get them for free if it works
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/civil-search.jsp try this hope it works Regards Jen.