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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => London & Middlesex Lookup Requests => London and Middlesex => England => London & Middlesex Completed Lookup Requests => Topic started by: dog rose on Monday 07 July 08 15:42 BST (UK)
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I am trying to find the birth record of Elizabeth Willis who was born in Islington between 1869-1871. As I haven't had any luck with certificates that I have ordered, I have decided to go to London to see if I can have any luck actually going through the Parish records. My problem is which Parish? I presume Islington was divided into several parishes and I wonder if some kind person could tell me what they were and where I am likely to find the records.
The only information I have on Elizabeth is from her wedding certificate. She married Alexander Joseph Turpie on 5.12.1896 at Childs Hill, Hendon. Her address was given as 18 Keller Street, Kentish Town, St Pancras. Her occupation was as an upholsterer. Her father name was David Willis, deceased. pianoforte maker. I would love to find out who her Mother was.
Many thanks
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have you found her on the 1871/81 census ?
I cant see her on the 1881 - nor a David W, Pianoforte Maker, so he may have died when she was very young ... ???
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Hi
Who were the witnesses on her marriage certificate - could they have been relatives?
Casalguidi :)
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I have only found a possiple on the 1881 census. It is Lizzie Willis, visitor to the home of Janet Deas, widow, 42 College Street, Camden Town. William Deas was a witness at Elizabeth's wedding. Janet came from Scotland so I am wondering if Elizabeth's family came from there as well.
The other witnesses at the wedding are relatives of her husband, which I am aware of.
Thank you
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Assuming that you are looking for Church of England parishes Islington had four in 1860.
Holy Trinity Cloudsley Square
St John Upper Holloway
St Mary
St Paul Canonbury
These must not of course be confused with the civil parishes (or districts) used for BMD registrations and censuses of which there were twelve. See
http://www.ukbmd.org.uk/genuki/reg/districts/#I
David
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Sorry I forgot.
The parish registers should be at the LMA (London Metropolitan Archives) and you will of course be looking for a baptism.
David
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I have only found a possiple on the 1881 census. It is Lizzie Willis, visitor to the home of Janet Deas, widow, 42 College Street, Camden Town. William Deas was a witness at Elizabeth's wedding. Janet came from Scotland so I am wondering if Elizabeth's family came from there as well.
The other witnesses at the wedding are relatives of her husband, which I am aware of.
Thank you
Two of Janet Deas' sons were pianoforte makers in 1881, which may be a further indication of a link with Elizabeth's family (given her father's occupation).
The 1881 reference is: RG11/207/36/19
Anna :)
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Elizabeth Willis (single, 20, upholstress) was still boarding with Janet Deas at 120 College Place, Camden Town, St Pancras in 1891 - her birthplace given as London St Pancras:
RG12/130/26/46
Anna :)
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Interesting that in 1871, the Deas Family had an 11 month old 'Elizabeth Carter Deas' .... who has no Birth Index, but the son Hugh does !
RG10/232; Folio: 24; Page: 41 - Pancras ... Camden Town
I wonder - whaddja fink Anna :P
Also, wonder what Mr Deas name was ....
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Interesting that in 1871, the Deas Family had an 11 month old 'Elizabeth Carter Deas' .... who has no Birth Index, but the son Hugh does !
I wonder - whaddja fink Anna :P
Hmmmm... yes, odd that she's born in Finsbury when all the others were born St Pancras. And I wonder whether she's really a daughter of 44 yr old widow Janet (as she's said to be...)
Anna
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So: when was Janet Deas widowed?
Per 1861 her husband was David Deas aged 33 (b abt 1828) Scotland
RG9/116/55/31
So this looks like his death:
David DEAS aged 41, Dec 1869 West London 1c 22
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Well, well, Mr Deas was indeed a David .... - do you think that Lizzie was doing the oft-used trick to hide illegitimacy ?
1861- RG9/116; Folio: 55; Page: 31 - Camden (still College Street)
Lithographic Printer (which the lads were in 1871, befor taking up the Pianoforte in 1881 )
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The plot thickens: didn't put 2 and 2 together regarding Elizabeth Carter Deas, the age would be right. A very interesting thought! Are you saying that Lizzie changed her surname? In which case where do I go from here. HELP!
I have been trying to find the connection between Elizabeth and The Deas as she spent a long time with them.
William Deas was a witness at her wedding but as yet I haven't managed to connect him with the home of Janet Deas.
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Hi
Doesn't solve the problem but there is an obituary
Glasgow Herald Oct 12th 1869
42 College Street West Camden Town, london 7th inst
David Deas Lithographic Printer age 41
late of Edinburgh
Rosie
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Ref William Deas - witness.
Well, theres a William b1870 in Marylebone ..
but this has to be more than a coincidence ..
1871 - RG10/199; Folio: 45; Page: 32 - Pancras
151, Grove Street
William E Deas 36 Head PIANOFORTE MAKER born Scotland
Jane C Deas 26 Wife Scotland
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1881 - RG11/223; Folio: 6; Page: 5; - Pancras, Kentish Town
33 Leverton St West Side
William Deas 47 Head Pianoforte Maker Edinburgh
Jane Deas 37 Wife Blairathol
Elizabeth Deas 9 dau London
Robert Deas 6 son London
William Deas 2 son London
John Dear 2 mons son London
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Hi
IGI has a marriage for a David Deas and Janet Fraser 17th December 1849 at Edinburgh
freebmd has a birth reg for Elizabeth Fraser Deas June qtr 1871 Pancras 1b 30
Rosie
added I think this Elizabeth is more likely to be William and Janes daughter
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Wow, what a lot of information to take in!
Any idea where the name Willis comes from if we think that Elizabeth is in fact a closet Deas?
Rosemary
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No idea about Willis - ::)
I'm trying to see if David (c1828) and William (c1834) were brothers - Davids eldest lad Robert was born Westminster 1Q1851, and on the 1851 census they are transcribed 'Dear', altho mum is Harriet, not Janet...
but I cant find William before 1871 at the moment ....
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Thanks for looking
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freebmd has a birth reg for Elizabeth Fraser Deas June qtr 1871 Pancras 1b 30
Rosie
added I think this Elizabeth is more likely to be William and Janes daughter
Sorry I added this without checking later posts ???
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Let that be a lesson for you :P
Why cant I find that pic of my dog ..... :(
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I would look for a parish church in St. Pancras where the Deas children were christened - son David appears to have been christened in St. Pancras (on the IGI) - so you could try and find the later baptisms and see if she was christened in the same place.
A possiblity is that the father was actually the son David, who was 18 years old in 1871, given the surname 'Willis' on the certificate so that it would match the surname Elizabeth was using. I can't spot son-David in later records - can anybody place him?
(There is a family living at Rochester Terrace in 1881, near to College Street I think, headed by Henry Willis, organ builder, daughter Edith, 30, apparently did not marry and is still in Pancras in 1901, as a pianoforte teacher. They are also there in 1871).
Janet Deas probably died in 1908, aged 83 - might be worth looking to see if she left a will.
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I thought I would just add an update. I now believe that the Elizabeth Willis I am looking for is in fact Lizzie Willis Carter, born 20.5.1870 at 96 Barnsbury Road, Islington West. Father Henry Thomas Carter, a pianoforte maker, mother Susan Carter, formally Willis.
I cannot find a marriage as yet between Henry and Susan; in fact in 1861 Henry appears to be married to Roda (I am looking for a death).
I have found a Susan Carter who dies in Jun-Sept 1870 (have to get certificate) aged 20. I am wondering if Henry then gave the baby to Janet Deas.
I will have to try and find out when Henry died and if he made a will. I would be grateful on any information on how I go about that.
Rosemary
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Interesting - thanks for updating :)
I cannot find a marriage as yet between Henry and Susan; in fact in 1861 Henry appears to be married to Roda (I am looking for a death).
Her name does look like Roda in 1861 - but perhaps she is in fact Rosa?
Marriage
Henry Thomas Carter
Rosa Brecks
on same page, Jun 1861 Pancras 1b 47
If this is them and they really were married, they must have been very newly married as the census was taken on the night of 7-8 April 1861.
Anna :)
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Rosa's still alive in 1871:
RG10/3296/41/10
Nether Broughton, Leicestershire
William Brex* Head Widr 69 Parish clerk Leicestershire Nether Broughton
Rosa Carter Daur Mar 35 Piano Forte Maker's Wife Leicestershire Wartnaby
*The family name is also spelt Brex in 1841: HO107/593 bk 11 f4 p4
And her likely death:
Rosa CARTER aged 35, Sep 1871 Pancras 1b 21
Anna :)
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Marriage
Henry Thomas Carter
Rosa Brecks
on same page, Jun 1861 Pancras 1b 47
If this is them and they really were married, they must have been very newly married as the census was taken on the night of 7-8 April 1861.
IGI has this marriage, which shows that they were indeed very newly married when the census was taken:
Rosa BRECKS
Henry Thomas CARTER
3 Apr 1861 Old Church, St Pancras
Anna :)
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An earlier marriage which may or may not be the same Henry (also IGI, extracted):
Henry Thomas CARTER
Mary Ann WOOD
1 Apr 1860 Old Church, St Pancras
Modified: Probably not the same Henry as there's a couple matching this description in Plumstead in 1871, 1881, 1891.
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The Henry Thomas Carter who died in Holborn in 1877, aged 42, could be the same one?
I managed to find 96 Barnsbury Road in 1871:
RG10/254 folio 64 page 35 (and onwards).
George Sheer (or Speer?), 31, school master b. Walworth
Eliza, 29, b. Brighton
Walter H, 3, b. Islington
next page
Joseph Chattell, 38, warehouseman, b. Islington
his wife Mary, 31, b. Stoke ? Clare
also
James Skinner, 32, tinman?, b. Bristol
wife Lydia J M, 30, b. Bloomsbury
Lydia A, 5
Margaret, 1
(both b. Islington)
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Sorry, I misread Roda for Rosa.
If Roda died in 1871 she would still have been married to Henry and hence my Lizzie Willis Carter would have been illegitimate.
I have sent off for both Roda and Susan's death certificates.
Rosemary
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A detailed map of London Parish boundaries for 1877 is on MAPCO website, include Islington from Stoke Newington down
http://archivemaps.com/mapco/parish/parish.htm
Regards
David
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Many thanks for details of the map. I have looked at it and found it extremely interesting; it will help me in many different ways.
Rosemary