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General => Armed Forces => World War Two => Topic started by: seahall on Saturday 05 July 08 22:41 BST (UK)
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Hi All
A friend's father flew in WW2 with 189 Squadron Bristol Blenheims.
This photograph was with his fathers belonging.
Can anyone claim him or say more about rank etc.
T.I.A.
Sandy
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Just a bit more to add.
Looking at his father's war diary it has dates that maybe this
other person was involved with.
Shot Down Chebourg 1941
Dulag-Luft 1941
Stalag 1xc 1941
Stalag Luft 111 1942
etc.
Sandy
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Hi Sandy
Whoever that man is he is not 189 Squadron if he was shotdown in 1941 as 189 was disbanded in 1918 and not reformed until 1944. And it never flew Blenheims, it flew Lancasters. It was formed at RAF Bardney, then moved to RAF Fulbeck, and then ended its days back at Bardney in 1945.
The stripes indicate he is a Sergeant (by 1941 this was lowest rank of aircrew, next being Flight Sergeant but I don't see a crown above the stripes). The O with wing indicates Observer which does place him pre-1942, when the role was spilt between Navigator (N and wing) and Air Bomber (B and wing)
K
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BTW, you don't mean 139 Squadron by any chance, do you?
K
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Hi Kyt
That was stupid of me.
It seems to be a sign in front of a group of men rather than a squadron number.
I made the wrong assumption.
Maybe a photograph of when his father was a P.O.W.
I will leave it until I have time to read his war diary as obviously
I do not know enough information at the moment and may glean more.
Thank you for the information you have listed. Much appreciated.
Sandy
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Hi Sandy
An explanation of the names for the POW camps from the TNA
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/RdLeaflet.asp?sLeafletID=303
The following abbreviations and descriptions only apply to German PoW camps: Stalag (Stammlager), although not always the case, a camp for NCOs and enlisted men; Oflag (Offizierlager), a camp for officers only; Stalag Luft (Stammlager Luftwaffe), theoretically a camp for Air Force Officers administered by the Luftwaffe; Dulag (Durchgangslager), a transit camp where captured aircrew were processed and interrogated before being sent to a permanent camp.
Wonder if he was still at Stalag Luft III in March 1944 as it was the camp where the "great escape" happened.
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Certainly looks like a hut photo. I've been looking at that photo for some time and am getting annoyed with myself because I'm sure I've seen that man with the beard before (but just can't remember where :( )
If you care to share a name we can check details of squadron, loss etc
K
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Hi Spof
Thanks for that very informative.
Kyt
His name was William Douglas Barker.
Sandy
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W D Barker Serial Number 951051
21 Squadron
Blenheim V6398 shot-down over Cherbourg and crashed nearby, 10th July 1941.
Took off at 10.40 from Watton to bomb the Cherbourg Docks.
Squadron Leader H J C Tudge PoW Interned in Camps 7C/L3, PoW No.1621
Sgt C G Penn PoW Interned in Camps 9C/L6/357 PoW No.39258
Sgt W D Barker PoW interned in Camps L6*/357** PoW No.39292
* Heydekrug
**Kopernikus
POW camp lists normally indicate the last camp that a POW was in
K
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Hi Kyt
Thank you for that information.
Can you tell me what the source was please.
Sandy
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Initially found him listed in Footprints on the Sands of Time: RAF Bomber Command Prisoners of War in Germany 1939-45 by Oliver Clutton-Brock.
Then RAF Bomber Command Losses Vol 2 by Chorley for the details.
K
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Thanks Kyt. :)
Much appreciated.
Sandy
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Hi
Found out a bit more information.
Cyril Penn and John Tudge were William's crew members.
He flew in the 18 and 21 Squadrons.
Not sure if anything else can be found out but if so would much appreciate it.
Sandy
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Herbert John Charles TUDGE 42576
Not a lot more I can add except that he joined up around the time of the outbreak of the war. His rank of Squadron Leader sounds like it was a temporary one as his official gazetted one was Flight Lt. He survived the war as a POW, and was on the reserve until the 1950s.
As for the others I haven't any other info but it would be worth asking Kew for copies of the ORBs for the two squadrons, which would show when they joined the squadrons, and the missions they went on.
K
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Thanks Kyt again.
For your expertise and reply. Much appreciated.
Sandy
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Sandy,
Hope you are still watching this. The chap with the beard (sitting) is Robert William McDonald (That is where you have seen this picture Kyt) who was my Father's W/Op/gunner. If you have the rest of the picture, there is a good chance that my Father and his Nav. are also on it.
Tudge, Penn and Barker flew with my Father on circus 27 whilst they were with 18 Squadron. My Father was with 139 Squadron.
My Father was shot down on 1st July and these three guys on 10th July. They followed the same POW camps and l can give you a certain amount of information based on my own research if it helps.
Regards,
Nick
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Hi Nick.
Welcome to Rootschat. :)
Any information would be very much appreciated.
Not sure if I have any more folk on the photograph, but will
look it out in the next couple of days if that is okay.
Thank you for replying.
Sandy
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Just a little explanation regarding dates for P.O.W. Lists.
The entry for Luft 6 is dated as of September 1944.
The one for St. 357 is for 30th March 1945 so perhaps he was on one of the 44-45 Winter Marches.
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Typically, following capture, these would have been the dates of transfers as per my Father. Sgt Barker would have been about 10 days behind in the early camps. Have you seen Sgt. Barker's POW liberation questionaire which would explain this?
Dulag Luft – 6th July 1941
Stalag IXc, Bad Sulza - 10th (ICRC 14th) July 1941 to 29th April 1942.
Stalag Luft III, Sagan in the East Compound – 1st May (ICRC 30th April) 1942 to 18th June 1943.
Stalag Luft VI, Heydekrug, Barrack C5 – 20th ( ICRC 14th) June 1943 to 18th July 1944. Stalag Luft VI closed at this time with the advancing Russians on their way.
Stalag 357, Thorn, Poland – 19th (ICRC 18th) July 1944 to 8th August 1944. (Later this camp became known as Stalag XXA).
Stalag 357, Fallingbostal (Part of Stalag XI-B) – August 1944 to 7th April 1945.
8th May, The last of the POW’s evacuated from Fallingbostal are liberated on this day.
I know l have other details on Sgt. Barker at home so will see what l can find.
Regards,
Nick
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Sgt W D Barker seems to have had promotion whist a P.O.W. as he is listed as W.O. in 1944 and 1945.
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Established through Footprints that his POW number is 39292. He is therefore listed as being at Fallingbostal in hut C5.7.
The promotion was not unusual and they would have tried, if time allowed, to move him to an Officers Camp (Stalag Luft 3 again) but times were a little hectic. My Father received his promotion on 2nd May 1943 and was not moved on.
On this basis, l beleive that he was evacuated from Fallingbostal in August 1945 or remained there in hospital or hiding to avoid the march North.
Regards,
Nick
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Nick there is a very good Camp History for Luft 6 which is over 160 pages and very informative.
"A" compound appears to have been opened in June 1943 and by Oct was full so K compound was opened. The same month 80 Volunteers were tranfered to Luft 1 to serve as Batmen to the Officers.
Hut A12 was used to house known trouble makers and failed escapers.
During the Winter March there were several P.O.W. killed by a strafing Allied Aircraft at Gresse.
A list of Casualties was compiled by W.O. Mogg.
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Nick wrote,
"The promotion was not unusual and they would have tried, if time allowed, to move him to an Officers Camp (Stalag Luft 3 again) but times were a little hectic. My Father received his promotion on 2nd May 1943 and was not moved on."
In my father's case (who was in the same camps) he recieved his commission shortly after being shot down in September of 1943. He was not moved to Stalag Luft III until January 1945, just 5 days before Stalag Luft III started the Winter March.
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Hi All.
Thank you for the extra information.
It is brilliant.
I will have to read his diary and see if any thing matches.
Thanks again.
Sandy
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Nick I have this photograph also.
Sandy
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Hi Again Nick.
I have been talking with Stephen today William Douglas Barker's son.
Have you seen Sgt. Barker's POW liberation questionaire which would explain this?
He does not know anything about his father's liberation questionaire.
Is this available to view anywhere please or can you direct me to the
source.
He contacted the Lost Bombers site today and wrote a short story of
how his father came to be a P.O.W.
If you would like to contact Stephen, just let me know.
Sandy
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Oh I forgot Nick.
Stephen said his father started the march in April 1945.
Sandy
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April 1945 would be Fallingbostal, Stalag Luft 3 was earlier and l will get you a copy of his Liberation Questionaire from Kew.
I have sent you a message with my E Mail address on it so contact can be more direct but l will also post other info. here for reference for others.
Regards,
Nick
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Thank you so much Nick.
I am extremely grateful for your assistance with this.
I have sent you my e-mail address as I have all Steve's
information having done his tree. :)
Sandy
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Sergeant W.D. Barker is noted in the Roll of Honor I transcibed for the Town.
July 18th 1941
"A Telegram to Stan Barker,
of 44 Norman Road, Northampton,
received this
week, stated that
his son, Sergeant
W.D. Barker,
of the R.A.F.,
is missing from
a recent opera-
tional flight.
Sergt. Barker,
who was appren-
ticed as a brick-
layer with
Messrs A.P.
Hawtin and Co.
volunteered for
the R.A.F. st
the outbreak of
war. He gained
rapid promotion
and became wireless operator and
air-gunner. He was educated at
Kettering Road Intermediate
School.
His Mother died some three
months ago."
Sandy
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I would just like to say a huge thank you to ADM199
who has e-mailed me the information for W D Barker.
Greatly appreciated, I am sure Stephen will be delighted.
Sandy
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Not a problem Sandy as I had the File on the desk in front of me.
Brian
I would just like to say a huge thank you to ADM199
who has e-mailed me the information for W D Barker.
Greatly appreciated, I am sure Stephen will be delighted.
Sandy
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I would just like to say a huge thank you to ADM199
who has e-mailed me the information for W D Barker.
Greatly appreciated, I am sure Stephen will be delighted.
Sandy
I too would like to thank ADM199 for sending me information on another matter. A true Gent.
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Dear Sandy,
could it be possible that you still are in touch with Stephen Barker after all these years since the last post on the subject related to his father and his crew? I'm a French historian and am working on the story of the day they were shot down near Cherbourg. Your help would be more than appreciated if you could get me in touch with him.
Best regards from Normandy,
Mickaël Simon