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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Berkshire => England => Berkshire Lookup Requests => Topic started by: jules2465 on Friday 04 July 08 20:50 BST (UK)
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I am looking for James Edward Sime born around 1844 in Windsor Berkshire. Both he and his father were carpenters. his father's name was also James Edward Sime. If anyone has access to the 1851 census that could look this up for me I would appreciate it.
Thanks
Julia
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Hello Julia,
I have had a look on the Berks FHS transcript for 1851 Berkshire and there is no James Sime or similar born Windsor (or anywhere else) on it.
Yours
Vicwinann
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Thank you for looking... I appreciate it :). He was born there in 1843-44 so maybe they moved before the 51 census.
thanks again.
Julia
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Hi Julia,
on doing a general browse of all censuses your James E Sime b 1844 Windsor, a carpenter only shows up on 1901
RG13; Piece: 100; Folio: 107; Page: 16
which seems to indcaite mistranscriptions etc.
There is a daughter Annie m Johnson 16 yrs plus younger Sime children- second marriage for Annie (wife)?
Also just noticed that in another post you have him on 1891 but the only 2 who come up for b 1844ish are born Scotland. ???
Do you have him in all other censuses?
best wishes
heywood
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found him as Seine in 1891 but no others.
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James has proven to be quite a challenge for me. He was married twice. Once to Jane Withers in 1867 who later died and then he was married to Annie Johnson (Prince) who was also a widower in 1887. I have several birth and marriage certificates all naming him James Edward(s) Sime or Sims. I just recently sent away for a birth certificate that might be him ... the date is right but the name is James Edwards Syme born in Eton Berkshire, which is close to Winsdsor so I'm giving it a shot. Haven't received it yet.
All of my relatives I am in contact with state that they remember their parents etc. claiming they had Scottish heritage but no one has the proof.
My grandmother was Florence Maud Sime who is the daughter of James and Annie.
Thank you for helping me with the search :)
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Found them as Smith in 1871 Reigate !
Doesnt really help with his origins, but does show he was fairly consistant with his PoB..
1871 - RG10/831; Folio: 38; Page: 17 - Reigate Foreign
Earlswood Road, near the 'Station Inn'
James E Smith [sic] 27 Head Carpenter Berks, Windsor
Jane Smith 25 Wife Scotland, Dundalk
Edward C Smith 3 son Middx, Brompton
Walter F Smith 1 son Surrey, Reigate
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Ah well - I was looking for Charles Edward - just to start with - never mind Sime/Seine/Syme/Sim .... SMITH ::)
The birth certificate sounds as good as anything up to now :D
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Think so - 1881 is a real stunner - given there should be at least 3 kids to search on, altho not sure if Jane is still around.... ::)
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wow... how did you manage to find them as Smith... at first look it doesn't seem like the right kids but they had a son Edward Charles which certainly fits and also a son I know as Alfred which could be the second... they also had a daughter Jessie who was born in Reigate... amazing... thank you so much :)
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1891 has son as Charles Edward but going off 1871 there is this:
1881 11/83/82/11
Marlborough Rd Board School Chelsea
Edward C Smith 13 yrs nephew scholar b Middlesex West Brompton
Walter F Withers head 33 yrs school keeper b Ireland
Mary Withers 37 yrs school keeper b Cambs Witchford
Frederick W Withers 2 yrs b Chelsea
William C Withers 6 months b Chelsea
at first wasn't sure but the name Withers seals it I think. Perhaps Jane has died by now.
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I found a death record for Jane in 1886 and he remarries in 87 (no point in wasting time I guess) I'll have to check my records from home to see what the birth dates were for Charles and Alfred but I'm guessing Frederick could be alfred... I've seen that name before I think. I believe Walter may have witnessed one of the records I have too.. .I'll check tonight when I get home... funny that it's Smith again. Thanks for the info :)
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According to 1891 Alfred was born 1875 so wouldn't be him in 1871.
Re: Jane (1871) Dundalk is Ireland so that would tie in with Walter Withers being born Ireland.
Having said that can't find James or Jane in 1881 :'(
sorry- Frederick in 1881 is a Withers- I have amended the post.
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Good stuff ! :D
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I know that you are not descended from Jane Withers but it is interesting that in 1871 RG10; Piece: 82; Folio: 52; Page: 27, Walter is a schoolmaster and that their parents and siblings were not born in Ireland- must have just been Walter and Jane. ;)
1861 has her born Dublin and her father is a carpenter and Chelsea Pensioner which explains their Irish births.
Hey The Newfster- look what I found ;D ;D ;D and will post in full even though you can all access it!
1881 RG11; Piece: 79; Folio: 20; Page: 33
32 L Sloane Street Chelsea
J E Smith mar 38 yrs carpenter b Windsor
J Smith wife 34 yrs b England
W Smith son 11 yrs b Surrey
J Smith daur 9 yr b Surrey
A Smith son 6 yrs b Middx. Chelsea
how good is that :o
I am so pleased - they were obviously in their 'tell 'em nowt' ,mood at the time of census.
heywood
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now I don't want to go off at a tangent but.. there is a James Smith b 1845 in Windsor - parents James and Eliza. James is a Painter and Galzier though.
1851 HO107; Piece: 1695; Folio: 531; Page: 44
1861 RG9; Piece: 33; Folio: 81; Page: 22 hs the family- minus young James though living in Chelsea - dad is a journeyman painter.
The family are living in camera Square in 1871 and dad still a painter. Do you have an address for James from marriage certificate?
This James is possible the one who is a house servant at a pub in Croydon in 1861 and (being creative here) it is next door to a builders and only 11 miles from Reigate where they are in 1871.
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you guys are amazing... I wonder why all of a sudden they are Smiths??? then back to Sime. I don't get that. I can see them making a mistake one year but two times in a ten year span... that is very strange... and also with Charles being with his Uncle and also called Smith. Any ideas?
Jane was actually born in Chelsea I think... I have a birth statement for her but I never sent away for the record which I should probably do. That's very confusing too as she keeps coming up with different birth places. the big mystery is still James father. As soon as I get the birth certificate I sent away for, assuming it's the right one, I may have some clues.
thanks again so much for all your help. ;D
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I was just modifying my message re james Smith - there is a Surrey connection between 1861 and 1871.
Where did they get married?
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James and Jane were married in the Parish of Fulham in the county of Middlesex
have to check on James and Annie's place of marriage.
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In 1841 James and Eliza are there as Smith so no clues re name - that is if this is same family.
Best wait until certificate arrives as you say- please keep us informed - it's intriguing.
best wishes
Kath
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You have no idea (or maybe you do :) ) how long it's taken to track James and his family down... I can't believe his name is spelled so many different ways. You have helped so much in filling in the many gaps.
I have records that I've unfortunately left at home, I will post some dates tonight but I think one of the kids was born in Surrey. I didn't even know about Walter Sime (Smith) he is news to me. I knew about Alfred and Charles. Jessie is there somewhere but she is a bit of a mystery too.
I'll post more info when I get my hands on it :)
I'm in Canada... I wish I were in England to do some hands on research myself. thank you again for helping me.
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Hey The Newfster- look what I found and will post in full even though you can all access it!
1881 RG11; Piece: 79; Folio: 20; Page: 33
32 L Sloane Street Chelsea
J E Smith mar 38 yrs carpenter b Windsor
J Smith wife 34 yrs b England
W Smith son 11 yrs b Surrey
J Smith daur 9 yr b Surrey
A Smith son 6 yrs b Middx. Chelsea
how good is that
I am so pleased - they were obviously in their 'tell 'em nowt' ,mood at the time of census.
heywood
Brilliant !
The old 'Initials' variation eh :D
Only this morn I was looking for some Hilliers using initials, to no avail tho ...
Strange I didnt think about it with this lot ...... :)
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I guess there is the surrey connection you were looking for... both Jessie and Walter were born in Reigate Surrey.
I don't think I ever would have found them under the name Smith... very confusing.
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It could be as simple as yer mauns handwriting ..... filled in the enumeration form and when it was collected and copied onto the forms we see today, it was read as SMITH !
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I guess that could be it :) in the 1891 Census it's written as Seine... but it gets more clear after that... it's just weird that his son Charles is shown with his Uncle as Smith as well. very strange... wonder if they were hiding from something.
All the birth records I have from that period are all Sime or Sim
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yes I agree it is so odd - they are written as Smith but you read so often here that one lots is called ... and the other ....
We'll look at the birth certificate and see what happens!!
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So here is the info I have:
James Edwards Sime and Jane Withers married on 28 April 1867; James is a carpenter; residence is Fulham; father's name is James Sime also a carpenter; her father is Charles Withers who is a carpenter as well.
Birth record for Edward Charles born 28 Jan 1868, 4 Clifton Place, west Brompton; father James Edwards Sims; mother Jane Sims formerly Withers
Birth record for Jessie born 22 Feb 1872, Earlswood Reigate; Father Edwards Sime, carpenter; mother Jane Sime formerly Withers
Birth record for Alfred born 30th Aug 1874, 53 Upper manor Street, Chelsea; father James Edward Sim, carpenter; mother Jane Sim formerly Withers
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Death record: Jane Simes 1886 (born abt 1848) age at death 38
marriage record: 13 Feb 1887 James Edward Sime and Annie Johnson formerly Prince; James is a carpenter; witnessed by father Edward Sime occupation bulter ?; living at 24 Noel Street
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Well what a puzzle!
It is too difficult at the moment to identify Edward (?) the father.
I put Edward Smith- etc with carpenter s variants into 1881 and found an Edward Sime -too young but then realised that all those Edwards were carpenters because I had searched for them ::) it's late!
As we don't know age etc for the father- are you sure that it is father and not son who has witnessed the marriage - it is a bit too difficult at the moment.
The son Edward is transcribed as Sine in 1901 but it does look like Sime on actual census.
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Well believe it or not... I finally got the birth certificate for James Edwards Syme... and it's really poor quality so I can't read the mothers name and there is no father ??? what are the chances of that...
So I guess that one is a dead end :-\
Guess I'll keep on searching... thanks again for all your help everyone.
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oh dear- what a shame :(
Does it have an address on the birth certificate?
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No not really it is County of Buckingham sub district of Eton and I can`t really make out anything of the writing... looks like march 26 1843 at Eton in the When and Where born box then for the name, surname and maiden name of mother it just says what looks like Fefsy Symes Name and surname of father and occupation boxes are completely blank. Signature and residence of informant only says Fefsy Symes Mother Eton. Her first name is a bit of a mystery... very hard to read. :(
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No not really it is County of Buckingham sub district of Eton and I can`t really make out anything of the writing... looks like march 26 1843 at Eton in the When and Where born box then for the name, surname and maiden name of mother it just says what looks like Fefsy Symes Name and surname of father and occupation boxes are completely blank. Signature and residence of informant only says Fefsy Symes Mother Eton. Her first name is a bit of a mystery... very hard to read. :(
HI,
My first guess would be Betsy but that doesn't help you if as you said in your first message you ancestor's father was James Edward - or did he make a father up?
Regards
Vicwinann
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Bessy ?
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I wondered about Jessy - you know when it is the elongated 's'. There was a James Smith with parent Eliza- father James Smith. They could have married later perhaps but he wasn't a carpenter either. As you say Vicwinann the father could have been made up as sometimes / often happens.
1841 - Eton has a couple of Eliza/Elizth Smiths and a Sam family but that doesn't have any likely name.
1841- Windsor has a Eliza Simms with her father William- a carpenter- also some Smiths but this is clutching at straws.
Such a pity.
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It really doesn't look like jessy but I guess it could be. there is two similar loopy letters that look like f's or j's.
On both of James' marriage records his father has witnessed, once in 1867 as James Sime as a carpenter and again in 1887 as Edward Sime as what looks like Butler as the occupation which I thought was kind of strange... maybe he retired from carpentry or maybe it was written in error??? not sure. At this point I have no idea what James' mother's name is or where his father was born.