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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Free Photo Restoration & Date Old Photographs => Topic started by: abbeyfields on Sunday 29 June 08 17:16 BST (UK)
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Hi all,
Could someone please help me date this photo?
I think it is of my ggggf who was born in 1808.
Thanks so much!
Barbara
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Hi Barbara
You forgot to attach the photo :)
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I see you are new to posting, Barbara. Don't give up we all had to get used to it.
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So sorry, what a twit I am!
Will try again...
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one from me
Irene
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That's amazing!
I've been looking at that photo all of my life, and never seen it that way before!
Thanks so much,
Barbara
Collector, NSW, Australia
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Hello Barbara, welcome to Rootschat!
Men are hard to date! Not a social comment, but men's clothing is hard to pin a date to because their fashions don't change often or dramatically. So, we look for some other clues.
I see the corners of the photo are rounded. Believe it or not, this is an important clue. Photo corners became rounded in the 1870s, so they could be easily slid in and out of photo album pockets.
At the bottom, it says Stockton. If this is a location, there are a dozen Stocktons in England. If it's a photographer's name, a location would be helpful. Where was your ggggfather born, and where did he live?
Is there anything at all on the back? If there is a design, could you please scan and post it? It can help date the photo.
Just a preliminary guess on my part would be mid 1870s...ish :D I think that would make your ggggfather in his 60s in this photo, and this photo shows a much younger man. Could it be a generation later?
Cheers for now,
China
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I would say even a little later than China's estimate and would put the photo in the mid 1880s somewhere...just the pose and props speak more of that date in my humble opinion ;D
Either way, it's not your g-g-g-grandfather unfortunately, but could it be a son? The man in the photo looks to be around his mid 20s-early 30s...
Cheers
Prue
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That flooring is definitely earlier, though...it's typical 1860s linoleum...Split the difference, Prue? ;D ;D ;D
China
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Hmmm...much as I'd like to, China ;D I'm sticking to my guns on this one! I'm sure it's 1880s, or possibly even very early 90s. Too casual a pose for the 1870s, and the plants and cluttered surrounds suggest the later date. They might have just been too cheap to change the flooring! I think it's probably carpet.
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Hi all,
Sorry, I've been out, and now you're probably all asleep!
Anyhow, I should have told you that on the back of the photo is written: Stockton Photographer, Welles Street, Sandbach
Sorry to not tell you that in the first place.
I can scan the back for you if you like? I think there may have been a pattern on the back - I'll have to root it out again!
I'm so impressed by all of these dating details, it's a real science, isn't it?
We're a bit confused, as we were always led to believe by my ggm that it was Thomas (who actually b.1808, died 1892, and his son was meant to be a small dapper fellow, not tall, and this fellow looks like a big man to me!
Thanks again for all of your opinions,
Barbara
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Ooooo! I like this one!
He's super and well worth waiting for.
The back of the photo is important for dating, because there were different styles of design at different times.
The whole look and feel of the photo is the same as one of my Gran Harriet, which we dated in the 1800s.
What ever, he's a grand looking gent.
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Hi all,
I hope this works - here is the back of the photo!
It gets more and more interesting!
Thanks again for your opinions,
Barbara
Collector, NSW, Australia
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Pity the collar of the shirt, etc isn't a bit clearer - can you describe it for us please ie. is it a cravat or tie? (might be clearer on other screens, but I can't make it out very well on mine).
Thank you.
Paulene :)
P.S. Looked for him in the directories, and lists of photographers, but not been able to find anything. :(
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I was thinking the same, Paulene. I tried blowing it up, but it just looks like a plaster cast round his neck!
I would guess it was one of those very stiff straight collars that cut your head off if you didn't keep your chin up ???
I looked for the photographer too....no luck.
The back design is a bit arts and crafts or something like that, though, would you say?
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Thanks very much for searching though!
Um, I can't tell what type of tie it is, I'm afraid the original is as washed-out as it looks. It is certainly high.
The back design is like ferns, from what I can see.
Thanks again,
Barbara
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Sorry, I meant the backdrop, not the back
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Hi Paula,
I can see where you're coming from on that - certainly fairly plain compared with some (and it's not one of the very plain early ones) -still looking for something like it.
These men's photos certainly keep us guessing, don't they ;D
Paulene :)
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You're right there, Paulene...but that's fellers for you ::)
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Well, I've given up on tying to locate information on the photographer - even tried to date the chair - getting desperate, now!
I'd really value China, Prue or Paula's date on this outfit, before I make my next contribution, please.
Paulene :)
Hope the size is ok.
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Tight sleeves, lots of buttons, draped skirt...1883...or there abouts.
How does that fit in?
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Hi Paula,
Thanks for coming back to me - sorry it's taken me a while to get back to you, but I had to go out.
I was wondering 1880 -1885, but your date seems about right :)
Well, the only way I can give my guess (and I stress it is a guess) is to include a couple of photos.
The first I know was taken about 1870/1 as this poor chap (photographer) died in 1871. The second photo was his brother, who went to St.Perre, Martinique to work as a nautical artist, but died in 1875 - I think this must have been taken just before he left - so probably 1874/5. (Don't know what the cause of death was - they didn't put it on the overseas certificate ??? >:().
Anyway, they're typical of all the ones I have, and those I've seen today, in that the earlier ones seem to use heavier props(photo 1 here) and chairs, suits less tailored, then a bit later you start to see more of a rustic effect coming in(phot 2 here); but the ferns, bamboo, and rustic furniture come slightly later(photo of the lady above).
The high stiff collars (with narrow opening) and cravats seem to be very late 1870s through into 1880s.
So, overall my guess is 1881 at earliest, maybe later. Feel he might have more whiskers if it had been earlier. Though you only have to look at the informal pose, lack of whiskers in the 187o photo to see that nothing is ever straightforward :-\
Flooring in the Stockton photo is a puzzle though, I have to admit, China - not an easy one to date.
Open to correction.
Paulene :)
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I'm trying to do a colour version, and stripping it down bit by bit and blowing it up ginormous with the Vista to do it....
Looks like someone has either been crying over the photo, or opened their lemonade can in the wrong direction (my son and heir's favourite trick >:( ) because there are a lot of 'wet type' blob marks.
I think one of them went from his nose down his shirt front. For a moment I thought I was seeing very thin whiskers, then I realised the lines carried on.
That's probably why his collar is 'washed out'
....and if that kid doesn't stop screaming out in the street I'll start screaming too!
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You know, Paula, I wondered what that was :-\
Thought it was a bit early for the afternnon shadow effect, or jowls.
Look forward to seeing it.
Paulene :)
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Er...yes, so am I...there's a lot more detail in it than I thought there was ;D
It certainly has a rustic feel to it...or perhaps 'new exotic palm house feel.'
The backdrop is all ferny, sort of classic garden with an ornamental pot or two...the table is one of those tables made out of cane or something like, but just look at what is on it...I thought they were pots of ferns at first, then woven baskets...no, blown up they become logs....
Hollowed logs with ferns in? Never seen anything like that before.
Fascinating.
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Interesting, Paula.
I think that's what the flowers are in in the photo I put on of the lady c.1883 - you can't really tell on the image on the thread. Pity, that's the reason I put it on to show the similarity. Perhaps I need to get the orginal out again and re-scan it (not for the thread, but just to keep on my computer).
So many I still need to figure out who's who with.
Paulene :)
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Hi all :)
Paula's correct with the dating of the lady's photo, that outfit is pure early-mid 1880s :D
The second photo you put up next, of the man sitting on a fence, I would also put in the early-mid 1880s. The casual pose and the very rustic props indicate this.
The first of those photos would definitely date to 1871 or earlier, possibly even mid 1860s.
Prue
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Here he is, in all his ferny glory and minus the droopy mustache
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Nice Paula,
Very nice, not sure about the acid green background though, shouldn't it be a lighter colour?
I wish that I could see to do work like that. Brilliant!
Rabbit B ;D
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Hi Prue,
Thanks for the dates. :)
The odd thing is that both the second and third photos have the names on them - that's how I know who they are , and I know when they died. Charles died in 1871, and William in 1875. ???
Is it possible that, because they were a family that moved in photographic circles that the backdrops/settings were quite advanced compared with other photos taken at the time?
Charles Richards (2nd photo)was working as a photographer in Nottingham in the 1860s, and had his own studio, but sadly died at the age of 21 years. Their sister Emily later married Derby photographer and printer Richard Keene's son, William Caxton Keene, who was an artist and engraver.
The names on the photographs would have been written on by their younger brother, Alfred, my husband's great grandfather.
Paulene :)
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Well I have to say that I have never seen a photograph using those props from as early as 1875, so I'm going to have to do some more research! :)
Added: Just refreshed my memory a little by browsing the photos on this page:
http://www.cartes.freeuk.com/dec/dated.htm While it is by no means exhaustive, you'll see that photos from the early-mid 1870s are still quite formal and rigid (in particular note the photographers from large cities like London and Liverpool etc. as they'll be the most up-to-date). It's not until the late 1870s and 1880s that the rustic-style props and painted backdrops etc. are introduced.
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Hi Barbara........Heres another to add to your list.
Carolyn :)
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Oh my goodness, these coloured photos are truly amazing!
Thank you so much for doing these - it is like he is staring right at us!
Really quite astounding!
And thank you everyone for your very valid comments regarding the time it was taken.
We are so confused - my Mother was so certain it was Thomas who was born in 1808, as her nana told her this, but now this seems impossible? His son was reputed to be a very small man - what do people think - does this man look of small stature? He was born in 1848, or there is another brother who was born in 1837 whose name also happens to be Thomas?
The man in the photo looks rather large to me, but perhaps that's just his hands that are large, making him look large?
Also, I have done the most detailed scan that I can (again) of the photo that I can which is approx 1 and a half mbs - if anyone would like to look I can email it to them?
Thanks once again, it has openned a whole new can of worms!
Barbara
Collector, NSW, Australia
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Hi Barbara,
Sorry for confusing the thread - put in the photos to help rather than add confusion :-[
As far as the gentleman in your photo is concerned I agree that he does look quite tall - if he was small the chair back would have been nearer his shoulders.
To help Prue I've scanned the backs of the two later photos.
The earliest photo has a plain back just with Charles' name in pencil on the back - so I think this was done at his own studio or by a photgrapher friend.
I've worked out a date for the other photos myself but we'll see if the others agree.
Sorry for taking over the thread - hope in the end it proves useful
Paulene :)
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Prue,
It's an odd one isn't it . If I hadn't got the name and seen the back I would think entirely the same! ???
Paulene :)
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Hi Saddles,
That one is so lovely I have to compliment you!
That website is most interesting Prue!
I shall have a very good look at that! Thank you!
Rabbit B ;D
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Top photo back is 1860s style.
Must rush, I'm late :P
C
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Thanks for that, China - especially as you're in a rush :D
Paulene :)
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The first back is definitely 1860s - probably second half of the 60s.
The second back looks like very late 70s-mid 80s to me. The site I posted before has another section with pictures of card backs from various decades: http://www.cartes.freeuk.com/time/date.htm
There isn't an exact match for yours, but if you go through each decade you'll be able to pick up the general design changes through time...bear in mind, too, that sometimes it took a photographer a while to get through his cards, so while a design might be - say - 1870, that doesn't mean the photographer couldn't stick onto it a photo from 1880.
Cheers
Prue
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Thanks China and Prue.
I've found a book by Bernard and Pauline Heathcote called 'Pioneers of Photography In Nottinghamshire 1841 - 1910' and it has the following:
Kirk Samuel
Francis Terrace, 41 Union Rd 1867
Moore St., Union Rd. 1868-70
Richards Charles
Wheeler Gate 1871
So, it looks as if as if poor Charles had just established his busiess before he died in 1871.
Looking at the back of Abbeyfields photo it looks like one of the 1880s ones judging by the site you sent, Prue.
Paulene :)
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Oh, and
Smith John Benjamin (& son from 1883, and Sons fom 1896)
1 Portland Rd. 1881-1902
Paulene :)
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Thanks Girls/Ladies,
For all the fascinating info. Most interesting all round.
Rabbit B :D
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Hi Barbara and Rabbit B..........Thanks for the kind words.
Carolyn :) :)