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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Kent => England => Kent Lookup Requests => Topic started by: doverrog on Saturday 28 June 08 14:39 BST (UK)
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Hello,
I have been working on the Matson family branch who were Millers at Upper Deal.
William Matson who died in 1826 owned Upper Deal Mill and this was passed on to his son William (1784-1842).
I have been unable to trace the birth/christening of the elder William although I have his marriage in October 1781 at St. Leonards, Deal to Mary Hyder.
I'm guessing this would mean that William would have been born about 1761?
Although it seems likely he was born in Deal I cannot find any record.
I have this note "Thomas MATSON apprenticed to Thomas RAMMELL of Deal, Baker 1771, fee £12. 15s.
(ref: 67/213 Inland revenue records at PRO)"
So perhaps Thomas Matson was the father of William? However I cannot find any record for this Thomas either!
My current thinking is linked to this record -
William MATSON (son of James MATSON of St Margaret's at Cliffe, yeoman) by Indenture 1 May 1714 with consent of his father was apprenticed to Robert HATTON of Dover, Baker, for 7 years; consideration £15 paid to the master. Inrolled 4 Jan 1714-15 (Dover Apprentice Enrollments, Kent Co.Archives)
A William Matson (Baker) is made a Freeman of Dover on the 26th July 1722 by apprenticeship (Folio 3).
It’s possible that William Matson who was married in 1781, and therefore probably born about 1755-60, may be the grandson of this William as he was a Baker and Miller at Upper Deal.
Can anyone help with any records that may perhaps confirm or disprove my thinking?
In particular the birth of William Matson who married Mary Hyder would really help.
As always your help is greatly appreciated.
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Hi Rog
The 1841 census shows William MATSON of Upper Deal Mill as age 67 thus born about 1773/1774 not c1783/1784. Do you have a death or burial to confirm his age? Otherwise, if this 1841 census entry is correct, it might be a bit unlikely that he was the son of a couple who married in 1781 :-\
1841
Upper Deal Mill
William MATSON 67 miller Y
Thomas 22 miller Y
Frederick 16 miller Y
Mary 57 Y
Mary (?)9 Y
/
Thomas WHITEWOOD 22 male servant Y
HO107/466 folio 9 page 9
You say that Upper Deal Mill was previously owned by a William MATSON who died in 1826 and who was William's father ................... can we ask your sources for this? I only ask because the tithe award schedule for Deal shows Thomas WHITEWOOD as the owner of Upper Deal Mill and Mrs MATSON as the occupier http://www.kentarchaeology.org.uk/Research/Maps/DEA/02.htm
I see there is a will for a Mary MATSON (widow of Deal) 1843 - is that of any relevance? http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/wills.asp
William MATSON of Deal miller ba & Eliz Eve COLLARD of the same sp. Lic. granted 7 Apr 1801 ....................... I assume this is the previous marriage of the William MATSON (of Upper Deal Mill 1841) who was widowed (of Deal) when he married Mary WHITEWOOD (lic. granted 26 Oct 1813). Have you sighted either of these marriages to see whether there are any clues ie. relatives signing?
Casalguidi :)
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Thanks casalguidi.
I'm checking to find where I got my date of birth for William the younger. I have a precise date of christening as 11th January 1784 in Deal, but so far my filing system(!!!) has failed to reveal the paper with that info. on it!
From a book 'Watermills and Windmills' relating to Kentish Mills.
In 1840 the mill was owned by a widow, Mrs Matson and that the new smock mill was built for her son. The family continued to use it for a great number of year.
Fred Matson was the miller in 1878, according to a directory of that date, and he held it as late as 1894.
From the same book 'Watermills and Windmills' relating to Kentish Mills.
Without dates it refers to George Matson as the miller, but says that Mrs
Matson, widow, was the owner in 1840. This means, I guess that George died
1839/40 and that the new smock mill was built for her son. It says that this
family continued to use it for a great number of years. Frederick Matson was
the miller in1878 and had it as late as 1894.
Also this reference -
Mary MATSON widow built replacement smock mill for her son, Deal
(Bygone Kent, Vol.1 No.12, page 743 onwards, Deal's Windmills)
I have this - Wm Matson of Deal miller bach & Eliz Eve Collard of the s sp. 07 Apr 1801 which is indeed the marriage record for William the miller.
William second marriage, 28th October 1813 Deal, to Mary Whitewood seems to fit. As does Frederick 1851 census and above book.
1851 census has Mary MATSON head wid 67 born Tilmanstone
Thomas Matson son Unm 32 farmer Deal
Frederick " son Unm 26 Miller Deal
Mary Ann " dau Unm 28 Millers daughter b. Deal
Thomas WHITEWOOD visitor widr 70 Retired Carpenter b. Eastry
Ann SUTTON unm 18 Millers Ap. B. Whitfield
(DEAL, Upper Deal Mill House 1851 Census, page 8, fol.640, No.34)
So we now have a possibility of two mills owned by Matsons.
Upper Deal by William, born ? and buried 25th October 1826, and passed onto his son William , 1784 or 1794 to 1842. Owned by his surviving wife Mary Whitewood whose son Frederick Matson became the miller.
As to ownership I'm now wondering if Thomas Whitewood was Mary Whitewood's father and if he owned the mill. The book being wrong?
Would the Tithes records be definitive?
Although as Thomas is described as a retired carpenter perhaps it means that another Whitewood. possibly a brother of Thomas, was the mill owner.
To add to the confusion the book about mills refers to a George Matson as being the miller who I cannot find at all.
So I need to confirm the dob for William Matson the elder and also find a record of George Matson as a miller and if a Thomas Matson, the apprentice of Thomas Rammell, is another earlier miller in Deal who may be an ancestor.
Thomas MATSON apprenticed to Thomas RAMMELL of Deal, Baker 1771, fee £12. 15s. (ref: 67/213 Inland revenue records at PRO)
All help gratefully received.
Also some more about a possible Whitewood who could be a miller.
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Hi Rog
I'm checking to find where I got my date of birth for William the younger. I have a precise date of christening as 11th January 1784 in Deal
The problem as I see it is that this William baptised 1784 may not be the same William that was at Upper Deal Mill in 1841 if the age in the 1841 census is correct and, also, if he was baptised 1784 then he would probably have been 17 years of age at his first marriage - not impossible of course but one would expect there to be mention of him being a minor on the marriage licence or parish register entry :-\ Do you have an age at burial for William (husband of Mary WHITEWOOD) ???
1792 Deal directoryWilliam MATSON, baker
1824 Deal directory
Wm MATSON, Middle St, baker
............ MATSON, Alfred Square, miller
1839 Deal directory
*Mrs MATSON, Market Street (under nobility, gentry & clergy)
Mary MATSON, baker, 21 Middle Street
Phillip MATSON, baker, Duke Street
**George MATSON, miller, Upper Deal
* She would probably be the Mary MATSON age 80 living in Market Street 1841 census (independant born Kent) and perhaps she is the one with the PCC will mentioned above.
** George - could he be William's father or uncle or brother etc. ???
1847 Deal directory
Mary MATSON, corn miller, Upper Deal
Mary MATSON, farmer, Upper Deal
As to ownership I'm now wondering if Thomas Whitewood was Mary Whitewood's father and if he owned the mill. The book being wrong?
Would the Tithes records be definitive?
I have found tithe records to be generally accurate - that one is dated 30 Jan 1843 so it could be that things changed if William had died by then or it could be that the MATSONs didn't actually own the land but the business :-\
Casalguidi
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Hi Rog
There was another family of MATSONs with a milling connection:
John HALSEY junior of St Peter Canterbury, wid, cordwainer & Mary Eliz MATSON of Willesborough, 18, father Wm MATSON miller to marry at Willesborough. Marriage Lic. granted 12 Sep 1791.
Mary Elizabeth could be part of this family:
William MATSON & Mary BACK married Ashford 1771
Children
Mary Elizabeth 1773 (married John HALSEY?)
Sarah 1774
William 1776
Prudence 1777 (married Thomas MARCH?)
Gellinger 1778 (married Eleanor GARRICK)
Ann 1780 (married Simon SELMES?)
Thomas 1783
Ann 1787
Barbara 1789
They appear to have moved away from Ashford at some point http://www.kentarchaeology.org.uk/Research/01/ASH/01/00m.htm
A Prudence MATSON married Thomas MARCH at St Peter & Paul, Milton, Gravesend 1 Jan 1798. The marriage was witnessed by a William MATSON (father/brother?) - can his signature be compared to other signatures anywhere ???
http://www.rootschat.com/links/03rf/
Casalguidi :)
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Another MATSON miller .........
Mr R MATSON, Barfrestone, miller - bankrupt - London Gazette 10 Mar 1821
Casalguidi :)
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Thanks casalguidi.
I spent some time yesterday looking through information about Mills but nothing.
It seems as though there are possibly 2/3 Matson families who are millers.
One in Ashford and a possible two in the Deal area. The R. Matson bankrupt is completely new as well, although he could be linked to the Deal family.
The info about the Ashford family has helped me tie together several loose ends, although I still have them as a separate group and not as yet linked to my main tree.
The first Deal family linked to the Whitewoods/Hyder families and the second Deal family possibly linked to the Rammell family.
The Deal information I have verified against reliable sources/parish etc although that date for William the younger of 11th January 1784 in Deal is still not turning up in my records so remains a mystery.
I have a confirmed burial date for William Matson the elder as 25th October 1826. For his wife, Mary Hyder, I have a date of death as in the December Quarter 1843 (from Free BMD). This fits with the will date of November 1843.
A date of death for William Matson the younger as in the June Quarter 1842 (from Free BMD)
Looking at the records we now have it seems that the mysterious George, who is referred to in the book and in the 1839 Directory you quoted, is the more likely to be the ancestor we need to find out about. However I can find no references to him anywhere else!
Thomas Matson, the apprentice of 1771, is still a possible link although not as a father/son relationship.
Would I be correct that an apprentice would probably be in his early teens and therefore born about 1857?
If so then William the elder, who married in 1781, say about 20 years old, would be born about 1761ish which seems to say that Thomas and William the elder are about the same age. Possibly brothers?
Could it be that the 'missing' George is yet another brother?
Could R. Matson, bankrupt of Barfrestone be a fourth brother?
Also I wonder if anyone may have something about the Whitewood family as we have 'Thomas WHITEWOOD visitor widr 70 Retired Carpenter b. Eastry - 1851 census' and I have found 'Ann Whitewoods’ death recorded in the March Quarter of 1844 in Eastry Registration District (5 123) which includes Tilmanstone where Mary was born.
Perhaps, as there are a few Whitewoods in Free Dmd in the same area, that may help identify the Matson family origins ?
The Deal Tithe award schedule - 30th January 1843 showing Mary as both at the Mill and being tenant of 3 pieces of land fits with the 1847 directory entry.
As well as the Whitewood family I also wonder if anyone may be able to help with anything about Marys' family, the HYDERs?
To recap it's George Matson and Thomas Matson that I would really love to trace but as yet I'm still stumped.
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thomas matson born 1818 what became of him regards ken
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Ken, do you mean this one?
1851 census has Mary MATSON head wid 67 born Tilmanstone
Thomas Matson son Unm 32 farmer Deal
Frederick " son Unm 26 Miller Deal
Mary Ann " dau Unm 28 Millers daughter b. Deal
Thomas WHITEWOOD visitor widr 70 Retired Carpenter b. Eastry
Ann SUTTON unm 18 Millers Ap. B. Whitfield
(DEAL, Upper Deal Mill House 1851 Census, page 8, fol.640, No.34)
In 1861 he is still at the same address with his mother whilst in 1871 he is in Church Street, Walmer living with his sister - do you have these details and/or what is it specifically you would like to know?
Casalguidi :)
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Hello, Doverrog
Don't know if it aples but I have a family of Matsons in Walmer, one of which was William, born 1750, parents William & Mary. Further details if you want them.
Aj
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Mary Elizabeth Matson, is in my tree, she is my 5 times great grandmother, marrying John Halsey, their son george Halsey then had a daughter called temperence elizabeth halsey,she married a charles russell, and the tree does followon down from there, have you any more info on mary at all?
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From the Parish Records:
St George's Baptisms:
Children of William & Mary MATSON Mary died 20/1/1845 while living at Margate. Buried at St Leonard's. William died 25/10/1826 aged either 69 or 64 and is buried at St George's.
23/12/1781 Mary-Ann MATSON (baptised at Sholden church) 28/12/1791 Harriott MATSON died 6/12/1793
11/1/1784 William MATSON 2/8/1793 Elizabeth MATSON died 6/12/1793
13/7/1785 Thomas MATSON 23/1/1799 Caroline MATSON
21/3/1787 Richard Hyder MATSON died 18/2/1855 Middle St 26/12/1801 Elizabeth Ann MATSON
25/11/1789 John MATSON
Children of William & Mary MATSON, Miller, Upper Deal
26/12/1814 Thomas Whitecard MATSON 20/2/1822 Mary Ann MATSON
21/7/1816 JOhn MATSON 31/10/1824 Frederick MATSON
18/3/1818 Thomas MATSON 1/10/1826 Jane MATSON
9/4/1820 William Henry MATSON
Regards
AJ
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Hello to all
I am particularly interested in the Burvill connection with the Matson family of Deal and earlier.
Thomas Hyder married Ann Burville at St Mary's, Hinxhill on 29 Oct 1759.
One of their children Mary Hyder married William Matson at St Leonards, Deal on 14 Oct 1781.
This couple in turn produced Mary Ann Matson, christened in Dec 1781 at Sholden.
Now this Mary Ann Matson (I believe) was a witness at the marriage of Maria Burvill at Walmer in 1800.
The close link between the two continued when Mary Ann Matson's niece later marries Maria Burville's son in Deal in 1824.
I am wondering whether Mary Ann and Maria were actually related in some way. To find out, I need to know more about Ann Burville (above). Has anyone more info that will throw light on her and her family.
THanks
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Hello, roipolli
Some small details which might help. As you say, Mary Ann MATSON was witness to the wedding of James HOLMES & Maria BURVILL on 24 Sep 1800 at St Mary's in Walmer. The other witness was William BURVILL. Neither James HOLMES or Maria BURVILL were baptised in Deal or Walmer - in fact I can find no baptism for Maria anywhere.
The Burvills were a family that moved about - not many of them and those that were here are hard to track down.
The offspring of William MATSON & Mary HYDER are listed in my last post. There were more than one William & Mary Matson families but this has to be the one with Richard having Hyder as a middle name.
The Burvills and Matsons don't seem to appear in the area much before the late 18th century.
Hope this is of some use
AJ
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Thanks AJ
FYI Maria Burvill was baptised at St Margaret's at Cliffe 1/12/1776
James Holmes at Dover on 6/6/1777 (I am told)
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Hello, Doverrog
Don't know if it aples but I have a family of Matsons in Walmer, one of which was William, born 1750, parents William & Mary. Further details if you want them.
Aj
Hi AJ100
Would appreciate these details. Thanks
RP
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Doverrog and others
I have the Matson name in my family's tree but they were based around Faversham and villages, however, you might be interested to look at www.ancestors-forever.co.uk for further details.
NANNY WITH ROSIE
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Hello, Doverrog
Don't know if it aples but I have a family of Matsons in Walmer, one of which was William, born 1750, parents William & Mary. Further details if you want them.
Aj
Hi AJ100
Would appreciate these details. Thanks
RP
Hello RP
Sorry so late in replying, Computer's been on the blink and I've been away.
Herewith Matsons Baptised at St Mary's, Walmer
Children of William & Mary MATSON
14/9/1746 William 10/2/1750 William
25/12/1748 Mary 15/9/1754 Anne
Children of John & Anne MATSON
5/7/1747 John 16/9/1751 Robert
8/1/1748 Elizabeth 12/12/1762 Susanna
8/4/1750 Anne 24/3/1765 Hannah
Children of Thomas & Elizabeth MATSON, Baker
Born Baptised
14/10/1808 6/11/1808 Eliza 6/8/1814 28/8/1814 Edmund
21/4/1810 23/5/1810 George 27/9/1817 19/10/1817 Thomas Richard
5/7/1812 19/7/1812 Alfred William 11/9/1819 12/9/1819 Mary Ann
Baptised At St Leonad's Church, Deal, about a mile away:
Children of Charles & Elizabeth MATSON, Miller, Upper Deal
3/8/1828 Eliza 1/7/1832 Charles
30/1/1830 William John 19/10/1834 Sara Elizabeth
2 more baptisms from St George's, Deal, children of William & Mary listed in earlier post
28/12/1791 Hariott
12/12/1794 Harriett
Hope this helps
Regards
AJ
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Thanks very much