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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Perthshire => Topic started by: Lass on Wednesday 25 June 08 20:56 BST (UK)
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Hi all!
I've found an ancestor on the 1871 census as being a prisoner in Perth Prison. ;D I'm just wondering if there are any online records I can search to try to find out what the naughty laddie had been up to....... Can anyone point me in the right direction or do I need to go to West Register House?
Lass x
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Hi,
Have you checked the National Archives of Scotland's online catalogue? I've found a few crimes recorded about the same time period. Local newspapers would probably cover the incident too. :)
Link: http://www.nas.gov.uk/onlineCatalogue
hume24
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Hi Lass
I too had a husband and wife that commited a crime, husband sent to Perth prison for a 15mth stretch wife got off with charge.NAS record for being imprisoned given as theft and reset of theft.I often wonder what they stole.
Fiona
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Hi there and thanks for helping!
I don't know what it is I'm doing wrong, but I have problems searching with NAS, I can NEVER find anything/anyone I'm looking for..... no matter what I do, I can never seem to find individual records and I consider myself fairly adept at this sort of thing!!!! Aaaarrghhhh!!
Lass x
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What was the name of your prisoner? ;D At times, I have the same problem with the NAS search ... the record never appears until I'm searching for something else!
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;D Thanks Hume, I didn't want to ask outright, I was trying to persevere but this site frustrates me like no other!!
My chap is:
William Crumley
born abt 1822 in Perth and residing at the County Prison (as a prisoner!), Perth at the time of the 1871 census
Any help you can offer will be gratefully accepted!
Lass x
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Hi again, :)
Only found two records for a William Crumley. However, he's a lot younger than your William (born c. 1844) and this one was found not guilty. The reference numbers for his records are AD14/71/16 and JC26/1871/19. Other info included is that he was a tinsmith. :-\
hume24
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Hume
I promise I'll have an early night tonight and get some sleep, if you promise to forgive me for telling you William was born in 1822 when he was actually born in 1844........... :-[ ::)
That's my man, tinsmith he was!!
Lass x
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Thanks so much for your help Hume! It's a tad odd to find that he was found not guilty, but is it possible that he was held in prison pending the outcome of his trial?
Can I ask a quick question? How on earth did you track this? Could I beg of you to type-talk through how you searched when you have a minute or two to spare? :D
Lass x
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I think that was probably the case, Lass. His trial might have been in the process when the census was taken. It looks (and I'm only guessing) he might have been accused of bigamy; any chance he married soon before that date?
In the "Search for:" box, I typed William Crumley and put a dot in the "All Words (AND)" circle. That makes sure both words appear in the record. Then I clicked search and voila, it appeared! I usually add to the Dates from/to fields in the case of a popular name.
hume24 :)
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It's interesting that bigamy appears to be the allegation - this family is posing quite difficult to get to grips with and there's seems to be several wives popping up! In the 1881 cenus he's living with a woman who is registered as his lodger but whom he later marries although I can't find the record. He also has his son living with him at that point, and the son's surname is neither his father's nor the lodger/surrogate-mum-to-be.
As for the search, I swear I tried that already!!! But now I've done it again, and hey presto. Thank you so much for your help Hume, it's very much appreciated :D I'm sure mum will be disappointed that it wasn't something more interesting!!! ;D
Lass x
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Try the AK Bell Library in Perth; they have very good archivists and are usually very willing to help point people in the right direction.
http://guide.visitscotland.com/vs/guide/5,en,SCH1/objectId,INF50710Svs,curr,GBP,season,at1,selectedEntry,home/mailfs.html
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Thanks for that tip Oramazda! :)
Lass x
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Hi, just found your conversation of June 2008 re Perth Prison. (I had someone of mine in there too :o!)
If you can't get to West Register House in Edinburgh to look at the actual documents (assuming they still exist in half-decent form), I could do this for you sometime, if you like?
I'm in there occasionally - yes, I do research as an occasional business, but this isn't touting for business - it would be a total freebie, unless you want copies of documents, for which they charge £2.50 for every 5 pages.
Court papers often include witness statements in the witnesses' own handwriting, etc - fascinating!
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Hi Blackcat & welcome to Rootschat
can I take you up on your kind offer of a look up at West Register House.I went to NAS in the summer looking for this info and was told details were held at West Register House which was just about to close for the day :(.
I would appreciate if you could take the time for this look up and if so what details do you need.
Fiona
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No problem Fiona - I might even manage to get in this week, with luck.
Only problem might be that they are doing some maintenance work at present, so some documents have had to be stored off-site - if yours are amongst that lot ( which I won't know till I get there), they have to be ordered up 24 hours in advance, and I may not be able to stay in Edinburgh for that. If that's the case, it would be after New Year.
Gather it was William Crumley AD14/71/16 and JC26/1871/19. ?
I can look at papers and just jot down notes, post them to you on this website.
If you want copies, either I could order and pay for them to be sent out , as they have to be scanned by photgraphics dept which takes about 7 -10 days. (In which case, we'd need to figure out a safe way of exchanging addresses), or else I can just give you details, and you could try ordering them up long-distance. Are you in UK?
Janice
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Hi Janice
Thanks.There is no hurry.
not William Grumley though but John Burnside and his wife Hannah Burnside nee Sanderson
related record JC26/1863/97
" " " " "
John was sentenced at Jedburgh Sherriff court 1863....
crime- theft and reset of theft.Wondering what they stole ???.John got 15months in Perth prison his wife got off without sentence.
I know after John was out of prison they used the surname Burns instead of Burnside and moved to Glasgow.Do you need any other info.
If you find the info relating to John can you private message the results to me, due to copyright issues.
Fiona
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Oops, sorry, Fiona - I was looking at the wrong post.
That's probably enough info - leave it with me, and I'll let you know if I find anything. You'll need to talk me through how to do the private post bit, as I'm a new kid on this forum!
J
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Hi Janice
glad you worked out the PM.
I would think Lass would appreciate a look up also for William Crumley.Im sure she will be in touch.
Fiona
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Will do! - have details.
J
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8) :D ;D
thanks so much
Fiona
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I also found an ancestor in Perth Prison in the 1851 Census - Alexander Black aged 48 b1803 Liberton, Edinburgh. Unfortunately I too have been unable to find any information on why he should be there, he died in January 1878 in a Pit Accident in Fife. :'(
Grandma
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Hi Grandma
There is an Alexander Black junior,on NAS online,possibilty it could be your Alexander as sentence date fits with census date.
Fiona
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Thats the one - Alexander Black 47 and his son Alexander Sime Black 20. :'(
Thank you for your help!!
Grandma
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Fiona
I've an interest in this one with GrandmaSheila ... can you post us the link to the page please?
Ah cannae mak heid nor tail o' thon National Archives!
Chiad Fhear
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I actually got back to Sheila on this one in a private message - looked when I was in Archives on Monday, but problems on their system meant that I couldn't get hold of the actual documents that day. Will try again after New Year break. However, did get more info on actual charge. I'm new at this chat system, and not sure what is and isn't allowed to be published on general chat so can send you private message if you want?
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Please do blackcat153
Chiad Fhear
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Hey all
Sorry for going missing for a while, got your message Blackcat thank you so much - absolutely no urgency on my part (as you may have noticed!!!) and I'm just extremely grateful to you for offering to look up my naughty ancestor!
I promise to keep in touch as come the New Year I plan to get stuck back in!
Lass x
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Hi again, :)
Only found two records for a William Crumley. However, he's a lot younger than your William (born c. 1844) and this one was found not guilty. The reference numbers for his records are AD14/71/16 and JC26/1871/19. Other info included is that he was a tinsmith. :-\
hume24
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Sorry about the previous quote - I am new to the system and made a codswallop of it.
I have an antecedent William Thomson who was in Perth prison in 1881 according to Ancestry. He was born in 1852 in Coull Aberdeenshire so was aged 29 when in prison. I don't know when he went "inside" or what for, or the length of is sentence. He was however out in 1891 and back at Coull. Why would he be in Perth prison and not Aberdeen? Was it perhaps the seriousness of his crime?
I too have had terrible trouble trying to access the national Archive but it would appear that hume24 and Lass have done quite well so if there is anyone who could help I would really appreciate the assistance.
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Thanks to the kindness of 'blackcat153', 'GrandmaSheila' and I now have the full story of why Alexander Black and his son - also Alexander - ended up in 'the nick' in 1851
Regards
Chiad Fhear
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Hi, Jessie,
Don't worry about the codswallop !- I find this system a little bit confusing too - never sure what is a new message and what is the bit I'm trying to reply to!
Anyway, it had nothing to do with the seriousness of the crime - at that period, Perth was the General Prison for Scotland, and, once sentenced, people seemed to get shunted there from all over the country. I also had a (female) family member there in the 1860s, from Aberdeenshire - have also come across folk from the Borders, etc..
If you go on to this webpage for the Archives -
http://www.nas.gov.uk/onlineCatalogue
Type in William Thomson, and tick the box for 'Phrase', go down the date section and enter a fairly generous likely period, then hit Search.
If you don't tick Phrase, you'll get hundreds of pages with William Smith and Robert Thomson
, etc., featuring !
I've just tried this from 1862 - 1882, and got 15 Persons and 86 Catalogue entries, none of which look correct on a quick look, but you could maybe spend more time on it?
If you get hold of a likely entry, hit on the Reference at the left-hand side, and it should come up with more details. A lot of the entries, by the way, are of Sequestration proceeedings ( bankrupcy) so not likely to be your man, I woldn't think.
If you do come up with a reference, and want to know more, let me know, and I'll check next time I'm in West Register House, where the legal archives are held. [Could be a couple of weeks or so, though, so hope you're not in a hurry.]
Janice
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Thanks. I've got a bit further but the NAS website is not the greatest for even intuitive thinking. Had a look at the results thrown up by NAS but there did not appear to be anything that could lead me further - but I am inexperienced!
I thought that a crime warranting imprisonment was fairly serious and perhaps unusual for a relatively remote rural area. I know that William Thomson was at home in July 1876 because he has signed his grandfather's death certificate.
In 1881 he was no longer at home according to the Census but in jail in Perth.
He was back at Wardhead, Coull, the family home in 1891 according to the census.
Despite putting in a large date range on the NAS website I don't seem to have had much success.
Clearly I am going wrong somewhere........ any further hints?
Much obliged for the help so far though.
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Jessie, you've certainly come to the right place for help, but I do find the NAS website difficult to navigate too!! It's all thanks to rootschatters, and in this particular case, the wonderful Janice, that I'm progressing forwards with my Crumleys! So I'm sure she or other members will have some hints and tips for you, stick with it!
Lass x
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Dear Janice & Lass,
Keep uo with the encouragement for me - I seem to have hit a brick wall with William Thomson.
I'll take up your offer of looking up some details next time in Edinburgh - I'm over a hundred miles north so it's a huge trek to get there to find it either closed or the information not available because I haven't accessed the background correctly.
Further leads in accessing the seemingly labyrinthine website gratefully accepted.
Jessie Thomson
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Hi, Jessie,
Still thinking of possible options, will get back to you later tonight!
Janice
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Hi, Jessie,
Still not sure of the conventions around using this chatroom, so have sent you some info in a private message.
Let me know if you manage to dig up any more info on William!
Janice
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Hi There,
I hope you don't mind me adding a wee bit to this thread, I've been researching a couple of rogues from my past a husband and wife who often used alias's during their crime spree who finally spend 10 yrs in perth prison in 1879.
I discovered them to be crooks from a poor law application which listed the date he was sent down on his wives application.
I then looked on the NAS online search and found a few possible references. Having only this week visited and viewed these Court papers I was quite amazed at how hard they were on criminals back then. At a young age of 14 he got 10days & 25 stripes with the whip for pickpocketting a silk hankerchief.
His theving spree went on over several years along with his wife and all later crourt records show the crime as theft aggravated by previous conviction. Under the Penal Servitute Act which had abolished transportation crimes sommitted with previous conviction were dealt with a 7 year jail term. So a silk hankie, a couple of watches and a tobacco tin cost him most of his adult life in prison. Seems even back then with hard labour it didn't deter them all.
Keep looking for your relations records on NAS as theyre definatly facinating reading if you find them.
Gerry
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Serious crimes were tried in the High Court of Justiciary, and these records still exist, except that most often you only get the name of the panel (accused), the alleged crime, the name of the judge, sometimes the names of the witnesses, the where and the when, and the verdict; but no detailed record of the trial, i.e. the evidence of and cross examination of the witnesses.
However, it's near certain that there will be a near verbatim report in a newspaper somewhere, depending on where the crime was committed, and where the High Court was sitting. The index to these in on-line.
On top of that, all the productions, i.e. interviews with those involved, maps, digrams, descriptions, etc., in the runup to the trial, is still there in Edinburgh at West Register House, and can make fascinating reading, but you need to visit WRH.
Lesser crimes, for the era in this thread, were tried in the Sheriff Court. Sadly, with very few exceptions, kept as an example of the records, the Sheriff Court records have not been kept.
ibi
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hi my parents r both buried at dalbeth in their own family plots but with no headstones how do l go bout finding out where they r buried my fathers family plot is thomas he died in jan 1982 n my mum's family plot is diamond she died in nov 1989, is dalbeth still closed or is it opened up again can u please help thanks
jackie
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Hi Jackie
I think you may get a better response with your query in a more appropriate thread - why don't you try this one:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,82762.30.html
Lass x
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Serious crimes were tried in the High Court of Justiciary, and these records still exist, except that most often you only get the name of the panel (accused), the alleged crime, the name of the judge, sometimes the names of the witnesses, the where and the when, and the verdict; but no detailed record of the trial, i.e. the evidence of and cross examination of the witnesses.
However, it's near certain that there will be a near verbatim report in a newspaper somewhere, depending on where the crime was committed, and where the High Court was sitting. The index to these in on-line.
On top of that, all the productions, i.e. interviews with those involved, maps, digrams, descriptions, etc., in the runup to the trial, is still there in Edinburgh at West Register House, and can make fascinating reading, but you need to visit WRH.
Lesser crimes, for the era in this thread, were tried in the Sheriff Court. Sadly, with very few exceptions, kept as an example of the records, the Sheriff Court records have not been kept.
ibi
I'd like to access the newspaper on-line index if you could point me in the right direction. William Thomson, the prisoner, was an inmate in 1881 and came from rural Aberdeenshire so the records would be in "The Aberdeen Journal". I guess he was a lesser criminal belonging in the Sheriff Court record arena - even with the help of "black cat" nothing could be found. However an on-line newspaper index could prove to be very fruitful.
Many thanks - Jessie Thomson
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Hi Jessie,
If you telephone the headquarters of Aberdeenshire Library & Information Service,Meldrum Meg Way,Oldmeldrum on 01651 872707, they will be able to help. Very friendly staff will do a look up of the paper & send a photocopy of any relevant information. You can also visit in person & find out what information they may hold there.
flst
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Dear flst,
Thanks very much for that information. I'll give them a try.
Jessie Thomson
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I also have an inmate in 1881 census and cant find out what she was in for. Her name was eliza fleming ms brown. can anyone help?
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Was she from Glasgow? If so, there are two possible entries in the NAS catalogue. Just type in her name and tick the box that says phrase. http://www.nas.gov.uk/ (http://www.nas.gov.uk/)
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no she was born in kilmarnock but live her married life in dunfermline.
I tried the nas but dind't come up with anything useful most interesting all the same. Will try again with what you suggest. and let you know
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still can't find her either under eliza or elizabeth fleming or brown. She was there as she appears in the 1881 census in perth prison. It may have toremain a mystery why she was there. thanks anyway
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That's a pity. Our family's jailbird got a mention in Perth Prison Convict Journals. The NAS Reference is HH21/47/4 for one covering 10 Apr 1877-17 Sep 1879. It's a bit early but might be worth a look to see if she was there then.
People were sometimes held in local jails to await trial and transferred to Perth General prison after sentencing. There was a prison in Dunfermline but I can't find any records. There might be something in the Sheriff Court records or local newspapers of the period.
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Hello jacquisim18,
The 1881 census record for Eliza FLEMING or BROWN in the Perth Prison gives her birth year as ca 1841 and birthplace as Kilmarnock, Ayrshire.
The 1857 records in the NAS are for an Eliza FLEMING, native of Glasgow BUT it is interesting that the age of the 1857 Eliza was 17 - a match for the 1881 Eliza ...
AD14/57/52 Precognition against Eliza Fleming, Robert Speirs for the crime of theft 1857 This record is Open
JC26/1857/205 Trial papers relating to Eliza Fleming for the crime of theft. Tried at High Court, Glasgow 1 Oct 1857
Clicking on the reference numbers takes one to further information.
For the first reference:
Eliza Fleming, Age: 17, Address: Residing with Mrs Duffy, Tentine Close, Trongate, Glasgow, Origin: Native of Glasgow Robert Speirs, alias Campbell, Kenneth; Kilwinning, James, Age: 26, Address: Saltmarket, Glasgow, Origin: Native of Greenock, Renfrew
For the second reference:
Eliza Fleming, Verdict: Guilty, Sentence: Imprisonment - 12 months. Note: Pannel to serve sentence in the general prison at Perth.
Do you have other information (census entries, marriage record) for your Eliza?
Regards,
JAP
PS (Added later): I had a bit of a look and found Eliza 2 with her parents in Kilmarnock in 1841, her marriage to William BROWN in 1856, their children - first two (1857, 1859 in Tradeston Glasgow, the rest in Dunfermline). William (a joiner b Dunfermline) & Eliza and family in Dunfermline in 1861 and 1871. In 1881, when presumably Eliza was in the prison, William and 3 children are back in Tradeston Glasgow.
None of this helps with finding what Eliza did which landed her in prison but it's slightly interesting that your Eliza was actually in Glasgow in 1857 ...
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Hello,
Did you manage to find out about your relative who was in Perth prison?
I also have a relative William Brackenridge who was in Perth prison in 1881 but I have been unable to find out why. I have used http://www.nas.gov.uk/onlineCatalogue/
Please can you advise of the source that you used so that I can do the same for William.
Regards,
Colin.
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I am trying to use the search function on the Archives website to find my ancestor in Perth Prison but the search either won't change screens for me or i get nothing found.
Is there someone who would be willing to check for me? I feel so disconnected from these records being in the US!
William Thomson
in Perth Prison during the 1871 census
born about 1829
Thank you so much!
Amy Cargill
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Dear Amy,
Unfortunately my William Thomson was born in 1852 and was in Perth prison for the 1881 census. I know he wasn't there in either 1871 or 1891 because I have his census records for those years too. Accordingly to a very old family rumour (unsubstantiated) he was there for stealing sheep.
I find the National Archive website almost impenetrable and have wandered about it without success. It is Byzantine in it's complexity.
Regards,
Peter Bolton alias Jessie Thomson
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Thank you so much for your reply. I am glad to know that I am not just being dumb!
Amy
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Amy
Perth was a general prison and housed offenders from all over Scotland. Local newspapers might offer a better chance of finding out why your William Thomson was there. What other information do you have about him? Where was he from?
Isabel
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Hi Isabel,
Unfortunately, I have no access to local papers, much as I would love to get over there to look!
My ancestor's name was William Thomson, born about 1829 in Arbroath, St Vigeans Parish. I believe him to be the son of William and Elizabeth Thomson who lived at West Gremsby in the 1841 census. At age 14 he was listed as a flax dresser apprentice.
In 1861 he is found in the household of Matilda Monro at Rosebank, Rattray, Perthshire, listed as son-in-law. He is then found in 1871 in the Persh Prison. His occupation was give as powerloom tenter. In 1881 he is out again and living at 33 Sydney Street. In 1891 he is at 39 Sydney Street and his occupation is given as flaxdresser.
This is pretty much all that I know of him. He was apparently not actually married to Matilda Menmuir's daughter, Ann, although they had a child, William T. Menmuir who was born in 1860. Ann married George Cargill in 1868, assumably after William went to prison.
Thanks!
Amy
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I'm slightly confused ... are Matilda Monro and Matilda Menmuir the same person, or two different peple?
I looked in the Newspaper index in Perth Library, but did not find this William Thomson. I then started trawling through the "Perthshire Advertiser" working back from the date of the 1871 census through 1870, but still no mention of him. It's a slow job, and I have just realised I should probably have started a couple of years earlier, but don't worry, I found other things of interest to me, so it was time well-spent!
However, the library assistant suggested it would be better to contact NAS who hold the Convict Journals for Perth Prison (Ref. HH21/47/ ). Give them the details you posted here, as that gives a reasonable time period to check. The earliest records available date from Nov. 1867 - it's worth a try.
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I'm sorry! Yes, Matilda Munro and Menmuir are the same depending on the records you look at. Sometimes she even uses both names.
Thank you so much for checking but can you tell me...what is the NAS?
Thanks,
Amy
Pennsylvania, US
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NAS is National Archives of Scotland. www.nas.gov.uk/ (http://www.nas.gov.uk/).
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Thank you. I had no idea!
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Ah, once I got into that site I realized I have been there before. This is the site that is set up like a fortress that you cannot get through. I finally did find the catalogue listing for the records I am interested in but it looks like I would need to employ a professional searcher to find that one record. I have emailed them but have little hope of receiving any assistance.
Unfortunately I don't have the ability to visit the facility myself.
Amy
Pennsylvania, US
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Hi everyone,
I have an interest in this record as well... please could you help me gather the same information? I noticed it was a few years ago but any help would be appreciated :)
I will see if I can make the messages work as well.
Thanks in advance
Jodie
"I also found an ancestor in Perth Prison in the 1851 Census - Alexander Black aged 48 b1803 Liberton, Edinburgh. Unfortunately I too have been unable to find any information on why he should be there, he died in January 1878 in a Pit Accident in Fife.
Grandma
Hi Grandma
There is an Alexander Black junior,on NAS online,possibilty it could be your Alexander as sentence date fits with census date.
Fiona
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With the help of others I found this:
25th September 1850 - High Court, Perth
Alex Black Junior 20 coal hewer of New Forresters Row, Townhill Colliery, Dunfermline Alex Black Senior 47 coal hewer of same address:
Mobbing and Rioting 15 months in Perth Prison
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Thank you for the speedy response!
I appreciate your help :)
Thanks
J
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I have all the information in my files regarding the circumstances and will let you have them by PM if you like but you will need to post once our twice more in order for me to send you a personal message.
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Thank you :)
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Hello,
Did you manage to find out about your relative who was in Perth prison?
I also have a relative William Brackenridge who was in Perth prison in 1881 but I have been unable to find out why. I have used http://www.nas.gov.uk/onlineCatalogue/
Please can you advise of the source that you used so that I can do the same for William.
Regards,
Colin.
I have found the article today in the Scotsman dated 13 Nov 1880,
"Wm, Breckenridge (sic) pleaded guilty of forging the signature of his father and obtaining thereby sums of money from Mr Cairns, Union Bank, Gatehouse. He was sentenced to 9 months imprisonment"
Therefore he would be in prison at the census in 1881.
Tom