RootsChat.Com
General => The Common Room => The Lighter Side => Topic started by: silvery on Friday 20 June 08 20:58 BST (UK)
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Anyone got this person in their tree I wonder?
Hanged 1873 for 'disposing' of up to 21 of her husbands :o :o :o
ITV3 tonight 9pm.
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Probably not she seems to have killed most of them..... :o
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Ann_Cotton
Tazzie :o
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;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
so logical. TV blurb slightly different than wikipedia.
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Put that one up as it has her picture on it ....trying to scare oldest son to go to bed, :D
Tazzie
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The definitive books about her are "Mary Ann Cotton, Her Story and Trial" by Arthur Appleton, 1973, and "Mary Ann Cotton, Dead but not Forgotten" a supplement to that book by Tony Whitehead, 2000, ISBN0953961400
Stan
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They were not her 21 Husbands, she only had four, and one marriage was bigamous. There were children and women among her alledged victims. She was found guilty of 4 murders; not guilty of 7; and the other 10 were "not proven"
Stan
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I realise now Stan that the tv blurb that I quoted was a bit 'over the top' .
She must have been some sort of phsycopath I think.
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The book "Mary Ann Cotton, Dead but not Forgotten" has her family tree.
Stan
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She was found guilty of 4 murders; not guilty of 7; and the other 10 were "not proven"
Stan
Correction I should have said that she ws not found guilty of four murders, she was only found guilty of the single specimen charge of the murder of her stepson Charles Edward Cotton. The rest of the murder and bigamy charges were kept on the record just in case she was reprieved for the first one.
Stan
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I might get those books. I wonder if there's any of her family that wasn't bumped off by her still going.
What a person to have in your tree! Talk about black sheep!
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Her maiden name was Mary Ann Robson.
In the 1861 Census she is with William Mowbray, her first husband (m. 1852), in Haswell, Durham RG9; Piece: 3746; Folio: 44; Page: 39. William died 1865
In the 1871 Census she is with her fourth bigamous husband (m.1870) Frederick Cotton (transcribed as Colton) at Walbottle, Northumberland, RG10 Piece 5139 Folio 82 Page 33. Frederick died 1871.
Her second husband was George Ward, m1865, died 1866. Her third husband was James Robinson, m 1867, he survived :).
Stan
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She had an illegitimate daughter Margaret Edith Quick-Manning Cotton, born in Durham Jail 7th January 1873, GRO Ref. March ¼ 10a 435. There was also a son George Robinson, born 1869, who also survived.
Stan
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I had though (briefly) about trying to trace her. It would have been a nightmare :o That looks really good. I noticed from wikipedia that she bumped off her children without too much angst. But one was born who may have survived. Probably fostered/adopted out, if did survive.
Ahaaa, just saw you have posted on them.
I had a book from the library once about the Rosenberg sons. They changed their names etc.
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She is actually quite easy to trace, I have actually spent a bit of time doing it. The easist line to follow is from the path of George Robinson
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She is actually quite easy to trace, I have actually spent a bit of time doing it. The easist line to follow is from the path of George Robinson
She should be :) The book "Mary Ann Cotton, Dead but not Forgotten", by Tony Whitehead, has her family tree, and copies of Baptism entries and BMD certificates, census records etc.
Stan
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Hi all,
I was told in 2004 by my late mother in law that Mary Ann Cotton - killed someone!
I have just been working from notes taken then and looking at them again tonight.
I have just been doing a bit of online research and now know who she ment.
Wow, oh well. I was told that Mary Ann Cotton was related so how to the Hockworth family via Annie Pearson who was first married to Joseph Ramshaw. Her second husband was Teddy Hockworth. But I have just found a young lady online with the name Leia Hockaday and wonder if she is related to Ted?
I'm interested in the Ramshaw family as Annie and Teddy had two children- Annie gave them surnames Ramshaw not Hockworth, and Ted had 4 children to his first marriage.
So not sure what the connection is but my moter in law would not like knowing about Mary Ann Cotton if this is what she did.
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Programme on about her tonight 10th November on ITV3 9pm -10pm.
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what channel is that ITV 1 tyne tees area?
If so I'm in Oxford. Is it on freeview?
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what channel is that ITV 1 tyne tees area?
If so I'm in Oxford. Is it on freeview?
Yes, ITV3 is a digital freeview channel
Stan
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I missed it on tv but found it on the ITV website in their iplayer.
Will watch it later.
Thanks.
Vicky
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If anyone has already got a ciopy of the book by Tony Whitehead, is there any mention of the Hockaday/ Hockiday family? This would be very helpful to me, or any mention of any Crane family.
Regards
Vicky
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Mary Ann Cotton spent a brief time living in Murton Durham. My ancestors were living in the same small village at the time she was...they may even have known her!
Spooky!
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Mary Ann Robson (Cotton) lived in Murton for 14 years from 1838 (when she was 6) to 1852 when she married William Mowbray. In the 1841 Census the family lived at 25? Durham Place, Murton New Winning.
Stan
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http://naturalplane.blogspot.com/2008/11/seaham-cafe-owner-fears-serial-killer.html
Mary Ann Cotton seems to be hiding out in Seaham these days.
Vicky
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Hi, just came across this thread after researching Mary Ann Cotton online. Stan how do you find out your information? It's more detailed than what's online.
I seem to get the same old stuff on all the other sites I've looked on. Fascinating and unbelievable read though!
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I have the book "Mary Ann Cotton Dead, but not Forgotten" by Tony Whitehead.
ISBN 0953961400, which is a documentary history of her life, and a supplement to the book "Her Life and Trial" by Arthur Appleton. Apparently before Arthur Appleton's book the story of Mary Ann Cotton was extremely garbled, and he made some kind of chronological sense of her life.
Stan
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Yes I have both of those books. Tony Whitehead's is a good book, I really enjoyed reading it. The certificates and pictures make it much more interesting.
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So IS anyone related to her? !
More importantly, does anyone think she was guilty of all of the "murders" or does anyone think that she may have been poorly and needed some help? I think a lot of things, but I change my mind each time I read something else about her!
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Hi Withnail,
I have just got a copy of Tony Whitehead's book as well. It still does not answer the question for me of how Mary Ann Cotton is related to Edward Hockworth who I have been told was a relation.
Or to the Crane/Reed families who also lived in Seaham at the same time. I am searching the book for answers but until I go through the censuses one by one I don't think I will find out.
I am still looking for a Hockworth/Reed marriage.
Still digging.
Vicky
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Hey Vicky,
No I had a look through the book and couldn't see any links???
Did you see the Martina Cole programme about her? It was "interesting"!! (That's me being kind!)
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Hi Withnail,
Yes I taped it as well just incase was mentioned. MAC had two children survive her says the book. One was born while she was in prison. If you want any relatives it's worth researching these two children.
I did find a website online from a young lady who's surname was Hockiday and wondering if Hockworth was Hockiday instead. This lady does have a website about the MAC story.I can't remember if she had a contact details.
Vicky
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Here's a question.... has anyone researched Quick-Manning the supposed father of Mary Ann's baby?
I've looked into him and there is no record of him at all. No birth certificate and no death certificate. No family. I have tried all variations of the name and still nothing. I am thinking he didn't exist.
Any views on this?!
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He did have a profession. I will have to have a look at the book again. If he was a professional man he should of left some sort of paper trail. Maybe looking at offical records hidden away may find some proof he exisited. Or maybe you could write to the author of the book and see what he says.
What exactly have you researched maybe there is something missing.
Vicky
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http://shildonlynn.tripod.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/maryanncotton.pdf
John Quick- Manning Excise Officer some mention of West Auckland Brewery on this website.
Maybe looking at their records may find a mention of him.
Type in Quick-Manning into Google and see what come up.
Vicky
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This may help.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A4197585
Note where it says about a quarter down the page, that
"Mary Ann Cotton's childhood was not a happy one. Her father had died falling into a mineshaft when she was eight, and she only narrowly escaped the workhouse because her mother remarried. Leaving behind the hard discipline of her stepfather at the age of 16, Mary Ann brought with her the one valuable lesson that money had to keep on coming in, no matter what the method".
Mary Ann is estimated to have been born in autumn 1832, so it may be that her father was dead before the 1841 census was taken. Thus no records of him. Hmmmm I'm gonna have a wee scrounge for him too...
Reaybo :)
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This may help.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A4197585
Mary Ann is estimated to have been born in autumn 1832, so it may be that her father was dead before the 1841 census was taken. Thus no records of him. Hmmmm I'm gonna have a wee scrounge for him too...
Reaybo :)
Tony Whitehead's book has a facsimile of the page from the parish register showing her baptism 11th November 1832, and also the the page from the 1841 census showing her father and the rest of the family in East Murton.
Stan
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Here's a question.... has anyone researched Quick-Manning the supposed father of Mary Ann's baby?
I've looked into him and there is no record of him at all. No birth certificate and no death certificate. No family. I have tried all variations of the name and still nothing. I am thinking he didn't exist.
Any views on this?!
Were not double barrelled names very unusual at that time, except in the aristocracy? and there is no record of him in the 1871 census.
Stan
Stan
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John Quick- Manning died of Smallpox and Mary Ann Cotton was nursing him but then moved in her lover as well.
Should be able to find his death certificate. I will have to read the book a bit futher to see what it says about Quick-Manning.
We are not looking at the father of Mary Ann Cotton but the father of her 12th baby.
The book does list alot of the certificates already so just need to look at it again to see if the death for John Quick- Manning is shown.
Will report back later.
Vicky
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I can see that a few people have replied to my question, thank you!
I meant Mary-Ann's last surviving baby who was born in prison... Margaret. I know she was adopted and I know that it is said that her father was Quick-Manning/ Quickmanning.... however, just because Arthur Appleton said it was so does not make it true! I know Tony Whitehead has gone down the same route with this one, but I can't take it as gospel when there are no records of him.
Even the house he lived in in West Auckland won't hold any clues as he wouldn't be on the deeds... he was only a lodger.
I still believe he was fictional. I will look into the brewery idea though!
It's all very exciting. I love a good mystery!
Any more ideas? keep them coming!
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I'd be very interested in trying to find descendants to this woman!
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I thought about that, but then I thought, what would they know?
The boy was only young and went back to his father. The girl was only a very small baby when she was adopted. They were probably shielded from it, so they story was probably never passed on! Why would adopted parents tell their child something like that?!
What would our motivation be? !
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That's an interesting one too.... what does motivate us all to find out about her? Is it local history to the people who are living in the area she used to live in? Is it family? Is it morbid fascination?
There are more recent, more prolific 'murderers' to look up?
Fire away!
Oh and mine's a sort of perverted fascination.... if anyone's wondering!
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Hi Withnail,
I was told about her from my late mother in law. And she mentioned her a few years ago I just typed it up and printed it off. I was just looking though old notes and read it again and then put in the name Mary Ann Cotton on the internet. It was said by the mother in law that her grandmother's second marriage was to a man Edward Hockworth/Hockiday? And that he was connection some how to Mary Ann Cotton. When someone says that this person killed someone - you don't expect it to be 20-21 people. So mine interest in solving a family history matter.
But so far I can't see in Tony Whitehead's book any mention of the surnames Hockworht/Hockiday or Ramshaw. I really need to sit down and read it more carefully.
But I thought I might have found a clue or two but I think the nearest I'm going to get is where MAC lived and if she lived near to any family members of the families I am researching.
Vicky
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Adoption offically did not be noted until 1927 or so.
Not sure if there will be any records of adoption in Durham Archives. It's worth contacting them and asking. Check their website and email them direct. Someone should be able to answer the question. I'm sure they have records of MAC and would know more about her than we do.
You could also try finding the record of MAC in prison. They should be records of what happened to Margaret her daughter.
Vicky
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Hi
Adoption was noted from 1926 onwards. Before that it often was informal although there may have been arrangements made through a solicitor. Many relatives of unmarried mothers adopted their kin.
Ben
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Sorry to say this - but as Mary Ann Cotton killed off most of her family - we wonder who could of adopted Margaret?
As she killed off 21 of her own family.
Vicky
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All really interesting. Everyone knows so much!
I think what is especially interesting is that family usually adopted children. However, Like Vicky is alluding to... there was none of her family left in the end!! Maybe they were friends in the Sunderland area... but then again, she lived all over the place!
hmmm!
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"Sorry to say this - but as Mary Ann Cotton killed off most of her family"
she was only hanged for one!
hehe!
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Having looked at my copy of Tony's book tonight. I see that MAC had a choice of who her daughter Margaret was adopted by. It could of been her stepfather as he visited her just before she was hung.
The book also says that the decentants of Margaret and her half brother - the other sibling that survived, that they do not want to be known. But from that I take it Tony had found out who they where.
Also MAC was only with Quick-Manning for about 4 months working for him while he had chicken pox before she became pregant by him. Now you would think that this would hamper the child if it's father had chicken pox when conceieved and as mothers today are warned of the effects of not having the ingections before they get pregant. You would think that maybe Margaret had less of a chance of survival as a baby.
And another thing - when Tony in his books shows the birth certificate of baby Margaret - MAC has not added the father's name into that box - yet names her daughter after John Quick-Manning and with the surname Cotton as well.
Her lover dies 9 months before the birth of Margaret - this is so close Margaret could of still been his but because he has died and Quick-Manning is still alive at that time - she names Margaret after him instead. And Quick-Manning is thought to have taken this as an embarassment and left the area.
MAC is only with JQ-M for the money and a roof over their heads.
You're right - this is all just one big mystery.
Not sure if any of the census would show up John Quick-Manning living with MAC?
MAC also lies about her age when she is finally in prison and says she is 32 when in fact she turns 40 while in prison.
She also reverts back to signing her name with an X when there is other examples earlier of her signing her name in full.
So a father with chicken pox when she was concieved or MAC lover who was the lodger and an older mother! It's a wonder how Margaret survived?
Anyone still up to speed with this?
Vicky
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No one up to speed at the moment by the looks of it!!!
Has no one found out any more?
I've decided to look into my own family history instead of someone elses. Keep me posted if anyone makes any discoveries or if there are any new books due out soon! I could be swayed to regain interest!
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Hi withnail,
I'm the same afraid. Will still keep looking though.
Shall wave if I find anything.
Vicky
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Hi Bobdog,
Thank you so much for the info, as I am sure it will clear up a few questions for some researchers here but I'm afraid it does not answer my question, as I wanted to know how I connect to MAC via the person Ted Hockworth/Hockiday who married a lady with surname Ramshaw. If you know of any info to back this up I would be very greatful to hear more.
Regards Vicky
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Oh and Vicky,
there is an Edward Hockworth in the 1881 census in Yorkshire and he married an Ann if that's any help?!
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Hi matey Withnail,
Where abouts? Any further info would be greatful.
I will take a look anyway myself.
Thanks
Vicky
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Withnail,
It's Edward from Bradford and Ann his wife from Bedford?
This has not given me any clues as yet if it is link to what I was after but thatnks anyway I will follow it as much as possible as see what crops up.
Thanks for the heads up.
Regards
Vicky
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Yeah that's him. Said he was a coal labourer and was 33 in 1881. 2 Saville Green Leeds.
Oh well it was worth a try!
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Yeah that's him. Said he was a coal labourer and was 33 in 1881. 2 Saville Green Leeds.
Oh well it was worth a try!
Hi again,
It says on the verison I saw it said that he was a Labourer in a pit yard (almost same thing I guess). At least they also have a son called Edward as well which is problerly why he was known as Ted. It may link yet.
Regards
Vicky
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Yes, it said that they had 5 children! (one called Edward)
Happy researching!
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Didn't May Ann have a plaster cast taken of her face? I know this sounds morbid.... but can it be seen? I heard some of her belongings were in a museum. I also thought Durham Prison had a museum, but they don't.
Can anyone help with this?
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There's a picture of her in this article
http://www.capitalpunishmentuk.org/durham.html
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Hi Silvery,
I've seen photos of her and paintings of her. I am mainly interested in the plaster cast that was taken of her. I also heard that there were artefacts belonging to her onl display.
I have even been to the Heritage centre in Durham and have also called Durham Prison to see if they can tell me where to find them. Up to now, no luck though!?
Maybe I'm making it up!
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According to Tony Whitehead there is only one known photograph of her, which is reproduced in his book.
Stan
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Yes.... the one everyone uses. And the drawn/painted picture of her looking stern.
Not interested in those though!
I want to know where the plaster cast is! It's starting to bother me!!!!!
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Hi Withnail,
I hope it's not buried with her! lol.
Vicky
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i could be wrong but im sure theres a picture with her i standing at the hospital door the hospital was at the bottom of chester road it is now part of the university and has a nusery there .
neil
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yeah it's st mary's building. Haven't seen that pic.
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Vicky, I hope it's not either!
Still drawing a blank with the plaster cast of her head .... and now with the pic of her outside St Mary's Infirmary which is now St Mary's building on Chester Road, Sunderland.
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The infirmary was not called St. Mary's, that was the name of the Catholic School, which opened in the old building in 1902. After the Infirmary closed in 1867 it was sold to the Primitive Methodists who opened it as a Theological Training Institute in 1868.
Stan
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Well .... I only care about the plaster cast!!!
In Tony Whitehead's book... he says that there were two casts made. One was kept within the prison but lost, and the other has never been found.
Someone has them.... and I want to see them!
Someone knows where they are!
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Sorry Stan,
Don't mean to be rude. I just hate it when I can't find something I want!
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Surely a photo would have been taken of her for her prison record sheet? just like they did with the Northumberland prisoners. ???
Rewcastle.
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Dear Rewcastle,
I note with interest the messages concerning Mary Ann Cotton. Have a look at this excellent website address, it gives an insight into parts of her trial at Durham Crown Court in 1873, and also the last few minutes of her life before her execution. The extracts are from a biography written by an author who has paramount and unknown information concerning MAC. The manuscript is by all accounts over 427 pages and as yet unpublished, and relates information not known by Appleton or Whitehead in their books. By all accounts the author has to date collected, documents, photographs and other official documents to support this biography, all apparently new to this debate.
www.maryanncotton.co.uk
Regards
Bertram Gregson.
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hi bertram do you be long sunderland because i certain gregson from sunderland wrote a book tracing your northing ancesters.
regards neil
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I know it's not all up and running yet, but there's nothing new on this website
www.maryanncotton.co.uk
When is "the author's" book coming out? It's been a long time coming! ;)
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"Bertram" is the "author" who has paramount and unknown information going to shed any light on the death mask?!
Now that WOULD be information that Arthur Appleton and Tony Whitehead could not divulge!
Anything else would just be the same old gubbins regurgitated! This was her house..... in today's modernity the case would have been thrown out of a court of law ....... and so on.
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hmmm, I may take back my statement about the same old gubbins! The execution part on the website is very interesting. Some of the same old gubbins....but some very interesting information jazzing it up a bit.
Bertram... will the "author" be stating where his paramount information is coming from? Such as... how he knows Calcraft took the noose to London and sold it to Tussauds... or how he knows her shoes and shawl were buried with her?
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Dear Withnail,
I have read your last comments on the MAC website and your kind sentiments concerning the execution details. I have a connection to the author and proposed biography of MAC, and I can clarify your concerns. The information which is written within the manuscript, could not come from a better source, such as MAC's living relations, it is they who have the information which is otherwise unknown to Appleton or Tony Whitehead. It is therefore without doubt that the information is genuine and without reproach or such that the information should be questioned. There can be no question as to their recollections and comments, who apart from them can supply such comments, who on Roots chat can question their information, if they are not related. However I can state with accuracy that Calcraft took the rope with him to Hoxton London, he regarded the possession of the rope(s) after executions as being his property, it was as he stated many times "his perk" because he could sell the item of a notable criminal ie, the rope to a collector of exhibits. The rope which hung MAC was not within the coffin or attached to MAC's neck, whilst the Coroners Inquest was being conducted later that afternoon. This information is not questionable as it is recorded within Home Office documents. The Coroner stated quite clearly that Calcraft had the rope, and further to that we know that Calcraft did indeed sell the items to either Madame Tussauds or arranged collectors, he was noted for this action, as the Home Secretary and Department had known about this for many years. The shoes and shawl were also without doubt placed within the coffin, as later that afternoon at the inquest MAC's relation(s) identified her corpse, they took nothing away from her coffin. Durham Prison at that time in 1873 had a procedure in place which quite clearly was adopted by Calcraft. No prisoner would be executed with clothing which would in any way hinder the execution, ie the neck shawl. It is for reference that earlier the week before her execution, MAC's child was adopted by a childless couple from West Auckland, the shawl was ripped in half and the child was wrapped within it and taken from her arms and prison. Before her execution she left her condemned cell wearing the same dress which she had been arrested in, 1872. Her shawl was over her shoulders as she was escorted to the Gallows, she wore a hair net which kept her hair free from her face. Before the execution all items which would hinder the execution were removed. Indeed Durham Prison confirmed this fact in 2008. Also a point to mention is that the execution white hood was also taken by Calcraft, there is no mention whatsoever of this item, as the rope being present in the coffin. The death mask is another point, I have myself written to numerous academic institutes throughout the UK, they have no knowledge of the whereabouts of the mask, I also contacted the Black Museum, they as with the numerous institutes have no knowledge of the mask, so I assume personally that the mask is probably in a collectors hands. Probably the collector does not even know who the mask is from, but then again that is my own opinion. As for the information above, it is fully accurate and not in question, either the recollections of MAC's living relations are false or so called biographers are truthful, I know from my own experience, that family tales and recollections are far superior to the optimistic biographer. I hope withnail that this information will set your mind and thoughts on the path of truthfulness as being recorded by MAC's descendants, it is they who recollect the facts within the manuscript.
Bertram Gregson.
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Thanks Bertram,
It is good that her family will talk willingly about her.
Descendents of people who have allegedly murdered can feel guilt brought on by shame that they feel as well as ridicule from others... This shame is especially felt by descendents who are elderly.
As generations go by, I suppose the shame/ guilt factor wears off and that's how they can talk so freely about her.
As for the death mask... I think I'll have to give up on the thought that it could be found. I heard she was a beautiful woman and I thought that seeing her death mask might have shed some light on it.... but reading the description of when the hood was taken from her face, I am thinking the beauty may not have been evident anymore!
Thanks again
Withnail
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Dear withnail,
Many thanks for your comments and kind words, yes I fully agree with your comment of the death mask, I too would be very eager to see this mask. I too have heard that she was a beautiful woman, and was very recognizable, also her hair was said to be as black as raven's wings with a shimmering shine. I know that the author of the proposed manuscript, has many accountable details of her life, such as those gained from her descendants, it appears as though the author has traced her life from birth to death, and has dispelled many accounts which are too familiar on the internet or written statements which are far from the truth. The author I believe has based this biography on a re-write with the aim to establish the facts as they are recorded, with scientific evidence, and accounts taken from her own statements, witnesses, and home office documents, and newspaper reports of the day. I think the aim is not to specify categorically that she is 100% innocent, but to lay before the reader the actual evidence, and of the forensics, and of the details which had remained unknown, such as the disappearing evidences lost or not produced to Professor Scattergood in Leeds, when as the policeman who delivered it said it had and was signed for, it is evident that items were missing, as several were signed for and not exammined or logged as never being received. I like many research family history, it is said that MAC killed up to 15 members of her family in a short period. However a case in question (from the 1911 Census) concerning my research was, that an ancestor gave birth to 13 children, 9 of those children died in a short period of time. This is in itself not uncommon in the Victorian era, thousands of families throughout the UK suffered the same fate. My ancestors would turn in their graves if they were later suspected of murdering 9 of their children in a short time. So I think the author is trying to refresh the debate with new forensics and factual comments as recognised in our era.
Good to hear from you and thanks for your kind comments.
Bertram.
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I look forward to reading it! ;)
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Just came across this forum whilst searching for information on Mary Ann Cotton. I found out today that her 3rd husband James Robinson is my husbands 1st cousin 4 times removed so will wait with anticipation for the release of the new book.
So, I added her to my tree but I'm having a little trouble locating all her children.. anyone know where I can view her tree online?
Thanks...
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Does your husband and his family not mind you adding her to your tree?!!
Your tree has just become a whole load more interesting!!
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Does Tony Whitehead's book not have trees in it? I can't remember!
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The book "Mary Ann Cotton, Dead but not Forgotten" has her family tree.
Stan
Evie
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Dear Shelly64
Hello I have seen your comments on the website and I have found them to be very interesting, firstly have you viewed the website www.maryanncotton.co.uk you may find some of the information interesting to your background research into her life. As for your husbands relationship to MAC, then is it through her child born to James Robinson and his first wife
Hannah(nee Greenwell) Robinson b.c.1839-1866. This child William Greenwell Robinson was born in 1857. However a child born from the marriage of MAC and James was George Robinson 1869, if so then it is probable that your husband may be aware of the connection to MAC. If he can remember some of the old relations and their names, then this would be a starting point, for further investigation, as MAC's marriages and full family trees are noted and have been fully investigated and authenticated. If you can provide more detailed information (fully and concise) then I may be able to help you.
Kind Regards
Bertram Gregson
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Hi Bertram,
My husbands link to James Robinson is through his parents William Robinson and Ann Shepherd and not his children.. My husband was not even aware that MAC was in his tree.. Ha! and no withnail, he does not mind having her in his tree. His relationship to her is only through marriage after all..
I will check out the link you provided Bertram..
Thanks... Michelle
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Dear Michelle,
Many thanks for your return e-mail and for the information. I see that you mention your husband's relationship to James Robinson through his father William Robinson. Would I be correct in thinking that his father William, is the relation to James Robinson and his first wife Hannah Greenwell way back in the 1850's. Or is William descended from James Robinson and his marriage to MAC and their only son George Robinson b.1869 in Sunderland. I would be delighted if you could shed some light on this, as I will in all probability be able to help you and establish the family tree of Robinson and Mary Ann Cotton. Hope this answer is of help, and yes indeed the website of Mary Ann Cotton mentioned is very interesting and quite frank and honest.
Kind Regards
Bertram Gregson.
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hi all,
4 any1 who is interested iv just moved in2 mary ann cottons old house in west auckland about a month ago and boy there r some really strange things that goes on during the night.
The 1st week I moved in, I was awoken 1 night by a rattling of the walk in cuboard door which i always keep locked, the rattling went on 4 about a minute then stopped. Then i heard a squeek and a click, suddenly the cuboard door flew open with force, needless 2 say i jumped out of bed and went down stairs and slept on the couch. I sleep on the top floor which is reported 2 b marys old room, think she must b letting me no shes there and got her eye on me lol. Im back sleeping in the bedroom again now but not much has happend since. will keep u updated if anything else happens.
regards
Dazz666
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ooooh!!! The only "activity" I was aware of was in that cafe in Seaham where they claim she haunts it!
Which house is this then? Which street?
You'll have to keep a record of when it's happening. Have a seance and see what you could find out. I'd love to get in contact with her... although I'd probably s**t myself in the process!!
Keep us all updated on what's going on please!
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hi withnail
the street is called front street in west auckland its a 2 story house thats been painted blue on the front ya cant miss it. iv thought about a seance but dont want 2 invite something that wont leave and makes the situation worse. like i said its been quiet 4 now will have 2 c what happens round halloween time.
will keep ya all posted if anything happens
kind regards
daz666
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not sure if anyone else has come accross it.
Mary ann cottons daughter born just before her execution to quick manning is on freebmd
MARGARET EDITH QUICK MANNING (as christian name ) COTTON (as surname)
births march 1873 durham 10a 435
I cannot find her marriage under same name nor death.
Mary ann cotton had a brother about 3 yrs younger than her named Robert i believe . Marys father fell down pit shaft at Murton colliery and was killed when she was about 8 so a check on 1841 census might help, her father was Michael Robson
some of this i got from wikipedia, i checked it with other sources and most of it is correct.
As far as who adopted Margaret edith, i have no idea. i've tried looking for her on 1881 census with mary anns brother but no luck, mary anns step father was called george stott but she despised him so can't see him having her either as his wife was long dead.will let someone else3 look for her but i did however find an interesting article in sunderlandd echo, a local newspaper for the area mary ann came from
http://www.sunderlandecho.com/editors-choice/Fresh-evidence-could-clear-notorious.5378485.jp
happy hunting
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hi, to all looking for info on mary ann cotton nee robson here is some info on her & it is up to you to believe or not
arthur appleton the info in his book came from a very good man on mary
her father was killed down murton colliery & there is a death mask but i don't think it will surface just yet also there is a lot of info on mary still in murton but with a few family's don't speak to each other, it will stay hidden or burnt for these have there nose's that far up in the air and as mary cootons daughter, born in durham jail just was not given to any one this was all settled before her death
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Hi Armchair,
Your message is interesting, if not a little muddled in places!!
I've been wondering for a while about the death mask and whether anyone knows where it is. It would be better to know that a family member/friend has it (or even them) rather than it being in the hands of some collector or in a dusty cupboard of a museum.
"a lot of info on mary still in murton but with a few family's don't speak to each other, it will stay hidden or burnt for these have there nose's that far up in the air"
we have to be sensitive to the fact that the descendents of Mary Ann may be aware of this site and that some descendents may be older and therefore feel more greatly linked to the subject. It could be a sore point for them. Generations such as ours may not feel it quite as much, as it's more of an intrigue these days. People love gore! It's a shame that you say some of the family have their noses in the air... I'm not sure what this has to do with the mask though. This interests me.
The part about Mary Ann's daughter is common knowledge though.
Thank you for your reply
Withnail
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hi, michael robson the father of mary ann cotton more info
michael robson was killed while working above one of the shafts at murton winning, when the rope broke the date was 23 feb 1842 and he is buried at west rainton church yard
as for his daughter mary ann she was baptize at the same church also above on the same page some-one wrote that she was hung
as for how bonny she was my sister had the look of her and my niece is the double of mary ann cotton and they where both very good looking
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Hi Armchair,
Thanks for your quick reply again! I tried to message you but I don't seem to have that facility.
I was aware of the whereabout of Mary Ann's dad and I also know how he died. I was told that she was a beautiful lady... she must have been, to have had all of that male attention!
As for being sensitive to descendents' feelings .... I don't think I needed to tell you any of that! ;)
Can you verify that the death mask etc is in safe hands then?
Withnail
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Hi Armchair,
Thanks for your quick reply again! I tried to message you but I don't seem to have that facility.
Withnail
New members must make at least three postings before being allowed to use the PM facility.
http://www.rootschat.com/help/pms.php
Stan
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Stan ,
I've made loads... but only on this board because this is all Iam intereted in. Would I have to make them on other boards too???
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It doesn't even tell me whether people are online or offline anymore. I think it's my profile to be honest.
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Stan ,
I've made loads... but only on this board because this is all Iam intereted in. Would I have to make them on other boards too???
I see Stan is off line.
You would have to post on another board other than this one and the Totally Off Topic board as your posts will not count on there either. When you do get your posts to PM, you may have to send armchair your e mail as they won't be able to reply to you either.
Evie
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the death mask of mary ann cotton was last see at hartlepool in the basement of a museum or library
the last ones that visited mary ann in jail not her stepfather george stott, held the key they where well up in the chapel and church in murton i asked the daughter in-law of one but she said that she had not looked in his belongings, she has since died and her 3 children still have a lot to do with the church and I'm trying to find out where they are living. my 4th great grand father used to nurse mary ann cotton on his knee when she was a child as they all travel around as sinkers also in durham goal a book went missing on the burial places of the prisoners that where hanged and was kept by the vicars this info will be denied
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Thanks for your suggestion Evie. I'll see if it works.
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Hi Armchair,
Why has the mask ended up in Hartlepool of all places..... I wonder?
I hope it's being looked after. I would like to see it, although that sounds a little morbid and from the info on the Mary Ann Cotton website about how she looked after she was take down, it does not sound like we'd get a true picture of how she would have looked anyway. But it would be good to know that it hasn't been lost or even been put into the wrong hands.
As for the family who last visited her in prison... what do you mean " they held the key"? They held the key as to the situation of the mask and her belongings?
I don't think that the place where she is buried within the prison would be of any use to anyone anyway, would it? I hadn't really thought about that until now! Although that book sounds interesting. I wonder why they would deny having it?
Thanks for your reply
Withnail
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I was not aware that posts to the Lighter Side and, the Totally Off Topic don't count. Could not this topic be transferred to the Durham board, then all the posts will count. :)
Stan
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hi, evie are the douthwaites in your tree from south hetton if so it is possible that there is a clue with mary ann cotton yours armchair
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Hi armchair :)
To be honest I am not up to speed with my Douthwaites. From what I can see at a glance they were from Yorkshire in the early 1800's then moved towards Houghton Le Spring, Ryhope, West Auckland and Brandon and Byshottles. There are some I haven't looked at yet within the family group.
Was there a specific time window you were looking at or a name?
Thank you
Evie
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Hi Vicky,
We have spoke on GenesReunited before, Im the great grandson of Elizabeth Ramshaw (nee Pearson).
I was going to attend Edna's funeral but had to work but my mother (edna's cousin) went. Edna, is correct, her granmother, my great grandmother was at first married to Joseph Ramshaw and then later married Edward (Ted) Hocksworthin 1926. However i dont know if its correct that the last two children Elizabeth had were Hocksworth's and not Ramshaw's. My grandmother was the last child born by Elizabeth and it would make Edward and not Joseph Ramshaw my Great grandfather. My grandmother's birth cirtificate does state Joseph Ramshaw. But who knows, i have heard that joseph was lost in WW1 at some point and my grandmother was born in 1922!!! so im confused to say the least.
I had never even heard of Mary Ann Cotton but would be interested to find if their is a connection.
Regards Rob
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Hi Rob,
Yes of course I remember you. It was Edna who mentioned that MAC was related to her family tree which was the Ted Hockworth. I have since been told about him in the census but as yet I have not followed this up.
To Withnail - I have just been reading and catching up with the goings on here and wondering if Michelle could leave out a list of messages and see if MAC leaves any replies. That would be interesting. See if MAC can answer any of our questions - if Michelle has not sold the house and left by now.
This is weird as I know Hartlepool very well. I will ask my friends there, one works for the museum service to see if MAC death mask is still there. I have to just follow this up as it will be so spooky.
Still very interested to see if I can work out my link to MAC and glad to see this thread is still buzying with messages.
Rob - always good to hear from you. PM me soon.
Regards
Vicky
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http://www.dur.ac.uk/4schools/Crime/Crimeintro.htm
Mary Ann Cotton for school children history.
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http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/notorious_murders/women/cotton/1.html
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http://www.fortunecity.com/roswell/hammer/73/cotton.html
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Ann_Cotton
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http://hubpages.com/hub/Famous-Serial-Killers-Mary-Ann-Cotton
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http://www.maryanncotton.co.uk/index.html
I am just wondering if any of these websites have any new details.
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http://www.watfordobserver.co.uk/news/263745.the_story_of_mary_ann_cotton_a_frail_dressmakers_poisonous_past/
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http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/notorious_murders/women/women1/4.html
Ok now she even killed of a neighbours pig.
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Some information for everyone interested in this topic and answers a few questions posted previously.
IGI
MARY ANN ROBSON
Christening: 11 NOV 1832 W, Rainton, Durham, England
Father: MICHAEL ROBSON
Mother: ISABELLA
Maybe Michael married for a 2nd time?
Brother Robert
IGI
ROBERT ROBSON
Birth: 05 OCT 1835 E, Rainton, Durham, England
Father: MICHAEL ROBSON
Mother: MARGARET
1841 census – Mary Robson is living with father Michael Robson, (possible) mother, Margaret (Margrit) and brother Robert in East Murton. Michael is recorded as being a Tinker. (Many reports say he was a miner when he died). He must have died before Margaret Robson remarried, so was not a Miner for very long. HO 107/311/8
Marriages Sep 1843
ROBSON Margaret Easington 24 82
STOTT George Easington 24 82
1851 Census shows George Stott is a Miner at Murton Colliery and Mary Ann Robson is recorded to be aged 18. (Many reports, including Wikipedia, state that Mary Ann’s mother, Margaret, married Robert Stott – Also that Mary Ann left home at the age of 14). Maybe she returned home for some time. Mary’s birth location is identified as West Rainton.
1861 Census shows Mary Ann (now Mowbray) living with husband, William, and daughter Isabella (same name identified as her mother in the IGI record) at Public House in South Hetton. Identifies William as being a Stocker. Living next door is George and Margaret Stott. If Mary did not like living with her stepfather (as some reports identify) then why live next door?
1871 census shows Mary Ann living in Walbottle with husband Frederick Cotton with children Frederick, Charles and Robert. Birth location is identified as West Rainton.
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hi toprobate welcome to rootschat and this intresting topic.
neil
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I wonder if those of you who have read the book "Mary Ann Cotton, Dead but not Forgotten", by Tony Whitehead or watched the Ladykillers on TV have any evidence to show that Mary Ann Robson's mother was Margaret. The Ladykillers constantly refers to Margaret as her mother.
I believe from my previous postings that her mother was actually Isobella. Maybe a new theory but one that should have been investigated by the author of the book and by the TV programme, as I believe the evidence that they use leaves doubt. Someone mentioned that the book shows her birth registration. Maybe they would reproduce what they claim is evidence of her birth to Margaret and Michael.
Maybe someone can prove me wrong? :)
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Update on my earlier comment about Michael Robson being a Tinker. Many apologies but the word is Sinker not Tinker.
(SINKER. A skilled man who contracted to sink new shafts.)
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In Tony Whitehead's book, it shows what looks like a photocopy of the actual Baptismal Register, West Rainton 1832, Rainton Chapel Houghton le Spring : Nov 11th 1832 child Mary Ann, Daughter of Michael and Margaret Robson, abode Low Moorsley.
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Thank you Glitterlamp.
IGI seems to have it wrong
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I did see the entry you mentioned on the IGI and it does say mother ISABELLA, however, I don't know where the information comes from on the IGI. I am sure there are many on this forum that will know the answer to that one. Tony Whitehead's book has photocopies of certificates, census, etc which makes it an interesting read.
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Hello All
I came across this thread and wondered if there was anyone else here researching the Mowbray's of Durham (my family) to figure out where William Mowbray fits in. MAC's William seems not to be a direct ancestor of mine - but perhaps he was a cousin or brother of my lot. My direct is William Mowbray b. 1790 Chester le Street, Durham d.1871. The family were all miners or stonemasons. Does anyone have info on MA's first hubby?
Lee
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Hello all!
I'm fascinated with Mary Ann Cotton's story; I've jotted down the names of her parents (though there seems to be some controversy about her mother's Christian name) and the names of her four husbands.
I wanted to trace the names of all her children with their dates (at least year) of birth and death. It's all very confusing because there seems to be a mix up of children, step-children and so on.
So far I've traced these children:
(1st marriage to William Mowbray, married 1852, died 1865), several children, one called Isabella, which could suggest that Mary Ann's mother was called Isabella (or Margaret Isabella and used both names), or else different people called knew her by one name and other people by another (I know several cases).
(2nd marriage to George Ward in 1865, he died in 1866); haven't managed to trace any children. ???
(3rd marriage to James Robinson, who survived; he was the widower of Hannah Greenwell, who if I understood correctly was killed by Mary Ann; married in 1867): at least one child called George, born 1869. He appears to have survived. There was a William Greenwell Robison from James' first marriage to Hannah, born in 1857.
(4th marriage to Frederick Cotton in 1870, died in 1871); they are listed in the census as living with three sons, but I don't know if they are all Frederick and Mary Ann's or come from previous marriages: Frederick, Charles and Robert.
To the total children we add the illegitimate and mysterious Margaret Edith Quick-Manning Cotton, father unknown, born in Durham prison in 1873, shortly before her mother was hanged (no doubt the hanging was delayed till Mary Ann had given birth; Margaret Edith was born in January 1873, so we presume that Mary Ann became pregnant around March 1872; where was she at the time?
As for the Quick-Mannings, there is a John Q-M who died of smallpox under Mary Ann's charge, but I don't know when.
Can anyone forward the names of the other children? Please, corrections are welcome!
Regards!
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Hi.
Her family tree is online and can also be found in Tony Whithead's book as well as other books published about her.
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Also ... there is no John Quick Manning ( even with variations in spelling). No birth or death certificate. He didn't exist! Can anyone prove this to be wrong, because I'd love to see it?!
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Hello Withnail,
I live abroad and haven't found the book for sale where I live. Can you give me the link to see the family tree please?
Thanks!
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Hi,
Sorry i looked online and I can't seem to find it :( Children she bore are definitely listed online. Someone who has the book will more than likely list them. I have the book but it's in the glove box of my mam's car!
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Hi,
I too have always been fascinated by Mary Ann Cotton. My ancestors were neighbours of hers in the first street she lived in when she arrived in West Auckland, before she moved to the house in Front Street. One of my relatives helped Arthur Appleton when he was researching his book on Mary Ann
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Mary Ann Cotton's surviving daughter named Margaret Edith Quick Manning Cotton born in January 1873 was adopted by William & Sarah Edwards. She took their surname and is listed in the 1881 census as Margaret Edith Edwards aged 8.