RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Topic started by: melpractise on Thursday 19 June 08 15:33 BST (UK)
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Hi,
My mum and I are starting on our journey to find out where we came from. We only seem to be able to go back to george edward saunders b aug 1927. All we know is his father (whom we were told was Herbert Saunders) was jailed for bigamy. We're having trouble finding who he was - perhaps saunders was not his legal name? George was sent to an orphanage when he was 7 (1934??) He wasnt adopted but returned to his mother at some stage. Married Marjorie Rose richardson and had 5 chn (lived in brighton) One of which as my mother born 1950. Emmigrated to western australia 1960's.
I want to know if there is somewhere I can find court/legal documents re bigamy around 1934 to see who he was. Does any one know where I can start.
Thanks
Mel
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Welcome Mel!
I hope that you will visit us often and make lots of progress with your research! Please be sure to register your surnames on our surname interests table.
http://surname.rootschat.com/
The simplest way to start your journey may be to find George Edward SAUNDERS' birth certificate. This will entail going through the GRO indexes. These record all births/marriages and deaths from 1837. They are available online pay to view and by subscription at Findmypast.com & Ancestry.co.uk. They are also freely available at all LDS Family History Centres worldwide. A partial free index is available at FreeBMD.
http://www.findmypast.com/welcome.jsp
http://www.ancestry.co.uk/
http://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/search.pl
http://www.familysearch.org/Eng/Library/FHC/frameset_fhc.asp
Once you have the reference number, you can order certificates online.
http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/
However, it may be safer to get George's marriage certificate first just in case he wasn't registered as a SAUNDERS. This should give his father's name and occupation.
Rick :)
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http://www.naa.gov.au/collection/recordsearch.aspx
- has the ship listing for George Edward, Marjorie Rose, et al.
There no George E. Saunders in Sep quarter 1927. There is a registration in Brighton in Dec quarter 1927 (allow up to six weeks from the birth, so if they didn't register his birth until October it would be in Dec quarter).
It is:
George E. Saunders, Brighton district, September Quarter, Vol 2b page 224.
(Mother's maiden name McLanahan?).
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(Mother's maiden name McLanahan?).
Nice clear copy of this page on FindMyPast - it's McLenahan
Anna :)
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Hi Mel,
Welcome to RootsChat :)
I found these births...
Frederick W SAUNDERS Jun Q 1926 Brighton 2b 258
mother's maiden name: MCLENAHAN
George E SAUNDERS Dec Q 1927 Brighton 2b 224
mother's maiden name: MCLENAHAN
and this marriage...
Ellen B MCLENAHAN Dec Q 1923 Brighton 2b 637
Herbert W SAUNDERS with same details.
Regards
Daisy
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Ellen B MCLENAHAN
I wonder whether she's the same person as in this birth registration?:
Bertha Ellen MCLENAHAN Mar 1894 Brighton 2b 237
Modified: I think she may be 8 yr old Nellie McLenahan in Brighton in 1901, daughter of James and Catherine: RG13/923/92/26
Anna
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Hiya Mel
Welcome to Rootschat!
On the 1901 census we have if Daisy has the right marriage
at 30 Quebec Street Brighton
Charles H Saunders 33 head b Hastings canvasser for mineral water
Annie L Saunders 32 wife b Keymer
Charles H Saunders 10 son Brighton
Ellen S Saunders 9 dau b Brighton
Edith M Saunders 7 dau b Brighton
Herbert W Saunders 6 son b Brighton
Maud M Saunders 4 dau b Brighton
RG13/923 Folio 145 Page 30
You will need Georges birth certificate and the marriage certrtificate of his parents to confirm that this is the right family but I think it stands a good chance its them
Willow x
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;D Wow thank you all. The sites and information you have offered is just amazing. It appears that we have found the start of our family. It sounds like we are definately on the right track with the right people. My mother recognises some names as uncles etc too. I spent soooo long trying to get basic information with no results. I am very happy to subscribe but needed to know which sites to go to. This is so exciting.
A huge thank you once again
Mel
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???
(blush) Now I just feel silly but I would like some help please. How do I conduct searches (successfully). I've subscribed to ancestory uk site but am unable to find any of my families birth records in the register. I know they have to be there as you all gave me the information here.
I'm obviously doing something very wrong - any advice/help would be very, very, very much appreciated
mel
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For later records, often the names haven't been indexed. You need to look at the original images - so for George E Saunders in Dec 1927 quarter, you have to go to 1927 births, December quarter, then look for S, then find the correct image.
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;D
Thank you sooooooo much. I didn't know you could do that. I thought I had to use the index search. I found my grandad- What a buzz.
Thanks again
Mel ;D
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I have come across new information. I have been informed by my grandfather's sister that she thinks their father wasn't Saunders but Herbert William Harris born in battersy London (spelling????). He married first and had a daughter named beatrice then married in 1923 as Saunders to my great grandmother and had Jim, bill, Joan Edward and Peggy. 11 yrs later had molly. Jim, Joan and Ted were sent to warren farm (around 1933) when their father was imprisoned for bigamy. Peggy (diphtheria) and bill (polio) stayed with their mother.
Where can I find details regarding their placement at warren farm and/or bigamy records on line. Also, numerous Harris bmd entries - how can i ascertain a likely match?????
thanks
mel
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The birthplace is probably Battersea, in SW London (originally Surrey).
http://www.mybrightonandhove.org.uk/page_id__9064_path__.aspx - has some information on Warren Farm School/Warren Farm Industrial School. There will not be any records online for that, I'd imagine - especially not for the 1930s. You should try contacting the East Sussex Records Office to see what information they hold, they may have surviving school records:
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/archon/searches/locresult_details.asp?LR=179
For finding Herbert, I suggest you get that 1923 marriage (details further up-thread), as at least that will give you an age for him, and perhaps some information on his father.
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Hi,
My mum and I are starting on our journey to find out where we came from. We only seem to be able to go back to george edward saunders b aug 1927. All we know is his father (whom we were told was Herbert Saunders) was jailed for bigamy. We're having trouble finding who he was - perhaps saunders was not his legal name? George was sent to an orphanage when he was 7 (1934??) He wasnt adopted but returned to his mother at some stage. Married Marjorie Rose richardson and had 5 chn (lived in brighton) One of which as my mother born 1950. Emmigrated to western australia 1960's.
I want to know if there is somewhere I can find court/legal documents re bigamy around 1934 to see who he was. Does any one know where I can start.
Thanks
Mel
Hi Mel,
Have you solved the problem yet of Herbert William Saunders origins yet, as I have not seen the correct full response in any of the reply posts? He was born 1884 as Herbert William Mewett in Battersea. He first married Minnie Avery 1908 in Brighton. They did have a daughter, Beatrice Mabel in 1906 Brighton. He then married Bertha Ellen Mclenahan in 1923 while Minnie was still alive. I have a lot more detail, but rootschat may not be the easiest place to discuss all that you wish to know. Is it possible to send me your email address through here? Darryl Mewett
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Hiya Darryl and Mel
Welcome to Rootschat Darryl
Please dont post an e-mail address on the site as you may end up with loads of spam you can PM each other and send it that way but Darryl will need to stick a couple more posts up for it to become active for him
and if you ever can tell us the full story (without mentioning living people) we would love to know
Willow x
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Hiya Darryl and Mel
Welcome to Rootschat Darryl
Please dont post an e-mail address on the site as you may end up with loads of spam you can PM each other and send it that way but Darryl will need to stick a couple more posts up for it to become active for him
and if you ever can tell us the full story (without mentioning living people) we would love to know
Willow x
Hi Willow,
Thanks for the advice. Darryl7
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Hi my grandfather was Herbert William Saunders and was a bigamist. He illegally married my Nana, Georgina Anne Rustigini. They adopted my mum in 1945. By then Herbet or Bill as he liked to be called was in his 60's. I'm not sure where he originally was from only he owned the 1st Butchers in Lichfield, staffs.
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I'm very confused by all this. I was under the impression that Minnie Mewett (nee Avery) married Alfred Hunt in 1919??? So if this was the case why was Herbert William charged with bigamy and not Minnie as well??? Maybe they divorced. Can someone please explain. Maybe I have the wrong information. Thanks. Susan
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What did the marriage certificate of 1919 state as to Minnie's previous names, father's name and her marital state?
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Hi Mel and Darryl are you going to go down the DNA line too
That can lead to discovering family names of more distant ancestors .
Do let us know your progress + welcome to rootschat from me too.
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A family tree suggests that Minnie died in Scotland. This is the indexing, I haven't looked at the death cert.
MEWETT, Minnie
AVERY, Minnie
HUNT, Minnie
Aged 77
1964
685/1 16
Haymarket
Minnie may not have been around when Herbert was tried in 1927, she is not with him in 1911. For Minnie to be charged someone would have to find out and dob her in. It really depends on how long they had been apart by 1919. It is unlikely that a person would be charged with bigamy if seven years had passed and they had no knowledge that a spouse was still living. Clearly Herbert knew that Minnie was still living if he didn't use that argument.
I cannot see a newspaper report, but it would be interesting to know how Herbert was found out.
Debra :)
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In 1938 Herbert was found guilty of bigamy and sentenced to 5 days.
He claimed that he married in 1905 (Norah Abbott) and separated in 1928.
He told the police himself of the bigamy.
Do not think he was very good at telling the truth.
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I thought that was a different person, Herbert and Ellen Bertha are together in 1939 with their children.
Debra :)
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Just thought there were lies going on all the time as did not occur to me that there would be two of them.
OK.
Will stick to my other queries.
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Its not impossible that he could have married another woman first. I think several bigamists are multiple offenders .
What are the chances of two different Herbert SAUNDERS being tried for bigamy .
Darryl do you know of any other marriages ?