RootsChat.Com
Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: velcro on Thursday 19 June 08 12:34 BST (UK)
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Hi
Seeking assistance with any lookup information of birth, death marriage, census records of the following persons.
Aiming to find their parent's countries of origin as no family info on their origins as yet.
Victor Edward Pratt b. 1908 Dunkeld Victoria m.1931 Nena Pearl Charman b. 1909 Windsor Victoria
son of drt of
William Edward Pratt m. Margaret Cloonan Herbert Henry Charman m. Alice Ethel Hermon
Cheers
Velcro
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Hi
From Australian Electoral Records 1900-1936
1909
PRATT William Bushy Creek, Glen Thompson Labourer
PRATT Margaret Annie Bushy Creek Home Duties
1919
PRATT William Horsham Road, Stawell West Labourer
PRATT Margaret Annie Horsham Road, Stawell West Home duties
1924 both at Dimboola and William is now a contractor.
1931
PRATT Victor Edward High Street Dimboola Labourer
PRATT Margaret High Street Dimboola Home Duties
PRATT Nena Pearl George Street Dimboola Home duties
PRATT William Dimboola Contractor
PRATT William Lawrence High Street Dimboola Labourer
PRATT Desmond John High Street Labourer
1936
PRATT Victor Edward Donald Railway Employee
PRATT Nena Pearl Donald Home duties
PRATT Margaret Ann High Street Dimboola Home duties
PRATT Elizabeth High Street Dimboola Home duties
PRATT William Lawrence High Street Contractor
I have given you the other PRATT names on the electoral roll at Dimboola...probably relatives as only a small country town.
Cheers
cando
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I have pm'd the births to William Edward John PRATT and Margaret CLOONAN - the are two registrations for each birth as some were registered as late at 1926.
Purchase of one of the birth certs would give you more information about the parents.
Cheers
Cando
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and a bit more....
Birth
CHARMAN Nena Pearl
Father Herbt Hy Mother Alice Ethel HERMON
at Prahran 1909 Reg# 13746
Marriage
CHARMAN Herbt Hy Born Narre Warren
HERMON Alice Ethel Born Sunbury
1908 Reg#2487R
Births
CHARMAN Herbert Henry
Father George Mother Jemima HARBROW
at Dandenong 1882 Reg# 15320
HERMON Alice Ethel
Father James Mother Fanny Elizabeth DAY
at Sunbury 1879 Reg# 26161
Marriage
CHARMAN George born Sydney
HARBROW Jemima born Brighton
1867 Reg# 2536
Births
HARBROW Jemima
Father William Mother Elizabeth
at Brighton 1847 Reg# 20047
Denomination Church of England
http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/familyHistory/search.htm
V18481868 33A/1848
CHARMAN George
Father Thomas Mother Sophia
Parish ST ANDREWS, BRIGHTON
Fiche 314
http://www.records.nsw.gov.au/archives/keyname_search_2187.asp
Passenger record -
CHARMAN George Aged 26 Morayshire Year 1856 Reel 2138, 2474
Cheers
cando
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Hi,
Burial information.
At Dimboola Cemetery.
Pratt. Margaret Ann. b. 1873 d. 1947@68
Pratt. William Edward. b. 1876 d. 1940 @64
Pratt. Elizabeth. b. 1913. d. 1947 @36
Sue
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Victor Edward PRATT died in 1980 reg no 10879 at WEND age 71
Father Edward mother Margaret Ann
regards Jenn
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Kelvin Victor PRATT died aged 30 in 1962 at Fitz reg no 25191
father Victor Pratt mother Nena Charman
regards Jenn
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As per Sparret's Dimmboola findings here is the registration detailsWilliam
Edward PRATT died aged 64 in 1941 at Dimboola reg 15593
father John Salisbury PRATT mother Mary Anne GODWELLS
Margaret Ann PRATT died aged 67 in 1941 at Dimboola reg no 19129
father Lawrence CLOONAN mother Cath KENNY
Elizabeth Pratt died in 1947 aged 34 at E BWK reg no 7130
father William PRATT mother Ann CLOONAN
regards JEnn
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Herbert Henry CHARMAN died in 1956 aged 73 at BENT reg no 8277
father George Charman mother Jemina Harbrow
Matthew David CHARMAN died in 1958 aged 85 at DAND reg no 22303
father Geore Charman mother Jemima Harbrow
Norman CHARMAN died in 1960 aged 71 at HEID reg no 6142
father George mother Jemima HARBROW
Martha May WOOLLARD died in 1953 aged 66 at DNONG reg no 18422
father George CHARMAN mother Jemima HARBROW
regards JEnn
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Jemima CHARMAN died aged 84 in 1933 at DNONG reg no 12505
father William Hardbrow mother Elizabeth Tester
Regards Jenn
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Australian Electoral Records 1900 -1936
1909
CHARMAN Herbert Henry 46 Earl Street, Prahran Tram employee
CHARMAN Alice Ethel 46 Earl Street, Prahran Home duties
1914
Both at 4 Station Street east, Brunswick and Herbert is Railway employee
1919
Both at 40 Wesbourne Street, Balaclava and Herbert is a Railway employee
1931
Both at Ellenmen Street, Dimboola and Herbert is a Railway employee
1936
Both at 420 Doveton Street, Ballarat and Herbert is a Railway employee.
cando
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More on the PRATT line
Marriage
PRATT William Edward born Hamilton
CLOONAN Margaret Ann born Ararat
1906 Reg# 4785
I am unable to find a birth registration for William Edward PRATT with father John at Hamilton.
I can see numerous births to Lawrence CLOONAN and Cath KENNY commencing in 1878 but none with the name Margaret Ann.
Could be a passenger record for Lawrence CLOONAN
http://www.access.prov.vic.gov.au/public/PROVguides/PROVguide050/PROVguide050.jsp
On Assisted -
CLOONAN Lawrance 22 SEP 1858 CONWAY 11A 217
CLOONAN Lawrence 22 SEP 1858 CONWAY 13 253
If sks could have a look at the fiche it may give you more information.
The few CLOONAN marriages on the Pioneer Index all show place of birth as Ireland.
Cheers
cando
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Dear Cando
Thanks again. All this info from yourself and other researchers will keep me very busy. Much appreciated.
Velcro
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Hi
Thanks to all researchers for the below info. It will keep me very busy and put a big smile on my aunt's face with all this great info. She will be so greatful to have obtained further records of her ancestors.
Cheers
Velcro
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I can see numerous births to Lawrence CLOONAN and Cath KENNY commencing in 1878 but none with the name Margaret Ann.
Cheers
cando
Is this a possible ???
Margaret Ann CLOUNAN born 1872 Moys Reg no 25217
Father-Lawrence Mother-Catherine Kenny
Raylen
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A number of Children born to Lawrence Cloonan and Cathering Kenny
I have left the surname as it shows on the index
CLOUNAN Patrick
Father: Laurence Mother: Catherine KENNY
Birth Place MOYS 1871Reg Number: 18420
CLOUNAN Margaret Ann
Father: Lawrence Mother: Catherine KENNY
Birth Place: MOYS Reg Number: 25217
CLOUNAN Catherine
Father: Lawrence Mother: Catherine KENNY
Birth Place: MOYSTON 1874 reg no 10918
CLUNAN Sarah
Father: Laurence Mother: Catherine KENNY
Birth Place: DONA 1876 reg no 8736
CLOONAN James
Father: Lawrence Mother: Catherine KENNY
Birth Place: DO NA 1878 reg no 8456
CLONAN Maria
Father: Laurens Mother: Cath KENNY
Birth Place: LAEN 1880 reg no 23537
CLUNAN Daniel
Father: Lawrence Mother: Catherine KENNY
Birth Place: LAEN 1882 reg no 17286
CLOONAN Francis
Father: Lawrence Mother: Catherine KENNY
Birth Place: LAEN 1884 reg no 18128
CLOONAN Lawrence
Father: Lawrence Mother: Catherine KENNY
Birth Place: LAEN 1886 reg no 19563
CLOONAN John
Father: Lawrenc Mother: Catherine KENNY
Birth Place: LAEN 1888 reg no 21896
CLONAN Fran Father: Lawrence Mother: Cath KENNY died aged 1 in 1886 reg no 1174
regards Jenn
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Marriage details
Surname: CLOUNAN Laurence born Tipperary married Catherine Kenny born Adelaide in 1870 reg no 3898
regards Jenn
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As if the poor woman didn’t have enough children allready
More births two sets of twins
CLOONAN Bridget Elizabet
Father: Lawrence Mother: Catherine KENNY
Birth Place: LAEN 1893 reg no 14286
CLOONAN Stephen
Father: Lawrence Mother: Catherine KENNY
Birth Place: LAEN 1893 reg no 14285
CLOONAN Teresa
Father: Lawrence Mother: Cath KENNY
Birth Place: LAEN 1895 reg no 4794
CLOONAN Veronica
Father: Lawrence Mother: Cath KENNY
Birth Place: LAEN 1895 reg no 4793
Death
Lawrence CLOONAN died aged 73 (?) in 1908 at Watchem reg no 12135
Father: Cloonan Jas
Mother: Sarah HOWARD
Catherine CLOONAN died aged 81 at Watchem in 1933 reg no 17097
father Daniel Kenney mother Catherine Ledwith
by the Electoral the family were Farmers
regards Jenn
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Now we are starting to find where your ancestors came from :)
From the Biographical Index of South Australians 1836-1885
I use the index as a guide only as it is not alway 100% accurate.
KENNY Daniel Parents John Daniel and Mary nee WHITE. He was born at Six Mile Bridge, County Clare, IRELAND. Daniel died 16 Jul 1895 at Benyena Victoria and is buried at Burrum Burrum, Vic.
He arrived in South Australia in 1845 on the HENRY from Tasmania; departed for Victoria after 1863.
His occupations were Labourer and Farmer. He lived at Morphett Vale, Gawler Plains, Peachey Belt.
Religion was Roman Catholic.
He married on 28 Oct 1846 at Morphett Vale, SA Catherine nee LEDWIDGE whose father was James. She was born c1826 and died 24 Jun 1919 at Pier Millan, Vic. She is buried at Nandaly, Vic.
Children
Martin John [1847-c1916], John Martin [1850-1905], Mary DUFFY [1851-], Catherine CLOONAN [1854-], Elizabeth [1856-], Elizabeth HOLOHAN [c1857-c1943], Bridget COOLEY [1859-1953], Ann D[21] James, Daniel, Michael [c1870-1938]
I can't see a birth registration for Catherine in the SA Indexes - first birth reg was for younger sister Elizabeth.
Shipping records
http://www.familyhistorysa.info/shipping/passengerlists.html
KENNY Daniel arrived 1845-03-25 on Henry (2) from Launceston [Source:6,7]
http://portal.archives.tas.gov.au/menu.aspx?search=2
KENNY Daniel Passenger Henry 19 March 1845 Departed George Town To Adelaide Ref CSO95/1/1 p258
Cheers
Cando
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Great Stuff Cando
unravelling a family history good fun
in Victoria
Micheal Kenny born 1868 at Merino reg no 18285
father Daniel Kenny mother Catherine LEDWITCH
Patrick Kenny born and died within two day at MOYS in 1870
father Daniel Kenny mother Catherine LEDWITH
regards JEnn
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Hi All,
Goodness me! We certainly do need to be alert to a wide variety of spelling errors in our records don't we ???
Cloonan to Clunan. Ledwidge to Ledwith and all possibilities in between ::)
In case you have not seen service records for your VICTOR EDWARD PRATT, you might like to look.
It seems he enlisted twice, first in the Army in 1938 and was still living at Dimboola then with NINA as Next of Kin.
This is nice digitised record and I always think it is quite wonderful to get a physical description of your ancestors and see an actual signature too. [Your man was tall for the times!]
You can see these on this digitised record here........
http://www.naa.gov.au
Search as a guest and put the name in keywords.
He next joined the Airforce in 1940. Again he is at Dimboola with NINA.
http://www.ww2roll.gov.au/script/veteran.asp?ServiceID=R&VeteranID=863631
Enjoy your read.
Sue
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Velcro while you are looking at service records if you search the CLOONAN name you will see a number of records for Lawrence and Catherine's children.
Cheers
Cando
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My aunt was overwhelmed with all the assistance that I received from all of you talented and helpful researchers. It will keep her busy as it did me filtering thru all these precious records. Many thanks.
The forces (army and airforce) records are great and she didnt know that Victor Pratt was in the Army first up.
Cheers
Velcro
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Hi, if you need any help with the Charman family, contact me here or at
Moderator Comment: email address removed to prevent spam and other abuses. Please use the secure PM (personal message) system to share email addresses and other personal information. Thank You.
Regards, Colin Charman
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Greetings Velcro, fellow readers
I have spent a fair bit of time(but not money) looking into that particular Pratt family. There is a small connection to my own family through Edward Salisbury Pratt - well his wife actually. I believe that Edward Salisbury Pratt is the same person whom you have referred to as John Salisbury Pratt.
As one poster mentions above, perhaps more can be gleaned from buying some Birth/Death/Marriage certificates. Having said that, i have purchased a marriage certificate for Pratt's 'widow' which says Edward Salisbury Pratt is dead - not true as it happens.
It is an interesting story but it will take a bit of money spent to flesh out all the details.
I would be glad to share what information i have if it would be of any assistance.
Have to dash for work now.
regards
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Hi ;D
Welcome to rootschat.
The members of the forum can only detail information as it is found in records.
I believe that Edward Salisbury Pratt is the same person whom you have referred to as John Salisbury Pratt.
You are probably correct but the incorrect information came from a death registration and as we all know, the information on death certificates is only as good as the knowledge of the informant.
Edward PRATT died aged 64 in 1941 at Dimboola reg 15593
father John Salisbury PRATT mother Mary Anne GODWELLS
Birth
Births Mar 1847
PRATT Edward Salisbury Erpingham 13/106
Erpingham is in the county of Norfolk
Marriage
PRATT Edward Salisbury born Norfolk
GOOTRALS Mary Ann Margaret Jane born Sydney
1869 Reg#1935
Only birth that comes anywhere near the name
NSW
V1850344 51/1850
GODWALLS Mary M J
Father John Mother Margaret
and now the confusion begins -
PRATT Sarah Jane Sophia
Father Edward Salisbury Mother Mary Ann Jane GATWABY
Brunswick 1874 Reg#21282
PRATT Margaret Ellen
Father Unknown Mother Mary Ann Margt Jane GOTWALLS
Glenthompson 1877 Reg#2910R
Birth Place: GLENTHOMPSON
This is William Edward John who married Margaret CLOONAN in 1908. No wonder the name of his father wasn't known...not on his birth reg.
PRATT William Edward John
Father Unknown Mother Mary Ann Margaret Jane PRATT
Dunkeld 1878 Reg#22227R
PRATT Alice Jane
Father Unknown Mother Mary Ann PRATT
Carlton 1880 Reg#1125
PRATT Esther Georgina
Father Edward Salisbury Mother Mary Ann GOODWELLS
Murtoa 1881 Reg#11167
PRATT Christina
Father Unknown Mother: Mary Ann Margaret PRATT
Murtoa 1883 Reg#4337
PRATT Charley Samuel
Father Unknown Mother Mary Ann Margaret PRATT
Murtoa 1885 Reg#19995
Cheers
Cando
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Hi Cando
Thanks for the welcome. :)
It is good to see that someone else has an interest.
Those infuriating records. I do have other records which seem to support the assertion that i made about William Edward John Pratt's father.
It is strange that some of the births have been registered twice. The cross reference in the index to the Victorian civil registrations goes:
Surname:GOTWYELLS
Given Name:William Edward John
Event:B(irth)
Father:Unknown
Mother:Mary Ann Margaret Jane PRATT
Registration district: Dunkeld
Registration Year:1878
Registration Number: 22227R
Still no father mentioned. That does not *necessarily* mean that he won't be on the actual certificate(OK i admit that it is not likely). For instance, my own Grandfathers birth certificate has the words "illegitimate" writ large in the column where the Fathers name is supposed to be listed. His father is listed on the birth certificate as a witness. I am guessing that the clerk would not allow the Father to be listed because they were not married?
Maybe the birth certificate of PRATT, Esther Georgina in 1881 might list John as a sibling so as to provide some corroboration?
The only proof that my Great Great grandfather was born in Victoria is the fact that he is listed on his sisters birth certificate in 1864 - 13 years after he was born!
Cando, you have located the correct entry from the NSW BDM's. This is a perfect illustration of how transcription errors of the various records can be misleading, and why the original record should be checked if possible.
In this case though i think the errors are more due to a heavy German accent. What do you think?
As to William Pratt's mother; here is the index entry from the NSW BDM index. I have a 'facsimile' of the ECR record at home somewhere and the speeling of the surname is hard to make out:
V1850 344 Vol. 51 GODWALLS MARY M J Father:JOHN Mother:MARGARET
The correct spelling of the surname is, i believe, Gottwald. Her parents were German Immigrants who arrived in Sydney in 1849? on the SS Beulah? I will have to check the details as i am working from a five year old memory!
Have to get back to work now so i hope to chat to you later!
Regards
duinnsleibhe
:modified for clarity.
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Hi again...
It is good to see that someone else has an interest.
It is what we do here on rootschat...help people find their families or try to point them in the right direction...well we try ;D
The only proof that my Great Great grandfather was born in Victoria is the fact that he is listed on his sisters birth certificate in 1864 - 13 years after he was born!
He was born before civil registration in Victoria and if he was baptised perhaps the parish may have been one of the churches that was not forthcoming with their records when requested to submit them to the BDM registrar. If he wasn't baptised then no record of his birth at all.
In this case though i think the errors are more due to a heavy German accent. What do you think?
More than likely. Illiteracy also accounts for a fair number of spelling variations etc.
I actually transcribed Mary's birth reg from the NSW bdm online index as copy and paste from other websites is not permitted on rootschat.
I do hope Velcro has new post notifications turned on so he/she can make contact with you to share your information.
Out of interest, when did Edward Salisbury die and who did the 'widow' Mary Ann marry? I noticed a marriage to a BASTIN. Is that hers? Finally when did she die? Just curious ;)
Cheers
Cando
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Hi again Cando
Hi again...
It is good to see that someone else has an interest.
It is what we do here on rootschat...help people find their families or try to point them in the right direction...well we try ;D
Well i meant a specific interest in the Pratts but never mind. I can see how helpful you are...and fast!
The only proof that my Great Great grandfather was born in Victoria is the fact that he is listed on his sisters birth certificate in 1864 - 13 years after he was born!
He was born before civil registration in Victoria and if he was baptised perhaps the parish may have been one of the churches that was not forthcoming with their records when requested to submit them to the BDM registrar. If he wasn't baptised then no record of his birth at all.
Yes there is no record i believe. It would have been a Catholic ceremony and i believe that there was noone around at Warrnambool at the time! lol
Some later children were baptised in Ballaraat, at St Alpinus? RC in 1853, 1854.
I actually transcribed Mary's birth reg from the NSW bdm online index as copy and paste from other websites is not permitted on rootschat.
I will watch out for those copyright issues and thankyou for pointing them out to me. I should point out that i did not copy and paste any material from a website. The NSW BDM index entry that i refer to was from my own research materials stored in computer files but computers being what they are i could not be certain wether or not i originally typed the info in or copy/pasted it. :o I will certainly watch what i post as i would not want to cause trouble.
I will post some more after work.
Regards
duinnsleibhe
:modified for clarity
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I do hope Velcro has new post notifications turned on so he/she can make contact with you to share your information.
Yes, i think that Velcro might be in a position to be able to read my comments now.
Out of interest, when did Edward Salisbury die...
I believe that he died in 1930. His death was registered, if i am correct, by the NSW Authorities. The index mentions Lewisham Hospital, which is where i assume it was that he died. The index also mentions 85 yrs, which i have taken to be his age at time of death. I have not purchased the associated certificate/transcription since i am so tight, and have a large family to feed!
who did the 'widow' Mary Ann marry? I noticed a marriage to a BASTIN. Is that hers?
BASTIN? I will have to dig out my CD's to check that one out - it is not one i have looked into. I would not rule it out after some of the things i have come across!
/rant
Part of the reason that i have not updated this thread in a more timely manner is that i have held this research fairly close to my chest. I have been reluctant to discuss it much owing to the potentially sensitive nature of the details. Not for my own sake so much but for that of my wider family - whoever they may be.
/end rant
The person that the 'widow' Pratt married was my Great Grandfather, Arthur Harry Banfield.
Finally when did she die? Just curious ;)
I can't remember just now...1926?? I will look into that if you like? I know that Mary Ann Margaret Jane Gottwald married at least once more after she parted company with my Great Grandfather...now there is a tale!
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Hi Cando and duinnsleibhe
Would like to share your updates on the Pratt and Gottwald families.
Do you have John Salisbury's DOB, marriage and death dates?
Thank you for clarifying the correct spelling of Gottwald. So many variations in the records.
Cheers
Velcro
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Hi Velcro,
I have been researching the Charman and Harbrow families in Australia for sometime. Jemima Harbrow's parents William Harbrow and Elizabeth Tester were married in 1835 in Withyham in Sussex. They emigrated to Victoria in 1842 as assisted passengers on the ship Earl of Durham.
They, like the Charman's, who were also assisted emigrants from Sussex, were brought out as part of the Henry Dendy Special Survey in Brighton. Thomas and Stephen Charman were brothers, and they arrived on board the ship Platina in 1842 with their wives and children. The Charmans originated in Warnham in West Sussex.
Hope this info is of some help.
cheers Kaz