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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Lanarkshire => Topic started by: WHS1899 on Tuesday 10 June 08 15:28 BST (UK)
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My 2x Great Grandmother was Margaret Spence b 23.11.1836. She married thomas Todd in London and as this is my direct line I have of course got the details to present day! In 1881 Margaret's sister Jeannie Spence was living with Thomas and Margaret in London as there Housekeeper. She was not with them in 1871 or 1891. On Thomas and Margaret's marraige cert one of the witnesses was James Spence, and Margaret's father was listed as David Spence, a farmer. So I knew Margaret's fathers name and two of her siblings.
Other details I have are:
Extract from Old Parish register (marraiges) for Avondale
10.7.1819 David Spence married Janet Hamilton, so that's the parents.
Extract from the Old Parish register (Births) for Stonehouse.
David Spence cattle dealer in Burnhead and Janet Hamilton his spouse had children born:
Janet 18.4.1820
Robert 12.8.1822
James 29.8.1824
David 4.10.1826
Ann 8.12.1828
William 12.12.1831
Alexander 31.8.1832
Elizabeth 12.12.1834
Margaret 23.11.1836
Jean 14.2.1841
Andrew 16.5.1843
According to Family Search David Spence was b c1794 Avondale, Lanarks and Janet Hamilton was b c1798 Avondale, Lanarks.
Eldest daughter Janet Spence 1820 married William Young and I have their details to present day, having been in touch with their descendant.
Son James Spence who was on sister Margaret's marraige cert turns up in London with his family so I have a few details on him.
Having rambled on with all of this, what I'd like to know is HOW I get back further with David Spence and wife Janet Hamilton. I know there are Scottish sites, but I can't afford to use them at the moment and have to go for any free sites. I'm also hoping somebody may have a connection with the family or have a suggestion on what I could do to get back further.
Beverley
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Hi Beverley
I have a copy of Avondale Death Records and if it is of any help, I have found a death for Janet Spence (Hamilton) 4 June 1852 Spouse of David Spence, Cattle Dealer, Interred in the 3. There are also some more down with the name Spance which might be the same family!
Regards
Yvonne
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Yvonne,
That's wonderful news, thank you so much. If there aren't too many and you have some time and it's not putting you out, I'd love to have details of the other Spence's.
Beverley
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Hi Beverley
Here is what I have. Probably there is a connection between them and you will have to figure out what is what.
Proper spelling
Robert Spence died 17th June 1823 Carter, Interred in the 2
Ann Spence (Scott) died 20 Jul 1841 Spouse of John Spence, Merchant, 4
Now here are the SPANCE names
Spance, Grizel (Hamilton) died 12 Feb 1839 Spouse of David Spance, Wright, Interred in the 3
Spance, James died 23 April 1831 Son of James Spance, Weaver, in 3
Spance Jean died 8 Dec 1838 Daughter of David Spance, Cattle Dealer, 1
Spance John died 19 Oct 1838 Son of John Spance. Interred in the 3
Spance David died 14 Jan 1847 Wright, Interred in the 1
Spance, Elizabeth (Mather) died 19 Feb 1838 Spouse of Robert Spance, Late Shoemaker, Interred in the 2
Thats all I have for Avondale Parish Beverley. Hope it helps!
Regards
Yvonne
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Yvonne,
Thank you so much for the burial details for Spence/Spance. I'm sure they will be a big help. I will enjoy trying to sort them out today :)
Just one thing, I notice it says "interred in the 1/2/3" etc. Do you know what these numbers refer to?
Thanks again Yvonne :)
Beverley
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Beverley
Yes the numbers are a mystery. I always took it to be the breadth of the lair! Some think maybe the number of the child!
Here are some Spence's with only mortcloth's, of course these are earlier.
Spence --Dec 1770 Margaret Spence in Strathaven. Mortcloths from Dec 1770 to --- 4 Shillings
Spence 24 Jun 1773 Andr. Spence in Straven's Child. 1 Shilling
Spence 01 Feb 1774 Andr. Spence Weaver his wife 4 Shillings
Spence 13 Sep 1781 Betty Spence relict to Jno Torrance Fleshr. -------
Don't know if these are of any interest to you Beverley, but you never know further down the line you might find something!
Regards
Yvonne
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Yvonne,
Thank you for the new Spence info. I know I'm probably being very dense here, but what are mortcloths?
Beverley
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Beverley
Not at all, if you don't ask you don't learn!
Mort Cloths are burial shrouds, many people were too poor to afford coffins in those days. The church provided mortcloths to drape over the body on the way to the cemetery, and then they were removed for re-use! Mortality rate was extremely high. Very Sad. Some people of course were so poor they could not even afford a Mort Cloth.
Mort mean death in latin!
Regards
Yvonne
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Yvonne,
Thank you for the new Spence info. I know I'm probably being very dense here, but what are mortcloths?
Beverley
Beverley, A bit of information on the use of mort cloths
http://web.ukonline.co.uk/scotlandgenealogy/OPR%20Extracts.htm
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Regarding the numbers found in the Avondale burial records.
These refer to the lairs within each burial plot. For example, some entries read "Interred in the 1st breadth" or "Interred at the stone". "Interred below the stone". "Interred at the back of James Clarks stone". "Interred at the east end of the stone". "Interred in the breadth south from the stone". Here's a perfect example - "Elizabeth Fleming, Glengevel mill buried 7th Jan 1836, spouse of Alexander Monrow, miller. Interred in the 6 breadth of her father's lairs".
Another reads "John Aiken, Lanark, son of John Aiken. Buried 2nd Jan 1844, interred in the 3 breadth of James Borland's lairs".
I have attached a photograph of part of a late Victorian plan of Dalziel old parish burial ground. This plan was made by the town surveyor, probably with much help from the parish gravedigger. It illustrates the diversity of each family plot. As can be seen, some families owned adjacent plots.
These plots or lairs were nothing like the modern 3 or 4 burials to a lair and then it's full sort of thing.
It wasn't always possible to dig too deep in those days, although it would depend on the type of soil in each individual churchyard, but there is no evidence to prove that a new grave went any deeper than about 5 feet. (The gravedigger would have an old shovel and the ground, especially during a cold winter, could have been very unyielding). So more ground space was required.
Avondale parish has left us with excellent evidence of how our ancestors were buried.
The numbers refer to the lairs within the plot. 1 appears to have been immediately in front of the headstone. 2 and 3 on either side. Perhaps 4 and 5 on either side again. 6 may have been across the feet of 1,2,3 and 4. 7 may have been behind the stone. It would appear that important members of the family were put into 1,2 and 3. While children were put into the outer lairs.
Out of the hundreds of entries in the Avondale register the number 7 is found very rarely and the number 8 mentioned only once. Perhaps an extra large plot?
Sometime towards the end of the 19th century the parish gravedigger at Cumbernauld, a gentleman by the name of William Sawyers, (who, by that time had been parish gravedigger for 64 years, taking over from his father and grandfather) was asked by the then minister to comment on each grave. The minister recorded his recollections with great accuracy.
For example - entry No 106.
"Buried and re-buried with strangers. A man working at the opening of the Caledonian Railway had a child buried here. The mother, who was mentally weak after the birth was afraid the child's body had been lifted. At the request of the father, Willaim Sawyers dug down, showed the coffin and offered him part of the mounting to take back to his wife to satisfy her that the body had not been interfered with. She was satisfied".
This in fact tells us that graves were re-used time and time again, especially for "strangers". Most burial grounds had Charnel Houses and as odd bones, even skulls, were disinterred they were thrown in the Charnel house.
No 123 entry reads -
"John Fleming and Joan Moffat 1732. (Headstone inscription).
James Fleming who is buried here sang for 26 years in the parish church as precentor. He never lifted a penny of his precentor fees but bought a house with it. James Fleming's sister buried here. 3 coffins, the middle one quite sound. All 3 lifted at the sister's funeral and a hole cut in the bottom. William Sawyers believes the middle coffin would still come out hard as a tombstone, being petrified".
So coffins were taken out and space dug to make room for new ones.
Finally, entry No 124 -
"J Fleming and A.S. (Gravestone inscription). This was the first case where I was prevented by the Sanitary Authorities from lifting a body, a child's. The wife was therefor buried in the (new) cemetery".
The old burial ground at Chapel Street in Airdrie was partially exhumed in 1934 to make a car park. The burgh engineer made a meticulous record of the work and he recorded 17, 18 and 19 bodies exhumed from some plots. Some were only 12 inches from the surface. More evidence that they were packed in over the years.
As for mort clothes. I don't know what happened elsewhere but here in Lanarkshire I have never found any evidence that people were buried without coffins. (and, over the past 30 years I have looked at every single OPR in the county).
The cloth was hired out by the parish (and the income used to support the poor) to cover the plain unpolished coffins before burial.
The parish accounts for Cambusnethan has an entry for February 1755 - "for a coffin for Thomas Hodge, £13.00".
And another for November 1758 - "Paid to William Brownlie, mason and wright in Crossgate for making Wm Douglas, Ian Selkirk, Janet Loudon, Marion Laurie's child and Joseph Cunningham's child, their coffins, the large cost 3 pounds each and the childrens 1 - 10 - 0 each".
February 1759 - "To be paid to Wm Martine, wright in Greenhead for Betty Cross and Elizabeth Hamilton's coffins and for mending the door of the minister's chamber at the kirk".
Most of these people can be found in the list of parish paupers for the preceding years.
Lodger.
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Yvonne,
Thanks again!
Sancti,
Thank you for the link, I found it really interesting, although the thought of reusing the mortcloth made me shudder!
Lodger,
Thank you for your message which was really interesting and very helpful, I've not come across that way of burials before, so good to know about it.
Beverley
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Lodger
Many thanks for posting, I found that most ineresting. I have been trying to find my ancestors who were buried in Hamilton Parish Churchyard only to be told that many were lifted and now interred in the Bent Cemetery, Hamilton. It is amazing how and where our ancesters end up!
Yvonne
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Yvonne,
I live a short distance from Hamilton parish church. As far as I know there were never any exhumations from the churchyard there. It still exists in its original condition, I have a list of the monumental inscriptions, perhaps I could do a look-up for you.
The burial ground of the First Relief Congregation Church in Hamilton was exhumed some years ago and the ground used as the town hall car park. The bodies were sent to the Bent, and as far as I know there was no record kept of names or monumental inscriptions. I do have a transcription from the only surviving baptism register of this church, covering the years 1776 - 1800. Very useful if you have Hamilton ancestors.
Lodger
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Lodger
Thanks for that and yes I would like to take you up on that kind offer. I was told a car park had been made and the bodies shifted to the Bent cemetery. I was in contact with the library at that time and I just took what I had been told to be correct!
My 4xGt Grandmother died at Muir Street, Hamilton on the 24th August 1858 aged 52 of Consumption, her name was Agnes McDonald! nee Rodger (Roger) and she was born 1806 in Stewarton. Buried Parish Church Yard, Hamilton - Undertaker James Wright. Her husband was Francis McDonald a Quarryman/Labourer and he died in the Glasgow Poorhouse in 23rd May 1874. His son paid up and I am at a loss where he is buried! I wondered if his son Francis might have taken him back to Hamilton!
Regards
Yvonne
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Hi Yvonne,
No luck I'm afraid, checked the MIs for Hamilton churchyard and the baptism register for the Relief Church.
There is a day book for the Bent, Hamilton Central Library has a copy on microfilm, so if you know the date of death they would do a look-up for the 1874 burial.
Lodger.
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Hi Lodger
Many thanks for looking. I would say they were so poor, that they probably could not aford a headstone!
Kind regards
Yvonne
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On the OPR's on SP there is a christening record for a David Spence
17/04/1791 SPENCE DAVID son of ROBERT SPENCE at Avondale /LANARK
Unfortunately there is no mothers name recorded but it is interesting that David called his 1st son Robert
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There is a Spance and a Spence headstone in Strathaven. I'll check them this week.
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Sancti,
Thank you for the christening details, it certainly sounds promising, and one to keep on file untill I can gather more info :)
Beverley
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The actual image of the OPR christening record on SP may give the mother's name.
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This site mentions Robert and David Spence 1809 in Strathaven cemetery
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~barrie/#77
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Thanks Sancti, I'll have a look at that!
Beverley
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I only had time to look at one today
It refers to George Spence and his wife Jane Donald and family members
Let me know if it is your line and I will get a photo
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Hi Sancti,
Thanks but I really don't know if they are connected.....I've only gone back to David Spence b c 1794 Avondale who married Janet Hamilton 10.7.1819. I do know their children, b Stonehouse, but there are no George's. I will keep hold of the info though, you never know it could turn out to be a future missing piece of jigsaw :)
Beverley
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From the information on the headstone, George would have been born c1844 so his marriage record will give parents names
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Thanks Sancti, I've added the birth year to my "George Spence Notes"
Beverley
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Recently my brother from Australia visited Hamilton and it was freezing cold -4 degrees at Hamilton Parish Churchyard. He tried to find some family graves and took some photos of inscriptions. Unfortunately he didn't find what we needed. Our ggg grandfather David Wilson b. 1776 lived at 1 Chapel St,Hamilton married to Marion Lang who died Jan 1860 aged 78. She is buried in Parish Churchyard, Hamilton too according to her DC.. David Wilson was on 1851 census but pre deceased his wife. I think it was probably pre 1855. He was a weaver.
There is another David Wilson born Glasgow about the same age and married to a Margaret Dick. He died in 1857 and it can be confusing..
My other ggg grandfather William Buchanan of 9 Young St. died 1862 and could be buried at Bent Cemetery. His wife Martha Gebbie died 1851-55.
My brother found our ggg grandfather Smellie Frame's grave in Hamilton Parish Churchyard. He died 1860. If you can help with the Wilson/Buchanan side this would be wonderful. Would love to be able to get a copy of the Churchyard records. Thanks Heather
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Hello Heather,
No luck with any of those names in Hamilton parish churchyard, sorry. Most of the inscriptions are pre 1860 and my guess is that by then the churchyard was overflowing and the Bent, being a nice new, well laid-out cemetery, looked like a better place to spend eternity!
The town council may have put a restriction order on the old burial ground, as you know, it is right in the middle of the new town (as it was then) and probably it was a bit smelly in the hot weather!
If you can supply the parents names for Buchanan/Gebbie etc I will check the Relief Congregation baptism register, it runs from 1776 to 1800.
Lodger
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Thankyou so much for searching so quickly. William Buchanan's parents were James Buchanan and Janet Douglas. It doesn't say on his DC where he is buried but it is 1862 and I know that Hamilton Parish Churchyard closed 1860.
His son William Buchanan (weaver) died aged 30 in 1855 and on the son's DC states his mother Martha Gebbie was deceased.(D.C states that this William Buchanan (son) was buried in Parish Churchyard Hamilton as certified by John Grinton - Sexton)
Martha Buchanan (nee Gebbie) was on the 1851c at Young St. aged 55.
She had a brother John Gebbie and sister Isabel Gebbie (both 60's unmarried on the 1851census but were not on 1861c. No idea of their parents but there was a Grace Gebbie aged 69 died Hamilton April 1867 and she was married to Matthew Thomson (weaver). Her parents were William Gebbie and Janet Paton (could be a clue).
I had thought that my David Wilson born 1776 would have been buried there in pre 1855. His parents were James Wilson and Jean Stirling. His wife Marion Wilson (nee Lang) who died Jan 1860 was buried in Parish Churchyard Hamilton (certified by James Wright Undertaker).
My ggg grandmother was Janet King married to Smellie Frame. She was from Dalziel but they married in Hamilton in 1834 and lived at 5 Union St. She died 1841 -1851c. I would love to know more about her.
Over 30 years searching, I really appreciate your looking .Thankyou, Heather
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Hi Heather,
All I could find in the Relief Church baptism book were children of William Gebbie (sometimes Gibbie) weaver in Hamilton and his spouse Janet Patton -
Catrean, born 2nd May 1780, baptised 7th May 1780.
John, born 6th July 1782, baptised 7th July 1782.
Joseph, born 22nd Sept 1784, baptised 25th Sept 1784.
Isabel, born 15th Nov 1785, baptised 20th Nov 1785.
There may have been other children, I don't know. Sometimes they were all entered at a later time, perhaps when the parents could afford to have the names put in, or perhaps they moved to another church.
Hope this helps a little. Dalziel was full of Kings, a very important family, some of them quite rich, so there may be good documentation out there! King the builder from Dalziel built the long wall in Bothwell Road Hamilton for the Duke of Hamilton, it runs all the way along the racecourse to Bothwell Brig, it was built about 1820 and still going strong!
Lodger.
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Thankyou so much for that information.
On 1851 census in Holme St. Hamilton
I found the following:
John Gebbie (Head) (U) 68 years HLW Born Hamilton
Isabella Gebbie (Sister (U) 65 years Tambourer Born Hamilton
Jean Buchanan neice (U) 20 Tambourer born Hamilton
Jean Buchanan was the daughter of my William Buchanan and Martha Gebbie who lived at 9 Young St. along with grandchildren named Hamilton on 1851 c and then grandchildren Hamilton, Wingate and Simpson on the 1861c.
I think I can be fairly certain that Martha Gebbie and John and Isabella Gebbie were siblings and that their father was William. I shall now try to trace the names Catrine (Katherine) and Joseph. Gebbie is such an unusual name especially in Hamilton. I have found some in the surrounding area and will now go back to my notes.
Thankyou so much.
My gggg grandparents were Mungo Lang and Jean Stirling (Yes, I had two Jean or Janet Stirlings). These were the parents of Marion Lang who married David Wilson (parents James Wilson and Jean Stirling). In census records Marion was born in Hamilton and died 1861.
Is there by any chance any early record of a William Smellie Frame and Janet Smellie who married around 1800? Supposed to be the parents of my ggg grandfather William Smellie Frame (Smellie or Smallie Frame) who lived in Union St. and died 1860 and this was the record on his DC.
I know I am being greedy but if you have any of these records at hand, they may contain some of the answers. Thanks again, Heather (Australia)
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The only thing I can find is again in the Relief Church baptism book -
2 children of Mungo Lang, weaver and his spouse Isobel Riddle (or Riddell)
James born 8th Sept 1777. (No baptism date)
Marrion born 5th May 1780 and baptised 7th May 1780.
I know the mother's name is wrong but Hamilton was a small town so there couldn't have been many "Mungo Lang's" in the place, perhaps this one is another generation or it is another wife?
Also,
1 child of William Lang and Janet Russell.
Mary, born 15th DEc 1785 and baptised 18th Dec 1785.
There was a James Wilson and Isabel Lang, 3 children for them,
John born 1793, Jean born 1796 and William born 1799.
The names Smellie (Smillie) and Frame (Fram) abound all along the south bank of the Clyde in Hamilton, Stonehouse, Dalserf and Glassford parishes, and many more. So I can't really help there I'm afraid.
Good luck with your research.
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Thanks again Lodger.
I was aware of some births in Hamilton to the Mungo Lang and Janet Liddle but not of a daughter named Marion.
These were Agnes 1766, Martha 1769, Martha (2) 1771, James 1773, Martha (3)1774, Isobel 1775. These from parish records.
My gggg grandmother Marion Lang was also born 1780 or 1781. She died on 15.1.1860 and was 78 yrs when she died according to her DC. Her son David Wilson signed the cert. as informant and named her parents as Mungo Lang and Janet Lang (maiden name Stirling). Wonder whether this was an error as his paternal grandmother was also janet or Jean Stirling. This Mungo Lang/ Janet Riddel is the only record I have found
Thankyou again for being so kind to do the look ups. They have opened up more avenues. Heather.
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Heather,
This Mungo Lang and Janet Riddel have to be yours.
The information on the 1860 death certificate sounds very suspect, if as you say, the other granny was Stirling, then I would tend to think the informant was mistaken. Who knows just how educated - or uneducated he was, or if he was very upset at the time, endless reasons why he gave the wrong information.
I usually tell people not to just grab the first one that sort of fits, but in this case I'd make the exception.
Lodger.
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Hi Lodger, Firstly, thank you for the look ups in Hamilton cemetery which you have done for a distant cousin of mine, Heather. I'm one of the descendants of the Gebbie/Lang families. Heather has passed on the information you have found for us. Apart from the family history I share with Heather, I also have another branch of my family who have lived in the Hamilton area. The Ritchie family. My great grandfather Robert Ritchie married a Margaret Wilson. Margaret had a sister Marion, from whom Heather descends. Their parents are our common ancestor.
My GG Grandfather Daniel Ritchie and his wife (though no marriage has been found in my 20 years of searching) Eliza (Elizabeth) Gray (Kisseck?) are both supposed to have been born in Lanarkshire, possibly Lanark. They had their children in Antrim Ireland and although my GGrandfather Robert Ritchie married lived and had most of his children in Hamilton, I have not been able to fine what became of his siblings - wether they also went to Scotland or not. Robert and his wife Margaret migrated to Australia in 1886. Roberts father Daniel died in Belfast. His Mother Eliza was still in Belfast in 1887 but I have not found her death there and wondered if she returned to Scotland to live with other family members. If you think you could help me in any way on my Ritchie/Gray line, it would be greatly appreciated.
Regards, CeciliaR
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Hi Eel and any that may be intrested,
I was at Strathaven Cemetery yesteday helping my daughter look for her OH family, I took about 140 photos which I downloaded to the pc today, I havent had time to go through then, but I did see quiet a few Spences , Alot of Stewarts, Flemmings, and I will be going back again, not sure when as I live in Argyll, but once I have gone through them, i cna let you know what names I have at the moment.
it might not be until next week though
Sybil
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Hi Sybil,
That sounds really interesting. Would love to know of any Spence's when you get a moment or three :)
Eel
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Hi Eel, I have not had chance to go through they photo's yet, best laid plans of mice and men
but there are two Spence's
but that was just a small part of the cemetery thai I covered will be back out again sometime probably April
Sybil
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Sybil,
Thank you so much for the images of Spence gravestones, really, really interesting. Thank you for your time on this, much appreciated.
Eel