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General => Armed Forces => World War One => Topic started by: spof on Monday 09 June 08 21:57 BST (UK)
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Followng on from the work at Fromelles
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,308163.0.html
The Australin newspaper printed a story about Celtic Wood at Passchendale
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23786389-5016734,00.html
I know nothing about this event (and very little about Passchendale itself) so if anyone can point me to places to understand it, I'd be very grateful.
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Hello spof,
Found a book about it....
http://www.pen-and-sword.co.uk/?product_id=109
Phil
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Hi Glen !
Last year was the 90th anniversary of Passchendale !
Lively discussions regarding Celtic Wood available on the Forum !!
Interesting to read different points of view !! :)
Annie :)
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Hi Spof - you've given me the chance to evangelize about one of my favourite books. It's part of a series of histories of WW1 - and in my opinion is the best of the series.
They Called It Passchendaele: The Story of the Battle of Ypres and of the Men Who Fought in It by Lyn McDonald.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/They-Called-Passchendaele-Battle-Fought/dp/0140165096/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1213049773&sr=8-1
It includes letters, diaries and eye-witness accounts of the battles, life at the front and behind the line. It's absolutely fascinating and there are quite a few accounts which bring tears to the eye.
I can't find my copy at the moment - rather foolishly I think I lent it to someone - so can't check about Celtic Wood in particular but it does go into great detail about the various locations.
Milly ;D
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJdh1M5PGTg
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Thank you very much Phil and Milly....can't decide between them so I've put both books onto my priority list.
And Annie, boy do you know how to pick 'em ;D Great song.
Glen
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Hi Glen !
I came across this looking for something else ...... but I'm always amazed at how they can find the information on so many men and there is absolutely nothing on others !! .... one of these days I hope these soldiers will all be known !
Dochy Farm New British Cemetery
Directions
From Ieper, take the Zonnebeke road. In the centre of the village, opposite the church, take the road to the left. The cemetery is two kilometres along this road on the left-hand side.
About the cemetery
Dochy Farm was a German strongpoint that was captured by New Zealand forces on October 4th 1917, during the Battle of Broodseinde Ridge. The jumping off line for the Australian 3rd Division then passed near the farm during their attack in the same battle. The cemetery was made after the Armistice from isolated graves brought in from the Broodseinde/Passchendaele battlefields and contains 1439 Commonwealth burials. Due to the fierce fighting in this area, it is not surprising that 958 of the graves are unidentified.
By standing with your back to the cemetery you are looking across much of the Broodseinde/Passchendaele battlefield, towards Tyne Cot Cemetery on the ridge in the distance. Thousands of Australians were killed or wounded in the fields in front of you.
Total burials: 1439
Australian burials: 305
Notable Australians buried in this cemetery
Private Edward Green, 10th Battalion, died 09/10/1917, age 25. Private Green is part of an AIF mystery. On October 9th 1917 Lieutenant Frank Scott led 85 men of the 10th Battalion to raid German positions in Celtic Wood, southeast of the village of Broodseinde. The raid was intended as a diversion to distract the Germans in that sector from the impending attack on Passchendaele to the north. The Germans were on their guard - two days earlier parties from the 11th and 12th Battalions had raided the wood, causing many casualties and taking several Germans prisoner. At dawn on the 9th, Lieutenant Scott led his small group down the slope into the wood - where they disappeared. Only 14 unwounded men returned to the Australian lines. Later research has accounted for 48 of the raiders, but the fate of the other 37 remains a mystery. No graves have ever been found and the Germans produced no records of prisoners. The German regiment facing the Australians also made no mention of the raid in their unit diary. The most likely explanation is that the German defenders took revenge on the Australians for their losses in the earlier raid and killed them all, before burying them in an unmarked grave. Private Green is one of the few members of the raid whose fate is known, although it is unknown how he came to be buried here, so far from the site of the raid. His date of death is incorrectly recorded as October 8th. Grave VII. C. 16.
http://www.diggertours.com/cems/bel/dochy.htm
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Hi Annie
Great find! Thank you. :)
As long as there are people like Rootschatters and the like, they will hopefully all be known.
Glen
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In Memory of
Private Edward Louis Green
2662B, 10th Bn., Australian Infantry, A.I.F.
who died age 25
on 08 October 1917
Son of Louis and Mary Anne Green, of Uraidla, South Australia.
Remembered with honour
Dochy Farm New British Cemetery
http://www.cwgc.org/search/certificate.aspx?casualty=160984
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In Memory of
Lieutenant Frank John Scott
Mentioned in Despatches
10th Bn., Australian Infantry, A.I.F.
who died age 23
on 08 October 1917
Son of James and Felicia Rosina Scott, of "Frankcleve," Church Hill, Gawler, South Australia. Native of Gawler, South Australia.
Remembered with honour
Ypres Menin Gate Memorial
http://www.cwgc.org/search/certificate.aspx?casualty=1600953
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Annie
The books mentioned above should be here this week so we should get some more very interesting information about them.
Glen
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Oh good Glen !! :) :) :)
It'll be interesting to find out what you learn !! :D
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I found the German regiment Glen ... 448th I.R. ! have you seen this before ?
Of 85 officers and men only 14 returned unwounded and the missing were never heard of again. Their names not on any list of prisoners and none of their bodies found after the war.
Stretcher bearers tried the next day to enter the wood and recover the wounded but were shot down - there had been shooting of stretcher bearers by both sides in a neighbouring trench shortly before.
as far as has been ascertained, the records of the 448th I.R., the German regiment which held the sector, contain no mention of the attack.
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I have just read Anatomy of a Raid. It seems so sad that we will never know who these missing 37 men were.
I wonder why so many just dissappeared?
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Hi itvol4part2 and welcome to RootsChat ! :)
So many of the soldiers were wounded and fell into the mud and drowned .... the other men just couldn't get to them .... one of these days they will find their bones ... but in the meantime ... we just remember them !
I can't read stuff like this without my stomach being tied up in knots .... :-\ and the tears start to flow !
http://www.greatwardifferent.com/Great_War/Passchendaele/Passchendaele_01.htm
Annie
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It does seem so strange that the names are not recorded on Menin Gate. I will get there to pay my respects one day.
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Just come across this reference, Private Edward Louis Green was the brother of my great uncle, Leslie Clifford Green. Nice to find this family reference.
Deanne
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It does seem so strange that the names are not recorded on Menin Gate. I will get there to pay my respects one day.
The names will probably be recorded at Tyne Cot as they ran out of space on the Menin Gate.
Buzancy18
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I would really really like to get a photo of a grave at Dochy Farm New British Cemetery (my uncle's brother). We missed it when we were in Flanders thanks to our rather grumpy tour guide (long story). Anyway, does anyone know how I might go about it? As we're in Australia can't exactly 'pop' over.
Deanne
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You could try a photo request on
http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showforum=164
There are Belgian contributors who will be nearby.
Buzancy18
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We attended the 50th anniversary of Passchendaele(3rdYpres)in October 1967.
An aeroplane of the Canadian Air Force flew over Tyne Cot Cemetery and dropped a poppy for each soldier killed in that engagement. They fluttered down and built up against the small white headstones like drifts of red snow.
We saw a woman frantically looking at the headstones, I spoke to her and she said she was looking for her father, Private Strachey of the Inniskillin Fusiliers, killed October 17th 1917.
She was with a coach tour and had no time to consult the register at the gate as we were at the lower end of the cemetery where her coach was parked on the small road.
On our way to Ypres where there was to be a service in St.George`s memorial Church we stopped our car and got out to visit a tiny battlefield cemetery where the graves were in no order , the men buried randomly. And there he was. We had not got the woman`s address, had not seen which coach company it was and had no way of contacting her. It was heartbreaking.
We proceeded to Ypres where The Northumberland Fusiliers ( just back from the crater district in Aden) were standing guard duty. They were a bit cross as there was a fair on in the big square in front of The Cloth Hall. They wore hackles in their berets and the Belgian people thought they had won them at the shooting gallery where similar bunches of feathers could be won if you shot all segments of clay pipe threaded on a thin wire with the feathers at the top. Things were getting a bit edgy and the lads were getting quite upset so we spoke to a police officer to explain the hackles represented great bravery shown in battle and the lads were battle weary having just come from Aden and this duty was an honour for them and explained the name Tyne Cot and its association with Northumberland and this regiment etc . He spoke to people and stallholders and we told the lads to pass the word around no harm was meant the Belgian people did not understand. The lads were treated to chips but sadly they were disappointed when there was no vinegar just mayonnaise or pickles! I can hear them still --" Hey mon they`ve no vinegar for wor chips!"
What a privilege to have attended that ceremony. I have one of the poppies which had caught in my son`s jacket hood.We found it later when he took it off in church.
The little higgledy piggledy cemetery has now been "rationalised" to make mowing easier!!!!!
But they are kept so beautifully that I mustn`t complain, but there was a poignancy about it beyond what you would feel anyway.
Viktoria
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thank you Buzancy18 - I will try that site.
Deanne
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Celtic Wood
Mystery explained[edit]
In 2008, researchers Chris Henschke and Robert Kearney undertook steps to solve the mystery. By analysing after action reports, wartime diaries and witness statements that were able to be verified, they say they are able to account for the fate of all the missing men beyond a reasonable level of doubt and attributed the mystery to the fog of war, clerical errors and misreporting.[1]
The attack[edit]
Rather than the "rolling curtain of death" expected to shield the attack, the barrage was light and scattered when the 10th charged across the 180 metres (200 yd) separating Celtic Wood from the Australian trenches. The terrain to be crossed consisted of tree stumps, bomb craters metres wide and due to heavy rain over the preceding days, mud that in some places was knee-deep. Compounding this, the 10th had made two raids on Celtic Wood the previous week, leading the Germans to reinforce and install extra machine gun nests. Lt Scott ordered a frontal attack on the German trench while he led a group around to flank it from the rear. Despite being outnumbered, Scott was successful and the German troops began a retreat as soon as they were fired on from the rear.
German reinforcements quickly arrived and engaged the Australians in hand to hand combat, pushing them back while at the same time German artillery opened up, laying a curtain between the Australian and German trenches making a retreat impossible. Within a short time all the officers were dead or wounded and Sergeant William Cole tried to fire the flare signalling the withdrawal but was killed as he was firing the flare. The remaining men were left to find their own way to safety.
From cross-referencing all the available records, researchers believe that a massacre was unlikely as the British had begun an artillery barrage on the position preventing German troops from pursuing the retreating Australians. At the same time the German artillery barrage continued, preventing the Australians from retreating. Caught in the barrages, the 37 missing soldiers were likely killed in the heavy shelling and along with the bodies of those previously killed in the attack, left no recognisable remains to be recovered.[1][6]
Historian Chris Henschke stated: "the raid wasn't a great mystery, but it was simply a raid with a very high proportion of casualties... It is a story of a typical small unit action that went wrong."[1]
Notes[edit]
^ Jump up to: a b c d e Faulkner, Andrew (24 April 2011). "Anzac mystery solved after 94 years". The Advertiser. Retrieved 26 May 2012.