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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Yorkshire (West Riding) => Topic started by: Eds on Tuesday 03 June 08 11:28 BST (UK)
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Trying to find John and Sarah Lister. They had children in Ashton under Lyne (Dan 1852 n William Henry 1854).
Daniel was living in Wombwell in 1871 n 1881 census
Thanking you
Eds
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Daniel's a bit of a puzzle isn't he? In 1871 he gives his place of birth as Barnsley, Yorks.
Can't find a John & Sarah Lister.
This could be a coincidence, indexed under Linter but looks like Lister on image
possible second wife for John?
1861 census RG09 piece 3452 folio 33 page 11
Hampshire Row, Worsborough, Yorks
LISTER
John Head Mar 39 Coal Miner HocktonYorkshire ~ (edit Flockton)
Elizabeth Wife Mar 25 Italy British Subject
Williamson Son 4 Scholar Ashton Under Lyne Lancashire
Mary Dau 3 Scholar Worsbrough Yorkshire
Grace " 1 Barnsley Yorkshire
Dan STONES Visitor 8 Scholar Ashton Under Lyne Lancs
Barbara
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It's all a bit of a puzzle isn't it ???
That looks good Barbara.
Family Search has an entry though for Dan Lister- parents John and Sarah and also William Henry.
Free BMD has births for William Henry and Williamson and Dan Lester.
Elizabeth here is very young and I wonder if it is a second marriage- not that it would explain Stone.
Just looking for Elizabeth b Italy - found one in Great Bolton, Lancs - wife of Julias Caesar ;D ;D ;D
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there is a Free BMD marriage possibility
1856 Ashton
John Lister and Elizabeth Williamson.
As the family don't seem to be traceable and you are asking for 1861 only, I wonder did they all emigrate and leave Dan behind?
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I can't find Daniel Stones in any later census....
very odd
possible second wife for John?
Elizabeth here is very young and I wonder if it is a second marriage- not that it would explain Stone.
Possible - maybe Sarah died and he then married Elizabeth - Daniel and William Henry's births were before the 1856 marriage , but where is William Henry in 1861?
Barbara
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Just looking for Elizabeth b Italy - found one in Great Bolton, Lancs - wife of Julias Caesar ;D ;D ;D
Oh Heywood, don't believe it ;D ;D
Anyway, here's a possible death for Sarah if they were living in Barnsley
Mar 1855 Lister Sarah Barnsley 9c 9_
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but he married Elizabeth in Ashton - he may have commuted of course!
Besides the Julius Caesar episode, I was tracking a John and Sarah Ann Lister who may have been possibilities. They became Sister John Anthony and Sister Sarah Ann Anthony in one census. Sister/Lister and Anthony from previous household ::) I thought they had entered a convent.
It's an interesting pastime ;D
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I think to clear some of this up a couple of certificates are required, Eds, don't you think, unless you have a bit more to go on.
At least then we'd know Sarah's maiden name
Barbara
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just visiting Daniel in 1871 and there in the index is the following:
1871 RG10; Piece: 4075; Folio: 32; Page: 12
Daniel Lister 45 yrs b 1826 Flockton Yorkshire with his family in Ashton under Lyne.
I think the 1861 John that you found Barbara was born Flockton not Hockton
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I think Eds is in Australia Barbara so perhaps he's asleep ;D
Just for information- may be for the future Eds Daniel snr and John seem to be here in 1841 - Flockton with parents and family.
1841 HO107; Piece 1270; Book: 5; Folio: 30; Page: 28
As Barbara says- a couple of certificates perhaps to sort out John.
best wishes
heywood
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I think the 1861 John that you found Barbara was born Flockton not Hockton
Yes... well... I didn't look it up and couldn't read it so went with the transcript :-[
;D
Could be the right family then, with father William, sons Daniel & John who married Sarah, had Daniel, then Sarah died and John married Elizabeth??
Or maybe not, just suggesting
Barbara :)
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I went along with you for Hockton until something happened- goodness knows what now- you know what it's like when we're in pursuit ;D
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WOW!!!!!!!! Ta muchly Barbara and heywood!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
This is exciting tidbits you have discovered for me. I am a tad
annoyed with myself I didn't find them in 1841..I did all sorts of
name tricks... sigh....Yes, heywood I am in Oz and as soon as I
opened my eyes I checked my mail :)
Now... here is another interesting bit. Have the birth cert for
Dan Lister (Lester actually) parents John Lester and Sarah
Lester formally Sarah STONES !!!!! 19 Aug 1852 Ashton under
Lyne.
Soooooooo what are your thoughts about the Dan Stones in the
1861 census being a visitor. Did Elizabeth not like a step son? Am
thinking perhaps William Henry and Sarah died at the same time.
I will chase up that thought.
Loved your info about Jules n Betty ;D ;D ;D
Thank you very much indeed for your help
Eds
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Well, Eds, did you just find that birth cert or ..... it would have helped!
So Sarah Stones and John Lester had Daniel before they were married so that is obviously the right family I found in 1861.
Quite often a second wife didn't go down too well with earlier children and they perhaps went to live with grandparents
Incidentally I found another family all surnamed Sister (Lister really) and it looked most peculiar, Sister John etc...
So now need to find the marriage, & Sarah & perhaps William Henry's death
Barbara :)
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As Barbara has already said - all information known is best then it saves a lot of time ::)
I must say I had thought of the scenario that Elizabeth wasn't too keen on having Daniel named Lister/Lester - perhaps she gave the info to the enumerator and it was in a fit of pique because Daniel was officially Lester by birth. Or maybe she could have said Daniel Stones Lister and the enumerator only wrote that- who knows?
At least thanks to Barbara's eagle eye you have them now.
Do you know what happened to John and Elizabeth- I don't think we have them after 1871- that's without checking back sorry. ;D
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Greetings Barbara and heywood,
Firstly I apologize profusely for not posting the details of Dan's birth cert. My brain doesn't always kick in as often as it should.
Shall be ordering the death cert for Sarah Lister in Barnsley, this should be of value one way or another.
A question for you... what are the chances of mother Sarah telling a fib when she registered Dan, saying she was Lester and that she was Stones before Lester? Be darned if I can find their marr.Once again ta muchly for your invaluable help !!!!!! ;D ;D
Eds
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Morning ;D
may be they never married but registered him with both names.
Does the certificate say Lester formerly Stones or just Stones?
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Ahhhhh see, this is the tricky part.. the cert says......
Sarah Lester formerly Stones....my brain says they must have been married... but who knows aye what?
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Now here is something interesting... how on earth did my name change to Annie Eliza in this thread?
Eds
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Testing.......have I returned ?????? ??? ??? ??? :-\
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yes your back to 'normal' ??? ??? ???
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funds allowing you could try William Henry's birth certificate to compare or even John and Elizabeth's certificate to see if he is a widower or not.
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Ta for calling me 'normal' the ??? really says it all however ;D
Good thought about those two certs. Will have to check my pennies
Thanks again for your help, youre a good egg
Eds
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Hi eds,
well I went to the Local History centre in Ashton and didn't find out much.
However, John did declare himself a bachelor on his mariage to Elizabeth Williamson.
Baptisms are as in IGI - Both Dan and William Henry - parents John and Sarah Lister - John is a miner.
Marriage:
24th June 1855
John Lister full age bachelor a miner father William Lister
Elizabeth Williamson full age spinster father James Williamson sea captain
both living in Ashton.
Witnesses: Thomas Newton (is witness at lots of marriages) and John Baylan ? ??? - writing fades to a squiggle.
(I do wonder re the sea captain - can't find anything relevant in census).
Bearing in mind William Henry was born November; baptised December 1854 and John married Elizabeth in June 1855, I couldn't find any relevant funerals for William H or Sarah.
There is a marriage for a Sarah Stones to WIlliam Kelly (on IGI) 1859 but can't find any references in census.
William Kelly bachelor miner father John Kelly weaver
Sarah Stones spinster father Thomas Stones mason
witnesses were the Newtons -who seem to have a monopoly on witnessing.
By the way- both John Lister and Elizabeth signed their names.
Finally- Dan Stones is a visitor in 1861 so he must have been living somewhere ::)
I have checked for William Henry as William/ Lister/Stones/Kelly - nothing and also for Sarah.
that's it ;D
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Hiya
The only John in Barnsley main cemetery is
John Lister plot Q 823 uncon 27/9/1868 aged 39 of John St Barnsley
There are no Sarah Lister's at all would you like me to check any other surnames for her ?
My cousin is going to look up some of her 'Peaces' in Wombwell burials on Monday so Ive asked her to look out for Lister's and make a note for you !
There is a William Lister in M 157 con 12/6/1899 aged 67 died Armley Leeds (oh dear was the prison open then )
For now
Doodle x
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Greetings heywood,
Thank you, thank you very much indeed for doing that research for me. This lot is turning into quite a challenge.
Maybe I better get that death cert for Sarah Lister..would that have the name of her husband ?
Ta muchly again, you're a true gem indeed
Eds
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I'm not that sure it is her really but that's just me!
Their youngest child was born November 1854 and baptised December 1854 at St Michael's Ashton and then John was married 6 months later in June 1855 at the same church.
Meanwhile Sarah Lister dies 1855 in Barnsley unfortunately no age is shown so it could be her and only the certificate would say. It would give her age and the name of the person reporting the death.
1851 has lots of Sarah Listers in Yorkshire and some of them in Barnlsey registration district I suppose.
I don't think we have John in 1851 census have we? His brother Daniel is living in Dukinfield in 1851 (part of Ashton now) and so I suspect that it why John ends up in Ashton. Can't spot an obvious John in 1851 - he is quite mature by then and could be married but he does declare himself a bachelor later. ???
The civil birth certificates and John's marriage certificate to Elizabeth would give addresses but who knows whether they will be of use.
Geographically, Wombwell is 4 miles (or so) from Worsbrough where Daniel and Johnand Elizabeth are to be found but Worsbrough is about 15 miles from Flockton. (Thinking aloud here -so John didn't go back home).
I can find no trace of John, Elizabeth and family after 1861 - what a puzzle ???
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Ahhh at last I have been able to get to a comp !!!!!!! I have been travelling.
Thanks again for your info and thoughts.
I certainly haven't had found John in the 1851..would be handy if he could be found then.
I suspect I will have to get that Sarah Lister death cert.. as it will always bug me, I have trouble leaving stones un turned....Been thinking if she was the 'right' Sarah, John didn't waste anytime remarrying. It also bothers me how William Henry has disappeared.
Ta muchly again
Eds
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Hello
May I ask how old is William Lister? The reason I ask is that I noticed a William Lister age 44 in Census return for Cridling Stubbs for 1891. If that is not right I will butt out. I do apologize for jumping in.
Bonnie
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Greetings Bonnie,
I am happy to see any thoughts and info.
Could you post the ref for that plz, I suspect that William maybe a bit old for the one I am after.
Thanking you
Eds
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http://www.cridling-stubbs.co.uk/Docs/census1891.htm
This seems to be Cridling Stubbs own census. I mean they put it on the web just of their town.
Hope it helps.
Bonnie
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hello
i have found a william williamson b1820 living in aston u lyne with daughter betty B 1839,he states place of birth as ON THE SEA COULD THIS BE THE CAPTAIN.
lee
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Lee - sounds good.
I'm looking at one in 1851- Betsey is 8 yrs and we have her in 1861 as 25 yrs though- which census are you in.
He is a labourer and she is born Ardwick - hardly Italy but who knows ::)
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doh
i was on same one as you but have looked at ages of family above,feel a bit daft now
lee
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oh- don't feel daft - people also give wrong ages etc - we have to explore all avenues ;D
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Greetings heywood and lee
Ta muchly for your help, findings etc. I find all info handy ;D
I have been told that sometimes not all the records from the counties made it to the GRO.. what do you think of my chances of contacting the county record office for the marr( if it exists) of John Lister and Sarah Stones? It is really bugging me that Dan birth cert said mother was Sarah Lister formerly Stones.....sigh...
Eds
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Personally, I don't think they were married but ...
He says he is a bachelor on marriage to Elizabeth- in the church register anyway - I assume that the same info would be on civil record? Perhaps it may be worth investing in that for his address to compare with the children's birth certificates.
It does seem likely that the events took place around Ashton- unless Sarah came from Yorkshire with him and returned there to die (sounds dramatic and very sad) because he is back marrying Elizabeth within months.
But - it's your money and to solve an issue you could try - nothing ventured etc. ;D
sigh and sigh again Eds :'(
so irritating aren't they!
heywood
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Ta for your thoughts heywood.Been thinking that there must have been a reason for Daniel Lister to have given his birth place as Barnsley in the 1871 census. Daddy Lister may have flitted about.
I am almost ready to give my eye teeth to solve this lot.
Thanks again
Eds
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you're not alone!
Am off out now but will be back ;D ;D ;D
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You know maybe our mistake ( well mine anyway) is looking for John Lister or what ever. Maybe "John" has been badly transcribed.. :(
One never knows aye what
sigh..........................
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May be it's going to be one of those unsolved mysteries :o
As I said earlier the first 2 children and marriage in Ashton are all close togther.
Williamson is born in Ashton 1st quarter 1856.
Mary is born in Barnsley (Worsbrough) 1858 (I think).
As John is a miner, I suppose they moved for that reason - I am assuming that Elizabeth is from around Ashton :-\ but really we have no idea.
I am more intrigued as to what happened to John, Elizabeth, Williamson, Grace etc after 1861? Surely they must have emigrated?
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Hiya Eds
Wombwell Buriels for you to browze
March 1906 to Jan 1926
Winifred Lister 26 days died 25 July 1919 burial 28 July 1919 Station Villa plot con 709
1893-1900 Bk 4
Daniel Lister 1month 5 Aug 1893 8 Aug 1893 Lundhill plot 4249
Abraham Lister 10 months 28 July 1895 30 July 1895 Lundhill Top plot 4241
1881-1906 these books are really confusing but this is how I got it so if there is a duplicate its because there in two different books ??
Frank Lister uncon 4241 25 aug 1886 11 mths 27 aug 1886 Lundhill
Elizabeth Lister uncon 874 sept 8 1892 burial same day age 64 then in a sub heading it says still born sept 8 Schofield Wombwell main.
Abraham and Daniel are duplicated exactly the same except daniel in 4241 could be my mistake so I will double check when I go back and do the other two books that are left
1880-1887
Fred Lister 9 months Lundhill 16 june 1885 un con 4142 19 june 1885 oh and ceromony performed by James Lister
Frank Lister 1886 11 months Lundhill 4241 25 aug 1886 27 aug 1886
Hope these are of some help and tie in with your family probably get back to this on Friday morning to get the other two books out of the way..
Doodle
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Hi Eds and Doodle,
just to let you know that searching Lister, b Flockton brought a Frederick Lister up in Worsbrough and an older Frederick in Dukinfield - where the older Daniel was.
I did try to establish a connection- unsuccessfully - think i lost the will part way through ;D
As I said before, for John and Elizabeth AND children to disappear- they must have emigrated surely- or had their own little tragic epidemic.
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Greetings Doodle n heywood ta muchly for the info !!! :)
heywood.. I checked out Hugh Wallis site and found a number of children for William n Mary Lister. Found Fredric BPed 15 Feb 1818 Flockton and Daniel and a heap of others.. 11 to be exact.
I also found another son for John n Elizabeth John James Bped 21 Dec 1862 Worsbrough.. interesting aye.
If Elizabeth was really born in Italy..wondering if they decided to migrate there? Haven't had much luck for that line of thinking however.
Thanks again both of you
Eds
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Hi Eds,
John James Lister birth registration June 1862 Pontefract.
Without rechecking, there was a Frederick in Dukinfield - similar age to John and Daniel snr - so it does seem as though there was a mini migration to the Ashton area.
I think I got a bit confused following the younger Frederick but I suppo he could be a son of one of the many siblings of John.
I'm unsure re the truth of sea captain/ Italy but on the other hand it would make sense for her birth in Italy.
Did the descendants of Daniel or he himself emigrate to Australia - I wondered if John and Elizabeth and family emigrated.
We'll keep thinking :D
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Greetings heywood,
Dan Lister's 3 xgs granddaughter emigrated to Oz in the 1970s.
I haven't found any sign of John and Elizabeth at all.
This is one lot I cant drop at the mo...I so HAVE to know !!!
Ta muchly for your help
Eds
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Oh bother!! She would hardly be sponsored by John and Elizabeth then ;D
BUT they must have gone somewhere. I have tried USA immigration through the Castle Garden site but not there.
Are there any Australian immigration sites?
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Ahhhhh back again, have been away, doing LIVE rellie hunting.
I haven't had much luck in the Oz lists as yet. Cora Num has a
few sites.
http://www.coraweb.com.au
Now hows this little titbit I found waiting for me. A FRANK
KELLY was a witness to the marr of a son of Dan !!!!! in 1910.
I will try not to be too excited at this stage. However I am
now off to Ancestry.com :)
Ta muchly for your help
Cheers
Eds
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Greetings heywood,
Just an update.. tracked Frank Kelly to 1871 son of William!!!
BUT a widower has 3 other sons James born abt 1861,George born abt 1864 and Frank born abt 1868. The head of the household is Sarah Mellard born 1783 . and is a widow. Interesting thing is..has William as Hus....and a widower. Think this is his mother.
Found the possible Kellys in 1861 Brampton Bierlow index as KELLEY. Sarah Kelley born 1790 Houghton Head and William Kelley son and wife Sarah Kelley born 1825 Mansfield Notts!!! Can you believe that!! No wonder she couldn't be found Yorks of Lancashire.
Of course as usual nothing is simple.. there are TWO Frank Kellys born 1867 and in the same area.Fortunately one Frank Kelly is with his parents (William and Hannah) in 1891 census and other Frank Kelly is with Daniel Lister in 1891 and 1901 ;D
Found the death of a Sarah Kelly Jun qtr 1870 age 47
So pieces SEEM to be coming together.
I thought I would obtained George Kelly's b/cert( only one fits) rather than ordering the wrong Frank.
Sooooo do you think I am on the right track?
Ta muchly
Eds
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My goodness - lots of information here - at first I wondered where the Kellys had come from then remembered that marriage :D
I have gone through censuses as you state and of course at the moment it is still circumspect but it would be good to get George's birth certificate as you say.
At first I thought that Sarah Mellard may be the mother of Sarah but then as you say she appears as Sarah Kelly- I think the age is out at times.
I have just found a Sarah Stones with father Thomas at:
1841 HO107; Piece 859; Book: 5; Folio: 11; Page: 14
living Mansfield aged 13 yrs so ... possibility ???
However I can't find her in 1851 and there is at least one marriage for a Sarah Stones Mansfield.
It could all be just coincidence and Dan Lister and Frank Kelly may be just plain friends- that certificate may be the answer!
regards
heywood
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Dear heywood
Well am one happy camper here !!!! The birth cert for George gives his mother as Sarah Kelly formerly STONES!!!!!
So Frank n Daniel are half brothers.
I think that find in 1841 census is "the" Sarah as when she marr William Kelly her father was Thomas.
No idea whatsoever where she is in 1851, would be great to find her there, icing on the cake yes?
Please let me know if you have other views to mine, have to have it correct aye.
Ta muchly for all your help.
Regards
Eds
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Well done ;D ;D ;D
That is super news - I still can't spot her in 1851 but the main thing is that you have such precise information.
regards
heywood
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Some info on Sarah Kelly, hope it's useful:
Widow Sarah married widower Samuel Mellard on 8/12/1828. The 1841 census shows them living at West Melton. Although all the children are name Mellard, I suspect Alford and William are Sarah's children and John is Samuel's.
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well ta for that snippet.. have just been having a look
at the Mellard name and wondering how it ties in
Eds :)