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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: Keith Sherwood on Monday 26 May 08 13:02 BST (UK)
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Hi, Everyone,
Have for some time hovered on the brink over the possibility of trying to trace one of my family lines backwards from the start of Parish Records in 1538 (in some cases). I realise that I might not have much joy, as only particular individuals are going to turn up in the medieval records
I was wondering what experience other Rootschatters may have had in this area with their own families...
I'm going to choose my mother's GURNER family, who appear to have lived in the small village of Ickleton in Cambridgeshire from at least 1538 until the end of the 19thC.
Early on the name was GOURNARD/GOURNER, and they were tenant farmers; the earliest will I have is one of 1579.
I imagine they may well have been in the area back into the 15thC and possibly before.
I'm lucky that I live a couple of miles from the excellent Cambs County Record Office and the Cambridge University Library.
I've also got hold of a copy of Paul Chambers book: "Medieval Genealogy - How to find your Medieval Ancestors". (Pub. by Sutton in 2005)
So, any tips from anyone about their own experience in this area before I take the plunge...?
Very best wishes,
keith
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Hi Keith,
How exciting! I've had no experience so am unable to offer anything constructive I'm afraid (not much medieval genealogy to research here in Australia worst luck :-\).
I was thinking of buying Paul Chambers other book "Early Modern Genealogy" which covers 1600-1838. From what I've read "Medieval Genealogy' covers the period pre 1600.
I am interested to know what you think of the book? Is it readable or a hard slog?
Best of luck in your search. (You might need some paleography lessons ;D)
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I would start by searching the National Archives Catalogue, A2A and of course the appropriate indexes of wills. My experience is that these turn up unrelated snippits which you can then set about trying to link together.
Another source is the Victoria History of the area which may be available on-line at
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/
David
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Ickleton !
If you bump into any LILLEYs pre-1700, please send 'em home ;)
Sounds great - wish you luck !
8)
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Thanks for those encouraging responses...!
Ruskie, I've only got as far as page 28 (out of 275), but so far it looks promising. Was busily scribbling down websites to look into when indulging in a little late night reading last night...
...and David, he highly recommends the Victoria History series...
...and The Newfster, have come across loads of more recent LILLEY's in Ickleton, will definitely let you know if I turn up a reference to one pre-1711...
keith
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Just an idea ... have you checked to see if anyone has done a one-name study for GOURNARD/GOURNER or GURNER ?
By sheer chance I found one for a family name, and whizzed back to 1530-ish in 20 minutes !
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Hi Keith,
As David says, consult the Archives NA... Have you found any wills or other documents listed in their catalogues?
Can you read Latin ... and Olde Englishe....
Some are available to download. Make a list and go to Kew for the day... ;D
Don't forget your cotton gloves. ;)
Have fun.. it's great back there.. ;D
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Hi Keith, good luck with the medieval family history - it sounds fascinating. I know a Sherwood by the way. Lives in Essex. Wonder if he's a relative of yours?? :)
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Thanks for all the advice, and just to say I've made my first step in the right direction by downloading "A History of the County of Cambridge and Isle of Ely: Volume 6" which deals with the Whittlesford Hundred, and more precisely Ickleton.
Twenty-one pages of close type A4 (though admittedly nine and a half pages were listed references)
A very interesting, detailed and scholarly account for more late night reading...
keith
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I did something similar to Lydart, but via a google search. If you enter a place name as well, this can whittle out the irrelevant hits.
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Had no idea all of this was possible! :D
I might investigate some of my lines using the suggestions given here. Trouble is, I'm not good at reading Old Englishe or Latin - am having enough trouble with 17th century wills!! :o :o :o
MarieC
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Having now read the Victoria History of Ickleton, I made a note that in the 1524 Lay Subsidy Roll 86 people were assessed in the village.
I'm hoping to pop up to the CCRO on Tuesday, so will see whether they might have a copy of this. Has anyone else ever tried to spot their ancestors in this particular taxation record?
Also, in my latest bedtime read: "Medieval Genealogy", it looks as though the records of the local manorial courts might prove to be a goldmine for mentioning residents in the area...
keith
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It is also worth looking at the record office (or reference library) to see if a herald's visitation to the county was published. Even if your family didn't claim a coat of arms they might have married into a family that did.
David
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Thanks for that David,
I'm giving a bit of a running - strolling, more like - commentary as I work my way through what is turning out to be an excellent book. Only on page 61 so far, and I've just had a peek in the index, and Heralds Visitations gets a good going over later in the book. Can't wait...
keith
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Hi Keith
Via Familysearch.org, I managed to trace a branch of my family from my g.grandfather back to 10 x g.grandfather. I've only a date of his death in 1662, but as my 9 x g.grandfather was born in 1570, I assume 10 x g.grandfather must have been born at least 16 years prior to that. I've yet to go to the village in Yorkshire where they were all born, baptised and buried to confirm this, but it's obviously possible to find families who all stayed in the same place.
My problem is with a different branch of the family where a g.grandfather was born in London. ::)
Lizzie
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Lizzie,
All very interesting, and yes, the main guiding impetus behind me thinking I might possibly have some joy with my particular line is that the GURNER family may well have lived in the selfsame small village right back in to the 15thC.
The man who wrote the book I keep referring to, Paul Chambers, uses many examples from the manorial records of the tantalisingly nearby place of Swaffham Prior in Cambs to illustrate how he was lucky enough (and resourceful enough) to trace his own family backwards pre-1538...
keith
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Keith ... if he has anything about Dorset, I'll buy a copy !
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Hi Keith
I've only a date of his death in 1662, but as my 9 x g.grandfather was born in 1570, I assume 10 x g.grandfather must have been born at least 16 years prior to that. I've yet to go to the village in Yorkshire where they were all born, baptised and buried to confirm this, but it's obviously possible to find families who all stayed in the same place.
Lizzie
This would mean that as a minimum your 10 x g grandfather was 108 years old when he died and was 15 when your 9 x g grandfather was conceived. I would suggest that you have been using submitted entries to family search and have fallen over the usual problems that this causes. Alternatively you have skipped a generation.
David
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Hi Keith,
Wondered if you've come acorss this site:
http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/index.html
Sounds very interesting - if only I could find my lot in 1780s ??? :(
Paulene :)
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David - Thanks for pointing that out. 9 x g.grandfather was born in 1570, so 10 x g.grandfather must have been born at least 16 years before that. However, it was the grandson, with the same name, who died in 1662, aged about 52, I'd just added the details to the wrong man when I was making my notes. As I said, I need to go to the village in Yorkshire before I confirm anything.
Lizzie
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Willow,
That looks like another very useful site...
and Lydart, will let you know if Dorset gets a mention. I'm taking it a page at the time at the moment and hoping to be taken by surprise - i.e. suddenly coming across my GURNER family traced by someone else to the year dot - only joking, of course!
(Is anyone else like me, in purposely not looking at the index if you've bought a book, so as not to spoil suddenly coming across an unexpected nugget of relevant family information. I behave completely differently when in a repository or library, skimming through indexes relentlessly, picking the bones out of what I can, with shortage of time a factor...)
keith
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OK Keith ... I'll be patient ! :-\
(But if it was me, I'd have gone through the index first with a fine tooth-comb !)
I try only to buy FH books that might be useful, so as my lot are mostly Dorset ... I wondered !
I'll wait ! :)
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Lydart,
Sorry to be so hard on you, remind me again which family/ies you're interested in down in Dorset...!
keith
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Lots !
Trowbridge, Vincent, Sturney (spelled various imaginative ways), Prince, White, Adams ...
Then there's Pomeroy in Cornwall ...
Don't dip into the index on my behalf, please Keith ... I was just curious to know if it was worth my while to buy the book.
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That medieval genealogy site looks great! Already found an article about the medieval Norreys family through it. Can't at present access the second half, so I hope I can connect them to my later Norreys! ;D
MarieC
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Hi Keith,
sounds like an interesting challenge, and the books sound like great reading.
I was lucky to attach to a family line, Overend, not quite a one name study, but he does have his own website for all to contact.
This family are back to William Overend, b.c. 1560. who married Agnes Robertshaye in 1586 Kildwick, Yorkshire. based on his charts I do match in, but I am still working my own way back to prove it to myself. ;D
The name changes over the years could be interesting, My simpson's appear to drop the 'p' in the earlier years. So perhaps someone was Sim's son, or son of Sim, ahhh but who was Sim?? ::) Yeah, I know getting a little nutty here.
Good luck with it all.
Margaret
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Perhaps Sim was a Simon ... Simonson ... and I know a Symandson ... interesting how names change
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I have also FINALLY encountered some of my rellies back in the 1500's. I almost threw a party the first time I encountered anyone in the 1500 but I now have a lovely group of them - all from the northern Herts area (country estates!!)
It's been a steep learning curve trying to work out what was happening in the UK in those days - particularly as I know next to nothing about UK history of that era - but I'm learning!!
Have fun Keith and if you find some of yours crossed the border into Herts I may have a book or two that may help (and I'll check the index first ;) )
Di
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That medieval genealogy site looks great! Already found an article about the medieval Norreys family through it. Can't at present access the second half, so I hope I can connect them to my later Norreys! ;D
MarieC
Are your Norreys the Berkshire family? If they are I might have some relevant information. I tried checking the SIT but you don't seem to have an entry for them there.
David
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Did I hear Norrey's in Berkshire ...... :o :o
They are connected to Ricot and Speke as well.
The family tree is in the book 'Hundred's of Bray'.
It's all in the Scavenger Hunt.
Keith, get on the Scavenger Hunt list.... ;D
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Hi again, Di,
Don't think we've communicated on here since they padlocked my Cambs look-up thread on here ages ago.
I only go very occasionally to the CCRO these days, but am hoping to get there next Tuesday to see what they have on the 1524 Lay Subsidy. Pssst...Need any quick look-ups whilst I'm there...?
keith
...and thanks, Lesanne, I'll see what I can scavenge there...
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Me thinks you may regret that offer Keith ;)
PM sent
:-*
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Di,
Have PM-ed you back, will see what I can find...
This morning I read an interesting article in the "Genealogists Magazine" that says the problem with medieval genealogy is the identification of wives and biological heirs (they don't get mentioned in the records!).
Descent of land does, but not the correct roots, as grandchildren, nephews, nieces, etc. may be heirs without us knowing about it.
A publication has just come out called:"Widows, Heirs and Heiresses in the late 12thC" edited and translated by John Walmsley.
There's info on English families due to the custom that widows and under-age heirs became wards of the king, and so saleable commodities; records had to be kept of their origins and worth. The document dates to 1185, covers 12 counties, and has 228 entries with names and property from minor holdings of a few shillings to large estates..
The entries name not only the widow, but often the name and ages of her children or the siblings of the heir or heiress.
The book costs £23.15 (funny price, must be converted from another currency, perhaps U.S. dollars) and the ref no is: ISBN 13 978-0-06698-353-2
Apparently, even later ag. labs. might have recorded medieval ancestors before the family went downhill economically. Families of course can slide down the social scale as well as rise up.
Back to Paul Chambers book again, after that little diversion...
keith
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There's info on English families due to the custom that widows and under-age heirs became wards of the king, and so saleable commodities; records had to be kept of their origins and worth.
Keith, would this apply to the common or garden ag. lab type person, i.e. the medieval peasant living in a mud and wattle hovel and working for the local lord of the manor ? Or wouldn't widows and orphans just have to struggle on the best they could, hoping for charity from the church when they needed it ?
(Just finished reading 'The Pillars of the Earth' ... so have got a better idea of what life was like in the 1150's !)
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::) Hmmmm..... Bedtime reading...
http://vi.uh.edu/pages/bob/elhone/seisin.html
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There's info on English families due to the custom that widows and under-age heirs became wards of the king, and so saleable commodities; records had to be kept of their origins and worth.
Keith, would this apply to the common or garden ag. lab type person, i.e. the medieval peasant living in a mud and wattle hovel and working for the local lord of the manor ? Or wouldn't widows and orphans just have to struggle on the best they could, hoping for charity from the church when they needed it ?
(
Weren't the lower class the serfs who were effectively slaves who could be bought and sold at the will of the lord of the manor?
David
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Yes, I suppose so ... life was cheap in those days ! :-\
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Not by any means being an authority on the subject - in fact a complete novice, but trying to bit by bit add to my knowledge of medieval genealogy - the slave or serf status didn't last, disappearing not long after the Norman Conquest.
Amongst the poorer people there were free as well as unfree tenants, but the bargaining position of the unfree tenants altered hugely after the ravages of the Black Death (1348-50) - supply and demand, with the population massively depleted.
The point that is being made about whether "once an ag. lab., always an ag. lab." is that fortunes could fluctuate for any family either upwards or downwards, and there's nothing to stop the possibility of a family of ag. labs. once having been quite well to do and perhaps getting a mention in the medieval records of the time...
I've also spotted the fact that if your genealogy is in the Durham area, you're luckier than most at the moment, for a database of 11,000 names is being put together from the 9th to the 16thC, commemorated in the Liber Vitae of Durham. Not sure whether there's an internet link for this yet, though.
keith
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Hi Everyone,
A very interesting thread.
Thanks Willow, found some Torr info on the medieval genealogy site.
Unfortunately my problem is proving which children born to my g/great grandfather David Holdsworth were with which wife. He had 2 , Mary Eliza Nettlem and Mary Eliza Torr ( whos traceable ancestry goes back to 1120- and I have this info- hence my hopefull user name ;D ;D) If my genealogy is from the Nettlem wife, the family name seems to have disappeared!
If I can prove any of this it also means that Iris Murdoch ( the writer) was descended from the Holdsworth /Nettlem or Holdsworth /Torr marriage also.
Iris's grandmother was the sister of my grandmother, and they were the daughters of John Shaw and Ann Elizabeth Holdsworth.
Quite an interesting family !
trish
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Not looking too promising Keith - last updated 2006:
http://www.dlv.org.uk/index.html
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Not a propos of anything really, but I've never read Iris Murdoch - however I had a recent long conversation with a woman in a bookshop about which of her novels I should choose to buy to take with me when I go on holiday to Denmark at the end of June for 10 days. She suggested "The Sea, Sea". Anyone care to comment if this was good advice...
And Ruskie, that's a disappointment, the article in the Society of Genealogist's quarterly magazine talks it up as the next exciting development in Medieval Genealogy...
keith
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Hopefully, they'll get round to completing it - I got all excited there for a minute ;D
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Me too, having just had a Scavenger hunt for my Durham ancestors ... ah well; win some, lose some.
'The Sea, the Sea' ... a MUST read by Iris. Not what I'd exactly call light fluffy sort of reading, but nevertheless, a great novel.
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Hi Keith,
I must say I have not read ANY of her books, but after researching her and finding her link to New Zealand and then getting her grandparents Marriage Cert. from N.Z. last week, will have to read some of her books. She is highly regarded and must admit have seen to movie "Iris" even before confirming our link.
Off to the Library next week ;)
Trish
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If you just want to take one book to last a whole ten days, and you are into the medieval ... then that book I quoted before is a must ... 'The Pillars of the Earth' by K(en ?) Follett. Its about 1100 pages !
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Lydart,
The North Sea ferry will probably founder and sink if I take such a large tome with me, but I'll certainly bear it in mind for later on.
And Trish, I think watching the film "Iris" last month persuaded me, simply out of curiosity, to sample one of her many books...
keith
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Hi again, Everyone,
Have nearly finished my Medieval Genealogy book now, but today I thought I'd give things a try by asking for help at the Cambs Record Office. Managed to find a very helpful book on their shelves compiled and written by a William Mortlock Palmer in 1912, entitled: "Cambridgeshire Subsidy Rolls".
In there were transcribed the names of people who had contributed to/ been mentioned by name in the County, arranged by Hundreds and then parishes within these:
Jurymen on the Assize roll of 1260; the Lay Subsidy of 1318 and 1327; the Wool Tax of 1347; the 1524 Lay Subsidy; the Poll Tax Subsidy rolls of 1377; other lists for Land Tax 1411, Income Tax for 1435, Graduated Income Tax of 1450, and finally the Clerical Poll Tax of 1379.
Not a single mention of my family GURNER anywhere - what did I expect, anyway! In the 1377 Poll Tax records the entry for Ickleton was "missing" - Hinxton down the road was described as "illegible", far more frustrating...
However, I did find an entry in the 1641 Lay Subsidy for a Robert GORNER, being taxed 20 shillings on his lands.
But an excellent book to find, nonetheless, however disheartened I have become already!
keith
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Keep at it Keith, its the only way to find anything !
One day ....
... one lucky day ...
(maybe)
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Lydart,
Course I will! It's just that it was one of those mornings at the CCRO. My medieval genealogy, looking things up for about 5 Rootschatters on here, helping a good friend of mine in Cambridge who was with me - nothing seemed to work out today, could find nothing I/we wanted...
There'll be other days, of course...
keith
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Yes, Keith, there will be - I'm sure the other rootschatters will be overjoyed at your help.
Your day will come!
Paulene :)
Been really looking forward to the updates on the post, by the way :)
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This has to be one of the more interesting threads I have read through.
I am no expert on medieval genealogy, but I have one caveat: at what point do surnames stop being surnames? Unless your ancestor is the lord of the manor, surely at some stage John Guildford becomes John of Guildford, at which point this applys to all people of the same place. I guess this is more of a problem in smaller towns or villages.
My own case in point: the Dowdeswell name seems to have originated in and around Cheltenham, Gloucestershire. There is a village of the same name nearby. Now, there is a gap in the instances that the name is mentioned in medieval records, so did the family that was lord of the manor of Dowdeswell die out, or spread out to other areas? Is the origin of the name with the landed family or from the village?
Food for thought.....
Darren
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Anyway, I'm stuck in the 1500's with my Dowdeswell's. Not enough wills, and too many John's!
Darren
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This has to be one of the more interesting threads I have read through.
I am no expert on medieval genealogy, but I have one caveat: at what point do surnames stop being surnames? Unless your ancestor is the lord of the manor, surely at some stage John Guildford becomes John of Guildford, at which point this applys to all people of the same place. I guess this is more of a problem in smaller towns or villages.
Darren
In one of my families I can date the move to around 1296. At this date I find one person calling himself John filius Edline where as in the same year someone who I think was his brother called himself William Edelin. I have found no examples of the former format after 1300 for this family. However I am not sure even in the case of John filius Edline that Edline was not already effectively a surname as I have to go back another 100 years to find the various forms of "son of" consistently referring to the Christian name of the father. Fitz is one of these forms.
Of course you get utter chaos as surnames become adopted. For example I have Edelin FitzJohn de Burgh (c1150) having six sons, three of whom started surnames as follows:
William FitzEdlin whose sons seem to have adopted the surname Edlin
Ralph FitzEdlin Lord of Aldfield whose sons adopted the surname Aldfield
Hugh FitzEdlin de Burgh whose children adopted the surname of de Burgh which I don't understand because it only means from the walled town.
David
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That medieval genealogy site is fantastic! A great mass of information on the Norreys family - I now have to sit down and work through it to trace my line. Lots of great general information there, also! It will make it much easier for those of us who know very little about medieval genealogy!
MarieC
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Hi MarieC,
Glad you're finding it useful.
I came across it a while back and stuck it on my favourites list, just in case I managed to get back that far - if only :'(
At least it's helping others. ;D
Paulene :)
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Paulene
I do hope that you will manage to get back far enough to use the site! Keep persevering, you never know! And at the very least - in the true Rootschat tradition of helpfulness to others, you've given a great boon to people like me! ;D
MarieC
PS Off to plough through all those Norreys right now!
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After my little fit of pique on Tuesday at only finding one reference to my family at my first go at medieval genealogy at the CCRO, I was thinking that if anyone with Cambs genealogy would like me to look in that excellent book:"Cambridgeshire Subsidy Rolls" next time I'm there, it really had lots of fascinating details of tax records on families as early as 1260...
keith
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http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/index.html
What was it Victor Meldrew used to say ?
'I don't believe it ...'
Well, I've just spent an hour going through the above site with a list of all the names on my tree, and NOT ONE of them occurs, not with any variation in spelling either ! As I've got about 150 surnames, I did think I might find one ... :'( :'( :'(
Ah well, once an insignificant ag.lab, always an insignificant ag.lab.
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After my little fit of pique on Tuesday at only finding one reference to my family at my first go at medieval genealogy at the CCRO, I was thinking that if anyone with Cambs genealogy would like me to look in that excellent book:"Cambridgeshire Subsidy Rolls" next time I'm there, it really had lots of fascinating details of tax records on families as early as 1260...
keith
You really shouldn't have said that Mr Sherwood ;D
Want my list now or later ;)
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Definitely later, Lady Di!
But I'll PM you when next I think I'm going to the CCRO,
keith
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Thanks Keith - I was only joking. I don't have many from Cambs anyway and you have more than enough on your plate looking for all your lot.
Good luck
Di
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Well, I'm sorry for those who can't find a family name on the medieval genealogy site. But I spent a couple of hours last night and have traced my Norreys back in a direct line to a man born ca 1110, the earliest to be called le Norreys! ;D Yee haaa!!! Of course I have no way of checking all this from Australia, but the person who compiled it has included masses of detail, and it all gives the impression of being pretty carefully researched!
No sign of my other two gentry/minor aristocracy families. But I'm happy that I've struck oil with one of them!
MarieC
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Wonderful, MarieC - you've made my day! :D
Even if I did get further back the names I'm looking for aren't on the site - Adams and Richards (not unusal enough, probably).
Never mind - it seems to have lots of interesting things to suggest in the ways of sources, etc. Something else to read, while I'm sitting scratching my head! ;D
Paulene :)
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Marie,
No need at all to feel sorry for me, or anyone else for that matter! Delighted for you, and even if this thread only throws up one such example as yours, it will all have been worthwhile...
keith
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Well done Marie ... my Adams weren't on it either !
(But of course, one can wonder if the original Adam was an ancestor ! ;D ;D ;D )
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Top notch lineage there, then, Lydart. ;D ;)
Paulene :)
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Paulene, Keith and Lydart,
Thank you so much for your kind words!
Lydard, some members of the LDS seriously think they can trace people back to the Old Testament times - not sure if they think they can trace as far as Adam! ;D ;D When I've been in there researching and been told that, I just smile sweetly and say that's pretty impressive! (Not going to bite the hand that feeds me with all these great films of PRs, etc! ;D ;D )
MarieC
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Lydard, some members of the LDS seriously think they can trace people back to the Old Testament times - not sure if they think they can trace as far as Adam! ;D ;D When I've been in there researching and been told that, I just smile sweetly and say that's pretty impressive! (Not going to bite the hand that feeds me with all these great films of PRs, etc! ;D ;D )
MarieC
The fact that it is possible to plot a tree back to biblical times is not really in dispute, it can be done.
However grave doubts must be reserved about the accuracy of any such tree.
Here in England as we progress through the medieval period written records that specify specific people become scare. It becomes almost impossible to obtain different sources of material to confirm a single mention of a name and accuracy is put in doubt.
As we progress further many/most lines then rely on Scandinavian oral history which may be extremely accurate or it may contain errors.
In a similar way Gypsy history leans heavily on oral history which in some cases is extremely accurate but in others not so.
The further back in history the scarcer the records become, even the bible must be questioned as many of the books that make up the bible were written hundreds of years after the events portrayed. Records do exist but those that do exist require translation and here experts even disagree to the meaning of such translations. ;)
The problem is not tracing a line back to biblical times but in proving the accuracy of such a line without gaps.
Cheers
Guy
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The problem with oral history is perhaps not so much its accuracy, but in interpreting it. This needs a lot of lateral thinking ! I have several examples of 'oral history' in my own family, of which I doubted the truth, but then upon careful investigation and side-ways thinking, proved to be more or less correct. Of course, the further back in time one goes, the harder it is to prove or disprove oral history ... but I'm certain there is always some grains of truth in it.
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I expect everyone remembers the furore that developed when Dan Brown's "The Da Vinci Code" came out...
I must say I got rather sucked up in it all myself and bought a book that covered the subject of being able to trace modern day descendants of Jesus Christ, called "The Magdalene Legacy" by Laurence Gardner" In the back is a huge 4-page tree tracing forward from David (c. 1000 B.C) up to Galahad in the 6th/7thC A.D.
The whole idea spawned a whole industry of unlikely genealogy at the time...
keith
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;D Marie, take a look at my Scavenger Hunt.... all 6 parts. Norrey's galore. And a tree to 1100+ something. He is a messenger of the King of Norway...
We have family in Speke,Liverpool. Ricot, Oxon and Ockwells, Bray.....
added.. will pm you Marie, to save sabotage of Keith's thread :-[
How's it going Keith. ;)
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Yes, well, Lesanne, I have the ones in Rycote Oxon, and Bray, only in the sources I have seen the place is spelled Ockholt.
We are almost certainly related! ;D
MarieC
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Lesanne,
Nothing further on the medieval scene, though I did have a wonderful time today courtesy of the Essex Record Office, who organised a free tour round that splendid medieval town, Saffron Walden, looking at all the Nonconformist Chapels.
Lovely talks in situ about the Baptists, The Quakers, the Unitarians, the Salvation Army, the Methodists - even the Roman Catholic Church, though they were a bit miffed to be included under the title of "Nonconformist".
Nothing earlier than the 17thC, though, so mustn't sabotage my own thread with more diversions...
keith
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I've taken the plunge, spent some money, and bought the book you recommended Keith ... I've already got one line back to 1550 ... but the rest :( :( :( :(
Still, the book will provide interesting bedtime reading ... in fact, I might go to bed soon ...
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i do not have anything constructive to add however i wondered if you haveever been to a medeival day - re-enactment type ting,?
they show how life was back then very well indeed, but a little advice don't take your OH with you if hes not interested all they do is groan and moan
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Lydart,
Hope you find the money well spent...
...and Toni, last time I went to a medieval re-enactment was at Scarborough Castle a few years ago - the hand to hand fighting was quite terrifying, though noisy enough to drown out any of those moans and groans!
keith
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Did you get any more ideas as to how to proceed further back than 1600, Keith ?
I've been to a Roman Legion re-enactment, and to a Civil War group ... but I suspect the medieval ones are more violent and noisy !
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Lydart,
Can't honestly say that I got very far with my own family medieval ancestry. The best sources would have to be the ones I mentioned in passing on reply/post 46 on this thread...
Regards, keith
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Medieval Family History is like doing a jigsaw puzzle from a pieces belonging to many puzzles.
Firstly you have to collect as many pieces as possible which might belong to your puzzle. When you have enogh of these you eventually find some pieces which link together. Eventually you find a key piece which links to your family or more often someone else's.
For my Edlin family I have a card index containing hundreds of unlinked pieces of information. I have about fifty trees containing about three generations which don't link anywhere. However I have managed to link about six of these to other peoples families.
David
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That's a very good way of describing it !
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For my Edlin family I have a card index containing hundreds of unlinked pieces of information. I have about fifty trees containing about three generations which don't link anywhere. However I have managed to link about six of these to other peoples families.
David
It always intrigues me to think that, once you get back to the Middle Ages, so many of us will be related in ways we hadn't ever considered!
MarieC
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hi - havent seen anyone mention the site http://medievalgenealogy.org.uk set up by Chris Phillips. Reputed to be the best on the Net. Try the lay subsidy rolls, and the poll taxes, and of course the feet of fines. They are all to one extent or another at least referred to and sometimes catalogued on that site.
Rod
Moderator Comment: URL edited to correct link - see reply #83
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Rod,
Welcome to Rootschat!
I think you'll find that Paulene gave us that (excellent) website on post 18 on page 2 of this thread. Have used it a lot, but so far without any finds for any of my families...
Regards, keith
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Please note that there is a website
http://medievalgenealogy.org.uk which is a great site,
and there is also another site,
http: //medievalgenealogy.org (without the .uk ), which is somebody taking advantage of "near misses".
The first link is the "good" site !!!!
Bob
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My apologies: I meant medievalgenealogy.org.uk; I hadnt falllen upon the other or semi duplicate; and I also hadnt noticed that Paulene had already mentioned it.
Great way to start - 2 mistakes hardly out of the blocks !!
Rod
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Great way to start - 2 mistakes hardly out of the blocks !!
I'm sure you've gotten all your bad luck out of the way by now, Rod...welcome to Rootschat ;D
Cheers,
China
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Some who know me - particularly the two ladies I work with on family history - would say that - in the American expression - "you aint seen nothin yet!"
Meaning you can expect further goofs.
Im in Canada - as the name suggests - and they are in England (the source of my genes); one of them called me a "numpty" and the other said my mind is in a "twitten".
Quiz: Can you tell from that which county I'm working in ?
Rod
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China:
all those names in the lower left corner - are those the names you are following and researching ? ie is it permitted to declare one's obsession in public ?
Rod
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In a word .... YES !
You can add yours too ...
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You can insert the information at the foot of each of your posts via your profile and then "your rootschat profile information"
I would suggest that you also put your surnames in the surname interests table. The link is via "your surname interests " at the foot of every page.
David
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Quiz: Can you tell from that which county I'm working in ?
West Country, Lancashire, Liverpool.... :D
Beware a bit of thread drift here...I may need to refer to this one frequently. Hopefully ;D
Cheers,
China
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Hi again, Everyone,
Still waiting to hear from the College of Arms about the possibility of a 1622 award of a coat of arms to a GURNER individual, which might in itself indicate a bit of into-the-medieval-period family history.
Also, on the web I have come across a list of 20 abstracts of Wills for Ickleton, one of which is for our Robert GOURNER in 1656. However, these wills start as early as 1460, and there are three for the CRUDDE/CREED family; there were two intermarriages between the GURNER's and CREED's in Ickleton. I believe they lived in neighbouring houses, right next to the Parish Church.
I've e-mailed the Cambs Record Office in the hope that these abstracted wills are in an easy to read transcribed volume, and if so, I shall be up there after Easter to trawl through them for possible mention of earlier members of the GURNER family as witnesses or beneficiaries. Bit of a long shot, but you never know...
Finally, I notice that I came across a mention of a Roger GURNARD in a subsidy roll in Stanstead, Suffolk (not that far from Ickleton)for 1524, so that might be another tenuous clue in this most difficult period/area of family research,
Regards, keith
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You've probably already thought of it Keith, but to save me trawling through all the past pages ( ! ) is there a one-name study of Gurner's in their various spellings ?
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Lydart,
No, I don't think there is one, though there's not a huge number of threads thrown up when you search for GURNER. Think I'm a bit alone out there with them, though, as most of them were started by me!
keith
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You're obviously the One Name Study person then !
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Medieval Family History is like doing a jigsaw puzzle from a pieces belonging to many puzzles.
Firstly you have to collect as many pieces as possible which might belong to your puzzle. When you have enogh of these you eventually find some pieces which link together. Eventually you find a key piece which links to your family or more often someone else's.
That is so true!
Hi,
I want to do a nice family tree for my in-law’s as a wedding anniversary present. I’d like to do it back from my husband and his brother, probably 5 generations and include names, occupations, locations and dates. Also maybe a few pictures of family members and maybe churches/houses. Does anyone know if there are programmes that make this possible, or any good companies that can do it? I vaguely remember reading about a programme where you can design your own very large tree, and then send it off to be printed on large paper, but I can’t remember the name.
Thanks
Vicki
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Hi Ruskie, This posting is probably too late to be of much use now, several months after the posting, but I have read the Medieval Genealogy Book, and found it to be quite readable and very interesting. I already have one medieval genealogy concerning my probable 3 great grandmother, Betty Meatyard of Dorset (From memory 1759-1809), which takes her ancestry back to around 1300. I understand that the tree was compiled from medieval documents held at Cambridge University. Her ancestors were tenant farmers in Dorset. Though the tree is well documented my frustration is that through illegitimacy, she had at least 7 children and had bastardy orders for only2!,I have so far been unable to certainly connect her as my ancestor. No doubt I shall make several further postings on medieval genealogy as I read through the list, but so far I haven't had the guts to start out.
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HI
I have oonly just spotted this thread
I have had some success with wills taking me back either before PRs for a parish started or to make connections where there are no records I can find. The key resource for this was the Surrey Wills on British Origins which are derived from work by Cliff Webb of the West Surrey FHS.
I have also recently transcribed and translated my first two latin docs- both feet of fines from 1683 and 1706. These used a diabolical hand and numerous abbreviations, which combined with a lack of Latin made it a little tricky. So earlier work holds no terrors for me.
I do have two sizeable trees going back through medieval period, but these are derived from published trees.
I have already found the medieval genealogy website.
There are some fantastic resources on the internet to learn those difficult hands and to understand the format of some of these documents to help to understand them.
Only one thing I need - more time!
Bob
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Yes, thank you redroger - it IS too late. I have also purchased and read the book ;D and found it most enjoyable. Thanks anyway.
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Like Stonechat I have had some success with wills, though so far nothing before 1538, but three in the later 16th century. One the Will of Osmond Luffman (1599-1671) enabled me to trace the movement of my own line from Wiltshire into Dorset, the unusual name Osmond being a big help. It was really very fortunate, the will had also survived the fire of Blandford (1731), the end of every line had severe scorch marks, and none of the lines was entirely complete. With a Bottisham ancestry eventually I shall make the pilgrimage to Cambridge Record Office, I just hope the early Bottisham documents have been transcribed.
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Redroger,
In the next week or so I'm hoping to visit the CCRO to look at the transcriptions of those early Ickleton wills (from 1460). Would you like me to ask about, or even get hold of, that Bottisham will for you?
I love your account of the will with scorch marks!
keith
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Thanks Keith, The Osmond Luffman will was at Dorset RO, not Cambridge. There are documents from the Medieval Period relating to Bottisham which are referred to in "The Medieval Genealogy" book, some of which have been transcribed. The surnames I am interested in for Cambridgeshire are as listed at the bottom of my postings, Stimpson is not relevant to Bottisham, but please add Willis which might be. A transcription of any of these documents could be helpful, thanks.
Roger
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O.K. Roger,
I'll see what there is on those Cambs surnames that you list, plus WILLIS - might get there on Friday afternoon after a visit to the dentist...
keith
Am I particularly looking at Bottisham?
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Keith,
Bottisham is the village referred to in Chambers' book ,and the village where my ancestors lived, but I would be interested in anything from neighbouring villages, as there seems to have been quite a lot of them there too. Thanks again, hope the dentist visit goes OK
Roger
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Hi again, Everyone,
The dentist had to numb my whole jaw to manage the half-an-hour's drilling he had to do, so I was pretty incoherent and feeling ever so slightly unwell when I turned up at the CCRO this afternoon...
The abstracted wills made fascinating reading - as early as 1460 - and all sorts of people and items to do with the local church were the beneficiaries. Just one mention, in a 1595 will of Johanne BARRETT, widow, of Johanne GURNARDE her god-daughter being given 6s and 8d (was that a mark?). Exciting stuff in itself.
They've also had a bit of a recent re-organisation of their shelves, and none of the books containing the indexed wills for the various ecclesiastical courts were there.
So, Roger, I simply looked in the Bottisham PR's to see when those families of yours first appeared:
AYRES: first baptism 1696; BRIGNELL no mention; CORNWELL: first baptism 1816, first marriage 1579, first burial 1752; HARVEY: first baptism 1780, first marriage 1605, first burial 1630; SHIPP, first marriage 1664, first burial 1704; STUBBINGS, first baptism 1789, first burial 1618; WILLIS, first baptism, 1837, first marriage, 1757, first burial 1781...
Sorry that it's not what you wanted really, but I soon took myself home for a bit of a lie down. Will have a proper look next time, perhaps there's something there of use, anyway...
Regards, keith
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In the 10th century a mark was worth 100 pence and in Norman times 13s 4d although there was never a coin of either value actually issued. It just appeared in various accounts.
David
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David,
I wonder what Johanna spent her six shillings and eight pence on in 1595...
This one item of discovery is extremely interesting, in that Johanne was the first child of the marriage between William GURNARDE and Rose BASSETT, and she was born in 1578.
She married an Edward CREED in 1613 in Ickleton, and that's when we think the family Bible (now in Australia, I think) came into the family, as both their names were written inside. It was an early Geneva Bible...
keith
N.B. I'm also wondering about the transcription of Johanna BARRETT's name, and if she could have been the same family as Rose BASSETT, posssibly her sister, and therefore an aunt to 17-year-old Johanne GURNARDE. I'd better go back and have a look at those Ickleton registers. As I've said before on this thread, the GURNARDE/GOURNER family and the CRUDDE/CREED family were certainly intertwined by marriage...
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Thanks very much for looking Keith, i don't think I could have done it after a visit to the dentist. It's a start, and interesting that they apparently weren't there pre 1538. So, I wait the results of the next time you are able to visit.
Roger
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Right you are, Roger...
And David, I realise now that I was in error imagining that 6s and 8d was a mark. A mark, as you rightly say, was two thirds of a pound. The 6s and 8d that my ancestor got in 1595 was a noble - just looked it up, and apparently Henry V111 introduced this gold coin in 1526.
Now THAT would have been an interesting artefact to have been passed down through the family! But I'm sure Johanne GURNARDE kept it and maybe spent it on a rainy day...
keith
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there is a will for Rabige Gurnarde
Date 02 December 1572 at the national archives-no idea if any link
and also Will of Richard Curdde of Ickleton, Cambridgeshire 18 May 1528
do you want me to get you a copy?
presumably you have this later one
Description Will of Robert Gourner, Yeoman of Ickleton, Cambridgeshire
Date 11 November 1656
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Hi again, mc8,
And thanks very much for pointing those out for me! I hadn't realised the existence of that Rabige Gurnarde will - does it say on TNA where he was from or where he was living? I'll look that up after I've completed this e-mail and perhaps pay my £3-50 and download it.
I do indeed have a copy of that 1656 Robert GOURNER will, and am aware of the following CRUDDE/CURDDE/CREEDE wills in Ickleton for 1460, 1484 and 1528.
I might as well here list the surnames of the other wills that appear in the slim volume of handwritten (later ones typed out) abstracts of wills that a gentleman whose name I forgot to note down on Friday painstakingly transcribed - in many cases translating from the Latin.
SPALDING in 1476; PYRY in 1484; SMECHURST in 1493; FULSTON in 1493; WARDE in 1495; BREWET in 1498; CAREWE in 1501; CLERKE in 1552; SWANNE in 1558; BLANCKES in 1570 and 1597; BARRET in 1574; CALTON in 1575; PROCTOR (the Ickleton vicar) in 1588; and THURLOWE in 1602...
Those are the early ones out of the list of 20, and I'm already wondering about the correct transcription of Surnames with regard to BARRET or BASSETT (see earlier post on this thread).
So, if any Rootschatters recognise a name variant there that might be their own family name, I could copy out the will when next at the CCRO,
Regards, keith
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don't pay! I get them free
I've downloaded the Gurnarde will-pm me and I'll email a copy
Monique
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So far all my names have been conspicious by their absence. Never mind, they were obviously law abiding peasants who had nothing to leave behind. Unlike my father's side, at least two transportations, marriages in the Fleet prison, bastardy orders etc.etc.
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Monique,
That's an exciting development! I'll PM you my e-mail address now...
keith
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I have 2 of my families going way back. One goes back to 1300 the other one to 1024 but I have been very lucky in that they have been titled people.
I started by just putting a name from my family that I already had into Google and eventually came up with a whole family history on line. One lot were in Peerage.com so it gave me a lot of information. Some were Earls, Viscounts, Lords and Knights. Pity the title hasn't arrived at my house.
The other family have had a lot of information written about them, again some Knights and a lot of Church people including Archdeacons. They also owned land and Manor houses and were close to the Royal families.
A lot of this information was passed on to me through another family member as we share the work.
It has been worth the work involved to find that my families have been so important but it makes me wonder where all of the money and the titles have gone. I do know one branch went to America.
I hope you have some luck in finding your family. Don't give up too easily, it took me a long time but was so worth it.
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Otters,
Yes, I'm still hanging on to the remote possibility that the College of Arms will come back with a link between my GURNER family and the GURNEY family of East Anglia as I've mentioned earlier in this thread - haven't heard a thing yet, and it's been a few weeks since we sent of the cheque!
Meanwhile, have been reading through a very interesting book called: "Forgotten Families of Suffolk and Essex" by Evelyn Wright that links up some of the most eminent families from the area including the BROOKE's, the BROWNE's, the BULL's, the CAPELL's, the CARY's, the CLOPTON's the DARCY's, the HUNT's, the HARVEY's, the KNIGHTON's, the GAGE's, the MORDAUNT's, to name but a few...
They owned (and still do in some cases) some rather grand homes,
keith
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I have some Harveys in my tree at Bottisham Lode. Any links to see if they are connected please?
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Exactly 4 weeks tomorrow since we sent away our cheque to the College of Arms. Should a wait of this nature indicate good news, bad news, or no news, I wonder...?
keith
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Otters,
Yes, I'm still hanging on to the remote possibility that the College of Arms will come back with a link between my GURNER family and the GURNEY family of East Anglia as I've mentioned earlier in this thread - haven't heard a thing yet, and it's been a few weeks since we sent of the cheque!
Meanwhile, have been reading through a very interesting book called: "Forgotten Families of Suffolk and Essex" by Evelyn Wright that links up some of the most eminent families from the area including the BROOKE's, the BROWNE's, the BULL's, the CAPELL's, the CARY's, the CLOPTON's the DARCY's, the HUNT's, the HARVEY's, the KNIGHTON's, the GAGE's, the MORDAUNT's, to name but a few...
They owned (and still do in some cases) some rather grand homes,
keith
Hi Keith,
I have Evelyn Wright's book "Forgotten Families of Hertfordshire" which also has many of the eminent families of Herts too. The big bonus was that 90% are my ancestors as well. I wasn't aware that she had also written the Essex/Suffolk book. I must try and find a copy as some of the names you have mentioned are also in the Herts book.
I just checked and your Gurner family isn't mentioned in the Herts book :(
I also contacted the College of Arms the same time that you did and I haven't heard a peep from them either - they obviously don't want my money ::)
Good luck in the Medieval era - it's lots of fun.
Di
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Hi again! Lady Di.
Yes, it's a book packed full of interesting anecdotes about those families, lots of family trees. Think I bought it in a bookshop in Bishop's Stortford...
Actually this morning it's a wonderfully sunny day in Cambridge and I'm off to Long Melford in Suffolk where I've been doing some researching for a friend and his family, but today I'm going to have a good look inside that wonderful parish church there for the first time; and also Melford Hall, which I think will be less over-run with people than Kentwell Hall just up the road. I imagine I'll be coming across memorials to the CLOPTON family here and there...
And as for the College of Arms, have checked my bank account, and the £65 was definitely paid in over three weeks ago, so hopefully they've been busy on the proceeds - as with your request too, I trust,
Regards, keith
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The best place for searching medieval stuff in or around the Durham area is here... Link (http://flambard.dur.ac.uk/dynaweb/handlist)
Here's the book 'liber vitae' for Durham. Link (http://www.archive.org/details/libervitaeeccles00durhrich)
Can i join the club? I've recently gone medieval, i think!... :D
I originally started the family tree many years ago to see why my grandfather's name 'Rewcastle Armstrong' came from, after some time i discovered the first 'Rewcastle Armstrong' born in 1776, to John Armstrong and Ann Rewcastle. John and Ann were married in 1768 at Hexham, Northumberland.
Ann's grandfather Nicholas Rewcastle lived at Fallowfield and Cocklaw in the parish of St John Lee, within 5 1/2 miles from Hexham, Northumberland.
I have a basic tree going back to a marriage in 1596 when the Rewcastle's were still living in the same area, recently i have found Roger Rewcastell, John Rewcastell, Mylles Rewcastell in the muster roll for 1538 at Keepwick, in the Parish of St John lee, Northumberland. Keepwick used to be a medieval village, it is now a farm and is located 3 fields from Cocklaw.
The first recorded person with the name of Rewcastle (or various spellings of it), was William de Ruecastle mentioned in the 'Ragman Rolls' in 1296. There was also another, or possibly the same William de Roucastell mentioned in the Great seal of Scotland as receiving a pension from King Robert Bruce (1306-1329).
Last night i found John of Ruecastle mentioned in charters of the burgh of Peebles (1458 -1476), 62 years earlier the the Rewcastell's at Keepwick.
The location of the place Ruecastle where the surname came from is just outside Jedburgh, it lies approx 50 miles north of Keepwick, Northumberland and the road adjoining Keepwick/Cocklaw is called the Jedburgh road.
Rewcastle.
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A few years ago I was given a tree by a researcher which dates back to c1300. She had carefully researched the detail using Manorial Records etc. held by a college at Cambridge University. If I can get over an illegitimacy hurdle in 1776, then I have my paternal 2great grandfather's maternal tree (think that's right!) back over 20 generations. The family were tenant farmers in Dorset, not Aristocracy or anything like that; the big problem is getting over the damned hurdle, the mother had 7 or 8 illegitimate children and made no claims against the parish, so there is no paper trail.
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All very interesting, Redroger - and welcome to the club, Rewcastle, you certainly have some exciting links there...
Did get inside Long Melford Church (High Trinity) in Suffolk today, and there were some splendid small fragments of medieval stained glass. Amongst the best I have seen.
No further medieval family history links, though. Melford Hall was closed, had misread the N.T. handbook, but at least had a stroll round the house and in its park, pretending that I owned the place for an hour or so...
keith
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Hi again, Everyone,
An update to say that finally after just over 6 weeks we've had our reply from the College of Arms, with a nice letter from the assistant to the "Rouge Dragon" to say that there were absolutely no entries anywhere for the surname GURNER.
Looks as though our Victorian ancestors went in for a bit of wishful thinking, trying to associate themselves with a nearby branch of the GURNEY family.
So, anyway, not exactly plunging with any tangible leads into the medieval ancestry maelstrom just yet...
Regards, keith
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The Victorians were very bad at this type of thing, Victorian Gothick for one thing, bad restorations of Medieval churches for another. Just other pitfalls, and now they mucked about with genealogical records too!