RootsChat.Com
Research in Other Countries => New Zealand => New Zealand Completed Requests => Topic started by: sparrett on Monday 26 May 08 06:15 BST (UK)
-
Hi All,
My first excursion to NZ boards. I have not had much success with this search when going it alone with the listed resources. Inexperience I think!
From the usual UK sources....
THOMAS BENNETT McBETH [sometimes Beunett?] born 1850.
He died in Sydney Australia in 1924.
Parents were William Mcbeth and Charlotte [nee Roffe] who married 1847, St Martin
Mother, Charlotte and child Thomas Bennett McBeth are on 1851 census. Cannot see the family after that.
Meantime my Great grandmother's sister is born in c. 1850 in Stepney Middx.
She is Elizabeth Catherine Mary MASON. Parents, James Samuel and Eliza[nee Hayes][Details in hand]
She died Sydney, NSW 1941
She is with her family in 1861.
In 1875 in NEW ZEALAND a boy is born named
Thomas Albert George Mcbeth
Place WAITAMI. NZ
Another searchers' information from internet gives me this DOB & Place of birth for Thomas Albert George. Says he was born in WAITAMI.
Thomas Albert George McBeth died in Sydney, NSW 1959 and his parents are listed as listed as THOMAS BENNETT MCBETH and Elizabeth Catherine.
When I google WAITAMI, google says 'Do you mean WAITAME?' and I have to say 'I don't know ??? '
I have a passenger list showing a Thomas McBeth travelling from Auckland to Sydney in 1871 aboard 'Hero'.
Can anyone help me to find the marriage of Thomas Bennett McBeth and Elizabeth Mason. It is not obvious in NSW, so I am thinking it was in NZ.
Any information on his parents, William Mcbeth and Charlotte would be most welcome too.
Thanks,
Sue
-
Hi Sue
Here's the marriage:
1878 Folio Ref: 2145
Thomas Bennett MacBETH
Elizabeth MASON
Bren.
-
Oh Thanks Bren,
That is fantastic!
I have not been quite sure till this moment that the points of the story were on the right track.
Looks like they had time to contemplate marrying while they gazed at the baby!
Are you able to shed any light on the Waimati versus Waimate issue?
Sue
-
Hi Sue
Given your first spelling of "Waitami", I was thinking:
Waitaki
Waitangi
Waitati
The best way to confirm this is to check the fiche for Births.
I was at the Library only this morning, so won't be going again just yet....
What does his death cert say for pob?
Bren.
-
Hi Bren,
No, I don't have his cert. and probably won't get it as he is in the twig rather than branch category.
That of course would settle things.
The spelling from the other researcher is WAIMATI.
I will do bit more google map work!
Thanks Bren,
Sue
-
.... .
-
Thank you Mk2_Zephyr for replying with help on the name of the place.
I appreciate your kindheartedness in going out of your way for my twig.
It seems that is what we all do on RC. - myself included over the many years.
The forum is founded on curiosity and generosity, so there is no need to admonish.
Who knows, maybe I'll be able to go out of my way similarly for you one day. Hope so!
Sue
-
Hi Sue
Welcome ;D
Can't see a Thomas McBEth on the 1881 or 1891 electoral rolls
and nothing on the BUrial locator Cd or archives
Sorry
Lots of Mcbeth entries at Papers past
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast that may be worth a trawl
Bye
Althea
-
Hi Althea,
Thanks for checking the rolls.
It looks as if they departed for Australia before 1881 then.
The son Thomas Albert George married in Sydney in 1907.
I am very happy to have the information I have from this board.
Sue
-
.... .
-
.... .
-
Mk2_Zephyr
I don't feel inclined to follow this line of inquiry any further.
A couple of the NZ team have been helpful.
Sue
-
Yeah its not personal, :)
just an overwelming number of people coming on here, REFUSE to buy any certificates and still expect others to go out and get all their information. Twig or branch usually requires the same amount of effort and there is nothing more annoying for us (the getters) than to be told after spending all day in a library, that the info is to rule out people or that it doesn't really matter .... yada yada.
:)
Mk2_Zephr
Perhaps one should have a quick look at the previous postings of those who are new to the NZ board to see how helpful they have been to other 'chatters. It may also help one gauge their experience in family history research.
Let your words be purrs instead of hisses. - Fannie Roach Palmer
Cando
-
.... .
-
Hi Sparrett,
Welcome to the NZ Board.
I hope to get to National Library tomorrow and will check for the 1875 birth of T.A.G. MCBETH for you. If not tomorrow, certainly by Friday.
Regards, riley
-
Hi There Riley,
Oh , thank you so much. Confirming the unsubstantiated birth date I have will make a lot of difference. If it is correct,[ 1875] the mother Elizabeth Mason may have been only 15 when she had this child-- Thomas Arthur George.
There are of course many other points at which the dating and information I have may have gone wrong. These hitches, I hasten to add, can include "certified information" and census marterial.
Thank you again, and I mean you to take it peronally!1 ;D
Sue
-
Hi Sue
The birth index will only confirm that a birth was registered in a particular quarter and give the registration area.
It will not give the exact date OR the parents names.
You would need a birth cert for that......
See stickies at the top for information recorded on certificates.
Bren.
-
Hi Bren and thanks for that information.
I will be pleased to have the year confirmed and the area too.
Regards, Sue
-
.... .
-
Hi Sparrett,
Mk2_Zephyr has beaten me to it - no birth for a T A G McBeth in 1875, 1874 or 1876, I'm sorry.
Mk2's reference to 'ITM' means checking the Intention to Marry Notice (this was essentially a marriage licence) usually completed a week prior to the wedding which gave information about the parties (see my post discussing Intention to Marry Notices at the top of this Board). Since the 1787 MCBETH/MASON marriage took place prior to 1880 I can check the ITM for you without needing the date or place if you'd like.
If you intend purchasing a copy of the marriage certificate I suggest that you request a original copy of the 1878 marriage, http://www.bdm.govt.nz/pubforms.nsf/URL/RequestforCertificateBDM93.pdf/$file/RequestforCertificateBDM93.pdf and not an Electronic Printout. With the former you will get a direct copy, while the latter is the result of someone's else transcription which never seems to include the witnesses!
This won't help with T A G McBeth. Do you have an age at death for him which might suggest what time period to look? And where did the date 1875 come from if it now appears to be incorrect?
Regards, riley
-
Hi Riley
All your guidance is appreciated.
It is primarily the marriage which interests me. I was seeing the supposed birth date of Thomas Albert, which now seems highly doubtful, as a pointer to this marriage.
This obviously doubtful birth information came from a searcher who has a vast family tree on line. It was my first hint at a search in NZ. I do not know him and do not know his sources.
http://www.ozigen.com/p1445.htm
I am very pleased to have the marriage year for Elizabeth Catherine Mason and Thomas Bennett McBeth.
Not sure when the McBeths came to Australia, but from bdmNSW.
Death. 13015/1924. McBeth, Thomas B. F. William. M. Charlotte. Granville
Death. 16675/1941. McBeth, Elizabeth Catherine. F. James Samuel. m. Eliza.
Death. McBeth, Thomas Albert G. F. Thomas Beunett. M Elizabeth. Hurstville.
A probable brother of Thomas Albert, [whose existence is supported by family chat]
Death. 27446/1953 McBeth, Robert Charles. F. Thomas. M. Elizabeth. Petersham.
A couple of marriages show for Thomas and Robert. 1903 and 1907.
Sue
-
.... .
-
.... .
-
Hi Sue
PapersPast gives Elizabeth MacBeth, described as the wife of Thomas MacBeth in the local Oamaru paper, The North Otago Times, Volume 1499, Issue XXV, 5 February 1877, Page 2 giving evidence at the inquest of a neighbour.
Unfortunately most other references that I saw refer to Shakespeare, but it does confirm residency and the locally accepted spelling of the name.
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/browse.html
Regards Terry
-
Hi Sue,
Here you go.
Intention to Marry Notice. Archives NZ Ref: BDM 20/23 1878 Timaru p. 793/43.
Notice dated 8 July: Thomas Bennett MCBETH, bachelor, a plasterer aged 27 years living at Timaru (length of residence 4 years) to marry Elizabeth MASON, a spinster aged 27 years living at Timaru (length of residence 4 years) at the Registrar’s Office, Timaru.
Regards, riley
-
Thank you Riley and Terry. ;D ;D ;D ;D
The newspaper item that Terry found made very interesting reading. It was a little eerie to read the words of an ancestor as she spoke at the inquest regarding the death of a neighbour. Quite wonderful.
The intention to marry notice tells me such a lot!
It begins to look as if they knew each other at home in England [both were born in Middlesex]
Both had been in the same place in NZ..Timaru, up to the application
Both their fathers were in builidng, Elizabeth's father was a builder and Thomas' a carpenter and now I see that Thomas was a plasterer.
They arrived in the same year, making it possible they travelled together.
In the inquest notice dated 1877 that Terry found Elizabeth declares herself to be the wife of Thomas MacBeth even though the marriage was not till 1878.
So we have the common- law marriage situation. Probably the birth date of of the son Thomas Albert [1875 per another researcher, unsubstantiated] may well be correct. Just after the arrival of the couple into NZ.
By the late 1880's the family were in Sydney and, when Elizabeth's nephew stowed away on a ship from England, he finally made his way to her and Tom McBeth who looked after him in Sydney. He was 16 years old and was dumped in Adelaide, the ships first port of call, with nothing.
Warmest thanks to all who have taken an intererst in my mystery. I have learnt much more than just some facts about my ancestors. I appreciate the time put in on my account.
Regards, Sue
-
Hi Sue,
I've just remembered to tell you that I also checked the RGO Birth Indexes for T A G McBeth up to 1890 but didn't find him.
Could he have been born in AUS? Do you have his age at death? I cannot understand why I can't find him.
Regards, riley
-
Hi Riley,
Only the other researcher's dating is what I have on the birth and death of Thomas Abert.
I can order a transcription of his death certificate to support [ or otherwise].
This process takes a little while. Unlike Victorian certificates, they cannot be downloaded online.
The informamation I have comes from the other searcher's page.....
http://www.ozigen.com/p1445.htm
and from
http://www.bdm.nsw.au
It is not out of the question, I suppose that he was born at sea on the voyage over, but he would still need to be registered wouldn't he?.
Sue
-
Thomas Albert George Macbeth ... 1875 ... Waimate
Robert Charles Macbeth ... 1877 ... Oamaru
-
Thank you,Zephyr.
Sue
-
Hi Sue
There are a number of McBeth burials recorded in the Timaru Cemetery:
http://www.timaru.govt.nz/index.asp?sidenav=servnav.html&mainpage=services/cemeteries/index.html
Don't know if related, but two of these "John and Mary McBeth" would have resided there at the same time as your Thomas and Elizabeth.
There is a bit of a headstone photo muddle between the two John McBeth's so look at Mary's instead. I have emailed Timaru to sort this out.
regards Terry
-
Terry.
Well now that's interesting. It is possible that they were related [notwithstanding the spelling differences]
Thomas' parents, Chalrotte and William were married in 1847 and Thomas born in 1850, so for this John to be a brother is unlikely.
However, he may possibly have been an uncle. That was a very good find thank you!
Sue
-
Thomas Bennett McBeth/MacBeth and Elizabeth Catherine Mary Mason are my branch (well, my husband's branch, anyway), so I thought I might weigh in and add what I know.
This couple were both living in NZ by 1872, in time for the birth of their daughter Eliza Charlotte (my husband's gr. grandmother). She was born on 11th December 1872, in Cashel Street East, Christchurch (registered in Jan 1873) - I have a copy of the entry to prove it!. Her father's profession is listed as a Plasterer, and her mother is listed as Elizabeth MacBeth, formerly Mason, so they were doing the common law thing well by 1872 as well.
I was not able to find their marriage cert, because I was looking in the wrong period (1868 to 1872), assuming, of course, that they were legally married before producing offspring, and that all the details attached to all Birth/Death certificates I have concerning this couple were correct (age when married - 22 for Thomas and 21 for Elizabeth, according to their Death Certs). Hmm, next time, I'll be Devil's advocate and widen my search.
The MacBeth family, complete with sons Thomas and Robert, had moved to NSW by 1883, as Thomas senior to appears in the Sands Business Directory for that year, as a Plasterer. He also appears in 1887, and Elizabeth has entries for 1887 and 1888, as a midwife. They move to Victoria by April 1892, as they are resident in the town of Warracknabeal, in time for daughter Eliza Charlotte's marriage to William Alexander Patterson. Elizabeth was practicing as a midwife at the time, including the birth of eldest granddaughter Jessie Lillian Patterson in the June of 1892 (married just in time!). By 1898, they are back in Sydney and both listed in the Sands directory for that year.
Interestingly enough, Eliza Charlotte returned home in 1904 for the birth of her youngest son, Sydney, which unfortunately did not go well - she died at her parent's house, at 341 Cleveland Street, Redfern, on 16 August 1904, the day after he was born. Maybe it was a troublesome pregnancy, hence the return home? She was buried in Rookwood Cemetery, Sydney, leaving husband William to bring up their six young children alone, back in Warracknabeal.
Thomas and Elizabeth also had an adopted daughter, Pearl, who married James Henry Brooks in 1906 in Windsor, NSW. Not sure if she was adopted in NZ or NSW, however.
How's that for some further info on this couple?!?
Regards
Jenny
-
Dear Jenny,
With great excitment I will take a little time out to read and absorb your wonderful contribution to my McBeth search.
It is a big thrill to have contact with you and many thanks for taking the time to post.
Back to you soon. ;D
Best wishes, Sue
-
Hi wiglet,
It has been very interesting reading your information and putting the pieces in their place.
Thanks again and welcome to Rootschat. I hope you get as much fun from the forum as I do. The helpers on this and the Australian board have opened a whole new world to me over the years.
Following my new knowledge from your posting, I have found another researcher on the net interested in the PATTERSONS of Warracknabeal.
Here is the link..
http://www.netspeed.com.au/dryandra1/pvhayse%20html/fam/fam01269.html
I am pretty sure the researcher is not you as some info you have given on this board is absent form the webpage....such as informaton about the number of PATTERSON children etc.
You may like to know some details about the MASON's [Elizabeth's people]which I hold. These include census findings before the marriages of the MASON children
Most particularly I have events about ELIZA MASON , your Elizabeth's sister [It looks as if the daughter ELIZA Charlotte may have been named for her and the name goes back another generation too!] and her family, both in Australia and England.
Our exchanges may not be of great interest to the general R.chat community so as soon as we can, perhaps you would like to use the Personal Message system of R.chat to exchange information .
This is done by clicking on the little green scroll sort of icon on the left of the message body, just near the little wee face thing. There is a link on R,chat explaining the whole thing somewhere. I'll have a look.
BUT As a newby you won't be able to use the Personal Message system till you have posted 3 times on the open board.
{Any little prattle will do ;D}
After that we can enjoy a nice exchange if you like :D
Bye for now,
Sue
-
Hi Sue,
Thanks for your prompt reply.
It is very interesting to find out that Elizabeth Mason had other family in Australia, other than her husband and children. I have been able to find English Census info about her parents and siblings, but nothing more than that, and certainly not a thing about their descendants.
There are a few other Patterson researchers out there, and the information is fairly extensive on that side of the family (the fact that they didn't move around quite so much makes things easier in that respect, as well, but sometimes the challenge is half the fun, isn't it?).
I will get my minimum number of posts done ASAP, so that we can then exchange messages on this.
Regards
Jenny
-
Hi Jenny,
I wonder if you would be kind enough to give me the names of the children of Eliza Charlotte MacBeth and William Patterson if you have them.
Just to add to the branches ;D
Sue
-
Hi Sue,
Yes, can give you the children's names and details - I just wasn't sure about how much information you were after on the Patterson branch (can do 4 more generations past that as well, if you are interested - just depends on how much branching you want!).
i. JESSIE LILLIAN PATTERSON, was born 26 Jun 1892 at Lyle Street, Warracknabeal, VIC, AUS, and died 11 Apr 1964 in Heidelberg, VIC, AUS. She married GEORGE THOMAS KINGSTON CROCKFORD, 7 Mar 1923 in Warracknabeal, VIC, AUS, son of GEORGE WILLIAM CROCKFORD and ELLEN FURBER BURCOMBE. He was born 27 Sep 1890 in Mailors Flat, VIC, AUS, and died 19 Oct 1950, Warracknabeal, VIC, AUS
ii. FLORENCE CHARLOTTE PATTERSON, was born 1894 in Warracknabeal, VIC, AUS, and died Dec 1987 in Stawell, VIC, AUS. She married WILLIAM TANGEY, 1913 in VIC, AUS, son of WILLIAM TANGEY and ELIZABETH JAMIESON. He was born 1887 in Stawell, VIC, AUS, and died 1965 in Ballarat, VIC, AUS.
iii. ELIZABETH OLIVE PATTERSON, was born 1896 in Warracknabeal, VIC, AUS, died 6 Jul 1905 in Warracknabeal, VIC, AUS, and was buried 9 Jul 1905 in Warracknabeal Cemetery, Warracknabeal, VIC, AUS.
iv. EVA-ANNIE PATTERSON, was born 1898 in Warracknabeal, VIC, AUS, and died 24 Feb 1995 at Sunnyside Lutheran Rest Home, Horsham, VIC, AUS. She married WALTER JACOB HOOPER, 1921 in Warracknabeal, VIC, AUS, son of JOHN HOOPER and ELIZA WILLOUGHBY. He was born 1883 in Nhill, VIC, AUS, and died 1941 in Horsham, VIC, AUS.
v. MARY ANN PATTERSON, was born 1900 in Warracknabeal, VIC, AUS, and died 1959 in Colac, VIC, AUS. She married JAMES HIGGINS.
vi. SYDNEY THOMAS WILLIAM PATTERSON, was born 15 Aug 1904 at 341 Cleveland Street, Darlington, Municipality of Redfern, NSW, AUS, and died 19 Jul 1942 in Adelaide River, NT, AUS. He married (1) CATHERINE MARTIN, 1926 in VIC, AUS, daughter of JAMES MAXWELL MARTIN and JESSIE BALDWIN. She was born 1906 in Landsborough, VIC, AUS, and died 1939 in Prahran, VIC, AUS. He married (2) JANET ASH, Jan 1942 in VIC, AUS, daughter of WILLIAM ASH and FRANCES VIGAR. She was born 1906 in Lake Boga, VIC, AUS, and died in 1985 in Swan Hill, VIC, AUS.
All the descendants are pretty much located in the Wimmera area, still, except for Syd's, who were in Swan Hill (he died in a truck accident while on active service in WWII, leaving behind his new second wife who was pregnant at the time, his first wife having died in childbirth, which has tragic parallels with his own childhood).
Will PM you some other info shortly.
Regards
Jenny