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General => Armed Forces => World War Two => Topic started by: David Layne on Sunday 25 May 08 12:47 BST (UK)
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This picture was taken at a pub that I believe is "The Parklands" Boultham Park Road Lincoln in June of 1941. The aircrews depicted are from 50 Squadron flying Hampdens from Swinderby.
From left to right are pictured "Wally" Layne (my father), "Woof" Welford, "Johnnie" Tytherleigh (with pipe) and an unknown airman.
Wally and Johnnie completed their tours with 50 Squadron. Wally moving onto 97 Squadron was shot down 23 September 1943, captured and taken prisoner he survived the war.
Johnnie went to 617 Squadron and was lost on the Dams Raid. Johnnie was front gunner for S/L Maudsley in Lancaster ED937 (AJ-Z).
Woof Welford completed his tour with 50 Squadron. I have no details of what happened to him after leaving 50 Squadron but know he survived the war.
Any help with further information on these Airmen and the identity of the Unknown Airman would be appreciated.
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Another picture taken at "The Parklands" in the summer of '41.
From left to right, Unknown Airman from previous picture, an Unknown Soldier and Woof Welford.
Can anyone supply the names of the two unknown servicemen?
edited. The airman on the left has been identified as Stew Hobson.
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This isn't what you asked for David ... but I came across this and thought I would post !
617 Squadron .......... Remembered with Honour
From Lancaster ED864 AJ-B, buried in Reichswald Forest War Cemetery, Germany
Flight Lieutenant William ASTELL, DFC, RAFVR; Sergeant John KINNEAR, RAF; Pilot Officer Floyd Alvin WILE,
RCAF; Flying Officer Donald HOPKINSON, RAFVR; WOII Abram GARSHOWITZ, RCAF; Flight Sgt Francis
Anthony GARBAS, RCAF; Sergeant Richard BOLITHO, RAFVR
From Lancaster ED925AJ-M, buried in Rheinberg War Cemetery, Germany
Flight Lieutenant John Vere HOPGOOD, DFC and BAR, RAFVR; Sergeant Charles BRENNAN, RAFVR; Flying
Officer Kenneth EARNSHAW, RCAF; Sergeant John William MINCHIN, RAFVR; Flying Officer George Henry Ford
Goodwin GREGORY, DFM, RAFVR
From Lancaster ED937 AJ-Z, buried in Reichswald Forest War Cemetery, Germany
Squadron Leader Henry Eric MAUDSLEY, DFC, RAFVR; Sergeant John MARRIOTT, DFM, RAFVR; Flying Officer
Robert Alexander URQUHART, DFC, RCAF; Pilot Officer Michael John David FULLER, RAFVR; WOII Alden
Preston COTTAM, RCAF; Flying Officer William John TYTHERLEIGH, DFC, RAFVR; Sergeant Norman Rupert BURROWS, RAFVR
From Lancaster ED887 AJ-A, buried in Bergen General Cemetery, Netherlands
Squadron Leader Henry Melvin YOUNG, DFC and BAR, RAFVR; Sergeant David Taylor HORSFALL, RAF; Flight Sgt
Charles Walpole ROBERTS, RAFVR; Flying Officer Vincent Sandford MacCAUSLAND, RCAF; Sergeant Lawrence
William NICHOLS, RAFVR; Sergeant Gordon Arthur YEO, RAFVR; Sergeant Wilfred IBBOTSON, RAFVR
From Lancaster ED927 AJ-E, buried in Reichswald Forest War Cemetery, Germany
Flight Lieutenant Robert Norman George BARLOW, DFC, RAAF; Pilot Officer Samuel Leslie WHILLIS, RAFVR;
Flying Officer Philip Sydney BURGESS, RAFVR; Pilot Officer Alan GILLESPIE, DFM, RAFVR; Flying Officer Charles
Rowland WILLIAMS, DFC, RAAF; Flying Officer Harvey Sterling GLINZ, RCAF; Sergeant Jack Robert George
LIDDELL, RAFVR
From Lancaster ED934 AJ-K, commemorated on the Runnymede Memorial, United Kingdom
Pilot Officer Vernon William BYERS, RCAF; Sergeant Alastair James TAYLOR, RAF; Flying Officer James Herbert
WARNER, RAFVR; Pilot Officer Arthur Neville WHITAKER, RAF; Sergeant John WILKINSON, RAFVR; Sergeant
Charles McAllister JARVIE, RAFVR; and buried at Harlingen General Cemetery, Netherlands: Flight Sergeant
James McDOWELL, RCAF
From Lancaster ED865 AJ-S, buried Bergen-op-Zoom Cemetery, Netherlands
Pilot Officer Lewis Johnstone BURPEE, DFM, RCAF; Sergeant Guy PEGLER, RAF; Sergeant Thomas JAYE, RAFVR;
WOII James Lamb ARTHUR, RCAF; Pilot Officer Leonard George WELLER, RAFVR; Sergeant William Charles
Arthur LONG, RAFVR; WOII Joseph Gordon BRADY, RCAF
From Lancaster ED910 AJ-C, buried in Reichswald Forest War Cemetery, Germany
Pilot Officer Warner OTTLEY, DFC, RAFVR; Sergeant Ronald MARSDEN, DFM, RAF; Flying Officer Jack Kenneth
BARRATT, DFC, RAFVR; Flight Sergeant Thomas Barr JOHNSTON, RAFVR; Sergeant Jack GUTERMAN, DFM,
RAFVR; Sergeant Harry John STRANGE, RAFVR
TYTHERLEIGH, WILLIAM JOHN
Initials - W J
Nationality - United Kingdom
Rank - Flying Officer (Air Gnr.)
Regiment/Service - Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve
Unit Text - 617 Sqdn.
Age-21
Date of Death - 17/05/1943
Service No - 120851
Awards - D F C
Additional information - Son of A. P. and Julia Tytherleigh, of Hove, Sussex.
Casualty Type - Commonwealth War Dead
Grave/Memorial Reference - Coll. grave 5. B. 16-18.
Cemetery - REICHSWALD FOREST WAR CEMETERY
http://flickr.com/photos/20818462@N00/page2/
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Hi David
I am the neice of Woof Welford (born Albert Welford, but known to us as Uncle Wuff). He and my mother are twins (actually triplets but 3rd one died at birth, hence maybe his size as my mother is tall for a woman). He would be 88 now. He died about 6 years ago, shamefully as I was living in South Africa then I cannot exactly remember the date. However, I only came across this website last night, and I will show to my mother, who is amazingly bright and if she knows she will be able to tell us who the missing chaps in the photo are.
Regards
Jill
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Hello Jill. How exciting for me that I have found the neice of one of my father's wartime friends. If possible can you tell me your Uncle's wartime experiences after June '41?
Incidentally my father got married wearing your uncle's uniform jacket as his own was not in a good state of repair.
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Hello David,my father F/S David Craven flew a tour with 50 Sqd between Jan to Sept 1941 as a Wop/AG and must have known your Dad.I have details of all his crews and aircraft but sadl.y not his Log Book.I have only one photo of his crew at Lindholme in March 41,though he appears in a number of publications. After 50 he joined 14 0TU, then 15 Sqd flying Stirlings in early 1943 for a second tour and was awarded the DFM an completion.He died at 84,i am sure like you i miss him and his many accountsof those brave times.
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Hello there. How thrilled I was to read your posting today.
My father joined 50 Squadron from 14 OTU in July '41 and was with the squadron until March of '42. I presume your father went to 14 OTU as an instructor after the completion of his tour.
I am sure our father's must have know each other, especially as they were both WO/AG's. Looking at my father's log book I note that they did not fly as crew together but from the Orbs. I see that they both went to Cologne on 20/21 July '41.
Are you familiar with the 50/61 Squadron's site, they are not too active but I am sure you might find something of interest there. http://50-61squadron.com/default.aspx
Any further information you might have about 50 Squadron during this time frame I would be grateful to see.
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David, thank you so much for the info,I must ask how do I get copies of 50 Sqd Orbs? I would dearly like to research it?Who was your father's pilot?,Dave flew with Sgt Quinton,S/L Mulford,P/O King,and P/O Christophers during July and August 41. The photo of AE116 I have seen in The "Hampden File"by Harry Moyle 1989 Air Britain in which it is attributed to Ray Leach/Eric McCabe.The raid on Cologne 21st July must have been one of the first flown from Swinderby as the Sqd had only arrived from Lindholme on the 19 July.Dave had clear recollection of this day when the Sqd flew down to Swinderby in formation.One of the aircraft alongside them suddenly turned into an inverted position and then dived into the ground and expoded[AD897].Dave had a great loyalty to 50 Sqd and it CO Wing Commander Walker.
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So good to read your reply to my post.
As I'm sure you know the Orbs are held in the National Archives at Kew. As far as I know they are not available on line. I was fortunate that someone was able to make copies of some of the Orbs relating to my father's flights but I do not have a true accounting of all of my father's flights.
I too have Harry Moyle's "Hampden File." I have been trying to get a better picture of AE116 in which my father crash landed, so far without success.
It wasn't until I consulted my father's log book that I realized how many pilots he flew with during his time with 50 Squadron. He was piloted by, Fox, Bartley, Mudd, Lord, Banker, Beaver, Davidson, Coton,Villiers, Carter, Mulford, Packard, Helmore,Goldsmith,Baddersley and Symes. Not all of these were operational flights, some were air tests, training and ferry flights.
I believe the squadron transferred to Swinderby on July 17th of 1941. I was not aware of the fate of AD897 on that day. Like many of his colleagues my father did not discuss his war experiences much.
You are correct Gus Walker was held in high esteem by the men under his command. I am attaching some Gus Walker related material that comes from my mother's scrapbook.
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Gus Walker Christmas card.
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(http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q137/DavidLayne/50Squadron001.jpg)
This picture of 50 Squadron was taken at Skellingthorpe I believe. I would be grateful if someone can confirm that.
My father is directly below the left hand propeller hub.
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David,that's a fine photo of 50 Sqd you have posted. I have had a good look and do not think i can see my father,which would point to it being taken at Skellingthorpe as he left the 50 a few weeks before the move.Regards Bryan.
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Bryan omitted.............."It shows my fathers crew [X2919] in the Ops Room at Lindholme the morning after a trip to Hamburg 12/3/41. L/R Sgt Thompson,AG, F/L Rippingale pilot,Intelligence Officer;F/O Grant Observer,Sgt Craven A/G.The notice boards on behind can be clearly read on the original. Note the ME110 model above their heads Regards Bryan"
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Hi David, My name is Simon Welford, son of Wuff Welford. I read with interest that you are trying to find out more about 50 Squadron and some of it's aircrew. I remember my father speaking of Wally Layne with great fondness. When I saw some of the photos you have posted on this site it prompted me to search through my dad's old pictures, and guess what I have found the first picture that you are enquiring about and I think I can help you solve the puzzle of the unknown person. His name was Stew Hobson, unfortunately that is all I know about him. I will look at my father's old log book and hopefully I will be able to give you more info about my father's antics after 50 Squadron.
All the Best
Simon
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Great to hear from you Simon. I look forward to hearing more.
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David, I have looked through my fathers log book and he was with 50 Squadron at Lindholme in July 41 then went with 50 Squadron to Swinderby until August '41 when he had 6 months off due to unjuries recieved by crashing after ops on 29th August '41 fliying in Hampdens. Feb '42 he was with 50 sqd Skellingthorpe mainly in Manchesters stayed there until July then went to Swinderby and converted to Lancasters until Aug '42, Wigsley on Lanc's until Feb '43 then onto 57 Squadron Scampton until Aug '43 when he went to India until Nov '44 then changed to 276 Squadron in Belguim in '45 on Airsea Rescue on Walrus's.
If you want any more info just let me know
Simon
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David, Thought you may like to see this photo of your dad dated 1942, found it in amongst my fathers photos.
Cherrs
Simon
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Great Simon. That's my parents on their wedding day, February 15th 1942. My Father is wearing your Father's Jacket, borrowed for the day!
As my Mother was walking into St. John's Church (Grantham) 3 Hampdens from 50 Squadron buzzed the church. I wonder if your Father was one of them? My Mother was so excited she threw her bouquet into the air!
Thanks for identifying Stew Hobson for me, I wonder what became of him.
Thanks also for the update on your dad's activities after leaving 50 Squadron. He certainly got around and was obviously a 2 tour man also.
Below is a picture of their class in 14 OTU.
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Hi David, I've got the same picture but I didn't know anything about it, there is no explanation on the back. Looking in his log book I doesn't look like he was officially flying on the 15 Feb so maybe he was in one of the Hampdens.
On the 12/2/42 he was Air Gunner flying in the North Sea Attacking the Scharnhorst, Gnelsnau and Prinz Eugen and on the 16/2/42 he was W/T Operator which was his main duty flying to Scampton. Sound like they had a bash at everything!!
If I find any other photos I think you'll find interesting I'll post them for you to see.
Cheers
Simon
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Simon,so good to read of your Dad's exploits with 50 Sqd and along with David's research keep their memories alive through their Sons today! My father used to speak of your dad,referring to him as "one of the lads" as in someone who was good at his job but also enjoyed a good night out.!He was flying on the night your dad crashed in AD977 to Frankfurt and was friendly with his pilot F/S Mapp who was also injured.he also flew with a Sgt Hobson on one occasion[Dusseldorf in X3133] who I assume was the same chap you were discussing with David.
Anyway lovely to hear from you and remember these fine men without whose bravery we would not be enjoying the life today. Bryan Craven.
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Here's another one I have found. My father on left with colleague after a days rough shooting at Skellingthorpe.
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Hi Bryan, Good to hear from you, your right , without these brave guys who knows where we would be now. I sometimes wonder if I would be quite so brave if I suddenly had to go to war as these fellas did, but I guess you would just go and do it as they did. Shame we don't know more about Stew Hobson.
Keep in touch
Cheers Simon
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Hi David, Here's a picture obviously taken at the same time in the pub. not sure where Wally is though, he's either taking the picture or he's gone for the drinks. Probably the later!!. I have the same 50 squadron emblem but it has been made into a wooden shield and is on the wall in my office.
Simon
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Hi David, Here's a picture obviously taken at the same time in the pub. not sure where Wally is though, he's either taking the picture or he's gone for the drinks. Probably the later!!. I have the same 50 squadron emblem but it has been made into a wooden shield and is on the wall in my office.
Simon
From left to right. The Landladies daughter, Hobson, Welford, Tytherleigh, the Landlady and my mother.
I would imagine your shield looks like the one below.
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Snap, same shield as mine. Here's a couple more photos for you. Firstly on a Hampden Reg No VNU, secondly is the 50 squadron reunion 1954, the only manes on the back are S/LDR Brown, W/Cmdr Oxley, W/Cmdr Lloyd and F/Lt Grose
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Simon any idea who the crew members are with the aircraft?
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"Kev" from another forum has come up with the following in regards Hobson.
David.
Nice to see some progress, however small.
As I understand it, it seems all four men survived their tours with 50 Squadron with the first three named going on to start a second tour. Therefore it is likely that 'Stew' Hobson would also have gone on to a second tour.
A quick check of the CWGC website gives just two S Hobsons, but interestingly one of them is a Stuart Melbourne Hobson with a service Number of 49285. He was a Flying Officer (Air Gunner) serving with 9 Squadron at the time of his death on the 5th of April 1943.
Chorley's Bomber Command losses offers the following:
The aircraft was a Lancaster III, ED696 coded WS-T. The aircraft took off from Waddington sometime on the 4th of April 1943 to bomb Kiel. The Lancaster was shot down by a night fighter and crashed at 23.50 at Grossenaspe, 10 km south of Neumunster where the crew were buried on the 8th of April. They were later exhumed and reinterred in Hamburg War Cemetery. The crew are as follows:
F/S J H C Walsh.
Sgt. H L Jones.
P/O R E Raven.
F/O K E Fraser.
Sgt. T W Telfer RCAF.
F/O S M Hobson.
Sgt. E S Wood.
Additional information from the Lost Bombers website shows this particular aircraft to have been delivered new to the Squadron on the 2nd of March and had flown for 47 hours either at the time of it's loss or prior to taking off for the last time.
It seems that for administrative purposes the RAF declared the date of death for those lost on operations which spanned two dates (such as 4th/5th April) as the date on which the aircraft was expected to return.
It would appear that this Stuart Hobson was a mid upper gunner. As a Flight Sergeant in the photographs you have posted. I would suggest it is not inconceivable that he would have been commissioned and risen to the rank of Flying Officer by the time he was engaged on a second tour. No way of proving it but I strongly suspect that this is your man.
In addition, I have just found him on the London Gazette website. He appears on page 3710 of the London Gazette dated 25th August 1942. This mentions his promotion from Flight Sergeant to Pilot officer as of the 6th of June 1942. Page 1857 of the issue dated 23rd April 1943 shows his promotion to Flying Officer as of the 6th December 1942. By an amazing coincidence, this second entry appears on the same page as George Arthur Martin Gallop who has featured in another thread here.
In conclusion, I think the supporting evidence now is enough to show that there is an extremely strong possibility of 'Stew' Hobson being Flying Officer Stuart Melbourne Hobson.
Hope this helps.
Regards,
kev35
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Hi Bryan, Good to hear from you, your right , without these brave guys who knows where we would be now. I sometimes wonder if I would be quite so brave if I suddenly had to go to war as these fellas did, but I guess you would just go and do it as they did. Shame we don't know more about Stew Hobson.
Keep in touch
Cheers Simon
Hi to all what a great thread, This post I had to reply to. They were very brave men. I think men and women of our era(50+If we are talking of Son's Daughter's of these brave men) would have gone like a shot , and when you think of our brave men and women in Afghanistan and Iraq now I think the answer is they still do today .
Sadly the odds were much greater then. My Father flew in WWII with 158 squadron. A book was written about there Exploits, In Brave Company by W.R. (Bill) Chorley. One of the things that hits me every time I read it is the Passage by Bill Chorley which States, may it never be forgotten that well over 800 airmen from 158 Squadron ALONE gave their lives in helping to stop the advance of Nazi tyranny that threatened to sweep the whole world.
Let the generations to come remember this brave company of men and all who supported them.
I put Alone in Capitals just so people would not be put off the fact that many Squadrons lost as many men , and some even more.
To put it into perspective , since Desert Storm in 1991 Britain has lost no way near the amount of lives by One Squadron in WWII. Thankfully technology has helped in that department. Great Thread. BN
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Hi David,
With ref to the Hampden the only info I can gleem from my fathers log book is that the aircraft was AE229 Piloted by F/Sgt Mapp. My father was the Wireless operator and sitting on the cockpit, not sure which one Mapp is. This is the aircraft that crashed and was written off causing my father to have 6 months off with injuries. On the 17/8/41 they were on ops when they had to turn back to Swinderby with engine trouble and it crashed on the 29/8/41.
I'm afraid this is all I can come up with at the moment.
Cheers
Simon
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Apparently this was one of four Hampdens written off by Mapp. In addition to AE229 he was the pilot of AE394, L4120 and P4314 when they were lost.
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Just aswell my father moved onto Lancasters really!! - so tell me more about Wally's exploits during the war
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One more and he would have been an ace!
After completing his tour with 50 Squadron my father was on Lancasters with 97 Squadron. On his 64th trip and last op of his second tour he was shot down on a raid to Mannheim.
After evading for a while he ended up in various POW camps and endured the "Winter" and "Spring" Marches of the Stalag Luft 3 prisoners.
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Hi David, Interesting to read about Wally, sorry if this sounds a daft question but did he survive the marches?
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Hi David, Interesting to read about Wally, sorry if this sounds a daft question but did he survive the marches?
Yes, and passed away in 1995.
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Received this e mail about a 50 Squadron member.
It is with sadness that I have to report that Dennis Abrams DFC CdeG, passed away last Monday. Dennis formerly with 50 Squadron, was a founder member of the Association when they used to meet in the Cock Inn in London after the war. He worked tirelessly for the Association and was fundamental in establishing the Memorial rooms at Birchwood.
For those of you who might be able to, and wish to attend, His funeral will be held at the Lincoln Crematorium, Washingborough Road, Lincoln on Wednesday 25th February at 13.50. Family Flowers only. Donations to Hartsholme Primary School, Lincoln.
Should you wish to send a card, Joan Abrams address is;
1 Skipworth Crescent
Metheringham
Lincoln
LN4 3HP
Regards
Mike Connock
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Just had to leave a message to say what a great thread everyone.I read through it as I currently researching my grandfathers service in the Air force,and had hoped to see his name somewhere.
It wasnt to be,but i was touched how friends who served in troubled times were being remembered now by friends and family,who were forming new friendships [ albeit it online ] .
Thanks for sharing those wonderful snippets and fantastic photos.
tabbitha
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Hi David, I've got the same picture but I didn't know anything about it, there is no explanation on the back. Looking in his log book I doesn't look like he was officially flying on the 15 Feb so maybe he was in one of the Hampdens.
On the 12/2/42 he was Air Gunner flying in the North Sea Attacking the Scharnhorst, Gnelsnau and Prinz Eugen and on the 16/2/42 he was W/T Operator which was his main duty flying to Scampton. Sound like they had a bash at everything!!
If I find any other photos I think you'll find interesting I'll post them for you to see.
Cheers
Hello Simon,
My father, Wing Commander Charles Darwen Stenner, DSO,DFC, 43144, was flying Hampden 4414 on 12th Feb 1942, his crew were Robson, Bake and Brown, attacking the Sharnhorst. He was with 50 Sqd from 25/05/37 to 26/09/1940. I wish I could enlarge Davids photo, I cannot pick him out on that one.
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Hello Simon,
Sorry, just put brain in gear, he wasn't with 50 in 41, he was with 106, so he will not be in the picture.
Regards.
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(http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q137/DavidLayne/50Squadron001.jpg)
This picture of 50 Squadron was taken at Skellingthorpe I believe. I would be grateful if someone can confirm that.
My father is directly below the left hand propeller hub.
This photo is fascinating. My Grandmother's cousin Pilot Officer Henry(Harry) Moncrieff Owens (Service no 88012)was with 50 squadron and died 17th July 1941 aged 24 when his plane was shot down over Germany. He is commemorated at Runnymede. My late mother had a photo of him but I can't find it. I remember he was a handsome chap with a moustache wearing an officers hat. He may well be in that photo somewhere. He was Scottish.
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olisqueen wrote "This photo is fascinating. My Grandmother's cousin Pilot Officer Henry(Harry) Moncrieff Owens (Service no 88012)was with 50 squadron and died 17th July 1941 aged 24 when his plane was shot down over Germany. He is commemorated at Runnymede. My late mother had a photo of him but I can't find it. I remember he was a handsome chap with a moustache wearing an officers hat. He may well be in that photo somewhere. He was Scottish."
From the Squadron Orbs. "Aircraft AD 844 P/O Owens, P/O Mitchell, F/Sgt Russell. Sgt. Owen. This aircraft set out to bomb an aiming point at Hamburg. Two fixes were obtained by this aircraft and an I.F.F. plot made, fading out at 01.14 hours. Nothing further was heard from this aircraft."
This aircraft was "Missing Presumed Ditched."
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Followers of this thread will be interested in this 50 Squadron related thread.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,387350.0.html
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olisqueen wrote "This photo is fascinating. My Grandmother's cousin Pilot Officer Henry(Harry) Moncrieff Owens (Service no 88012)was with 50 squadron and died 17th July 1941 aged 24 when his plane was shot down over Germany. He is commemorated at Runnymede. My late mother had a photo of him but I can't find it. I remember he was a handsome chap with a moustache wearing an officers hat. He may well be in that photo somewhere. He was Scottish."
From the Squadron Orbs. "Aircraft AD 844 P/O Owens, P/O Mitchell, F/Sgt Russell. Sgt. Owen. This aircraft set out to bomb an aiming point at Hamburg. Two fixes were obtained by this aircraft and an I.F.F. plot made, fading out at 01.14 hours. Nothing further was heard from this aircraft."
This aircraft was "Missing Presumed Ditched."
thank you so much for posting this. I've tried to track down a photo of Harry Owens that used to be in my late mother's possesion but sadly can't find it. I would have been proud to have posted it here.
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New here, just discovered this fascinating thread. Some beautiful revelations so I'll try my luck. I'm searching for information about a cousin/uncle Pilot Officer Harold Moseley IVATT (J/17654), a Canadian who served with 50 Squadron, possibly as an air gunner, until his death on 13 May 1943 - recorded at the Runnymede Memorial. I have no access to any log books or anything but clearly there are some records out there - I'm hoping for the best.
My father was a Beaufighter pilot with RAAF 455, my mother a transport driver at various bases the last at Langham, Norfolk.
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Sgt H M Ivatt J17654 RCAF was lost on operations to Duisburg in thr Rhur Valley with 50 Sqd on the night of12/13 May 1943. He was flying with P/O Huntley as pilot in Lancaster W4762 when they where shot down by a night fighter at 0332.They had taken off at 2358 from Skellingthorpe, so were most likely on the return journey to base.The aircraft crashed in the Ijsselmeer 6km NW of Nijkerk,Netherlands,there were no survivors'though only Sgt Ivatt has no known grave.He is listed on the Runneymede Memorial 176. He is shown as being the W/OP on this operation,but further research would be needed to be certain of his role.His gallant crew lie buried in Amsterdam and Amesrsfoot War Graves in Holland.My father flew with 50 Sqd in 1941,then flew a second Tour of oprations with a mostly RCAF crew with 15 Sqd in 1943.They were flying in Stirling BK656(Sgt Smaile pilot) on this same night.
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Thank you Cravens for that most helpful response. I presume you have access to some Squadron records and wonder whether there is any other information there about Harold Ivatt's movements in the period before May 1943?
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An update on this thread.
I now believe that this picture was taken just after the airmen completed their course at 14 OTU in June of 1941 and just prior to them joining 50 Squadron at Lindholme.
Paul Hayter has kindly sent me the pictures I am attaching. Paul's father was with 50 Squadron on Lancasters.
This picture shows the Atkinson crew, from left to right Welford, Bailey, Atkinson and Tytherleigh.
(http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q137/DavidLayne/WelfordBaileyAtkinsonTytherleigh.jpg)
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This is a picture taken in March of 1942 and depicts Hampden AT118 C-VN. One of the aircraft the Atkinson crew operated in.
On March 26th 1942 this aircraft crashed and burned 5 miles north of Penzance after an engine failure.
S/Ldr. Jeffs and crew had been conducting an Air Sea Rescue search and all survived the crash unscathed.
(http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q137/DavidLayne/HampdenAT118C-VNMarch42.jpg)
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Regarding P/O Ivatts previous operational history I am afraid I do not have any further information,the data I have given is of course held,along with all his data at the Public Records Office at Kew(which is a long way from Canada!). Best wishes in your research.
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Thanks Cravens. For your information I'm actually writing from Australia. The info you have provided is fantastic and will allow me to get on with my little project. Thanks again.
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I have a few details concerning Sgt H M Ivatt who served in 50 Sqn during 1943 as follows:
1/2 Mar 1943 Lanc III ED.491 Bombing attack on Berlin. the crew were: Sgt F H Huntley (Pilot), Sgt C W Clarke,Sgt H M Ivatt,
Sgt E Hough, Sgt M Bates, Sgt A Stott, Sgt F C Greening
3/4 Mar 1943 Lanc III ED.491 Bombing attack on Hamburg crew as above
5/6 Mar 1943 Lanc III ED.491 Bombing attack on Essen
8/9 Mar 1943 Lanc III ED.491 Bombing attack on Nurnberg - Aiming point 'C' crew as above but (Sgt S.Cooper took the place of Sgt E Hough).
9/10 Mar 1943 Lanc III ED.491 Bombing attack on Munich crew as above but Sgt R.Goldstraw took the place of Sgt S Cooper)
11/12 Mar 1943 Lanc III ED.491 Bombing attack on Stuttgart crew as above and incl Sgt Goldstraw (More to follow)
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Continuing the post re: Sgt H M Ivatt's tour of duty with 50 Squadron:
12/13 Mar Lanc III ED.491 Bombing attack on Essen - Aiming point 'C' Crew: Sgt's Huntley, Clarke, Ivatt, Goldstraw,
Bates, Stott and Greening
8/9 Apr 1943 Lanc III ED.491 Bombing attack on Duisberg- Aiming point 'D' Crew: Sgt's Huntley, Bates, Clarke, Ivatt, Hough, Stott and Greening
9/10 Apr 1943 Lanc III ED.491 Bombing attack on Duisberg - Aiming point 'D' Crew: Sgt's Huntley, Bates, Clarke, Ivatt, Rutherford, Stott and Greening
13/14 Apr 1943 Lanc III ED.491 Gardening-Mullet Crew: Sgt's Huntley, Bates, Clarke, Ivatt, Rutherford, Fellowes, Stott and Greening
14/15 Apr 1943 Lanc III ED.491 Bombing attack on Stuttgart - Aiming point 'C' Crew: Huntley, Bates, Clarke, Ivatt, Hough, Stott, Greening and Grey
20/21 Apr 1943 Lanc III ED.491. Bombing attack on Stettin - Aiming point 'A' Crew: Huntley, Bates,Clarke,Ivatt,Hough, Stott and Greening Engaged by a fighter JU88 on outward journey - To be continued
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P/O H M Ivatt's Tour with 50 Squadron continued:
30 apr/1 May 1943 Lanc III ED 393 Bombing attack on Essen Aiming point 'C' Crew: Sgt's Huntley,Bates, Clarke,Ivatt, Stott, Hough, Greening and P/O Butler
12/13 May 1943 Lanc I W 4762 Bombing attack on Duisberg Crew: P/O Huntley DFM, Sgt's Bates, Clarke, Ivatt, Stott DFM, Hough, Greening and F/O Priestley. This a/c took off at 23.58, briefed to attack Duisberg. After take off no message was received and the a/c failed to return. Presumed missing due to enemy action.
W4762 VN- took off at 2358 from Skellingthorpe, Shot down by a night-fighter and crashed o332 in the IJsselmeer, 6 km NW of Nijkerk. There were no survivors. Three lie in Amsterdam New Eastern Cemetery; four rest at Amersfoort (Oud Leusden) General Cemetery, while P/O H M Ivatt RCAF has no known grave and is commemorated on the Runnymede memorial, panel No. 176.
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David,regarding the fine picture of Atkinson's Crew you posted, do you think it is probable that Sgt Tytherleigh
shown 1st from right,is the same F/O W J Tytherleigh DFC who was ex 50 Sqd and was lost flying as a gunner with
S/L Maudslay crew in Lancaster ED937 on 16/17 May 1943 on the "Dams Raid Operation Chastise"? There cannot
have been many crew from 50 Sqd with that surname.
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David,regarding the fine picture of Atkinson's Crew you posted, do you think it is probable that Sgt Tytherleigh
shown 1st from right,is the same F/O W J Tytherleigh DFC who was ex 50 Sqd and was lost flying as a gunner with
S/L Maudslay crew in Lancaster ED937 on 16/17 May 1943 on the "Dams Raid Operation Chastise"? There cannot
have been many crew from 50 Sqd with that surname.
Yes it is the same person. I think I made mention of it in the very first picture I posted where the airmen are in a pub yard. Welford and Tytherleigh are in that one too.
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Regarding P/O Ivatts previous operational history I am afraid I do not have any further information,the data I have given is of course held,along with all his data at the Public Records Office at Kew(which is a long way from Canada!). Best wishes in your research.
You were enquiring for information about Sgt Ivatts, please see the most recent postings on RootsChat.Com
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Hi, I have been trying to find out more about my granddads war history flying Lancasters for a while now and have just come across an old bit of writing I did about him that says he was a member of 50 squadron. This has helped me a good bit and lead me here.
Unfortunetly I dont know much more then that as understanably it wasn't something he would talk about much.
His name was Alfred Harry Plumridge and I would be very grateful if someone here would be able to give me any advice about how to find out more?
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This is a message mainly for Stenner153.
I noticed that you are the son of Sqn Ldr Charles Stenner, sometime of 106 Sqn. On the first 1000 bomber raid on 30 May 1942 your father was the pilot of a scratch crew, where the 2nd pilot was George Lancey of 97 Sqn. Up till then Lancey had been flying as 2nd pilot with Flg Off David Maltby, but he was one of the few qualified pilots excused as it was his wedding day. (Interestingly enough Guy Gibson also missed the 1000 bomber raid, as he was sick.) It seems that Lancey went to the wedding (in Kent) but left the reception early enough to get back to Coningsby for the operation. He went back to Canada after the war, and died in the 1970s, but I was sent photocopies of pages from his log book by his son.
The reason for my interest is because I am the nephew of David Maltby, who later went on to join 617 Squadron and took part in the Dams Raid in May 1943, when he dropped the bomb which caused the final breach in the Möhne Dam. Four months later he and all his crew were killed returning from an aborted mission to the Dortmund Ems Canal. I've told the whole story in my recent book, Breaking the Dams and on my website http://www.breakingthedams.com Hope this is of interest and reaches you, Stenner153!
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Charles55,
Thanks for the message - Having checked fathers log-book I can now see that the name was Lancey, his writing was not the best in the world. That was the only time they flew together.
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When I was a nipper my father used to sing the refrain from this song to me.
It used to go "No flak, no flak at all. plenty of searchlights but no flak at all.
It was sung to the tune of the Rugby song "No Balls at all."
Is anyone else familiar with it?
In the year anno domini one nine four one
Operations decide there was job to be done
Could have been Düsseldorf, Bremen or Ham?
But the laddies in 5 group did not give a damn
As they went into briefing the CO’s did call
‘there’ll be plenty of fighters but no flak at all’.
As 50 sqdn Hampdens went out to bomb Kiel
The aircrew as usual had not had its meal
and as they crossed Texel the gunner did cry
There’s a Messerschmitt fighter .. port quarter and high
They looked o’er the side .. it was easy to see
The pride of old Goering?.. the 109e
There was no sign of panic, no sign of fear,
But they took violent action in defence of the rear
From a night fighters cannon the tracers did shoot
The gunner cried out it had missed by a foot
He blazed off his Vickers, called Jerry rude names
And cheered when the Messerschmitt went down in flames.
And over the target down there below
The city was lit by a dull reddish glow.
The observer to the pilot did shout,
Open the bomb doors, let the beggars look out
He pressed the old tit and the s**** whistled down
Hurrah cried the gunner, they’re smacking the town
But the natives of Kiel took a rather dim view
And showed there are flak guns there was more than a few.
They blazed out their armament, heavy and light,
till the heavens resembled Brock’s benefit night.
Each AA’s opened up over the drink
And the crew to the observer created a stink
O get us a fix to the wops they did yell
If you don’t hurry up we will end up in hell
Fix was obtained to dm three?
As they went in to pancake they chortled with glee
Shot horrible lines to intelligence blokes
Who give air crew cheer up coffee and smokes
Here’s a moral for pilots, for gunners and wops
If you want to stay healthy don’t do any ops
And if in the next war they want you to fight
Keep your feet on the deck and sleep tight every night
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Nipper David, can you remember that far back (lol)!!
Seriously though...this is a great thread with some super photos.
Steve.
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Hi David my name is annette Morris Iam the daughter of J F Beesley I have just come across the piece on the internet about your farther and was surprised to see the photos that my dad drawred in your fathers log book.My father sadley past away three years ago.We had no knowledge of the drawings it was so nice to see them if you want to answer this email my email address is (*)
(*) Moderator Comment: e-mail removed in accordance with RootsChat policy,
to avoid spamming and other abuses.
Please use the Personal Message (PM) system for exchanging personal data.
New members must make at least three postings before being allowed to use the PM facility.
See Help-Page: http://www.rootschat.com/help/pms.php
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Hi David my name is annette Morris Iam the daughter of J F Beesley I have just come across the piece on the internet about your farther and was surprised to see the photos that my dad drawred in your fathers log book.My father sadley past away three years ago.We had no knowledge of the drawings it was so nice to see them if you want to answer this email my email address is (*)
(*) Moderator Comment: e-mail removed in accordance with RootsChat policy,
to avoid spamming and other abuses.
Please use the Personal Message (PM) system for exchanging personal data.
New members must make at least three postings before being allowed to use the PM facility.
See Help-Page: http://www.rootschat.com/help/pms.php
Thanks for removing the users e mail address. You make a good stain remover. We have been in touch privately.
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Hello Simon,
Sorry, just put brain in gear, he wasn't with 50 in 41, he was with 106, so he will not be in the picture.
Regards.
I have a pic of 106 Sqn dated March 1944 (while they were at Metheringham) that is looking for a good home. Will he be in that one?
Dee
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Hi just stumbled upon this forum, can anyone help me with any information on my father and his crew his name was DWH Little, sergeant 1398493 originally in 50 squadron at Skellingthorpe then transferred to 97 sqdn at Bourn where he was shot down and killed on his first mission for 97 sqdn.
His pilot was Carlos Brown an American . I believe he completed 14 missions with 50 sqdn but any info would be appreciated
thanks
rod
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See this thread,
http://www.rafcommands.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7332
And this newspaper article.
http://www.vancouversun.com/news/WWII+CRASH+SITE/2986251/story.html
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Yes thanks I know about both of those, I was looking for some info before he was posted to 97 sqdn as all but 1 of his missions were with 50 sqdn
cheers
rod
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Hi Rod
Try this contact (from the RAFRA list) 97 Squadron Association Hon Secretary, A Savage, 79 Willoughby Road, Boston, Lincolnshire PE21 9HN: tel 01205 361334 01205 361334 : ann.savage97 AT btinternet.com
http://www.97squadronassociation.co.uk
ACHIEVE YOUR AIM - history of 97 (Straits Settlement) Squadron in WW2
He should have an RAF record have you applied for it?
Dee
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Thanks but Im looking for information while he was on 50 aqdn I have all the info for 97 sqdn
and yes I have his service record it is extremely sparse and unhelpful
rod
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Sorry Rodl misunderstood your posting :( If there is anything on his service record you dont understand please let us know...
Dee
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There are a number of Air Combat reports here for a Sergeant Little of 50 squadron
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/airforce.asp
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Thanks for that took me quite a while to find out that you should only enter one search term though
cheers
rod
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Followers of this thread will find the 50 Squadron forum of interest.
http://squadronforum.freeforums.org/no-50-and-no-61-squadrons-association-forum-f3.html
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Hi rodl, Hope D.L does not mind me hi-jacking the post for a mo, but here is what I have found about D. Little when he was in 50 sqd. I have done this quickly apologies for that but I am about to hit the sack after work. Hope this gives you some answers. Nearly forgot, he transferred to 97 sqd on 3rd of November 43.
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Thanks Lowanslow, thats fantastic
rod
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paste
50 Squadron at Skellingthorpe
in google images
it has a lot of info
sylvia
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Hello David
I was quite thrilled to see a photograph of 'Johnnie' Tytherleigh. I am compiling a book about local (Leamington Spa) people who are worthy of being remembered, one of whom was Henry Maudslay who flew on the dam busters raid. As you say Johnnie was his front gunner in Lancaster ED937. Henry Maudslay was with 50 squadron at Skellingthorpe in 1943 and Johnnie would have crewed up with him then. I have only one photograph of Henry Maudslay, a portrait of him in civvies, he was apparently not keen on having his photograph taken. It's great to find a photograph that shows one of his crew.
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olisqueen wrote "This photo is fascinating. My Grandmother's cousin Pilot Officer Henry(Harry) Moncrieff Owens (Service no 88012)was with 50 squadron and died 17th July 1941 aged 24 when his plane was shot down over Germany. He is commemorated at Runnymede. My late mother had a photo of him but I can't find it. I remember he was a handsome chap with a moustache wearing an officers hat. He may well be in that photo somewhere. He was Scottish."
From the Squadron Orbs. "Aircraft AD 844 P/O Owens, P/O Mitchell, F/Sgt Russell. Sgt. Owen. This aircraft set out to bomb an aiming point at Hamburg. Two fixes were obtained by this aircraft and an I.F.F. plot made, fading out at 01.14 hours. Nothing further was heard from this aircraft."
This aircraft was "Missing Presumed Ditched."
thank you so much for posting this. I've tried to track down a photo of Harry Owens that used to be in my late mother's possesion but sadly can't find it. I would have been proud to have posted it here.
My name is Scott Maxwell from Edinburgh. I am the great nephew of pilot officer Harry Owens. I have a number of photos of him along with him marching with his squadron. I also have the original letter from the war office notifying my great grandmother of his loss during the attack on Hamburg. I will post these on this site very shortly.
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Look forward to seeing your posts.
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Scan of letter received by my Great grandmother informing her of her son, Pilot Officer Henry (Harry) Moncrieff Owens (Service No 88012), presumed missing after a raid on Hamburg 16th/17th July 1941. As the letter is not in pristine condition I have typed out the text below,
"Madam,
I am directed to refer to a letter from this department dated 21st July 1941, and to inform you with regret that no news has been received of your son, Pilot Officer Henry Moncrieff Owens, since he was reported missing on the night of 16/17th July, 1941.
The aircraft piloted by your son took off from Base at approximately 11pm on the 16th of July to attack a target in Hamburg. A message was received from the aircraft at approximately 12.15am saying "returning to base". At 12.35am another message was received from the aircraft, but after this no further message was received, and it was reported that communication from the aircraft had faded out. At dawn a search for the aircraft was initiated and a dinghy similar to the one carried by the missing aircraft, was seen afloat but empty. However, the dinghy sighted could not be claimed to be the one from your son's aircraft and the search was pursued.
I am to add an expression of the departments sincere sympathy with you in your great anxiety and assure you that any further news will be immediately passed to you.
I am Madam
Your Obedient Servant
Sgd E.F. Clark"
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My father F/S David Craven was flying that night to Hamburg with 50 Sqd as W/Op AG in Hampden X2991 pilot Sgt Quinton.I would be delighted to see your photo's when posted.
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As promised here are pictures of Pilot Officer Harry Moncrieff Owens (service no 88012).
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Flight Sergeant Harry Owens
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Flight Sergeant Harry Owens (centre) marching with his squadron?
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Here are further pictures of Pilot Officer Harry Moncrieff Owens (service no 88012). The group photo is marked on the reverse as "No 21 course No 14 OTU Cottesmore 4/1/41". Harry is in the third row from the front on the extreme right. The photo of him standing with a friend is marked "Harold & I, Brighton"
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olisqueen wrote "This photo is fascinating. My Grandmother's cousin Pilot Officer Henry(Harry) Moncrieff Owens (Service no 88012)was with 50 squadron and died 17th July 1941 aged 24 when his plane was shot down over Germany. He is commemorated at Runnymede. My late mother had a photo of him but I can't find it. I remember he was a handsome chap with a moustache wearing an officers hat. He may well be in that photo somewhere. He was Scottish."
From the Squadron Orbs. "Aircraft AD 844 P/O Owens, P/O Mitchell, F/Sgt Russell. Sgt. Owen. This aircraft set out to bomb an aiming point at Hamburg. Two fixes were obtained by this aircraft and an I.F.F. plot made, fading out at 01.14 hours. Nothing further was heard from this aircraft."
This aircraft was "Missing Presumed Ditched."
Hello David, I've just managed to join this group . Harry Owens was my uncle and I'm sure that I can fill many gaps in your knowledge about him. I, of course, would like to fill my gaps.
I don't know where we go from here but please try to get back to me.
Regards
Flying Scot
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Flying Scot, can I send you a private message about Harry Owens. It was my comment you quoted not David's.
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Hi olisqueen, feel free. I'll read whatever is offered if I can work out how to access it.
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Hi Flying Scot - Welcome to Rootschat ;D
You will need to make THREE posts before you can use the PM system to send or receive messages.
If you reply to this one then that will be your three and you can get going ;)
Milly
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Hi Milly,
Thanks for keeping me right. I'm still finding my feet here.
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Flying Scot, can I send you a private message about Harry Owens. It was my comment you quoted not David's.
Have you sent me the PM yet and if you have, how do I access it?
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Flying Scot, can I send you a private message about Harry Owens. It was my comment you quoted not David's.
Have you sent me the PM yet and if you have, how do I access it?
Sorry, I haven't sent it yet. I need to look at my family tree to refresh my memory. You should receive an email notifying you of private messages.
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I wait with bated breath.
How about telling me about you till you have your research done?
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just sent you a message :)