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General => Armed Forces => Topic started by: scoobeuk on Sunday 25 May 08 11:06 BST (UK)
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I wonder if anyone can give me any clues to find some more details of Gt Gt Grandfather.
He was born Henry JOHNSON 10 Jun 1847 in Westminster. There is only one census I can see him on, 1871, where he is a sapper in the Royal Engineers stationed at Dover Castle. He started in 10th Company, and in 1872 moved to 43rd company.
I have his service records, No 9728, enlisted June 1868, discharged June 1879, suffering Dementia (Suicidal) in a medical report dated June 1878. I can't decipher everything it has on the report, but his condition appears to have been thought permanent, and that he wouldn't be able to support himself, and that the condition had been brought about due to the heat of the sun in India.
I have census's for his wife in 1881 (Middlesex), 1891, 1901 (Both Salford Lancs), and she listed on each of them as Married. By Feb 1906, he is listed as deceased on his daughters marriage certificate, but he never appears on any of the census's.
I found a tree on Ancestry that included Henry, and had him dying in Military Asylum, date unknown. I contacted the tree owner, but they didn't know where they got that information from, and I haven't found him on any other tree sites.
He isn't buried with his wife, as I have the grave record for her.
Also, unless there were some shenanigans going on (!) he had a daughter born in Middlesex Nov 1879, and a son born in Salford in 1883
I would like to find just where he was 1881, 1891, 1901, and when/where he died.
I have looked extensively thru the census's, and I can't find anything, I'm hoping that someone might know which hospital/institution its likely he would have ended up in?
Any suggestions gratefully received.
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Hi scoobeuk,
I did an escort to a hospital in Surrey back in the 50's with a (supposed?) mental case, the hospital was a civilian one and old enough to have catered for your case but I don't know how long the Army had been using it.
Otherwise I can only suggest trawling all asylums in and around London to see if you can find him.
Ray
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Hello scoobeuk,
According to the link below, assuming he was treated prior to discharge, it would have been at Netley or Great Yarmouth. Is there any indication on his discharge/ medical papers of where he was at the time?
http://www.qaranc.co.uk/netleyhospital.php
Phil
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Or alternatively,
The first military hospital in Aldershot was situated near the Garrison Church and opposite the eventual site for the CMH. It treated mentally ill and soldiers with infectious diseases.
The Union Hospital became the second army hospital in Aldershot. It was built at South Camp, behind Salamanca barracks in the 1860s. It was originally a private residence, a poor house and a pauper house. The Union hospital was restricted to treat 16 patients.
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From what I can make out the intended place of residence is "12 months in Bow"., and looking again at the records, one of them is regimental board proceeding, dated 20 Dec 1877, which someone has written accross the top of "to Bow 27/5/78" which preceedes by a few weeks his actual discharge. I can't make out where the regimental hearing took place, its something like Kirkel.
His wife and new daughter were living at 2 Gawthorne Street, Bow in Mar 1881
RG11 489 123 53.
I'll take a look at that link you posted, thank you so much for looking at this.
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I just looked, and he isn't at Aldershot Hospital in 1881.
I have previously trawled thru the census's, looking for H Johnson, Henry Johnson, 5 years either side of birth, not using a birth place. Checked Inmate, Patient, Lodger, Military, Institutional etc. And I've just done that again on 1881 to make sure I'm not going mad (It must be in the genes...).
Which then only leaves mistransciptions, hence any suggestions of where he might be so I can just look at all the records for that institution.
One thing I had't spotted under my nose is there was an asylum in Bow, so I'm off to see if I can find the census for it.
Is it likely that after a few months treatment the Army would wash their hands, and he would end up in a civilian asylum?
Many thanks for your help
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Well I found Groves Hall Asylum in Bow, there is H Johnson, but birthplace just England, and the birth date is about 8 years out.
However, there are so many many soldiers in the Asylum, I guess at least thats what was meant by 12 months in Bow.
It took me around 2 years to find out what I did about him, maybe he's going to remain elusive to the end.
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You may want to have a read through this thread...
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,291090.msg1740770.html#msg1740770
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Thank you for the link, I shouldn't have been flippant about madness in the family, as I had thought as much.
And looking at the list of soldiers in the Grove Hall Lunatic Asylum in 1881 today was very, well, sad. Its just not possible that they were all "insane", and there were pages and pages of them. Even sadder was looking at the 1891 census for the Asylum, where they didn't even bother with names, virtually everyone is noted by initials only, not a great deal of respect.
There are two possible deaths for my Henry Johnson in Poplar that I has seen today, so I'm going to see if I can find the whereabouts of the records of the asylum. City of London website isn't playing ball for me tho today.
Of course, if he did die in Poplar (Bow), it means my Gt Gt Grandmother moved away to Salford and left him to it, so I kindof hope this particular line of inquiry proves to be wrong. But, just writing all the details out on my original post actually made it more clear where I should be looking. I'm not sure I will ever find the details, as, if some stranger was the person to notify the death, there isn't much chance of the death certificate having any meaningful details to identify what is a very common name unfortunately.
I do know he was never spoken of in the family, it was spoken that my Gt Gt Grandmother spent time in India, nothing about him, and that only started to make sense when I found the military record, and the overseas shipboard birth of one of my Gt Grans sibling, in the Gulf Of Suez, and Gt Gt Grandfather serving in India, obviously taking his wife with him, hence the exotic birth.
And of course, its too late to speak to the people who might have actually known the truth, but I guess thats often the case.
Thanks again for the link, gives some perspective.
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The birth of the son in 1883 might give you some clues.
Certainly if you look on the turn of the century maps at booth.lse.ac.uk, you'll see Gawthorne Street (no longer there) was near Fairfield Road, and very near the Asylum (on Fairfield Road). So his wife seems to have been staying near, at least originally; were there relatives in Salford who she might have been going to be near (maybe short on money - even if she was getting something from the army, it wouldn't have been a great deal).
I don't know if there are specific records for Grove Hall, but on the LMA website I can find records from Poplar Board of Guardians - POBG/165/01 and POBG/165/02 are registers of lunatics in asylums that cover some years when he would have been in Bow. POBG/155/02 and POBG/155/03 are copies of 'lunatic reception orders' from Bow district around the time that Henry Johnson might have been transferred into the area. These would be original records, not microfilmed, so if you or somebody else goes to LMA to take a look you should ring ahead to check they have these on site and that they are able to be viewed. They might be able to advise you on other records.
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Thank you so much for those details, thats really helpful.
As for Salford, one of my Gt Gt Granmothers sisters married a pendleton man late in 1871. Can't find either of them early in 1871, but I have been told there was an army base near the birth place in Kent, so that might explain them meeting. Doesn't look like "money", husband was French Polisher in 1881, one other sister was living with them, then my gt gt gran also turns up in salford, leaving parents and other siblings back in Kent.
There was plentiful work in Salford at the time, and the Kent family was very poor, (Gt Gt Gt Grandmother was an outdoor pauper at the end of her life, and died in the workhouse, just shy of being 80) so I can understand one sister following to Salford, and I guess even if there was work in London at the time, with none of her family there (both Henrys parents were dead by then, but, his siblings were doing very nicely), work would be difficult with small children in tow. Still seems so sad to leave the husband behind in that state, but, different times I guess, none of the help we take for granted now.
Anyway, many many thanks for that info, London Archives seem to be back online, so I'll contact them about using their research service to get the records, too far away for me to do in person, and of everyone in my tree, my gt gt grandad has intrigued me the most, maybe because he has been so elusive for so long, when everyone else was so relatively easy to find, and the more I find out about him, the more I'm intrigued.
Thank you so much, I'm nearer now than I've ever been to getting the answers to what happened to him, I hope, touch wood etc etc!