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General => Armed Forces => World War Two => Topic started by: petey22 on Saturday 24 May 08 20:54 BST (UK)
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hi all,
maybe a silly question, but during the second world war, my grandfather ( Henry Philip Rogers ) was in the fire brigade, would this have been seen as military service and would there be a service record for him ? My grandfather also boxed for the fire brigade and won quite a few cups, not sure if this is of any insignificance ?
I would appreciate any help in this
all the best
Pete Rogers
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Generally it was the National Fire Service during the war . You don't give a location but there may be local records which have been compiled say " The History of X Fire Brigade. News papers for the area may also provide an answer
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Hi there
the area was hendon Middx, and I have heard that he was called into central London for the blitz,,, I'll do some googleing,, thanks for the advice
Pete
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Hello again Pete,
Is Hendon within the London Metropolitan area?
If he was in the LFB at the time of the formation of the National Fire Service, he may be recorded in catalogue series LCC/FB/STA/3 at the London Metropolitan Archives. (I found it through A2A)
I believe the NFS was under Home Office control, so any records would probably be at TNA. There are 189 hits, but they seem to be mostly administrative.
My grandfather was in the NFS and I recently picked up a photo of our local brigade (a village in Sussex), by a local photographer, on ebay. Unfortunately my grandfather missed the photo-session :'(
His WW1 service record was destroyed as well, so I'm not having much luck.
Phil
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Hi again Phil,
What a coincidence we both have a Grandfather in the NFS, I did hear that the ' Home Service's during the War was seen as no different as to the forces ?? not too sure about it though.
Yes, e-bay can produce some interesting items, shame your Grandfather wasn't on the photo.
Looks like the LMA is down for maintenance :-\, I'll try again this evening/tommorrow. I tried searching on the TNA but got no hits ? I tried with Henry Philip Rogers and NFS then without, then with date,,, ??? How did you search ? I thought I'd look through the 189 hits that you got and hope that one was good.
all the best
Pete
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Hello Pete,
Apparently he was quite upset at missing out on the photo.
Add to that that his farm buildings were burnt down (accidently) by Canadian troops billeted there and the fire station was burnt down (bomb strike, I believe) and you begin to wonder. :)
I put National Fire Service into the search. The TNA search engine is a bit touchy.
Phil
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Just a bit extra - in the country the firemen were civvies, often doing a day job as well as their work with the fire service. They were called in to fires in nearby towns as they were needed - for example the brigade from High Wycombe went in to London & their duties were then covered by brigades from Oxfordshire.
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hi all
found this link to the London Fire Brigade :
http://www.london-fire.gov.uk/about_us/our_history/your_history.asp
they offer (since April 2008 ) a search for War time service records, I've applied and am awaiting a reply and will let you know the results.
This link will take you to a large photo achive of the LFB, worth a sort through, you never know,,,,,
http://www.lfbphotos.com/assetbank-lfb/action/browseItems?categoryId=157&categoryTypeId=1&allCats=0&page=9&pageSize=15
( hi Moderator, hope posting these links is OK )
all the best
Pete Rogers
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Well done good luck
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Pete ,if you relative was an auxillary fireman like my Dad ,them up there destroyed the records.I asked the chap at WDYTYA from the National Archives last year and apparently the Home Office in it's wisdom destroyed a lot of the WWII records!
Barb
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Hi all
I received a reply to my inquire,,,,apparently the Womble/Hendon areas were outside the London border during WW II and fell under the Midlesex Fire Brigade (which no longer exists ) well this is the reply ;
We have now checked our records and unfortunately have no information on your grandfather Henry Philip Rogers.
This is because during the war years Wembley and Hendon were outside the London border. It fell under the Middlesex Fire Brigade (which no longer exists) therefore we would not hold any records of him at all. I should point out that during the war, there used to be what they called "parish stations" which were very small fire stations set up in all areas to complement the existing fire stations( it was known as the Auxiliary Fire service). The National Fire service was set up after a decision was made that the fire service should be operated by the government on a national basis. It was thus created on 18th August, 1941. During this time, fire forces were divided into a number of divisions and sub-divisions both for command and mobilizing purposes. Please note that it was also set up to accommodate the Auxiliary Fire Service( AFS).
In the war years, the fire service fell under the jurisdiction of the London County Council therefore staff records for these stations were held by Borough Councils. When the greater London council replaced the London county council from the 1st April 1965 and became the fire authority, most of there records were sent to archive centres and libraries. As a result of this, records received from stations such as these are minimal and incomplete.
Old records for the above stations would have been kept at there headquarters but as the Middlesex fire brigade is no more, you'll have to contact the London Metropolitan Archives.
Well, I have contacted the LMA and am awaiting a reply, hope that the records still exist, maybe the Hendon Library have some records, I must check that out, I believe that Hendon also has a museum which may also be of help, think I'll look for a local research/history group at Hendon.
Anyway, just posted this as it shows the London Fire Brigade site is good and deliver a good reply to any enquirer.
all the best
Pete Rogers ::)
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hi again
well not having much luck with this ??? This was my reply to my LMA inquiry ;
Dear Mr Rogers Thank you for your email of 02/06/2008. LMA holds records from both the Middlesex County Council and the London County Council but unfortunately no personnel records survive for firefighters for the Second World Ward. We are sorry that we are unable to be of more assistance to you on this occasion. Yours Sincerely,,,,,,
well, guess I need to have a good rethink, maybe any records that there may have been just aren't around anymore ?
all the best
Pete
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Hi
I don't know if this would help, but my grandfather was in the AFS then it merged with the NFS in the early 40's, he was stationed at Bethnal Green Fire Station which was also known as '30 Bethnal Green', East London E2 where he served until the end of the war.
My Grandfather was Henry (Harry) Ackland who joined the AFS full time on the 24/08/1939, Class 'B' AFS number 18393.
My Grandfather wasn't the one to talk about his experiences apart from the fact that he was buried alive for several hours before being rescued and after losing several of his
fellow fireman to falling buildings. He covered most of the East/ West End especially the Docks, after narrowly escaping death on several occasions tackling fires he had to contend
with UXB's (Unexploded Bombs).
Luckily my Mother kept her fathers Fire Station Information....you can look up information by writing to the LFCDA..London Fire Civil Defense Authority at Albert Embankment, London SE1 7SD.
If you need any AFS or NFS badges then I suggest this site...http://www.divpatch.com/page10.htm
Hope this helped or if anyone knows anyone who served at the same station during the war I'll be interested in hearing from them.
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The director Humphrey Jennings produced a 1943 documentary film, "Fires Were Started" (aka "I Was a Fireman"). This is a wonderful evocation of life in a London fire station during the 1940/41 Blitz.
For anyone interested in the AFS/NFS this is well worth digging out. It's available on DVD and has appeared in the past on satellite.
Chris
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Hi Pels 66 and welcome to RootsChat ! :)
I wonder if you Granddad was involved with this rescue .....
http://www.crowddynamics.com/Disasters/Bethnal%20Green.htm
Also there's a memorial at Highgate Cemetery for the Fire Brigade .... just in case anybody has a relative mentioned there !
http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=3453
Thank you for posting the research information ... somebody will find that handy I'm sure !!
Thanks for the DVD suggestion Chris ... worth a shot !!
Annie :)
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Hi Annie
Yes he was involved in the rescue, being so close to the Station he was there in minutes.
I have have added my Grandfather to the Stairway to heaven memorial website.
Below is a Direct Link to his page, theres a small description of what it was like and theres a pic of him in his AFS uniform.
http://www.stairwaytoheavenmemorial.org/Henry_Ackland.html
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Thats very nice Pels 66 !!
Lovely way to commemorate your Granddad ... thanks for letting us share !
Annie :)
PS ... Nice picture !! :D